00:16:51 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 00:16:52 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 00:59:19 -!- indigaz20 is now known as indigaz2 03:32:38 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5261-gd9800d219b 05:08:57 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.34-a0-416-g345f232 (34) 08:39:14 New branch created: pull/4671 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4671 08:39:15 03RypoFalem02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4671 * 0.34-a0-417-gdb58a78fc2: fix: 'program bug' death attribution for blazeheart golem flame clouds 10(9 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/db58a78fc2c7 08:57:53 <04d​racoomega> So, as I've been staring at lot of skill curves and skill point distributions and spell success formulas lately (regarding adjustments to when and how one gets certain mid-higher level spells online, as was talked about in #dcss a bunch), I got to thinking of something else - which also happens to tie directly into multiple conversations lately about 2-hander appeal, weapon skill investment, and weapon mindelay. It struck me just 08:57:54 how much less exciting higher levels of weapon skill are than magic skills. Like, everyone knows that 'hit mindelay and only sometimes eventually bother to exceed it' has been the de facto skilling advice forever (and there's been talk about how this additionally factors into two-handers being less appealing than one-handers), but when you think of the benefit of going from, say, 14->20 polearms versus 14->20 ice, the difference is stark. And I think 08:57:54 this has direct knock-on effects to any changes in skill point formulas: one can be expected to hit 'endgame' levels of their weapon skill in the earlygame currently (which is very different from magic, regardless of how we adjust the latter). I joked to Index about high-level spells that used your weapon skill for their success rate (and like "In some game, that might be the answer."), but the more I thought about it, the more I saw multiple 08:57:55 tangible benefits to a significantly streamlined version of this, which I'd like to float here. 08:58:00 <04d​racoomega> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1396883918816280586/weapon_arts.txt?ex=687fb507&is=687e6387&hm=c3f12c4fd075ea38c93f47ff6a49e06531d57c0f2eb605442ca582d32897e22f& 09:12:16 <08n​icolae> re: axes, what if you did more damage to the non-primary target based on axes skill, so if you get it to 27 it almost doesn't matter which of the 8 dopes around you gets walked into 09:16:05 <08n​icolae> which i guess is the "more damage that encourages you to get into big fights" thing 09:17:34 <08n​icolae> ...of course, if implemented, i would have to think about the lochaber axe, whose initial design was just "polearm that is also an axe and also a polearm"... on the other hand, lochaber with sunder and fend would be a spicy meatball... and maybe might even encourage someone to level up both polearms and axes like a multischool weapon :O 09:17:47 <08n​icolae> "nicolae we can't make design decisions based on one unrand" it's all i have 09:34:39 <04d​racoomega> I mean, the number could cap somewhat reasonably, if needbe, so lochaber doesn't run away with everything. ('Increase damage to non-main targets' feels sort of bland to me, and doesn't actually incentivize fighting multiple things. You're somewhat better at doing this than you otherwise are, but there's no 'additional' benefit to fighting more things.) 09:37:16 <03i​mplojin> personally i'd prefer to distinguish weapon types by type-dependent sets of egos, possibly coupled with delay reduction for 2hs (the 5 ancientcrawl folks who already think 2hs are too strong will object to this but that's life); of course this means more work on egos but in a paradigm where each type has a bunch of specific egos there's going to be less pressure to balance the types more or less equivalently 09:37:39 <03i​mplojin> but also i'm not doing crawl commits lately so whatever you folks prefer 09:40:38 <04d​racoomega> Yeah, fancier (or two-hander-specific) egos was definitely my original thought when some two-hander related stuff was being discussed in past. But I guess what I got to thinking here is that this specifically incentivizes high weapon skill (which then has other positive knock-on effects, I think.) Like, the starting point wasn't actually 'make weapons more differentiated' in this case, but 'make higher parts of the skill curve 09:40:38 slightly more rewarding' (and then, when it's already skill-based, it feels natural that the skills shouldn't be exactly the same, even if they're trained in broadly comparable ways.) 09:41:30 <04d​racoomega> While there could be egos that scale with weapon skill in this manner (which I did consider), by being on a narrow subset of weapons of that type, by definition, I feel in most games they do not result in this sort of behavior? 09:42:02 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (My main concern with additional egos regulated to two-handers is that there's not a lot of design room for things that have to compete so directly against the current brands of different elemental checks or number modulations of More Damage, without either making stronger copies / combinations of current brands, or hewing much closer to the game-slowing flashiness of effects currently regulated to unrands.) 09:42:19 <04d​racoomega> (Note that one could probably add something like an 'Expertise' ego that counts as a skill increase specifically for purposes of weapon art, which might be interesting) 09:43:28 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Flashiness that also might have some friendly-fire concerns for a few spellschools and gods? I guess we've been slowly more willing to cheat that in other cases, though.) 09:48:11 <04d​racoomega> I mean, there's definitely design room open to them that wouldn't be open to weapon arts, by being more highly specific or 'weird' in how they work. 09:48:41 <04d​racoomega> (Though when I say that, I guess my brain keeps going over to unrand stuff >.