00:02:23 <04dracoomega> I believe Index planned to repurpose a bunch of demonic rune vaults into the final floor of Pan, and probably will just leave a rune in them for now 00:02:53 <04dracoomega> (She's asleep right now or I'd ask more specifically) 00:03:53 <04dracoomega> I really did want to get the whole extended rework done in the one version, but I've had to concede that at the pace things have been going, it's not going to happen in this one. But I thought that finite Pan made sense even without the other changes (and I'm still planning to get back to the Tomb reworks once I'm done with this large invis project) 00:04:29 <11Odds> Yeah, I think finite pan makes perfect sense standalone 02:21:15 <11Odds> Ha! Finally tracked down why portals sometimes don't message you (as in https://github.com/crawl/crawl/issues/5301) 02:21:40 <11Odds> I did not especially expect the shopping list to be involved 02:35:07 <04dracoomega> It's excursions, isn't it? 02:35:42 <04dracoomega> (I thought we fixed some bug with portal timers stopping working properly when you peeked at another level. Am I misremembering or is this a second one?) 02:37:58 <11Odds> Yeah, it's excursions; they reset the marker which then thinks you haven't entered the level 02:39:29 <04dracoomega> Okay, I think actually I am misremembering the portal-related level-peeking bug that was fixed, but also that it was known that peeking off-floor could suppress portal messages for months and I just forgot to actually look into fixing it >.>; 02:39:32 <04dracoomega> %git 5f9b90c 02:39:33 <04Cerebot> DracoOmega * 0.34-a0-1004-g5f9b90cd0b: Fix being able to freeze time on other floors by peeking at them (Darby) (8 months ago, 1 file, 5+ 4-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5f9b90cd0b5c 02:40:02 <11Odds> Huh cool bug 03:34:17 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5261-gd9800d219b 03:51:30 03CrawlOdds02 07* 0.35-a0-572-g353cd707cd: Fix messages from portals after excursions 10(47 minutes ago, 2 files, 13+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/353cd707cdd1 03:56:07 <06regret-⸸nde※> (This is entirely correct.) 05:57:37 <11Odds> For the Xom bullet here, I'm not sure about keeping the messages... these would just be some random extra messages which didn't correlate in any way with Xom's actions, but certainly sound like they do, which seems a bit misleading? 05:58:58 <11Odds> (Also very interested in the larger change here... making strategic gifts be triggered be exploration seems clear enough and I'd be happy to take it on if that's helpful) 06:01:22 <04dracoomega> I think the idea was that Xom laughing at things happening would be essentially similar to their many flavor-only actions right now. But it's possible that these specific messages have such a long history of people thinking they're mechanically important (even though right now they're not even usually worth paying attention to) that it might be more misleading than it is valuable. 06:01:31 <04dracoomega> Or risk being such, anyway 06:02:08 <06regret-⸸nde※> They could all be rewritten, at least? 06:02:10 <11Odds> Xom laughing at things happening isn't about mood, though, but rather about boredom? 06:04:33 <11Odds> (Very possible I'm misunderstanding something, this is the first time I've read Xom's code) 06:05:37 <04dracoomega> I think you're correct. 06:05:54 <04dracoomega> (But I think boredom was also on the chopping block here) 06:05:59 <04dracoomega> If there was some ambiguity about that 06:06:25 <04dracoomega> There's no mechanical requirement for anti-scumming measures if they're only rewarding strategic benefits for exploration 06:07:02 <04dracoomega> Or at least 'The effect of player actions on boredom' 06:07:26 <11Odds> Ah, interesting. I'd read it as mood going and boredom being toned down a lot 06:08:49 <11Odds> Boredom wouldn't be an anti-scumming measure but if it isn't too punishing might still be an fun god system 06:09:29 <04dracoomega> I think one concern she had with even un-manipulable mood/boredom is that it still has slightly odd effects on it affecting whether you want to explore at that time or not? (But she is the one who has spent more time thinking about this topic actively) 06:09:44 <11Odds> (If boredom is also going then I agree that "Xom is interested in stuff" is for sure a nice set of messages to have in grey) 06:10:38 <04dracoomega> Like, it 'makes sense' to me for Xom to fluctuate in goodness/badness at random (like 'mood spells'), but I am not sure if this really