03:19:42 <12ge0ff> Not letting to mirror god-hated monsters feels like an unnecessary step back. It might have a flavour-related justification, but, to quote the commit that removed such limitation (2951c229), "it doesn't add tactical complexity or interesting scenarios, it's just an annoying gotcha in rare corner cases." And even if the flavour is a top priority, then why would, for example, Trog care that you've dealt with a magical user via a device. 03:19:49 <12ge0ff> Also also, we have wands of charming and summons of summons, which would also need to care about god restrictions. Because now they don't, and I'd rather it stay this way. 03:26:30 <11Odds> That commit changed the behaviour from phantom mirror producing hostile monsters to phantom mirror producing friends, right? 03:28:54 <12ge0ff> "not working" and "not working and hitting you on the head" are close enough 03:30:12 <11Odds> It's a good point re: charming and summons, and I don't really want to get too far into a wider "forbid all evil allies" rabbithole. Between those and my concern that it's not very clear which monsters are evil, I'm inclined to drop this one. 03:32:03 <12ge0ff> (the chaos-cloning still exists, right?) 03:32:17 <11Odds> As a chaos effect? Pretty sure yes 03:34:54 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5261-gd9800d219b 04:49:56 <06regret-⸸nde※> ...Honestly, I'd prefer there to be fairly more failcases for phantom mirrors being so strong as they are, and outside of, like, Brain Bite, how many evil non-necromantic non-evil-god-priest non-demon non-undead cases even are there? 04:51:58 <11Odds> Many spell casters with one evil spell don’t immediately strike me as evil (even if I know they are when I think about it) 04:53:03 <11Odds> So I think I would get a few nasty surprises from this 04:54:32 <06regret-⸸nde※> If we're going to display the silver vulnerability line on xv every time solely for javelins and Zing, we could just have an explicit listing of evil and highlight it with some colours when xv'ing a monster while worshipping that trinity. 04:56:21 <08wormsofcan> misses the case where the monster has evil equipment 04:56:41 <11Odds> For me it’s not so much as being able to easily check evilness as being able to eventually know it without checking. Like no one is ever surprised that a demon or undead turns out to be evil, but you can play the game a long time and not instinctively know “oh yeah, Jessica is evil” 05:01:21 <08wormsofcan> do we indicate trog disapproved monsters? I think that's a more confusing case 05:22:56 <11Odds> Oh huh, Trog doesn't hate demonic casting? 05:26:10 <06regret-⸸nde※> ...That feels like a significant absence, considering the extremely-Trog-associated antimagic brand still works on them. 05:26:39 <11Odds> Just checking I'm right about that, this is just from a code read 05:27:50 <11Odds> Yep empirical evidence agrees 05:30:09 <11Odds> Definitely seems very surprising 05:56:19 New branch created: pull/5292 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/5292 05:56:20 03Zhang Haocheng02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/5292 * 0.35-a0-464-g42cf38e95c: Make volcanoes roar less 10(23 hours ago, 3 files, 16+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/42cf38e95cb2 06:07:10 <11Odds> Yeah, demonic casts are not classed as "spells", but they are described as "magical abilities", and magic is what Trog claims to hate, so I don't think there's anything in-game to make this expected. IMO we should probably fix this; it would be a somewhat large buff to Trog in extended but it's not like Trog is exactly OP in extended. 06:53:53 <08nicolae> i thought trog's hatred of magic was flavored as being against wizardy-type spell magic, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to use evocables or scrolls or potions or whatever 06:53:56 <08nicolae> or be a demonspawn 06:55:32 agreed ban all evo on trog 06:56:16 /s aside, letting trog mulch magic items for powerful abilities sounds neat 06:58:36 lean full into sacrificing all magic items (scrolls, some(?) potions, evo, artifacts) for trog powers 07:02:09 mulching artifact armor give a permanent ac boost, weapons give slaying boost, artifact rings give a random attribute, but you can't use artifact (maybe also ego?) equipment at all 07:02:42 this also gives piety, killing doesn't give piety anymore unless it's wizards 07:03:19 <11Odds> For the conducts on the players, Trog's flavour is clear it means spells. Perhaps we should fix the conduct description to replace "magic user" with "spellcaster"? 