00:17:32 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4751 * 0.34-a0-802-g9991c43815: Refactor strenuous magic code 10(17 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9991c438154b 00:58:56 -!- indigaz21 is now known as indigaz2 02:41:27 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4751 * 0.34-a0-803-ge58c4279b5: Replace low mp on mothkin with lower apts 10(75 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e58c4279b5cc 03:31:37 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5261-gd9800d219b 06:14:52 03code282802 {dolorous} 07* 0.34-a0-917-g25954c103f: Make classed draconians' base_type their usual color. 10(10 months ago, 1 file, 22+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/25954c103fc8 06:14:52 03code282802 {dolorous} 07* 0.34-a0-918-g4347b36f16: Fix indentation of breath_to_spell map. 10(10 months ago, 1 file, 11+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4347b36f16a9 06:16:44 <06dolorous_84348> Fortunately, the branch was still in place, and it wasn't too hard to reconcile with current trunk. 06:36:17 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4751 * 0.34-a0-804-g95f8d4a101: Partially revert e58c427 10(65 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/95f8d4a1018c 08:37:53 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4751 * 0.34-a0-805-ge922f0b62f: Test reducing tabcast chance by ~25% 10(39 seconds ago, 6 files, 8+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e922f0b62f99 09:42:47 -!- supergeese is now known as uname-a 09:49:51 FinniousFinkelbottom (L27 DEFw) Crash caused by signal #11: Segmentation fault (Zig:27) 09:52:56 meep? 09:53:33 !crashlog FinniousFinklebottom xl=27 DEFw place=zig:27 09:53:34 No milestones for FinniousFinklebottom (xl=27 DEFw place=zig:27 crash). 09:53:52 !crashlog FinniousFinklebottom xl=27 DEFw 09:53:52 No milestones for FinniousFinklebottom (xl=27 DEFw crash). 09:54:09 !crashlog FinniousFinkelbottom xl=27 DEFw 09:54:10 1. FinniousFinkelbottom, XL27 DEFw, T:65377 (milestone): https://cbro.berotato.org/morgue/FinniousFinkelbottom/crash-FinniousFinkelbottom-20251008-164944.txt 10:00:09 I cant tell if a monster that was in the list was killed (or perhaps unsummoned) and it's following a no-longer-valid pointer 10:02:33 <09gammafunk> Let's be honest. The reason that game crashed is because that player had the ridiculous, outlanding, and insufferable name of FinniousFinkelbottom 10:04:33 <04dracoomega> Oh, it looks like charming a summoner in the middle of Dominate Undead dispelled its own summons, which were themselves on the list of targets for Dominate Undead 10:04:47 <04dracoomega> Probably? 10:06:49 03person5060502 {dolorous} 07* 0.34-a0-919-g54748a22c8: Fix German Lair description. 10(6 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/54748a22c879 10:06:49 03person5060502 {dolorous} 07* 0.34-a0-920-g8c381c6311: Update Spanish translation. 10(6 months ago, 15 files, 529+ 83-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8c381c6311c3 10:36:35 right, that's why I was looking for evidence of it beyond the sequence of messages 14:20:29 <06mumra> Do we need piety decay? Like, if I decide to trek back to a shop on D:2 because I have enough gold for an item there, what gameplay purpose does it serve that I lose a bunch of piety doing so? Is this a decision where i should have to weigh up whether it's worth the piety loss to get that item? (Especially having no real idea exactly how much piety that will cost me...) 14:22:45 <06mumra> Could apply to any god but specifically i really struggled with sif piety on a recent run and kept worrying that i wasn't optimising my turns enough. Then getting annoyed every time i hit 5 too many times while resting. Seemed really hard to get the book gifts. 