03:33:21 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5261-gd9800d219b 03:42:12 03Aliscans02 {CrawlOdds} 07* 0.35-a0-678-g9975744c90: Give a description to items the player has detected but not seen. 10(26 hours ago, 4 files, 13+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9975744c901f 05:42:17 <11Odds> I'm interested in thoughts on the console UI in https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/5330 for showing information about the tile under the cursor in X. I think something like this is a good idea, but am not sure what is most useful. At the moment it shows the same thing the glyph represents, with (&c.) for overlong descriptions and multiple things. 05:42:18 <11Odds> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1523670423236247723/image.png?ex=6a4cf429&is=6a4ba2a9&hm=e41b4b0f633c65dced6601ccd1f4db98510b4f346f3bbbe2595447d3dfee0432& 05:43:05 <11Odds> (The tiles version of the same thing is much easier because we have the message log and can do something very much like we do with x) 05:50:51 <04dracoomega> I mean, it seems very sensible to me, but also I don't play console 05:53:40 <11Odds> Yeah. I'll leave it a bit for any console enjoyers to weigh in, and then just go with this UI 🙂 05:54:13 <11Odds> Am I right in thinking that if cell.invisible_monster() is true, we should also have a proper monster_info for that cell? 05:54:35 <04dracoomega> Pretty sure that should always be true, yes 08:46:32 <12ebering> In console we use (…) for truncations elsewhere 08:47:27 <12ebering> Where … is the ellipsis character, not 3 characters wide 08:48:05 <11Odds> Ah cool, I'll fall in line with that 08:49:05 <12ebering> The patch looks well thought out in terms of preserving showing stairs (the explored vs unexplored map glyphs can be changed to different symbols so they screen read) 08:49:44 <12ebering> I might be nice to add player relative coordinates as an option for the floor the player is on 08:49:55 <12ebering> (Again for screen reading players) 08:51:44 <11Odds> That's a good idea. Do we have anything like that for targetting or elsewhere? 08:58:39 <12ebering> Yes, ctrl-x has an optional player relative coordinate 08:59:11 <12ebering> I forget the option but it’s mentioned in the section of the options guide for screen readers 09:00:32 that'd be monster_item_view_coordinates 09:07:20 <11Odds> I reckon reusing that option probably makes sense 09:49:00 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.35-a0-679-g88b023abf1: Fix xv overestimating monster damage for some brands (ebonnov) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/88b023abf15b 11:42:06 03Aliscans02 {CrawlOdds} 07* 0.35-a0-680-g2149569b0a: Describe things under the cursor on the level map in console. 10(30 hours ago, 10 files, 134+ 50-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2149569b0a72 11:42:06 03CrawlOdds02 07* 0.35-a0-681-g90ee43798a: Describe things under the cursor on the level map in tiles 10(21 hours ago, 4 files, 60+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/90ee43798adb 11:42:06 03CrawlOdds02 07* 0.35-a0-682-g275830e5ba: Honour coordinate viewing option in level view 10(19 minutes ago, 2 files, 16+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/275830e5ba49 12:10:56 03CrawlOdds02 07* 0.35-a0-683-g060c873c3b: Make DjBe playable again. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/060c873c3bc6 12:13:11 <04dracoomega> Whoops, haha 12:13:38 <11Odds> Indeed 🙂 12:14:14 <04dracoomega> (When I saw the commit title, at first I was actually like "Oh, I didn't realize we already banned djinni berserkers, but I guess it makes a certain sense...") 12:14:22 <04dracoomega> Before I read it 12:14:34 <09hellmonk> djbe playable but they can't go vehumet. makes you think 12:14:56 <04dracoomega> Well, Trog does at least actually do things 12:15:01 <11Odds> Playing DjBe makes me sad because you get shown all these awesome forbidden things 12:15:16 <09hellmonk> vehumet provides a range increase for destructive spells and wiz for them 12:15:29 <04dracoomega> Ah, fair. Not sure why I thought that wouldn't apply >.