00:10:33 -!- ert6 is now known as ert 00:59:24 -!- indigaz21 is now known as indigaz2 02:30:15 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-808-gcbb4ff4ceb: Fix Bane of the Dilettante not affecting unarmed combat (various) 10(77 seconds ago, 2 files, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cbb4ff4cebfa 03:32:58 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-809-g9ab3afe60a: Mention Bane of the Dilettante in the skill menu when affected by it 10(32 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9ab3afe60a09 03:34:34 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5261-gd9800d219b 04:09:05 -!- ssm__ is now known as ssm_ 04:39:03 -!- nabru- is now known as nabru 05:10:00 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.34-a0-809-g9ab3afe (34) 13:35:07 <02tzer0> My server has been innundated with bots crawling the ttyrecs and shit 13:35:12 <02tzer0> This was killing performance 13:35:34 <02tzer0> Anyone know of a good way to trick these bots into mazes without interfering with legitimate use? 13:39:58 <12ge0ff> You can disallow everything for all user-agents in robots.txt 13:43:20 <12ge0ff> User-agent: * Disallow: / 15:47:56 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.34-a0-809-g9ab3afe60a (34) 17:22:33 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-810-g73db0cba50: Fix the Lernaean Hydra destroying stone walls (regret-index) 10(4 minutes ago, 5 files, 43+ 18-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/73db0cba503f 17:22:33 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-811-gd9faca2a39: Fix an Arenasprint softlock (regret-index) 10(85 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d9faca2a3903 17:40:27 04Build failed for 08master @ d9faca2a 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/17844756683 18:00:39 -!- wvc1 is now known as wvc 18:04:03 03dolorous02 07* 0.34-a0-812-g7fd328712a: Unbrace. 10(81 seconds ago, 1 file, 7+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7fd328712af3 19:24:33 https://imgur.com/a/wMwgekh 19:24:39 Version 5! 19:25:01 it retains that lowly newt innocence while having frills 20:15:48 <07acrobat> continuing with this, I tried to cheated zot:5 again without using alarm trap this time. and I could kill almost all the monsters in the lungs (except orb guardians) without waking up tesseract by reading ?noise a few times and just waiting for thousands of turns at the entrance. I'm not sure if this is practical with piety decay god. however, If I'm worshiping god with no piety decay or if piety decay is removed in the future, I 20:15:49 believe almost all characters could exploit this very easily without any special condition. 20:15:49 <07acrobat> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1418435380977336492/1.PNG?ex=68ce1c64&is=68cccae4&hm=6ea12a06a99ccc7f6e0c62b29f0cec115649f4d7c4a44cf11a46acd7a8f1cb74& 20:18:16 <06regret-⸸nde※> ...Due to the permarock, I'm pretty sure none of the inner lungs should wake up without a shout chain? 20:19:19 <07acrobat> I read ?noise in here. I think shout chian happens very easily? 20:19:19 <07acrobat> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1418436252427882506/2.PNG?ex=68ce1d33&is=68cccbb3&hm=8b9d9380f0149fbb5ad0ff45e34d2f8612ca0cc869fbc186f0813748142c9ec2& 20:19:57 <06regret-⸸nde※> It's not guaranteed. 20:20:36 <06regret-⸸nde※> (...There's a pretty good argument we should just make most of the vault permarock.) 20:21:32 <07acrobat> I can read ?noise and rest 100 tunrs to make monsters forget me and then ?noise again. so I can keep try until shout chain happen, right? 20:22:14 <07acrobat> there are more than enough ?noise in one game 20:23:53 <06regret-⸸nde※> If the area you posted has permarock instead of stone, it'd make it so one would have to actually approach the entrances to the lungs (and thus see seven orb guardians at once) to actually use the scroll of noise any effectively. 20:24:42 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Permarock completely blocks all levels of noise.) 20:24:59 <07acrobat> approaching the entrances to the lungs and seeing seven orb guardians isn't really dangerous though 20:25:02 <07acrobat> for most char 20:25:41 <07acrobat> you can very easily read ?noise and retreat back 20:26:45 <06regret-⸸nde※> I don't want to exactly just throw my hands up and give up, but we had several approaches previously trying to avoid this sort of cheese and they were rejected because people got overly anxious about the timer activating at all, and this isn't really suggesting that there's any way to do anything short of just activating it as soon as an orb guardian hits the player. 