03:36:52 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5261-gd9800d219b 06:45:00 New branch created: pull/5410 (3 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/5410 06:45:01 03Brian Power02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/5410 * 0.35-a0-1000-gc3f55367b8: Externalise most remaining hint messages 10(2 hours ago, 2 files, 750+ 576-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c3f55367b8a6 06:45:01 03Brian Power02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/5410 * 0.35-a0-1001-gc8d2314e5b: Externalise HINT_LOAD_SAVED_GAME 10(33 minutes ago, 2 files, 30+ 34-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c8d2314e5bce 06:45:01 03Brian Power02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/5410 * 0.35-a0-1002-g53bf4a6dca: Fix a couple of hints messages 10(15 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/53bf4a6dca0b 08:00:00 <08nicolae> just out of curiosity, is there a timeline at all for wrapping up this version, i assume not but i haven't been totally on the ball re: dev chat 08:00:12 <08nicolae> i got some vaults i've been working on, also at some point i want to touch up the existing shops a skosh 08:00:49 <08nicolae> on the upside, my issues regarding being Tired All The God Damned Time seem to have a solution in sight so hopefully within the next few weeks i will have my brain back 08:24:37 <04dracoomega> A problem with which I also relate to deeply these days, I'm afraid >.> Anyway, the timeline for this version is finishing up the two new backgrounds (large amounts of work already done, though still some more to go), then some Kiku changes (which should be quicker than the background stuff was) and Index's planned Xom changes. Which... okay, it's a little hard to tell exactly how long this will all take these days, but those are 08:24:37 the specific goals before freeze. Might be safe to say a month? 08:59:44 <11Odds> (If there’s anything that would be useful to help out with, happy to do so!) 09:04:43 <08nicolae> new backgrounds? :O 09:08:05 <04dracoomega> Two new talisman-using backgrounds, one a mage (Mystic) and another a sort of stabber (Stalker). 09:10:59 <08nicolae> neateaux 09:11:09 <08nicolae> will they replace the existing shifter or go with it 09:11:28 <04dracoomega> I appreciate the offer! But I'm not certain how much of it is easy to delegate - a majority of the time spent on it is wrangling with the design moreso than the implementation. (And the design is often iterative while doing the implementation, such that I can't necessarily frame the details of the task until it's already half-done.). There might be some Xom things, but I'll have to ask Index when she's around. (I know you did the 09:11:29 boredom removal that's been waiting for ages on the other parts, but she's been kind of spread thin lately herself, unfortunately.) 09:11:40 <04dracoomega> Additions 09:14:55 <11Odds> Makes sense, and yeah ofc design and implementation are deeply entangled 09:15:17 <04dracoomega> Oh, there is one thing that comes to mind now. I've wanted talismans to be able to come with plusses (which count as a direct bonus/penalty to your effective shapeshifting skill while wearing one.) and one of the backgrounds is planned to have some plusses on one of their starting talismans. This one is probably pretty straightforward, even if it has to touch a number of places. 09:15:51 <04dracoomega> If that's anything you'd be interested in taking a stab at 09:16:15 <11Odds> Still using the existing cap for a talisman presumably, so it doesn’t change the range of what a talisman can do? 09:17:01 <04dracoomega> Yes. Think of it as shifting the min/max of the talisman some points in a given direction 09:17:01 <11Odds> Yeah I can have a go at that for sure 09:17:12 <04dracoomega> Thanks 09:17:54 <04dracoomega> (I've wanted this as a possible variation aspect of talismans for a while, but in particular here, I think it might be helpful to make a tier 2 talisman a little more accessible to the starting background without making it easier for everyone else who finds it later.) 09:19:45 <04dracoomega> (I'm slightly iffy on now calling every ordinary talisman 'a +0 granite talisman' though, since plusses will be pretty uncommon in general. I wonder if it's okay to only state a plus/malus if it has one and not otherwise. Or do you think that would confuse people?) 09:30:22 <11Odds> I don’t think it will confuse people, was thinking the same if it’s rareish 09:31:03 <11Odds> (I like the idea of plusses smoothing some progression curves a bit) 09:34:42 it might hang on even for normal stuff just because in the old days pluses weren't identified until they were equipped? 