> 12:15:58 <09hellmonk> like I'm not saying it's good, or even that it's better than trog, but it is a little inconsistent imo 12:17:03 <11Odds> Are there any other banned gods where it's not the whole god that would be useless? 12:17:10 <11Odds> (Apart from Dj^Sif) 12:17:10 <04dracoomega> (Sif is basically completely nonfunctional, though. ...I guess you could use Exegesis on a spell you already have??) 12:18:01 <11Odds> Yeah Sif is so so bad I feel very comfortable banning it. Vehumet is like... half a god, roughly? Worse if you roll poorly of course 12:18:30 <04dracoomega> When djinni were first added, they could worship the spell gods (but with the gifts and MP stuff disabled for them), but that apparently lasted like... a day or something before other feedback encouraged PF to ban them entirely 12:18:52 <04dracoomega> (Or 'some very small amount of time', whatever it was) 12:18:59 <11Odds> In that case I see no reason to revisit that tbh 12:19:51 <11Odds> Nothing's changed and on Veh either way seems kinda reasonable 12:21:38 <04dracoomega> Kiku still gives Sign of Ruin, but there's a solid chance wretches will literally never do anything 12:22:17 <04dracoomega> (I guess when djinni were first added, even the pain wouldn't wouldn't work, since you trained spellcasting only. That's not true anymore, but not sure how much that moves the needle) 12:22:44 <11Odds> Yeah Kiku still seems extremely sad, the gifts and the wretches are very large slice of the power 12:24:05 <11Odds> I think these gods would all be consistently terrible choices for a DJ, except just maybe a Dj^CA would had seen enough spells to take Kiku or Veh 12:25:31 <04dracoomega> (Whereas while DjBe might seem somewhat self-defeating, they're actually 'okay' melee characters and certainly not even close to the worst berserker) 12:25:33 <02Darby> the advantage Trog has is that at least Dj can use the whole god, it's just most of their species they lose 12:25:41 <02Darby> undead berserkers, on the other hand... 12:26:05 <04dracoomega> The BiA change was definitely some form of undead berserker buff 12:26:24 <04dracoomega> Your very earlygame still sucks, but at least you have better power later on 12:26:34 <11Odds> Yeah DjBe is totally fine to exist... the undead berserkers are way more questionable but also they are totally playable IMO, berserkers aren't about berserking 12:26:40 <09hellmonk> Djinn of vehumet probably gets more value than minotaur of vehumet on average 12:26:58 <09hellmonk> even though you "can" play it 12:27:01 <11Odds> Mostly, I find them questionable flavourwise because the name is berserker and Trog likes you to berserk and you don't 12:27:10 <04dracoomega> "They're doing their best" 12:27:15 <09hellmonk> I would not favor banning undead berserkers 12:27:22 <04dracoomega> I certainly would not either 12:27:30 <02Darby> terrible combos are definitely a fuzzy line (reminded of how I've intermittently contemplated enabling FeHs because most of their spellbook is usable for felids) 12:27:50 <04dracoomega> Yeah, that one's kind of funny. You can't use a sling, but the starting book is probably actually decent for them 12:28:04 <02Darby> (not necessarily terrible in terms of winrate but in terms of the basic concept) 12:28:06 <04dracoomega> Jinxbite is good in melee anyway, and their hexes apt is superlative 12:28:38 <04dracoomega> (It probably wouldn't even be their worst background) 12:28:59 <04dracoomega> So it kind of feels like the only mismatch is in the name >.> 12:29:09 <11Odds> And in the later spells 12:29:15 <04dracoomega> I mean, Cause Fear is great 12:29:19 <11Odds> Inner flame cat melee :PlogChamp: 12:29:24 <04dracoomega> I assume one uses a wand there 12:29:26 <11Odds> Oh yeah, cause fear exists 12:29:28 <09hellmonk> just get any ranged damage spell 12:29:33 <09hellmonk> and then inner flame is fine 12:29:38 <04dracoomega> Or any other spell, yes 12:29:58 <04dracoomega> But Jinxbite + Cause Fear on a +4 apt has to be decent, I imagine 12:30:16 <11Odds> True. And sigil is probably a thing for melee, if it's a thing (never really worked it out myself). So it's really just dimensional bullseye. 12:30:39 <04dracoomega> I've (rarely) used sigil on melee characters as a form of escape 12:30:51 <04dracoomega> Certainly not useless 12:31:03 It's not technically useless but compared to other spells... 