20:26:47 <07acrobat> unless you are somthing like formici^chei without translocation spells 20:27:37 <06regret-⸸nde※> (That was not a serious suggestion, for the record.) 20:28:26 <06regret-⸸nde※> I know players who are already an outlier of skill at the game were fine with the noise-activated version of tesseracts. 20:29:13 <07acrobat> making all monsters placed inside the lungs patrolling as dracoomega said can't solve this problem? 20:29:38 <06regret-⸸nde※> Random monsters generate in the lungs using the normal level generation. 20:30:01 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Patrolling behaviour has other awkward consequences around making it easier to have them stop chasing in other circumstances.) 20:30:50 <06regret-⸸nde※> The entire effectiveness of the design and how it ends up taking so long in the first place is that monster pathfinding is very bad at trying to leave the lungs unless they're directly aware of the player. 20:33:29 <07acrobat> > there's any way to do anything short of just activating it as soon as an orb guardian hits the player. maybe this ins't bad 20:34:25 <07acrobat> @??orb guardian 20:34:26 <04Câ€‹erebot> ansi Orb Guardian ([0;35mX[0m) | Spd: 14 | HD: 15 | HP: 74-98 | AC/EV: 13/13 | Dam: 45 | [0;36mdoors[0m, fighter, see invisible | Res: [0;35mwill(120)[0m | XP: 1760 | Sz: Giant | Int: human. 20:34:27 <06regret-⸸nde※> I'm doubtful it'd be enough! 20:34:53 <07acrobat> oh spriggan is faster 20:36:54 <06regret-⸸nde※> (An actual, not-off-the-cuff approach I can think of is putting some special runed door at the very entrance to the vault, opening that activates the tesseracts and removes the door, and then going forward with more permarock encasing to prevent the side-of-lung noise strategy.) 20:37:31 <07acrobat> that is interesting 20:38:08 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Either way, there clearly needs to be more noiseproofing there, so...) 20:39:35 <07acrobat> oh and I also want to give some feedback on mountainshell/clockroach 20:39:46 <07acrobat> but I should play more than 2 games 20:45:09 -!- adept78 is now known as adept7 20:48:39 <02Darby> I feel like being able to shatter / overgrow / corrupt through the stone past the foyer has some value, but the interaction with this noise strategy is rough 20:49:09 <06regret-⸸nde※> Shattering through the stone in the foyer was always a good advantage for using blinking scrolls to ninja the orb. 20:49:18 <06regret-⸸nde※> That's already kept either way. 20:50:41 <02Darby> the Hall of Zot's permarock / stone distribution certainly wasn't designed around tesseracts, so it makes sense to re-evaluate 20:54:37 <02Darby> (though, thinking about it, I'm not sure the noise attenuation values through different materials were designed with strong thought as to how it makes specific vaults play out either, but it feels spookier to change that since out of over 5.5k vaults, surely some do rely on e.g. stone mostly attenuating noise vs permarock completely blocking it) 20:54:47 <06regret-⸸nde※> Poison and clouds having "sources", while invisible to the player, is crucial to either tracking lots of things like piety / experience blame already. Clouds especially can't try to have flavour reasons for ignoring warding, which is trying to be extremely mechanical more than flavour based. Whether or not mountainshells need a full-screen seperate version of Seismic Stomp or to be speed 10 is seperate of any concerns about the 20:54:47 exact tracking behaviours of warding. 20:55:36 <06regret-⸸nde※> It is known that most mage starts won't care about clockroaches- they're meant to be tutorial monsters and not innately hyper-lethal. 21:17:56 <04dracoomega> I am not certain this fixes the fundamental issue, as I understand it. Like, yes, it makes it somewhat harder, but I guess the essential problem is that the tesseract activation condition will reliably return to one part of the map and everything else can eventually (maybe outrageously slowly, but eventually) move to the other part of the map on its own where you can kill it without the orb guardians being involved. Making you 21:17:56 have to move in a little deeper to do this does make it a little more difficult, but shout chaining can go all the way from the middle chamber and loop around. Maybe not on every seed, but.... It's just kind of frustrating since, of course, this sort of thing is the entire sort of situation that tesseracts were supposed to improve in the first place. (And they clearly do, for most players, in most normal-ish ways of approaching Zot:5. But being able to 21:17:57 do this at all is unfortunately troublesome.) I agree with Index that making all the monsters inside the vault patrolling is awkward, since many random spawns inside will still not be patrolling, and it also makes other monsters have a harder time chasing the player in ways that generally feel undesirable. 