00:14:23 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4751 * 0.34-a0-786-gefdadc4b98: Partially revert 1e1c8678 10(54 seconds ago, 2 files, 0+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/efdadc4b98e7 00:17:36 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4751 * 0.34-a0-786-gbd1d8c3769: Partially revert 1e1c8678 10(4 minutes ago, 2 files, 0+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bd1d8c376968 00:58:04 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4751 * 0.34-a0-787-g4a5b2d0c72: Don't tabcast when attacking allies 10(13 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4a5b2d0c7250 00:59:25 -!- indigaz25 is now known as indigaz2 01:10:54 <06m​umra> @dolorous_84348 I'm not convinced that first person particularly the norm anywhere. If i look at items.txt or unrand.txt, I feel like 3rd person is more often the case ... which makes sense as the properties will generally apply to a monster using it as well 01:14:38 <06m​umra> I'm not sure it's particularly necessary to be consistent, whatever sounds better at the time (but I think in some cases the 1st person descriptions could be confusing or ambiguous if you inspected the item while a monster was using it) 01:38:15 <06m​umra> Having said that, we can't actually inspect the weapon while a monster is holding it. Some of the clarification is great e.g. the fact that pain scales with necromancy skill. It's unfortunate that things are so frequently asymmetrical and there's no good way to differentiate player vs monster handling of a given item or ego without things getting a bit wordy and awkward. Which is probably why things are inconsistent in the first place. I 01:38:16 wonder if 3rd person is best for describing things that are true for both player and monster, and then follow with 1st person for any clarifications that are necessary for the player. Spells of course are also rather inconsistent and also vary between first and third dependending on whether the spell is player only or also monster castable ... 01:44:24 <06d​olorous_84348> I wasn't initially sure; it's just that we seem to be moving toward artprops for things, and they're all in the first person, and mixing first and third person seems rather awkward, especially now that the egos should be translatable, and jumping between first and third seems odd. One reason I went ahead for now is because we can't inspect an item a monster is holding, so it isn't a problem (at least for the moment). As for 01:44:24 your idea of third person as default and first person as player-specific, it's good, but some bits will probably have to be moved to separate paragraphs (e.g. the pain brand stuff) to avoid confusion, and all the artprop descriptions will need rewriting to be in the third person. How far do we go in the name of consistency, I guess, is the question here. 01:46:44 consistency? in my crawl? 01:47:11 <03i​mplojin> :content: 01:47:49 <06d​olorous_84348> I know. I went for the approach that would take the least amount of rewriting, at least for now. 01:49:10 <06d​olorous_84348> Of course, moving egos to the database means no rebuilding (aside from the usual "version number change," of course). 01:53:07 <06d​olorous_84348> And moving artprop descriptions to the database would be ideal, but they'd have to be reworded a bit anyway to put any references to non-constant numbers on separate lines (since they'd still be displayed by the code). 01:55:42 <06m​umra> An ideal situation I suppose would be that we could inspect weapons from monster x-v but that would be rather signification work (or at least, show the ego information under their damage line, which might be slightly easier) 01:56:40 <06d​olorous_84348> Yes. There are so many things that would be ideal but would require significant work and/or rewriting, and as a prerequisite enough understanding of the underlying code to make sure it'. 01:58:40 <06d​olorous_84348> And having non-artprop jewellery descriptions and artprop jewellery descriptions in the database at the same time would be rather messy, considering that when the former get moved to the latter, things would shift again, so it'd likely be better to wait until they're all ported to artprops, but that's more work and complexity. 02:00:31 <06d​olorous_84348> And I really need to figure out how to hook egos up to the help database anyway. 02:02:17 <06d​olorous_84348> Although whether each kind of ego should get its own help database section is another question. 02:03:44 <06d​olorous_84348> If so, that'd require three new hotkeys, one for each section. 02:03:52 -!- HeniMiku_ is now known as HeniMiku 02:03:53 <06d​olorous_84348> Among other things. 02:06:32 <06d​olorous_84348> And I don't know how long it'd take, and the main reason I'm up right now is because I can't sleep at the moment. 02:06:40 <06d​olorous_84348> But that's a bit off topic. 