12:31:13 <04dracoomega> (Of course, the job description for it is probably misleading here :P) 12:31:24 I just wish there was some degree of control in its use 12:32:07 <06regret-⸸nde※> Sigil of Binding gets a lot of bad rep because most players seem to never internalize monster movement is as simple as "tries to line up to a straight line on the eight-way compass directions from the player". 12:32:43 <06regret-⸸nde※> It is a shame, but people not realizing this also gets people hit more by traps, so.... 12:32:53 That's fair; I did only very recently learn about that and I've been trying to internalize it better 12:33:04 <11Odds> The thing I dislike about it in the context of hexslingers is the combo with inner flame, which makes having fast monsters around rather scary 12:33:30 <11Odds> But I'm very prepared to believe I'm just not good at it, it's one of those spells I struggle to remember when I need to 12:33:57 <04dracoomega> I think the combo can be a little awkward (but it's a lot better than trying to use inner flame before that spell was in their book, imo) 12:34:15 <04dracoomega> Since it gives you at least a few turns breathing room to blow them up safely 12:34:29 <04dracoomega> (And jinxbite will injure them to proc flame clouds even if you miss) 12:34:32 <04dracoomega> So you're a lot more consistent 12:34:45 oo I didn't know that re: jinxbite 12:37:56 <04dracoomega> This discussion is making me honestly wonder if it's justifiable to let you be a FeHS. (Like, I think it's actually an interesting start for them) 12:38:06 <04dracoomega> Even if they lack ranged weapon skill 12:38:58 <11Odds> Grim XL1, unless you give them unarmed 12:39:02 <04dracoomega> On reflection, they can use their book better than a FoWr can use theirs 12:39:10 <02Darby> forcing all the progress players to play one more cat 12:39:17 <04dracoomega> Probably the ranged weapon skill goes into unarmed, yes 12:40:07 <11Odds> Yeah the flavour is weak but it does seem totally playable 12:40:23 <11Odds> They can still sling hexes 🙂 12:40:28 <04dracoomega> I guess, yes! 12:40:31 <02Darby> scaredy cat meet scary cat 12:41:20 <04dracoomega> Oh, independently of this, I had been thinking of replacing hexslinger's ?poison with ?fear. Like, yes I know they already have the spell for that, but they really lack for anything to do in a scary situation at XL 1, and ?poison really doesn't cut it for most of those. 12:41:50 <04dracoomega> Sometimes you can use it in advance of one, but many problems you can end up in at XL 1, you realistically couldn't 12:41:55 <11Odds> Does anyone have fear as a start? 12:42:03 <04dracoomega> Don't think s 12:42:31 <11Odds> Yeah I think that would be a good change (and the overlap seems totally fine, cause fear is far away) 12:42:36 <04dracoomega> Yeah 12:43:15 <11Odds> They have a poor XL1 and poison is one of the weakest starting consumables 12:43:47 <04dracoomega> To be honest, I had also been thinking of handing out a few more consumables to a handful of non-book starts, in a more general sense. Like, it's pretty much universally agreed that book starts almost always have the more consistent earlygame, and it doesn't seem harmful to give some of the others a little bit more. (And having tools is fun!) 12:44:24 <11Odds> How do monsters react to poison clouds they are too scared of while you shoot at them? Do they just hang around? 12:45:57 <04dracoomega> Yes 12:46:38 <04dracoomega> Like, it can be fairly effective when used preemptively, but you have to be pretty sure you're going to need it to blow your single consumable on a fight before you fire any shots. (And also that it will be sufficient to make up for the fact that you can't flee, either) 12:47:04 <11Odds> Right yeah. It's extremely good against a D:1 gnoll, very bad for the hobgoblin fight that goes south 12:47:24 <11Odds> And most starting consumablees are for the latter, really 12:47:27 <04dracoomega> Yeah 12:47:39 <04dracoomega> Insurance against the fact that sometimes the RNG is just not on your side 12:47:43 <04dracoomega> (And margins are thin at XL 1) 12:48:45 <11Odds> I like this directionally, though it could very easily be a large balance change 