>) 09:48:51 <04d​racoomega> Firestarter: the better 'flaming' ego 😛 09:52:39 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> In a certain capacity, there's hypothetically room to demote unrand properties to randart or other limited capacities if we come up with other weird things to give to said unrands, I guess? There are a bunch of new ego properties that mostly just need commit-squashing-and-clean-up on that one PR of hellmonk's. 09:53:22 <03i​mplojin> yes, this, broadly. imo it's fine to do a whole bunch of unrand-lite things as weapon arts 09:55:55 <09h​ellmonk> re: mindelay, there have been a couple proposals to remove it (on oldtavern, one of the dev wikis). However, the formulas you need to make that functional are a bit Fucked and nothing has ever been done about it. Depending on how much you hate skill breakpoints, pursuing that would either be interesting or a huge waste of time. 10:06:07 <04d​racoomega> I don't hate skill breakpoints at all, personally. (As long as they're communicated well). In fact, I think some things work better with breakpoints (I mean, the weapon art proposal as a breakpoint in the opposite direction so that you don't get 'very tiny chances' to do things from the start and it specifically is a thing that requires significant investment - as mid/higher level spells already do.) Like, I don't think mindelay 10:06:07 is a 'problem' in terms of it having breakpoints, and it feels fine to have that as a milestone. It just seems like there's some benefit in also making it a bit more appealing/exciting to train more weaponskill (instead of mostly just fighting as your 'offense' skill afterward) beyond that on characters that want to invest more heavily in weapon combat. 10:07:28 <04d​racoomega> So hybrid characters can still feel okay at stopping at similar mid levels of skill, but there's a more tangible reward for people wanting to lean more heavily into weapon skill than at present 10:07:43 <04d​racoomega> (And, again, this can naturally promote two-hander use in a number of ways, I think?) 10:13:39 -!- adept76 is now known as adept7 10:51:43 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 10:51:43 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 12:28:56 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-417-ge9ddf008a9: Fix options_guide description of consumable_slot (Ereinion) 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e9ddf008a973 12:28:56 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-418-g829145972e: Remove a stray useless statement 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/829145972e47 12:28:56 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-419-g265757be89: Improve jewellery autopickup exceptions 10(61 minutes ago, 6 files, 86+ 47-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/265757be899d 12:28:56 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-420-g32dc36160e: Remove disable-autopickup toggle from 'd'rop menu (Ge0FF) 10(40 minutes ago, 4 files, 19+ 105-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/32dc36160ec1 12:28:56 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-421-gac8e67afc9: Update drop menu help text to mention page behavior 10(39 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ac8e67afc992 12:28:56 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-422-g32cc9f1e22: Fix consumable_shortcut and key mapping not working for baubles (Oneirical) 10(39 minutes ago, 4 files, 7+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/32cc9f1e2223 12:28:56 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-423-g82b35fe456: New option: show_paged_inventory 10(15 minutes ago, 4 files, 15+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/82b35fe45686 12:28:56 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-424-g9809850fe8: Slightly change item hotkey behavior in 'i'nventory menu 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 11+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9809850fe80f 12:28:56 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-425-g6b72936f9e: Don't force_more on allies getting doomed (for real this time) (Oneirical) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6b72936f9e1b 12:55:59 -!- khadgar5 is now known as khadgar 13:18:21 <08n​icolae> brain genoius answer: get rid of mindelay. at max skill you can swing anything at 0.05 aut 13:30:39 -!- khadgar1 is now known as khadgar 13:54:23 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-426-ge980eeb3ff: Allow using tab/shift+tab to switch between inventory pages (hollowman) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e980eeb3ff91 13:54:23 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.34-a0-427-gc8c058ed60: Fix show_paged_inventory option 10(57 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c8c058ed602c 15:19:48 03regret-index02 07* 0.34-a0-428-gc60012f9c2: Adjust various tiles old and new 10(2 hours ago, 9 files, 2+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c60012f9c279 15:19:48 03regret-index02 07* 0.34-a0-429-gf1afc118e7: Juggernaut simulacrum tile (LemurRobot) 10(82 minutes ago, 3 files, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f1afc118e752 15:19:48 03regret-index02 07* 0.34-a0-430-g17903823d9: Quick fix-ups vault review (+ #4572, #4574, #4649) 10(12 minutes ago, 9 files, 59+ 62-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/17903823d94c 15:21:52 Thanks regret-index if you're about 15:39:41 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.34-a0-427-gc8c058ed60 (34) 17:04:10 03dolorous02 07* 0.34-a0-431-g4ac789b628: Fix typo (Flugkiller). 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4ac789b62856 17:25:40 <06d​olorous_84348> For the record, the weapon moves/arts concept sounds really good, and the swapped short blades/staves idea at the end seems somewhat more fitting than the original, at least to me. 19:04:37 03WizardIke02 {GitHub} 07* 0.34-a0-432-g525eb42237: Fix a crash when examining a monster with unknown wand (#4499) 10(47 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/525eb422377a 19:43:05 03hellmonk02 07* 0.34-a0-433-gd36b845a40: Fix ally cloud death attribution (RypoFalem) 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d36b845a409c 19:55:53 03hellmonk02 07* 0.34-a0-434-gda159a28c5: Allow default targeting harmless friends 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/da159a28c559 20:44:53 just returning after like 1.5 years and read through all the changelogs and can I just say... how DARE you nerf and not buff ?? (<3, glad to see so many familiar faces) 20:47:11 03Implojin02 07* 0.34-a0-435-g561764f35a: qvfnyybj nabgure ehqr vgrz anzr 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/561764f35a2c 22:35:28 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-435-g561764f35a (34) 22:58:24 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-435-g561764f35a 23:34:37 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.34-a0-435-g561764f35a (34) 23:55:33 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-435-g561764f35a