14:24:55 <12ge0ff> a less radical solution to Sif's piety decay could be making it slow, similar to Hep's/TSO's 14:26:19 <12ge0ff> (maybe it should be done for Veh too, to make spell gifts appear slightly earlier) 14:26:22 <06mumra> (maybe could change it to only decay while you're doing active stuff: time spent in sight of monsters, exploring new terrain, healing. But simply backtracking to a shop or a different branch shouldn't also need a piety hit. But there is still an element of power spiral) 14:26:49 <09gammafunk> We've talked about the specific issues of sif recently in the roguelikes discord (by "we" I mean, DracoOmega, myself, and I think possibly also hellmonk) 14:27:31 <09gammafunk> There's some fairly general agreement that the god gift system that uses a gift timeout piety "sink" is something we'd like to get rid of 14:28:23 <09gammafunk> it's a sort of idiosyncrasy of the gifting system that happens to hurt sif piety gain a lot more than the current set of god 14:28:38 <06mumra> I also think sif had an indirect nerf due to Parchments. Firstly, there are way less spells available for exegesis, until you really start stacking up the books Secondly, the early book gifts are wasted on a lot of lower level common spells that previously you would have found already 14:29:43 <09gammafunk> well, for spell drops you get basically the same number of "floor" spells at any given point in the game (the numbers were tuned so that this would be the case) 14:30:15 <09gammafunk> having something "good" for exegesis is a bit subjective as to what is good, and if you have a narrow range of things you'd consider using, you're always going to have that variance 14:30:22 <09gammafunk> I will say that one idea DO had, which probably has merit 14:30:47 <06mumra> Maybe i was just a bit unlucky with spell drops that run. 14:30:47 <09gammafunk> would be to rework exegesis to be more favorable to repeated usage, probably paired with a mild piety cost buff to the ability 14:31:40 <09gammafunk> yeah, a single run can be a really bad indicator for something like this; on average one finds a good spell that's not super dependent on repeated casts to be useful for one use: e.g. a high level damage spell or a spell with damage over time aspects 14:31:59 <12ge0ff> > mild piety cost buff isn't exegesis already the most costly invocation (or at least in the top 3)? 14:32:18 <09gammafunk> buff means we'd reduce the piety cost 14:32:18 <09gammafunk> a buff to players 14:32:25 <09gammafunk> (and yes it's quite expensive) 14:32:28 <06mumra> I think spell power makes things a bit uneven in terms of what spells are good or not, assuming you are trying to use it for spells that are way outside your current abilities. Some spells are still amazing at low power, others not so much 14:32:41 <09gammafunk> but DO's idea was to make successive uses of exegesis cost less piety so that one could use the spells that really do require repeated use to get mileage out of them 14:33:23 <09gammafunk> so your first use of exegesis costs normal piety (again with a mild reduction in place) and an immediate subsequent one costs significantly less, one of that perhaps less still, up to some reasonable limit 14:33:41 <09gammafunk> so e.g. using it 3-4 times on bombard becomes something you might like to do 14:33:49 <09gammafunk> vs now where that's not a great proposition 14:34:10 <06mumra> Like I was actually using Firestorm woth Exegesis, it was just a bit wimpy at like <10% 14:34:31 <09gammafunk> <10%? 14:34:33 <09gammafunk> what does that percentage refer to 14:34:38 <06mumra> Power 14:35:04 <09gammafunk> ah, yeah, well what you need to do there is train a bit more invo; you're probably a character that's not trained conj/fire at all? 14:35:13 <06mumra> Exactly 14:35:19 <06mumra> But invo was pretty high 14:35:37 <09gammafunk> invo is used as a spellpower bonus and gets like a 1.5 multiplier 14:35:47 <06mumra> (honestly it was a week ago so these are not accurate memories now) 14:35:49 <09gammafunk> this is on top of spellpower coming from skills, int, enchancers etc 14:36:42 <02Darby> worth noting that exegesis does give a significant spellpower boost, though I do suspect that the fact that few people know about it is itself a potential issue 14:36:45 <09gammafunk> depending on your char, I would say that there were probably just better choices of spells, but if one had a lot of int and decent invo, you could certainly get something