09:38:26 <04dracoomega> Oh, perhaps that did influence it 09:39:36 <04dracoomega> (I think it still makes sense for weapons and armour anyway, though, since it's a number that is very regularly modified. But these talismans will generally not be modifiable at all. They are what they are.) 10:24:50 <09hellmonk> what +/- range were you thinking they would have? 10:26:37 <08nicolae> +20 to -20 10:28:04 <04dracoomega> Maybe -2/+3 (though again, I figure the significant majority are +0, and the further enchanted ones are probably increasingly less likely.) 10:28:26 <09hellmonk> ok, that makes sense to me, was going to suggest +/-3 10:28:37 <04dracoomega> Randart ones with a malus could pick up another positive artprop or something 10:30:25 have to admit I was just wondering if an artprop would be better, and possibly being a randart (since it's supposed to be rare anyway) is a good idea 10:30:46 I mean do you want enchant scrolls to be relevant? 10:31:30 <04dracoomega> I wasn't intending them to be player enchantable 10:31:41 <09hellmonk> I guess it is worth wondering if players will think they can be enchant armoured (since you wear them now) 10:32:09 <11Odds> They might think that briefly but they'll work it out soon enough 🙂 10:32:12 <04dracoomega> I mean, you put them on with the same command as jewellery and nobody thinks you can enchant rings of slaying 10:32:20 <04dracoomega> Even if they also have plusses 10:32:59 <11Odds> Certainly doesn't seem surprising that you can't enchant them 10:37:46 <04dracoomega> I was also thinking I'd nerf Wildshape a little at the same time. Like, I was okay with allowing it to be 'too strong' in the role it has since it was encouragement for people to actually use higher level forms (which is interesting). Certainly far more interesting than wearing an amulet of regen in its place. But the more other support there is for this (both in terms of a more forms applicable to more different characters and 10:37:47 the boost from talisman plusses), the more I feel that the high end of it could maybe be dialed back a little. The thing is that '+5 skill' is very clearly described, but also has a vastly higher effect on high tier forms than it does low tier forms. Wearing a tier 2 form 5 levels early is worth 1500 skill points, Wearing a tier 4 form 5 levels early is worth 4500 skill points (ie: 3 times as much), and it only goes up from there. So even if a bit 10:37:47 more opaque, I think I'd like to make the bonus based on skill points instead of levels, so that the power of the bonus remains more similar at each tier (ie: still worth it, but not quite as wild as high levels) 10:38:09 <04dracoomega> (It can probably say that it raises skill by 'Up to X levels' instead of 'By X levels') 10:42:46 <11Odds> That makes a lot of sense to me... I think wildshape is super powerful at the moment for 12->17 and higher in particular 10:43:43 <04dracoomega> Yeah 10:44:18 <04dracoomega> (I do want it to still be very good at what it does, since forms are fun and encouraging people to use them is good, imo. But it still would be even if that end was dialed down a little.) 10:44:27 <08wormsofcan> it's powerful but also lots of characters don't necessarily use a 12 skill+ form 10:45:04 <08wormsofcan> the most build agnostic talisman is blade and that's only useful if you have good melee 10:45:30 <08wormsofcan> maybe vampire is popular 10:45:31 <04dracoomega> 'have good melee' is probably one of the non-exclusive qualifiers 10:47:25 <04dracoomega> (I mean, you're not wrong in that this is already not an item everyone wants to wear, but I do think it's common to want to wear it) 10:47:51 <11Odds> (I think vampire is a bit of a trap if you are using it without a build it works for) 10:48:13 <08wormsofcan> depends on how much the player values in battle regen 10:48:17 <11Odds> Had my first very nice vampire game the other day, but you do in fact have to be quite stabby to justify the investment IMO 10:50:31 <04dracoomega> Funnily enough, my last game using vampire form seriously was with Oka and only realized the anti-synergy after I'd trained for it (and still found it pretty good, tbh) 10:50:32 <08wormsofcan> also I guess the qualifier for has good melee is more like, your primary offense is melee 10:51:26 <08wormsofcan> I had an character with a +9 quickblade and considered the blade talisman but then I realized I was just sacrificing some AC for better melee when most of my damage is from range 10:51:26 <04dracoomega> (And if it can feel that decent without any thralls, it surely must be pretty good with them) 10:52:23 <04dracoomega> Stalker might help a little with characters that would want to end up using vampire form (though admittedly there's still no tier 3 in that niche yet, and I don't have a specific one designed to be added in this version) 10:53:01 <08wormsofcan> isn't spider form the tier 3 stabbing talisman? 