results in a better play experience than just being entirely random about this? 06:10:58 <04dracoomega> Since it's already fully possible for Xom to do good things when upset with you and bad things when happy with you 06:11:43 <04dracoomega> (I honestly have suspect that people sometimes infer too much coherance to Xom's actions and assume a spat of bad actions is because of recent boredom adjustments rather than 'Sometimes Xom is like that') 06:12:14 <11Odds> ^ I certainly suspect this of myself, though my recent CK luck has felt especially awful 06:13:05 <11Odds> (I also hadn't realised before today that mood and boredom are two completely separate systems only one of which I had any control over at all) 06:13:14 <04dracoomega> I have not played a proper CK game since the last rounds of changes, but certainly in the version prior, you could have characters end up in S-branches with a dozen badmuts and others with a dozen good ones, despite no obvious difference in play 06:13:44 <04dracoomega> And people do seem to assume that Xom being really mean had something to do with their actions ^^; 06:13:59 <04dracoomega> (So there may be some merit to just being able to say "No" rather than "Not really, buuuuut") 06:14:09 <11Odds> The angry red messages on nearly-explored floors definitely enhance the feeling of coherence when I have bad luck 06:14:15 <06regret-⸸nde※> While boredom is neat as a distinct system, the effects are pretty janky in results- summons even further incentivize just sitting around staaircases, strategic damage either doesn't do a lot or encourages changing routes to less dangerous branches, and so would emphasizing only the mid-combat bad effects. 06:14:55 <06regret-⸸nde※> I would miss it a little also, but it is fairly cleaner to just cut it entirely when there's so much else to emphasize. 06:15:16 <04dracoomega> One thing that was true for a while there was that the new boredom messages happened earlier than the old ones. And merely 'getting bored' is no more bad for the player than being fully amused, which I think created some false positives, too 06:15:38 <04dracoomega> As in, the threshold to print a message was higher during accellerated boredom 06:15:47 <11Odds> Yeah all this is quite opaque. I'm a bit worried how much better my reading the code may have made me at playing Xom 🙂 06:16:43 <04dracoomega> Well, I've read it over a moderate amount in past and I don't feel it made me any better at playing with Xom. (But perhaps I have just always had the attitude that it's not worth paying attention to the details and just roll with the punches) 06:16:57 <04dracoomega> Some people making those guides do seem to have bound better ways to exploit that than I ever would, that's for sure 06:17:21 <11Odds> OK cool so the plan is indeed to rip out mood and boredom, leaving only tension affecting Xom's actions, and move to strategic gifts (including bad ones or not?) being triggered by exploration 06:17:47 <04dracoomega> I assume strategic 'gifts' have to include bad stuff (and certainly include large amounts of 'useless' stuff) 06:17:59 <04dracoomega> Like the actual useless item gifts 06:18:00 <06regret-⸸nde※> Many of the guides focus on Xomscumming or very fringe case matters (like making frail mages try to learn spells illusions can't cast), of course. 06:18:29 <11Odds> Yeah I've never been remotely tempted by Xomscumming, but I do now know better what boredom is and how to alleviate it 06:20:03 <04dracoomega> The popular wisdom was that it was never worth bothering to try; do you think that's incorrect? (I've never looked closely at that with an eye to making use of it, at least) 06:20:16 <04dracoomega> A bunch of them involve things that are actively bad for your health happening, but I suppose some are less-so 06:21:23 <11Odds> I think there are some trivial ways to amuse Xom like rebounding Shock off a wall and hitting yourself 06:22:06 <06regret-⸸nde※> ...if nothing else, on immediately looking for this myself, it looks like you could swap jewellery to have rF- and then zap yourself with a wand of flame to push the boredom timer back, also. >>_>> 06:22:23 <11Odds> So yeah these are strong arguments to remove boredom 06:22:41 <11Odds> If we don't I'm going to hate the way it makes me play 🙂 06:23:16 <04dracoomega> Oh, huh. That's actually harmlessly easy 06:23:58 <11Odds> It was also early on a long, long list of ways to amuse Xom and then I stopped looking, I suspect there are more such... 06:24:14 <04dracoomega> I think the original logic was mostly just "Would Xom find this funny?" with no further thought given 06:24:32 <04dracoomega> (Which really does make more sense for a purely flavor message than anything potentialy load-bearing) 06:24:52 <11Odds> Yeah 06:25:14 <04dracoomega> Since it is probably still a net-positive to have Xom laugh at your misfortune, as long as you're not incentivized to create some 06:25:46 <11Odds> I do slightly wonder if the messages can stay god-coloured since Xom already has many pure flavour yellow messages? 