good from a single cast even with no conj/fire 14:36:55 <06mumra> But yeah having successive casts without destroying piety would be cool in that kind of situation 14:36:56 <09gammafunk> yeah as I described above, but it does require significant invo 14:36:59 <09gammafunk> right 14:37:10 <09gammafunk> the successive cost reduction would help 14:37:19 <06mumra> Honestly the choice of spells was pretty dire in that game 14:37:22 <09gammafunk> and you can look to have enhancers 14:37:37 <06mumra> In terms of "something thats going to kill a lot of stuff quite quickly" 14:37:48 <09gammafunk> it might be nice if we could do a cool inline display for exegesis spellpower 14:37:51 <09gammafunk> not sure if there's room for that 14:38:01 <09gammafunk> if it's just a percentage display, there should be 14:38:14 <09gammafunk> your initial question was about the need for piety decay at all 14:38:22 <09gammafunk> that's a much broader question affecting a lot of gods 14:38:39 <09gammafunk> the answer might be "no" with the zot clock in place 14:38:52 <09gammafunk> since we have something that's supposed to be well tuned for forward progress 14:39:00 <09gammafunk> in the era of food as a (terrible) forward progress clock 14:39:05 <09gammafunk> piety decay made a lot more sense 14:39:11 <12ge0ff> as a side note for the original question about the piety decay, it definitely was more noticeable in the old versions, when you had more floors in branches and when regen/MPregen speeds were very slow. The current piety decay is a (yet another) weaker clock, which is (mostly) visible on Sif and Sif only 14:39:32 <09gammafunk> right, I don't know that I've really felt piety decay much on something like oka 14:39:42 <09gammafunk> which is definitely the next god I'd think of where it'd be affected 14:39:42 <06mumra> Yeah I'm still not sure what function it serves at this point. Making it very slow vs just not bothering with decay at all. Piety is already a resource that you have to think about spending 14:39:45 <09gammafunk> arguably trog too 14:39:48 <12ge0ff> (maybe noticeable on Trog too, due to gifts) 14:40:17 <09gammafunk> trog still needs TrogBear gifts before I'll play it again 14:40:21 <09gammafunk> !lg . trog 14:40:22 <04Cerebot> 11. gammafunk the Tortoise (L27 GnFE of Trog), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2020-04-06 04:35:08, with 1515754 points after 92873 turns and 5:05:08. 14:40:27 <09gammafunk> oh wait I lied 14:40:36 <09gammafunk> I guess it's just berserkers that I don't play 14:41:10 <06mumra> I can imagine trog wants to encourage you to just keep battling and not stop and faff around. But sif is supposed to be a contemplative god, what do they care if you take a few thousand turns to just admire some scenery? 14:41:22 <02Darby> yeah you played that one like five minutes ago (in geological time), how could you forget? 14:41:33 <09gammafunk> I mean, you're making kind of theme arguments against piety decay here but 14:41:42 <09gammafunk> I don't think piety decay has anything to do with theme at all 14:41:52 <09gammafunk> I think it's purely a mostly invisible balance knob 14:42:04 <06mumra> Sure, that was slightly tongue in cheek 🙂 14:42:17 <09gammafunk> people have argued we should switch to explore piety for sif for a while 14:42:25 <09gammafunk> something I've been resistant to but I understand the temptation 14:42:30 <02Darby> note that as much as theme, I'm thinking of vehumet contrast 14:42:40 <06dolorous_84348> Yred would have a thematic reason to not have it: the good gods don't have it, so to properly counterbalance their godd-in-name-only hypocrisy, Yred shouldn't have it either. 