'Orb guardian hitting player' also feels bad to me since the entire point of liking it to killing an orb guardian is that it was agentive on the 21:17:57 player part. One of the most negative points of the original implementation is that players sometimes felt out of control over when it started (accurately, of course!). I did actually consider sealing off the whole vault with something like Index's special runed door suggestion there, but: it feels a shame for there to be zero risk of orb vault contents spilling out into normal fights until you open it and how is that supposed to work if you get 21:17:58 teleported inside? 21:19:28 <06regret-⸸nde※> "Opening a runed door or killing an orb guardian activates the tesseracts" can technically handle teleport cases, I guess? It is less elegant yet once more.... 21:24:14 <07acrobat> oh you saw the chat. I wasn't trying to give feedback on warding and poison/cloud. I just wanted to say that mountainshell's speed is so slow that it's just annoying than actually threatening. I think they can only be a threat in some rare cases where I'm chei worshiper/naga or where I can't escape safly because of shaft/tele trap. if I'm fragile mage and find it difficult to safely kill mountainshell, I can just run away. it's just 21:24:14 annoying that it keeps interfering with auto-exploration. I know there are other slow monsters. but most of them feels much more relevant than mountainshell. for example, (alligator) snapping turtle: they spawns in shoals, so there is water everywhere which makes them fater than player. and there is many mesm monsters in shoals who can prevent retreat. torpor snail: they makes player even slower as soon as they entered in los gastronok: they are slow 21:24:15 but they have very strong los range airstrike. so there is some chance to kill player before they retreat. honestly, I expect that even 10 speed may not be good enough for mountainshell to be good enough threat. because it's still easy to escape while they use seismic stomp. I haven't played it enough yet to be confident in this opinion, but I wanted to give some feedback like this. 21:25:24 <02Darby> orb guardian spillout is a nice tactical element but it's possible that it's not nice enough, when considering every other endvault already has this dynamic, to be necessary to preserve while making Z:5 more unique 21:26:02 <02Darby> getting teleported into the lungs (or really any explore trap) does feel more complicated 21:26:30 <02Darby> not sure what's best there 21:26:48 <04dracoomega> honestly, I expect that even 10 speed may not be good enough for mountainshell to be good enough threat. I am curious how they would be that much worse than Lair hydra in this respect at speed 10 (er, worse in the sense of 'a nuissance that won't actually kill you'). Hydra can't do any damage outside of melee range. Mountainshells are at least range 4. 21:27:36 <06regret-⸸nde※> Gastronok is not really that much more meaningful unless a frail player has already started charging in from a distance and then starts walking out without breaking LoS- 11.5% chance of casting Airstrike per turn at an even slower speed than mountainshells is pretty low in general. 21:28:46 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Mountainshells also have thrice the cast rate, and using up enlightenment to fly is a pro more than a con for how using up enlightenment means less available Will+ consumables for other hexes later in the game.) 21:29:49 <02Darby> personally, I near always end up safely kiting alligator snapping turtles, but I can't yet add personal experience in comparing them to mountainshells on that front 21:30:49 <02Darby> (I rather like the opportunity for a monster to be slow while still unkitable that warding confers, however the numbers work out) 21:30:52 <07acrobat> you can't run away freely from hydra if you start meleeing. you can run away from mountainshell while they use stomp. but you can say that taking damage from stomp while fleeing is the actual price though... last game I played was tengu mage, so stomp damage feels just too weak to be actaul price. but maybe it is critical who don't have flying tool. 21:31:37 <04dracoomega> It's definitely possible that I accepted too low damage numbers on stomp, considering how available flight is 21:31:49 <04dracoomega> And maybe it should be like "Overly high" without flight given that most people will be able to access flight 21:31:56 <04dracoomega> Even just via a potion 21:32:49 <06regret-⸸nde※> (It's an otherwise-irresistable randomly-ministunning 4d9 normally, and tengu as permafliers are taking 66% less damage.) 