02:08:46 <06m​umra> Sure, no stress 🙂 02:10:15 <06d​olorous_84348> No problem. On a separate note, regarding artprops, does anyone know if there's some way to make objstat produce stats on what properties show up on an artefact, so one could hypothetically verify that a certain ego has an actual chance of showing up (if one were trying to port an ego type to artprops)? Or am I misunderstanding what objstat is for, or is it the wrong tool to do that kind of thing? 02:23:38 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4751 * 0.34-a0-788-gfa8dc95df5: Replace monster type check in mons_is_always_safe 10(19 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fa8dc95df5da 02:27:17 I think objstat outputs a bunch of extra pagest athe end more or less for that purpose? (in general, perhaps not this specific case) 02:27:22 *at the 02:28:02 :wall 02:28:07 damn 02:53:05 <06d​olorous_84348> Thanks. I'll have to check; it just takes ages to do all 100 iterations. 03:32:34 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5261-gd9800d219b 05:10:30 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.34-a0-906-g94098a1 (34) 06:02:01 <06m​umra> @regret-⸸nde※ Crypt shop is very nice 06:02:03 <06m​umra> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1424381119847202827/image.png?ex=68e3bdca&is=68e26c4a&hm=afd80789cb52694108b68b2ae32a949529466f51e0e04679c5a6b064d47c7570& 06:03:11 <06m​umra> I already had lajatang of order and fully invested in staves but i think this tempts me to switch to M&F (luckily there's a manual in another shop) 06:03:25 <06m​umra> There was a really nice ring here as well but I bought it already 06:07:11 <06m​umra> certainly the objective was achieved of actually having something to spend my thousands of gold on 09:16:35 <09g​ammafunk> Slightly Bent plate armour, how appropriate 09:16:38 <09g​ammafunk> only +0 after all 09:16:54 <09g​ammafunk> I need to ponder whether there's a better design for the Death ego 10:55:20 <06m​umra> Something where the enhancer actually charges up from killing stuff? 11:03:46 <09g​ammafunk> there's a question of whether the double-edged design is an interesting aspect to keep. It's probably worth considering if there could be some other kind of linked downside 11:04:08 <09g​ammafunk> rather than a straight perk (in addition to the necromancy school wizardry, which is obviously necessary for the ego to work at all) 11:04:47 <09g​ammafunk> but enchancement isn't the best upside to pair with a downside in that spellpower can be fairly secondary to the school 11:04:56 <09g​ammafunk> due to how much of it revolves around ally creation 11:13:04 <09h​ellmonk> I'm open to just revising it into command 2, if that would work better 11:20:04 <06m​umra> Something that passively buffs necromantic allies then perhaps 11:23:44 <06m​umra> "when you injure living, demonic or holy beings, your necromantic thralls will be healed proportionally to the damage done" 11:24:15 <06m​umra> (damage only counts when done directly by your hand) 11:24:54 <12g​e0ff> or make your undead allies explode on death, dealing negative energy damage 11:26:05 <09g​ammafunk> both of those sound potentially more interesting than a simple spellpower enhancer. I am curious about this downside aspect though. In some sense that feels very linked to the upside we might give 11:26:07 <09g​ammafunk> ??death ego 11:26:08 <04C​erebot> death ego[1/1]: Heavy Armour ego that gives necro enhancer+wiz but non-necro spells also cost HP in addition to MP to cast. 11:26:22 <09g​ammafunk> the downside is currently an HP cost for for non-necro spells 11:26:24 <06d​olorous_84348> Regarding necromantic ally buffing, just imagine a player who's an Yred worshipper and who's also taken up necromancy. They could wear the ally-buffing death armor and hurl the lit torch at their allies to buff them further: a nice case of overkill (or over-undeath?). 11:27:07 <09g​ammafunk> now you have a problem here where those spells don't have a wizardry boost, hence how likely are you to be able to cast them 11:27:43 <09g​ammafunk> in a sense it's very on-theme to have an evil sort of downside, but 11:27:56 <06m​umra> or, you reabsorb some of your allies essence when they die, restoring MP and/or HP, or maybe releasing blasts of negative energy around you when it charges up enough 11:28:06 <09g​ammafunk> this one feels like it doesn't work as well. maybe it's intentional/interesting that it applies relatively seldomly 11:29:11 <09g​ammafunk> one thing that's sort of intrinsically connected to this ego 11:29:16 <09g​ammafunk> is the idea that because you're in heavy armour 11:29:21 <09g​ammafunk> you're going to be using melee 11:29:33 <09g​ammafunk> so perhaps this upside for necro should be somehow connected to melee 11:29:40 <09g​ammafunk> your melee specifically, that is 11:29:55 <06m​umra> yeah, that's why i'm thinking that your melee will heal your allies (or buff in someway) 11:30:02 <09g​ammafunk> obviously heavy necro spell users can just use the armour for ac and keep their necro spells 11:30:16 <09g​ammafunk> but that is perhaps a less interesting case (if they're not doing much melee) 11:30:42 <06m​umra> ??resonance 11:30:42 <04C​erebot> resonance[1/1]: Heavy armour ego that gives 2% extra melee damage per forgecraft skill in addition to making forgecraft spells easier to cast. 11:30:43 <09g​ammafunk> yeah, healing your undead based on your melee could be a subtle enough perk 11:30:47 <06m​umra> ??command 11:30:48 <04C​erebot> command[1/2]: Heavy armour ego that gives increases the spell power of Summoning spells and makes them easier to cast. The effects scale with Armour skill and are very large with high skill. 