14:43:13 <02Darby> while not the same, they have certain overlaps that make it nice to distance them further where possible 14:43:18 <09gammafunk> Is this when someone dumps pages of lore about gods and piety decay 14:43:19 wouldnt that also apply to Beogh these days? 14:43:48 <06mumra> But yeah with decay removed, maybe overall piety gain should be slightly reduced for balance. There are also gems to encourage low turncounts. Piety shouldn't need to encourage (nor does it need to reward) speedrunning 14:44:28 <02Darby> I wouldn't count gems since they're purely aesthetic (but that doesn't change the rest of the thrust of the conversation) 14:44:50 <09gammafunk> my complaint about explore piety is that it's basically a worse system of piety from kills. Almost completely overlaps but has weirder aspects like dipping down stairs to spot empty squares. Arguably "interesting gameplay" but I haven't heard a compelling version of this argument 14:45:08 <09gammafunk> I think piety for exploring dead space is at least mostly solved 14:45:26 <02Darby> I'm not opposed to making the TSO piety system less of a one-off if it comes to it 14:45:47 <09gammafunk> that one is just noticing monsters, right? 14:45:49 <02Darby> yeah 14:46:20 <09gammafunk> can't give piety for killing them, but noticing them is important, but you don't actually try to convert any 14:46:46 <09gammafunk> arguably it made a bit more sense when a lot more monsters became peaceful under TSO, but that seems a stretch 14:46:51 <02Darby> (it, like explore piety, does have certain cases where it's nice—I recall getting teleported into a horde of monsters so dense I immediately gained a * of piety, a square of halo, and a new ability) 14:47:37 <02Darby> admittedly a bit of a corner case, but the distinctions between the 3 different piety systems are largely made of corner cases 14:47:38 <09gammafunk> yeah, maybe nudging it somehow in that direction could lead to interesting things, but this is a side point I guess 14:48:46 <09gammafunk> you gain piety if you have a bad teleport. you gain piety if you get shafted. you gain piety when a monster high rolls an attack... 14:49:13 <09gammafunk> piety from bad rng 14:49:36 <09gammafunk> (these are not serious suggestions, to be clear) 14:49:51 <02Darby> don't worry I got that 14:50:14 <09gammafunk> but that vague idea of a version of exploration/noticing piety that is more tailored to "interesting things" is cool 14:51:24 <06mumra> Sif - piety for finding parchments and books to add to her library? (Can gain piety for gold by buying spells in a shop) (Also not a serious suggestion, although i don't actually see why it wouldn't work...) 14:51:28 until you ask yourself what defines "interesting" and when it does so 14:51:55 <09hellmonk> Clearly we remove piety decay and replace it with ambient doom gain over time to punish standing around and backtracking a lot 14:52:25 <09gammafunk> spelunky ghost... 14:52:47 <09gammafunk> I guess zot clock is closer to spelunky ghost, if anything 14:53:11 <02Darby> answer to why it wouldn't work is just that it can be dissatisfyingly spiky. that deep elf gladiator run where I found my second spellbook in Elf comes to mind. 14:53:40 <02Darby> (parchments are relatively less spiky than books but the same principle applies) 14:53:51 <06dolorous_84348> I'm suddenly thinking of someone collecting a massive bunch of gold under Gozag, then switching to Sif and buying out all the spellbook/parchment shops. 14:54:00 <06mumra> With parchments this is probably a lot more evened out tbh (but yeah) 14:54:12 <06dolorous_84348> Of course, you could pull something similar with a Gozag -> Zin switch, too. 14:54:24 <09gammafunk> it is very cute and thematic to imagine sif piety from finding spells 14:54:36 <09gammafunk> but the dist of monsters to kill and squares to discover is nice and even 14:56:21 <02Darby> for what it's worth, I am generally pro-explore piety, and feel that while mechanics do precede theme, there are points where the mismatch is too extreme (imagine Ely with kill piety) and so something needs to exist in that space. I am more inclined to the arguments that explore piety plays differently in useful ways, but the core of it is "I feel there needs to be something in that role that we're satisfied with" 14:56:58 <09hellmonk> I wonder what the ambient doom% would need to be. 1% per 300 aut? Idk how fast XP clears it. 14:57:51 <06dolorous_84348> I assume it would also be adjusted for the accursed who lose it at half rate? 14:58:10 <02Darby> (hence why I'm still okay