12:50:55 <04dracoomega> I suspect it wouldn't end up being that significant a change (though really - how many people think hunter can't handle a little dose of extra earlygame power? ^^; ) 12:53:22 <11Odds> I think hunters are actually fine early - shortbows are a perfectly strong D:1 weapon, it's just that they are more likely to have to keep it for ages than a fighter with their +0 mace 12:53:27 <04dracoomega> Many spell backgrounds start with a lot of tools that are good for quite a long time. I think there's a fair bit of room before we need to worry about overtaking those (especially with single use items) 12:53:41 <11Odds> Yeah very much agree with that 12:53:42 <04dracoomega> I think hunter has a strong D:1 and often a surprisingly lousy ~D:3 12:54:05 <11Odds> Yeah, I'd have said slightly later but that's how I feel too 12:54:26 <04dracoomega> Likely because they are so much less likely to find a good weapon upgrade than even casters 12:54:55 <04dracoomega> (Even a mace fighter will sometimes just take a branded shortblade and make good use of it for a while, while training something else) 12:55:04 <11Odds> Or find some decent armour 12:55:07 <04dracoomega> Yeah 12:55:19 <11Odds> Super rare for fighter not to have found something relevant by D:5 is my instinct 12:55:24 <04dracoomega> Feels like it 12:55:39 <11Odds> (And mages don't need to find anything) 12:56:00 <04dracoomega> (I have definitely made it to Lair on a hunter without a better upgrade than maybe +2 on that plain shortbow, though :P) 12:56:33 <04dracoomega> Trick shots and more/new ranged weapon types have the potential to make that span a lot more interesting, but that's a couple versions away at this rate ^^; 12:59:05 <02Monkooky> My impression wrt kiku/sif/veh was that it was 'god is banned to keep you from spell gifts' more than 'god is banned because it sucks without book gifts' 13:01:11 <02Monkooky> like obviously the god could be permitted with book gifts banned, but I think that would be surprising and difficult to communicate to someone before they blundered into the god pick 13:23:09 <04dracoomega> CAO seems stuck in the past again, I think? 13:24:03 <11Odds> !versions 13:24:07 <04Cerebot> Latest versions seen in milestones this week: [LLD] => 0.34.1-4-g0e95e08, [CAO] => 0.35-a0-637-gac8e495, [CDO] => 0.35-a0-669-g11c2ce6, [CUE CXC] => 0.35-a0-676-g598ad57, [CBR2 CRG CBRG] => 0.35-a0-677-ge094053, [CNC] => 0.35-a0-679-g88b023a, [CDI CPO] => 0.35-a0-683-g060c873 13:24:15 <11Odds> Oh, CAO. 13:24:33 <11Odds> I'll kick off a build see what errors 13:25:05 <11Odds> (Have we discussed how infeasible is it for CAO to get a modern compiler?) 13:29:17 I think r*x has said things about it in the past? 13:31:00 <11Odds> Ah yes it has been discussed 13:32:05 <08o____0> Is it running an ancient version of debian or something? 13:32:21 <11Odds> Yeah 13:32:39 <08o____0> !stableversions 13:32:43 <04Cerebot> Latest versions seen in milestones this week (!alpha): [CDO] => 0.26.1-16-g4e020e1, [CAO] => 0.34.0, [CPO] => 0.34.1, [CBR2 CDI CNC CUE CXC LLD CRG CBRG] => 0.34.1-4-g0e95e08 13:32:50 <08o____0> CAO is also behind on 0.34 13:33:03 <11Odds> Wheezy, I believe 13:33:14 <11Odds> (the Debian version, I mean) 13:33:41 <08o____0> I think that was the first version I ever used haha 13:34:29 <11Odds> (Obviously the server hosters are doing a great service and if we have to keep a very old compiler happy that's a price worth paying) 14:01:42 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.35-a0-683-g060c873c3b (34) 14:03:25 <11Odds> Hmmmm. The first time CAO built since last time I kicked it. 14:03:44 <11Odds> Possibly it's the regular job rather than the build itself, then. 15:43:40 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.35-a0-683-g060c873c3b (34) 20:20:17 <06cao> Renew Success by crawl Success certs: crawl.akrasiac.org_ecc 22:36:03 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.35-a0-683-g060c873c3b (34) 23:00:00 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.35-a0-683-g060c873c3b 23:33:34 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.35-a0-683-g060c873c3b (34) 23:56:16 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.35-a0-683-g060c873c3b