10:54:51 <08wormsofcan> I guess it's not a short blade stabby form specifically 10:56:41 <04dracoomega> Yeah, it's in a slightly odd space. (People do seem to consider it pretty strong, but it's definitely a little more niche) 10:56:43 <08o____0> !lg * !cat !op !po !re-- !mu !gn recent won urune<=5 / fifsk~~shape 10:56:47 <04Cerebot> 2368/14294 games for * (!cat !op !po !re-- !mu !gn recent won urune<=5): N=2368/14294 (16.57%) 10:57:39 <08o____0> (excluding cat and op who basically always want to shapeshift, undead species that can't shapeshift, and gn who trains everything so we can't tell if they are investing big in shapeshift) 10:58:39 03Hellmonk02 {GitHub} 07* 0.35-a0-1008-geb90d4d051: Rework resonance ego. (#4940) 10(46 seconds ago, 3 files, 26+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/eb90d4d051df 10:59:01 <08o____0> I do feel wildshape is overtuned a bit too heh (but on the other hand I want to get the skill natuarlly asap so I can wear another amulet heh) 11:00:10 <08wormsofcan> wildshape could probably be knocked down to 3 or 4 since finding it lets you use a bunch of stuff out of the box 11:00:12 <11Odds> On many talismans wildshape from min to min+5 is still excellent 11:00:20 <08o____0> actually wildshape might be throwing off fifsk now that I think about it.... Should check the tournament win morgues 11:01:04 <08o____0> Yeah talismans usually scale well past their min requirement 11:03:31 <04dracoomega> I don't actually think +5 is actually too strong at low skill levels, is the thing. It's just an inherent property that each level of skill is much more expensive the higher the skill is. (Even Ash's skill boost doesn't give a flat amount of levels, but is based on skill points) 11:03:40 <04dracoomega> And that merely reducing the number doesn't actually change that dynamic 11:04:28 <09hellmonk> does the % xp you're saving actually improve as the game goes on though 11:04:35 <09hellmonk> I think that matters a lot more than raw xp number 11:05:01 <04dracoomega> Does it, though? 11:05:33 <04dracoomega> (Manuals work with skill points instead of levels also) 11:05:39 <09hellmonk> I mean, yes? An item that saves 5% skill xp lategame is doing a lot less than one that saves 20% of my skill xp earlygame, but the raw xp saved is way higher 11:06:34 <09hellmonk> I'm fine with nerfing it in any case though, if it's too strong 11:06:43 <09hellmonk> though I think amulet is a very competitive item slot 11:09:23 <04dracoomega> I am not certain I agree? The utility of 'X XP' as it converts to some other flat value always gets better the higher X is, doesn't it? 4500 skill points invested into dodging instead = more EV than 1500 skill points invested in dodging instead, and this number doesn't really depend on what percentage of the game it took to get it, does it? (And many of the other amulets are giving flat amounts of these other things.) (I'm not 11:09:23 trying to be contrary, but rather wrap my head around the perspective.) 11:13:55 <09hellmonk> the marginal value of 4500 more skill xp at xl27 is much less than 1500 more skill xp at xl9, because you've gotten things in order of how much marginal benefit they give you, and skill level costs increase while their utility (typically) decreases. 11:14:35 <09hellmonk> taking dodging from 25-27 skill does less for your character than taking weapon from 5 skill to 12 or whatever 11:16:25 <04dracoomega> So is the perspective here that "Yes, it's worth more XP at high skill, but probably whatever else you'd put it in would also be at higher skill and thus that XP is worth less"? 11:17:03 <08wormsofcan> yeah the biggest bump from a wildshape talisman is moving to the next talisman tier, so there's a tradeoff of "do I train 5 skill to reach the next talisman tier" or invest the xp I'd spend for that in something else 11:18:07 <08o____0> (it looks like in the 1326 0.34 t wins 92 finished with a wildshape amulet and 356 had shapeshifting as a fifsk) 11:19:26 <09hellmonk> I think potion of experience might be a good comparison. As I recall, the amount of skill xp it gives strictly increases with your xl, but it obviously provides much less skill xp value as the game goes on. 11:19:49 <09hellmonk> maybe the way skill xp falls off with level makes that analogy not work? Don't remember the mechanics 11:20:43 <04dracoomega> Actually, I have wanted to change XP potion formula for ages and just hadn't settled on numbers. (I think it's wildly too good really early and too irrelevant later on. I actually made a big chart of it) 11:20:59 <04dracoomega> Let me see if I can find it again... 