with TSO's system, as a sort of lighter and more uncontroversial version of non-kill piety, if the alternative is kill piety on unfitting gods) 14:58:30 <06mumra> If floors got an increasing ambient doom level over time, it'd make the orb run somewhat interesting as you got more and more doom as you climb further back out the dungeon 14:59:35 <09hellmonk> There is probably a good "soft time pressure" design in here somewhere, to complement the "hard time pressure" of the Zot clock 15:00:40 <06mumra> (although, i still don't think players should be punished for backtracking a long way to buy a shopping list item for instance. We provide the tools to save shopping lists, and to travel there instantly, to then decide that this has a serious cost that is also rather opaque seems very unfair) 15:01:31 <02Darby> personally, I believe in local, short-term time pressure than global, long-term time pressure 15:01:53 <02Darby> (e.g. portal timers. they only matter sometimes.) 15:09:11 <04dracoomega> I mean, current piety decay isn't a significant enough of a clock that it needs replacing with anything (imo) and certainly not something as visible as this. But passive Doom accumulation was actually a running idea for the bottom of each Hell branch, post-hellpan roulette. (Came up a while ago with Acrobat and generally discussing how the bottom floors of each hell feel dramatically less pleasureful and could possibly use 15:09:12 something.) 15:39:56 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.34-a0-920-g8c381c6311 (34) 16:22:30 <03implojin> I think that if you wanna do time pressure in mainline crawl its best framed as a series of near-term positive incentives the player will be missing out on if they don't move forward; anything else just results in loud community backlash as players take the notion of being forced to move forward as a personal offense 16:25:05 <09hellmonk> level feelings, clearly 18:50:54 <12ebering> Antaeus says: "I've got some special loot down here but Dispater doesn't think we should let players have it and is gonna come destroy it if you don't get here soon." 19:18:10 -!- Myth is now known as Catskill 19:18:55 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4751 * 0.34-a0-806-g55188a3921: Fix a crash with poisonous vapors 10(62 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/55188a392146 19:19:09 -!- Catskill is now known as werekitten 20:30:35 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4751 * 0.34-a0-807-g14702047fc: Bump up mothkin apts slightly 10(71 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/14702047fcd8 22:35:31 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-920-g8c381c6311 (34) 22:58:40 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-920-g8c381c6311 23:13:36 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.34-a0-920-g8c381c6311 (34) 23:19:23 <06mumra> It's the classic carrot vs stick really 23:25:56 <06mumra> And the short-term incentives are always fun. But when I'm playing, I certainly always want to fully explore and clear every level. Piety decay does frequently punish playing that way, particularly if using autoexplorer (but the Zot clock is generous enough that it does not). 23:28:23 -!- daethoven1377 is now known as daethoven137 23:34:28 <04dracoomega> (I personally don't feel like piety decay is significant enough to 'punish' anything. The most noticeable effect of it, imo, is just confusing players who are wondering why their god powers sometimes randomly disappeared) 23:34:57 <04dracoomega> And we could probably get rid of the whole weird piety hysteresis system we have at the moment too, if we removed decay 23:35:31 <06mumra> Hmm, does that maybe make book gifting an active ability? Which I could see as an ability just below Exegesis. So there's a tradeoff, requesting too many books takes your best ability offline, but you can build up your library as you choose (and maybe offer a choice of three books or parchments for the ability) 23:36:01 <02Darby> oh, I think we all assumed you'd just get the book gifts same as normal, but piety gain in general would be