00:59:25 -!- indigaz28 is now known as indigaz2 03:24:42 03tianmaster02 {dolorous} 07* 0.34-a0-863-g0d9fc5886c: Add menu functionality for Gozag's potion petitions and merchant calls. 10(4 days ago, 3 files, 313+ 38-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0d9fc5886c60 03:32:10 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5261-gd9800d219b 05:29:14 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.34-a0-863-g0d9fc58 (34) 08:52:57 03person5060502 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4812 * 0.34-a0-849-g31f1b7f40a: Fix !Berserk description 10(22 seconds ago, 1 file, 5+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/31f1b7f40ad9 09:12:12 03person5060502 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4812 * 0.34-a0-850-g541a39aba3: Tweak Berserk status description 10(46 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/541a39aba3c7 12:33:32 03dolorous02 07* 0.34-a0-864-g4977470e7c: Update CREDITS. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4977470e7c82 12:43:08 03LiciTheCrawler02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4769 * 0.34-a0-805-g5c98f222d0: Update based on feedback 10(6 minutes ago, 4 files, 68+ 22-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5c98f222d08c 14:07:10 03LiciTheCrawler02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4769 * 0.34-a0-806-g2f764283d7: Convert function to static 10(21 minutes ago, 2 files, 16+ 17-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2f764283d787 14:07:10 03LiciTheCrawler02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4769 * 0.34-a0-807-g5bbefe3033: Unbrace 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 9+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5bbefe30336b 14:23:15 03LiciTheCrawler02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4769 * 0.34-a0-808-g720f9d3ad9: Clarify the description 10(76 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/720f9d3ad92e 14:41:22 03LiciTheCrawler02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4769 * 0.34-a0-809-ge2cd53636e: Make hat require visible monsters 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e2cd53636e62 14:44:34 03dolorous02 07* 0.34-a0-865-g4b6faae6c0: Fix typo. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4b6faae6c01c 14:45:39 03dolorous02 07[stone_soup-0.33] * 0.33.1-5-g432fff1de5: Fix typo. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/432fff1de521 15:14:00 04Build failed for 08stone_soup-0.33 @ 432fff1d 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/18111626988 15:34:51 03LiciTheCrawler02 {Implojin} 07* 0.34-a0-866-g089dd02ed7: feat: Rework Mask of the Dragon 10(4 weeks ago, 3 files, 75+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/089dd02ed79b 15:39:51 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.34-a0-865-g4b6faae6c0 (34) 19:33:28 03Implojin02 07* 0.34-a0-867-g7c3ebb11f0: Add baubles and gems to wizmode &o menu 10(3 minutes ago, 3 files, 7+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7c3ebb11f0b4 20:58:42 03person5060502 {dolorous} 07* 0.34-a0-868-g7f2bc5db9b: Update !Berserk and Berserk status description. 10(4 days ago, 2 files, 10+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7f2bc5db9bae 21:09:25 <09hellmonk> is there a reason the classed deep trolls don't have fast regen but the plain ones do 21:13:15 <03implojin> simply add it and call any player who complains a coward imo 21:13:37 <09hellmonk> tempting 21:18:56 <04dracoomega> See. This is good evidence that they don't regenerate enough as it is for this to go overlooked for so many years. (I actually had no idea that what you just said was the case, but had independently wanted to nudge up plain troll monster regen a little since even earlygame it's felt fairly invisible and is theoretically one of the distinguishing points of them) 21:19:46 <09hellmonk> I believe fast regen is just 1hp/turn for most monsters, so yeah it is fairly hard to notice unless kiting them for an extended period of time 21:20:18 <09hellmonk> used to be noticeable that they'd heal before you if pillardancing them extensively 21:21:40 <09hellmonk> for early trolls specifically it might be worthwhile to adjust their max hp or defenses or damage down simultaneously, since they can be dangerous to engage early for melee characters 21:23:49 <04dracoomega> Yeah, possibly 21:36:00 <02Monkooky> is combat relevant regen actually interesting though regular trolls already have enough regen that kiting them is a poor proposition 21:38:42 <02Monkooky> and I don't see how you play differently wrt trolls if their defenses shift to regen 21:39:41 <06regret-⸸nde※> People notice demonic crawlers working the way they do all the time. 21:44:27 <02Monkooky> I'm trying to think to what extent I actually make decisions based off their regeneration 21:46:21 <02Monkooky> the regen is, of course, very noticeable, but I can't remember any fights with them with enough clarity to say if I like did anything different from just hitting a wolf spider or w/e 21:48:28 <06regret-⸸nde※> Something functioning as minimally as "makes somebody otherwise relying on spell-sourced DoT burn through piety or wands to actually kill them", and "opt to not let this close into melee at all since you won't win with your given resources", is fine for a basic fundamental gimmick like monster regeneration on a mid-D monster. We haven't purged every vanilla creature, after all. 22:01:41 <02Monkooky> Hmm. I think realistically there are very few characters who will go from 'early trolls are allowed to close to melee' to 'not that', since the time to kill's only really going to be different for characters who would be taking many turns to kill 1regen-trolls, and trolls do enough damage that you can't spend many turns in melee It does change the calculus for spellcasters though, and makes wanding them down more appealing 22:03:12 <06regret-⸸nde※> Quite a few top-of-starting-book spells have short ranges, like Ramparts, Flame Wave, Surprising Crocodile and Seismosaurus, Stone Arrow.... 