11:22:48 <09hellmonk> I am still fine with changing the numbers on wildshape if you decide to. Especially with more shapeshifting stuff getting added, it might become "too broad" to stay at the current numbers. 11:22:59 <11Odds> Oh yeah I kinda meant to propose new numbers for this some time 11:23:18 <11Odds> The current thing is just obviously silly IMO 11:24:31 <04dracoomega> Assuming I have read my old chart right, this is how much raw XP an !xp potion is equivalent to at a given level (relative to the total XP the player has earned up to that point without it) Xl Percentage of total XP 2 15000 3 7500 4 4285.71428571429 5 2678.57142857143 6 1666.66666666667 7 1009.61538461538 8 594.059405940594 9 340.909090909091 10 191.815856777494 11:24:31 11 106.314432989691 12 58.252427184466 13 33.6206896551724 14 21.6494845360825 15 15.2027027027027 16 11.3744075829384 17 8.91608391608392 18 7.23860589812333 19 6.03813559322034 20 5.14579759862779 21 4.46175637393768 22 3.92390011890606 23 3.4919028340081 24 3.1386224934612 25 2.84522003034901 26 2.59826782145237 27 2.38797169811321 11:28:25 <04dracoomega> As in 'How much XP would you need to earn to get as many skill points as the potion just gave you' 11:28:25 <09hellmonk> 15,000 omegalul 11:28:25 <11Odds> My naive assumption before I noticed it obviously wasn't true was that a potion of XP would give you the skills and experience of gaining the next level "normally" 11:28:25 <04dracoomega> Yeah, not even slightly close, it turns out 11:28:25 <11Odds> I wonder if the naive thing would actually be fine? 11:28:25 <04dracoomega> (I am not sure that is like... the ideal target for it either, though it's an intuitive assumption) 11:28:25 <04dracoomega> I feel like that is probably too weak early and too good late, but I'd really want to take a closer look again 11:28:25 <04dracoomega> Like, I am fine with a very early XP potion feeling like a big windfall 11:28:25 <04dracoomega> But uh... 11:28:25 <04dracoomega> This is really, really big 11:28:25 <11Odds> I guess I don't really want people saving them up 11:28:25 <04dracoomega> I feel like there might actually some mildly interesting tension in them being worth more later (in a vaccum) but being worth more now because everything is worth more immediately 11:28:25 <04dracoomega> Such that if you're already in a good place for the moment, saving them a little bit might actually make sense 11:28:25 <04dracoomega> (And if you're not, you obviously drink immediately) 11:28:25 <11Odds> If they were the naive version.... I'd probably always quaff them immediately (if there were also no integer level breakpoints) 11:28:25 <08wormsofcan> the new tech is saving xp potions as tactical divine vigours 11:29:11 <08wormsofcan> what's the order if you drink xp at full health and put everything in fighting 11:29:47 <08wormsofcan> do you jump to the new mhp or just the mhp you would have had before training fighting 11:33:36 <04dracoomega> Both. (Er, you can actually see it jump twice, if there are --more--s at the right time, but you remain at full HP) 11:33:36 <04dracoomega> (I recall calculating the data in this chart was actually fairly complicated, due to how skill cost level works.) 11:33:36 <04dracoomega> It does also have the weird side-effect where you earn skill points slower after quaffing it than you would otherwise at that XL (which makes things like clearing draining slower) 11:35:44 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 11:40:03 <08o____0> So if I drink it at XL11 I am ~doubling my skillxp? 11:40:19 <04dracoomega> I believe so, yes 11:42:25 <11Odds> For talismans with +s, I wonder if the way the game explains it should be to adjust the min/max skill for the talisman? Might be simpler to explain than "this changes your shapeshifting skill while you wear it" 11:43:13 <04dracoomega> Yes, I was leaning that way, UI-wise 11:43:49 <04dracoomega> So that the talisman table can still say your real skill, but have it nicely between the effective min/max of the talisman you're looking at 11:43:53 <11Odds> Yeah 11:44:50 <11Odds> Easier for the player to keep track of their actual skill for other talismans/baubles that way 11:46:10 03hellmonk02 07* 0.35-a0-1009-g84f4f25784: Apply crab form bonus to resonance and command 10(5 minutes ago, 2 files, 18+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/84f4f25784fe 11:47:36 <09hellmonk> one last call for ideas for reworking death ego, really want that in this version 12:03:32 <09hellmonk> worst