rebalanced around it 23:36:06 <04dracoomega> (I've already voiced clear support of removing decay with no compensation beyond slightly nudging down piety gain rates to leave the overall game-long rate approximately the same as before. It's just that doing so takes a little bit of time and attention, and I've been busy/bogged down with other stuff ^^; ) 23:36:56 <06mumra> The problem is, the system is so opaque enough that i felt piety decay was responsible for me receiving barely a trickle of books, when in fact it was maybe just piety growth wasn't happening fast enough 23:37:11 <06mumra> Or maybe i was just getting bad rolls on the gifts 23:37:47 <02Darby> Sif is definitely notorious for making you feel piety decay during gift timeout since they're a fast-decay god that puts you under gift timeout for a large portion of the time 23:38:01 <04dracoomega> Yeah, Sif highlights this way more than any other god due to gift timeout stuff 23:38:07 <02Darby> it is almost entirely Sif-specific, though 23:38:29 <02Darby> (even though other gods technically have piety decay and gift timeout, the quantities are just so different in practice) 23:38:29 <04dracoomega> In most other cases, all it really is is like "You get 5% less piety in the long-term, but in a way that sometimes confuses people." 23:38:45 <04dracoomega> (Might not even be 5%. I haven't mathed it.) 23:38:48 <02Monkooky> also has very strange interactions with level openness 23:38:53 <06mumra> Yep on an Oka run recently I was literally showered with ammo# 23:39:31 <02Monkooky> you get very noticeably more piety in shoals than spider, even not accounting for ocean 23:39:49 <04dracoomega> I... think that is literally untrue 23:40:02 <04dracoomega> And that it's based on a percentage of open space explored 23:40:09 <06mumra> Sif gave me like ... 3 or 4 books, after worshipping at an early altar (literally D:2 i think) and clearing the whole of D, Lair, Orc, Swamp and some of Spider (where I died to bane-multiplied ghost moths) 23:40:19 <04dracoomega> Also: the ocean definitely gives 0 explore piety 23:40:40 <04dracoomega> But I am fairly sure in general that the piety you get per tile is based on what percentage of the valid level space it accounts for 23:43:56 <04dracoomega> Yup, I have confirmed this again. (env.density is calculated on level gen, representing how many tiles the level has which count for explore piety, and piety gain is divided by this as you explore) 23:44:06 <04dracoomega> So you should get the same piety for one small room as one giant floor 23:44:55 <02Darby> ... huh. that is against all my experiences, including this quick test where I got 9 piety from exploring a small Crypt:2 and 38 piety from exploring the forest Crypt:3 end 23:45:46 <02Darby> (both starting at 15 for good measure, since there are stepdowns at 4* and 6*) 23:45:57 <04dracoomega> ...huh? 23:46:07 <04dracoomega> Is it not working the way it looks like it is? 23:46:26 <04dracoomega> Because it clearly is supposed to give the same piety per-level, no matter its size or shape 23:46:56 <04dracoomega> I mean, piety gain is fairly randomized. Want to try that a couple more times? 23:47:12 <02Darby> yeah, I guess I can just go to hell then 23:47:13 <02Darby> and run a second test with the small and large floors 23:47:52 <02Darby> yeah, still significant difference 23:48:40 <02Darby> (this time 8 piety from Geh:6 and 21 piety from Geh:7) 23:48:47 <04dracoomega> Well, that is concerning 23:49:13 <04dracoomega> ...oh 23:49:14 <04dracoomega> Huh 23:49:26 <04dracoomega> %git 786489fb3b6cd283482a34ea7d3f6b3499138240 23:49:26 <04Cerebot> PleasingFungus * 0.16-a0-3655-g786489fb3b: De-scale exploration piety (11 years ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/786489fb3b6c 23:49:47 <04dracoomega> Then what is this remaining code even doing? 23:52:38 <04dracoomega> Oh, env.density is still used for exploration trap chance? (And you.exploration is used for... literally nothing?) 23:52:51 <02Darby> ... huh, I certainly didn't know that part 23:55:36 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-920-g8c381c6311