22:04:13 <02Monkooky> sorry, I'm not making the connection there? 22:08:10 <02Darby> ultimately, regen is just like any other number, like AC or EV or damage. doesn't drastically change your decision-making in small amounts but may subtly change in for specific builds, does change it a lot in big cases like demonic crawler regen or ogre damage, but is a lot more granular across the game nonetheless. 22:08:11 <02Darby> I don't think there's much of a complexity budget for modulating basic monster numbers, player trolls have noticeable regen so players will expect monster trolls to have similar, but since player-monster asymmetry isn't enforced, we can work with the fact that it's harder to notice monster regen than player regen and give monster trolls more of it. at worst it's a lateral move, at best it's a fair improvement. 22:15:26 <02Monkooky> I am wondering if this works with the wider placement range of trolls. 22:16:17 <02Monkooky> ....I'm also now wondering if my memory is dated? 22:16:51 <02Monkooky> Do trolls still show up in orc cause I'm just realizing that I don't remember seeing orc trolls for a good while 22:18:06 <06regret-⸸nde※> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1422452423292751932/image.png?ex=68dcb98d&is=68db680d&hm=b441e52c4bed3cf3ad5369c480404e77c70ca79e75499213cea7db82414ca1e7& 22:23:32 <03implojin> huh 22:23:34 <03implojin> you know 22:23:53 <03implojin> an armataur unique that regens more the more you try to kite it would actually probably work as a monster? 22:23:58 <03implojin> dangit now i need to implement monster rampage 22:25:00 <03implojin> past me was like "i'll put this off until some design makes sense" 22:25:04 <02Monkooky> anyways the point I was gonna raise before that bout of dementia was that shifting defenses to regen makes them even more popcorn once the player is stronger- a troll that's a fightable but scary threat on D9 is complete popcorn on D13 22:26:01 <02Monkooky> like, more than that's already true with defenses that don't rely on living multiple turns to matter 22:31:25 <06regret-⸸nde※> We... already have D monsters that are pre-Lair threats and post-Lair filler. Just looking at mon-pick-data.h, I could pick out acid dragons and vampire mosquitoes. 22:31:44 <04dracoomega> I feel like you may be anticipating a more dramatic change to their stats than I was actually planning. It just felt like if they're going to have fast regen that it would be nice to have enough that you could at least notice a little. It may not be terribly different than AC in the average case, but it does feel at least a little different (and, more importantly, feels very 'troll') (Mostly, I doubt this meaningfully changes the 22:31:44 ways or degrees to which something becomes harmless later on) 22:32:47 <02Monkooky> Ok I guess I disagree with the premise that you don't notice troll regen as it stands 22:33:19 <02Monkooky> It's certainly not to the degree of demonic crawlers, but it is already enough to be visible and to make poison a little sad 22:33:42 <03implojin> i don't think that reasonably low-ish amounts of regen are going to meaningfully affect playfeel beyond "huh that's a little harder to kill", and the old regen was more noticeable in very old versions where player kiting was easier. with the addition of aoos it makes sense to bump monster regen slightly as long as we still want it to be a thing, imo 22:35:11 <02Darby> (and as long as monsters like parghit exist, it always will have relevance) 22:35:23 <02Monkooky> but yeah I've been arguing against something nobody's planning, so I'm gonna count myself as the only winner (and participant) of this argument 22:35:38 <04dracoomega> I do think it specifically makes poison darts ineffective against them and I feel like I haven't had a character doing anything else even notice it in ages, I think 22:35:42 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-868-g7f2bc5db9b (34) 22:36:00 <02Darby> and I am a big fan of poison darts on ogres 22:36:21 <02Darby> so it helps widen the gap between them and trolls 22:36:33 <02Monkooky> I noticed it with an IMB scrollform armataur 22:37:03 <04dracoomega> (Honestly, I'd kind of like to yaml-ify regen amounts instead of needing a flag and code in a switch case somewhere, while I'm at it) 22:37:09 <04dracoomega> Feels sensible to encode that way 22:37:34 <04dracoomega> (I am not doing this right away. I am still locked in mortal combat with my last project idea, somehow) 22:38:06 <02Monkooky> but I guess that's probably recency bias cause you're right that I can't think of other non-dart examples where I noticed the regen 22:58:46 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-868-g7f2bc5db9b 23:00:36 <07wizardike> I've noticed regen on regular trolls but its not noticeable on deep trolls 23:07:49 Stable (0.33) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.33.1-5-g432fff1de5 23:30:28 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.34-a0-868-g7f2bc5db9b (34) 23:42:46 03dolorous02 07* 0.34-a0-869-g68a8e45f29: Remove redundant check, and adjust comments. 10(84 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/68a8e45f2931 23:55:37 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-868-g7f2bc5db9b