case I will just turn it into command 2 as the pr I have open does 12:06:44 <08o____0> Necromancers like (and are fun to play with) sustain. HP/MP regen on kill based on necro skill? Would help even meleedudes with pain weapons haha 12:07:12 <08o____0> (but the main thought was keeping the deathball rolling) 12:07:25 <04dracoomega> It would be nice if it was connected to actually casting necro spells somehow 12:07:37 <04dracoomega> Resonance effectively is, since the damage bonus requires a construct nearby 12:07:53 <04dracoomega> (And how else are you making one? There are other ways, but forgecraft spells are the obvious one) 12:12:04 <09hellmonk> yeah something with regen could work I guess, needs details tho 12:15:24 <09hellmonk> Thinking about a ranged slaying bonus or other form of damage increase for archery ego as well, since that one is similarly unpopular 12:15:59 <08o____0> ??archery 12:16:00 <04Cerebot> archery[1/2]: Heavy armour ego that reduces Ecumbrance Rating by two thirds for the purposes of launcher penalties. If you have 18 ER, you can fire ranged weapons as if you only had 6 ER. 12:34:07 <08o____0> My thinking was that if you're gonna train a lot of necro you ought to cast spells, even if you can only manage lower level spells animate dead/fugue in heavy armor. Necromancy deals damage in a lot of indirectish ways between allies,buffs,hexes,clouds,constrict. I guess one way to tie it to (a limited but iconic set of) necromancy spells is to give back some resources when an undead ally dies 12:39:36 <09hellmonk> I think I'd rather it not rely on the ally stuff. What about armor skill based chance to refund 1d(spell mana) on cast for necro spells and smaller numbers for the wiz and power boost 12:41:58 <04dracoomega> I feel like most necro spells are not the kind of thing you're usually casting enough to be MP-limited by (and probably especially not for a character wearing this, who is likely not casting a lot of other spells.). What would you think about it being 'chance of armour-skill-scaling lifesteal against nearby enemies on cast' instead? 12:44:15 <08o____0> So it's not about necromancy then or it only works with necro spells? 12:44:24 <04dracoomega> I mean casting necromancy spells 12:44:42 <08o____0> Yeah, that makes sense, just making sure I understood! 12:45:12 <08o____0> vamp draining buff haha 12:49:59 <08o____0> And yeah I guess I would use a lot less mp if I wasn't spamming bvc/haunt/etc 12:50:57 <09hellmonk> sure, I guess it can life steal one guy on cast for a little bit of health, sounds fun 12:52:07 <08o____0> (and also sublimation exists so hp can be made into mp) 12:55:22 <09hellmonk> Number suggestions welcome (will change the wiz and enhancer parts to be lower when this goes in) 13:20:27 03CrawlOdds02 07* 0.35-a0-1010-gd3b51ec87d: Make shopkeeper names more random 10(15 minutes ago, 3 files, 7+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d3b51ec87d3f 13:49:47 <08o____0> It depends a lot on how the effect works. The range of the effect, and armor scaling chance... I do think it should also scale on spell level also. Scaling on spell level means you're incentivized to use bigger spells to heal in a smaller amount of time and not incentivized to cast lower level spells instead. I'll just say 1 range for now because that's the easiest to think about. That way you're limited to 8 enemies max and that's a 13:49:48 situation the player wants to avoid so it's typically less. It's a heavy armor character so I will assume that being in melee range isn't a deal-breaker. Chance might be skill/27 so up to 100%. Independent chance per enemy so it's a bit less all-or-nothing. HP might be just be 1dSpell_Level So with we can have a formula for average HP returned: 1dLevel * enemies * skill/27 Just as a starting point. I made a graph to represent that. 13:49:48 https://www.desmos.com/calculator/kjdsddbde3 It seems to have big issues where it scales quite high with large numbers of enemies so I think there should be some sort of falloff. Perhaps the chance is lowered each time an enemy is successfully effected? If that was the case, it would allow increasing the range if desired. 13:51:44 <08o____0> I guess the average of 1dN is (N+1) / 2 ? 15:43:52 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.35-a0-1010-gd3b51ec87d (34) 22:37:29 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.35-a0-1010-gd3b51ec87d (34) 23:03:36 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.35-a0-1010-gd3b51ec87d 23:41:41 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.35-a0-1010-gd3b51ec87d (34) 23:59:27 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.35-a0-1010-gd3b51ec87d