21:33:27 <04dracoomega> (I know it's true that you can just run away from a mountainshell. The hope was that the interplay of other monsters around them would mean that this wasn't always free, since they can smite no matter how many other things are in the way. Entirely possibly they're undertuned for what they currently do in several ways, though.) 21:33:39 <06regret-⸸nde※> Maybe they should band with basilisks? 21:33:45 <04dracoomega> It doesn't ministun players 21:33:47 <06regret-⸸nde※> Oh. 21:34:04 <07acrobat> @??gastronok 21:34:04 <04Câ€‹erebot> ansi Gastronok ([0;35mw[0m) | Spd: 5 | HD: 20 | HP: 134-175 | AC/EV: 3/1 | Dam: 40 | [0;36mitems[0m, [0;36mdoors[0m, amphibious, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: [0;35mwill(80)[0m, [1;34mdrown[0m | Corpse | XP: 1511 | Sp: cantrip, airstrike (2d18+(2/space)), sum.small mammal, slow, sprint | Sz: Giant | Int: human. 21:34:21 <07acrobat> 2/space? 21:34:29 <04dracoomega> 2 damage per empty space around the target 21:34:35 <07acrobat> oh thanks 21:34:53 <02Darby> gastronok's damage indicator used to be a fairly significant lie 21:34:56 <04dracoomega> Yeah 21:36:47 <04dracoomega> So gastronok's max airstrike damage is a little higher than mountainshell stomp, but not by a huge lot (and stomp can work when you're fully surrounded) 21:36:56 <04dracoomega> But of course, flying 21:38:39 <02Darby> there could be an argument for a second ranged attack (e.g. firing bits of its shell as stone arrows??) that doesn't care about flight? uncertain 21:41:28 <07acrobat> I admit I was somewhat mistaken about the damage of gastronoc's air strike as darby said. but I still think gastronock has higher chance of checkmate than mountainshell. airstrike is los range and 2d18+2*space is higher than 4d9. and gastronock can spawn before lair. dungeon is much more cramped than the lair, making it easier for retreats to be hindered. 21:42:44 <06regret-⸸nde※> The higher chance of doing more damage at less than a third the cast rate? 21:42:53 <04dracoomega> I mean... the range matters a lot 21:44:12 <07acrobat> yeah I'm not talking about a situation where you die fighting it. I'm talking about a situation where, while exploring, you have a low chance of getting into a situation where retreat is difficult. 21:45:52 <04dracoomega> Anyway, more or less likely to kill you than Gastronok doesn't strictly matter so long as they feel relevant enough. (The aim with mountainshell was to be sort of the 'opposite' of clockroaches - rather than fast weak things, try to make a strong scary thing that isn't good at chasing but could hopefully still perform relevant area control if you can't kill it. The slow movement felt thematic and I'd hoped the ranged attack 21:45:52 could be scary enough in enough situations to make them relevant despite this, but I'm certainly not against buffing them in some ways if they need it) 21:48:04 <07acrobat> I think lair is too vast and open, and the monster density isn't that high (except lair:5). so I don't think it's very easy for other monsters to intervene meaningfully in mountainshell fight 21:49:18 <07acrobat> I like giving warding to monsters. but clockroach style is much more interesting 21:58:24 <09hellmonk> mountainshell punishes chei naga so it's good 21:59:09 <02Darby> I feel the variety of threat types is important, from a fast and weak infestation to lumbering and strong, even if one has favorites among that variety, though it makes sense to tune the numbers or range or banding behavior to make them better at filling that role 22:35:38 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-812-g7fd328712a (34) 22:58:35 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-812-g7fd328712a 23:33:34 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.34-a0-812-g7fd328712a (34) 23:55:36 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-812-g7fd328712a