11:31:05 <09g​ammafunk> the resonance perk of 2% per forge skill is quite good actually 11:31:06 <06m​umra> neither of those egos have downsides of course 11:31:17 <02D​arby> for what it's worth, said perk is not far off from Beogh's 11:31:21 <06m​umra> yeah resonance was great on my last forgewright 11:31:34 <09g​ammafunk> death upside doesn't have to be quite so strong, but it probably shouldn't be very subtle 11:31:40 <02D​arby> who also heals your orcs when you deal damage (though not restricted to melee) 11:31:49 <09g​ammafunk> ...that's a beogh thing? 11:32:02 <09g​ammafunk> I had no idea 11:32:15 <09g​ammafunk> why don't people tell me these things?!?! 11:33:00 <12g​e0ff> fr: a flashy vfx when Beogh heals your borcs, so the players finally notice that 11:33:35 <09g​ammafunk> play a 3d cutscene of your orcs rejoicing as a shower of sparkling healing magic falls onto them 11:35:06 <06m​umra> how about: when your allies die, the armour reabsorbs some of their essence, empowering your next melee attack(s) with additional unholy damage 11:35:57 <02D​arby> there is certainly something necromancy-thematic about being rewarded for your allies dying, though I've not thought much about any gameplay edge cases 11:36:30 <12g​e0ff> %git 82142fbd4 11:36:31 <04C​erebot> regret-index * 0.33-a0-409-g82142fbd45: More specific spell icon / effect tiles (11 months ago, 21 files, 144+ 105-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/82142fbd4520 11:37:26 <12g​e0ff> ^-- a 3d cutscene is also fine, but something similar to these recently added vfxes could also work 11:38:03 <12g​e0ff> (flash_tile(..., vfx_tile)) 11:38:32 <06m​umra> (i think actually it'd be nice if it charges up and after 2 or 3 allies die your next attack will release an explosion of whatever unholy damage type. then it's a bit more fun when it happens, and futher different from the resonance damage boost) 11:39:06 <06d​olorous_84348> Would you get the empowerment only when an ally dies at the hands of others, or could you also be (more) evil and get it by deliberately killing one of your own allies? 11:39:27 <09g​ammafunk> that's an interesting direction, I do like the idea that it's increasing melee damage, like resonance, but in a different way 11:40:26 <09g​ammafunk> I wonder if you could extend it to be "damage from any derived undead or any direct damage necromancy spell" 11:40:36 <09g​ammafunk> having it charge could be a way to balance it to not be too over the top 11:40:55 <09g​ammafunk> which becomes a real concern with allies and dot necro effects (assuming we include those) 11:41:13 <09g​ammafunk> not sure about the HP-costed downside 11:41:56 <06m​umra> maybe change the downside to be: if you don't use up the melee charge, then it'll explode on you 11:42:40 <06m​umra> or if you let it build up too much without using it (and obviously, prevent you trivially using it up on firewood or your own allies or w/e) 11:44:36 <06m​umra> so you need to stay actively in combat and can't let allies do everything 11:45:55 <06m​umra> maybe makes it too risky tho 11:57:54 <09h​ellmonk> I've been meaning to take the resonance damage % down to 1.5 btw 11:57:59 <09h​ellmonk> just haven't got around to it 15:21:00 <09g​ammafunk> yeah, seems fine 15:22:10 <09g​ammafunk> yeah, I think anything that requires melee in order to avoid a downside as it encourages weird antics with keeping trivial monsters around 15:22:17 <09g​ammafunk> and I think it's likely to not be very fun in general 15:39:50 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.34-a0-906-g94098a172f (34) 16:21:01 <06m​umra> maybe just lose any built up charge if you use non-necro spells. so sure you can diversify, you're just not getting the main upside 16:33:51 <09g​ammafunk> hrm 16:33:59 <09g​ammafunk> some good starting ideas for sure, thanks 22:09:05 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4751 * 0.34-a0-789-gfbc60332fc: Moth: 3.0+1.0 You Can (Not) Manual Cast 10(44 seconds ago, 14 files, 40+ 61-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fbc60332fcc9 22:12:17 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4751 * 0.34-a0-790-gad0c535401: checkwhite 10(59 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ad0c53540179 23:46:36 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-906-g94098a172f