06:26:10 <11Odds> (At least I think he does) 06:27:19 <04dracoomega> I think that is true, yes 06:31:03 <04dracoomega> I am still slowly making my way through all the spells and abilities that need UI tweaks for invis stuff 06:31:17 <04dracoomega> It turns out it takes a while to touch like 50 different spells 06:33:35 <04dracoomega> (Many of those changes are like one or two line edits, and then a few are considerably more complicated) 06:39:11 <06regret-⸸nde※> I myself am currently working on some Abyss stuff + two new monsters to move it from Depths to a multi-entrance serial vault on D:13-15, to help with people who want to join Lugonu early (though with still having to deliberately enter the Abyss to do so), to help with good-god worshippers who want to deliberately enter Abyss:3 before Depths now that they can't use distortion weapons to get there, and to make late D a bit less 06:39:12 dull a place outside of vault luck. 06:40:38 <06regret-⸸nde※> (It's going to be attached to Draco's push since it's going to use a spell being added there, but it should still be reasonable accomplishable enough for me to move onto Pan and Xom stuff not too long from now.) 06:58:00 <04dracoomega> (Honestly, this is mostly going like "A half-dozen fixes that are painless and then one minor thing that takes 2 hours" >.>) 07:10:59 <11Odds> (I wonder if it was ever significantly useful to wait for Xom to be randomly happy with you before taking on a dangerous fight?) 09:11:53 <11Odds> I was pondering Xom's strategic gifting with exploration, which seems to have some tension between a) various "gifts" being inappropriate during a fight and b) the player not being able to manipulate gifts. I wonder if we need to queue up gifts until the tension is low enough, or something like that. 09:15:39 <04dracoomega> I'm not sure we need to worry about Xom doing 'poorly timed' gifts, per se (in a flavor coherence sense), but it is possible that some of them are more likely to be missed mid-fight, I guess 09:16:01 <04dracoomega> I think some of Index's plans for 'strategic' effects also included very long-term but not infinte buffs 09:16:26 <04dracoomega> (Which could also be useful in combat) 09:21:11 <11Odds> Yeah I didn't mean in the flavour coherence sense so much as in the "this could be unexpectedly nasty" sense (there are already a bunch of things Xom won't do at any but very low tension) 09:22:24 <11Odds> (Anyway obviously Index is way ahead of me on all this, mostly just idly musing 🙂 ) 14:17:41 New branch created: pull/5312 (3 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/5312 14:17:42 03CrawlOdds02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/5312 * 0.35-a0-573-g8e24c614b2: Remove Xom mood 10(8 hours ago, 5 files, 138+ 254-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8e24c614b215 14:17:42 03CrawlOdds02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/5312 * 0.35-a0-574-g19d0cbc51b: Update all of Xom's notes to use severity 10(4 hours ago, 3 files, 82+ 87-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/19d0cbc51b7d 14:17:42 03CrawlOdds02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/5312 * 0.35-a0-575-gdb3cae4324: Remove Xom boredom 10(7 hours ago, 8 files, 76+ 319-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/db3cae432493 14:20:33 <11Odds> Xom wreaking immediate revenge for my attempt to change him 14:20:34 <11Odds> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1519814580983828600/image.png?ex=6a3eed20&is=6a3d9ba0&hm=f74f1660a0eae32a75efe3bb7a4f9b9c431558e7e26248c1e89af20beee2b41a& 15:42:20 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.35-a0-572-g353cd707cd (34) 22:35:36 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.35-a0-572-g353cd707cd (34) 22:59:13 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.35-a0-572-g353cd707cd 23:12:21 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.35-a0-572-g353cd707cd (34) 23:55:43 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.35-a0-572-g353cd707cd