07:03:49 ssm_: This sounds like a huge exercise in hoovering up vendor trash, back to portable altar Nemelex 07:04:29 Pinkbeast: yes, which is why I limited it to artifacts. and there's not much reason to not mulch artifact equipment immediately unless you plan to abandon trog 07:04:48 just unrands or randarts too? 07:05:48 destroying unrands gives double stats! idk this was all off the cuff 07:05:57 you WILL destroy the autumn katana 07:06:01 ... the Wrath of Trog? 07:06:02 for +4 slaying 07:06:09 wrath of trog is the only unrand you can use 07:06:16 and the trock jewelery 07:06:30 s/trock/trog s/trog/truck/ 07:38:48 <11Odds> At any rate, on this conducts branch - after I test things a bit more I think I'll go ahead and merge it without forbidding phantom mirror or any making changes to clarify/change which god hates which monster 11:39:13 <08nicolae> probably 11:39:52 <11Odds> @dracoomega it's a while ago, but do you remember the motivation for making evolution and mut resistance an inverse pair back in ce3637a? I just had a sad roll where the first mut from evolution was mutation resistance, which just removes evolution instead (as they are inverse), which feels pretty surprising 11:50:30 seems kinda obvious to me: given that "evolution" is about adding/removing mutations, anything that blocks or restricts that makes it pointless 11:54:25 <11Odds> They were already a non-inverse pair, which means they couldn't coexist 12:30:12 <08nicolae> what's the difference between a non-inverse pair and a pair, then 12:41:59 <11Odds> Inverse pairs are like fire resistance and fire vulnerability - they are opposite and if you gain one it’s the same as losing the other (so when the mutation rolls “add mut resist”, it considers it equivalent to “remove evolution”). Non-inverse pairs are just pairs that can’t coexist (so adding mut resist would just fail) 12:48:27 <11Odds> (I think this means that inverse pairs always should be one good and one bad, otherwise "gain a good mutation" events like this one and catalyst can act as "remove a good mutation") 13:06:07 <08nicolae> yeah, in this case non-inverse makes sense 13:08:04 <11Odds> I think so too I just thought I'd check with the person who made the opposite change in case there was some reason I should take into account 🙂 13:32:38 <06pleasingfungus> sorry if i've asked this before, but is there any nice way to view the learndb online these days, similar to the late and lamented shallot.org UI? 13:36:08 <08o____0> ??learndb 13:36:09 <04Cerebot> learndb[1/10]: Go to https://dev.dcss.io/learndb.html to see all the topics on one page. 13:36:18 <08o____0> !browse hydra 13:36:19 <04Cerebot> https://dev.dcss.io/learndb.html#hydra 13:36:24 <08o____0> Works like before! 13:36:30 03CrawlOdds02 07* 0.35-a0-479-gf4db44de03: Fix an occasional misreport from mutation() 10(33 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f4db44de0317 13:56:55 <06pleasingfungus> ah phew 13:56:58 <06pleasingfungus> i feel much better now 13:57:02 <06pleasingfungus> tyvm! 15:43:08 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.35-a0-479-gf4db44de03 (34) 16:55:10 <04dracoomega> I am trying to think of what the reasoning might have been, and it's possible that I just thought it was arbitrarily inconsistent rather than having a good reason to be that way. At least, I can't think of a good reason right now. >.> 16:56:23 <04dracoomega> Seems reasonable to me. (Since Trog has always been fine with you using Cause Fear as long as it comes from a scroll instead of casting it yourself.) (I saw the 'doesn't mind natural spellcasters' thing as it being closer to 'Trog hates nerds' :P) 22:35:23 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.35-a0-479-gf4db44de03 (34) 22:59:24 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.35-a0-479-gf4db44de03 23:12:27 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.35-a0-479-gf4db44de03 (34) 23:28:16 03CrawlOdds02 07* 0.35-a0-480-g92050278c1: Prevent good mutations from occasionally removing evolution/rMut 10(89 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/92050278c1c0 23:41:36 04Build failed for 08master @ 92050278 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/27328297494 23:54:51 <11Odds> That build failure is about a python requirements failure for flake8-mutable, which I don't really understand 23:55:24 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.35-a0-480-g92050278c1