00:55:25 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-1044-gf4d9ab44da 00:59:02 -!- indigaz23 is now known as indigaz2 01:58:33 -!- theWeaver is now known as theWorld 01:58:40 -!- theWorld is now known as theWeaver 04:33:28 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5261-gd9800d219b 05:18:18 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.34-a0-1044-gf4d9ab4 (34) 05:38:11 <04d​racoomega> I think there could be. (I think that if weapon swapping is an issue, that it's easy to justify a weirder ranged weapon requiring a 'loading time' that makes it slow to equip, even if most weapons are fast). Triple Crossbow firing 3 weaker shots, for better slaying scaling, is sort of interesting (though longbows, of course, are already the 'better slaying scaling' ranged weapon, even if not quite so good). Shooting at 3 05:38:11 different targets (that are near each other?) might be more interesting? Really, the thing with launchers is that I personally feel they sort of want a different gameplay dynamic as an entire class of weapon, from the ground up. I know not everyone agrees, but I feel they often spend a lot of the game being really boring - it can take a while to reach this point, so this doesn't happen all the time, but on every archer I've had become strong, 05:38:12 it feels incredibly flattening: you have a one-button solution to almost every encounter and it doesn't even matter where you or your target is before pressing it. A spell school whose single spell is '0-MP Full Range Greater Stone Arrow.' sounds rather dreadful when you phrase it like that, doesn't it? I've brainstormed ideas for what to do with launchers with Index a few times and didn't really hit on anything I was fully satisfied either, so I sort 05:38:13 of deliberately put it off (and they're not getting touched by all this weapon arts stuff coming later this version, either). But it's something I sure would like to do something with at some point. (I guess this isn't really saying that a weirder base type is a bad interim thing for ranged weapons to have, but more like "I think they want something way more fundamental than that." 05:38:36 <04d​racoomega> I cannot specifically remember if I commented on the most recent version of this spell, back in April. I feel I might have (and that the draft version wasn't quite finished in any case), but I don't think I fully tested it. I don't really remember now, sorry. =/ I continue to have concerns about gold-as-cost for spells (especially if the gold is the only cost, rather than MP). I do think it's sort of interesting, but also fear 05:38:37 that the quantity of gold found from run to run varies so enormously that it might be hard to meter in a satisfying way? (I have no quantitative data for how much it varies from game to game, alas, just experiential.) This was some of why I was planning to experiment with an evoker with a gold cost, since that's already something the player expects to use only 'every now and again' and thus merely having 'enough' gold is fine (rather than worrying 05:38:37 about how different 1000 and 5000 gold is for it). This isn't a hard veto or anything, just... concerns. It might even be hard to know for sure without actually trying it. As Index said, at least how they exist right now, Barbs is a pretty weak enemy effect and probably not relevant on anything but an earlygame spell (I still feel there might be potential for some home for it, but probably barbs itself gets revised before that happens >.>) I 05:38:38 personally feel like Silver is not something that should be generally accessible on any spell. It's not quite explicitly divine in the way that holy wrath is, but it feels adjacent enough to that space that general magical access to it feels off to me on a flavor basis (not a mechanical one). It's possible others might disagree. 'Wide Beam' definitely has spell potential, imo, but of course it's just a general template that then could do 'anything' 05:38:38 in almost any school. 05:38:43 <04d​racoomega> 'Fire each time you move' does feel like an interesting possible gimmick. (What Index says about it overlapping with my level 8 translocations plans for this version is true, but I think it could be distinct enough in other ways that this doesn't have to be a problem.). I'm not so sure about it triggering even if you bump into something or it kind of just feels like 'repeatable beam spell in corridors'. Or rather, I could see it 05:38:43 being a spell that fires on melee attack or a spell that fires on movement, but I'm less sure about mixing the two together, since I feel they have interestingly different incentives. Like, the concerns for these sorts of things (imo), is considering both how useable they might be in a practical situation and also what sort of tactics they push you towards as the most practical, and I do have some concerns that the version you mention there ends 05:38:44 up sort of 'corridor blaster' (I am reminded slightly of the spell that eventually became Splinterfrost Shell, where you 'launched' the blocks you created at enemies by bumping into them. And while this was actually pretty fun, it turns out that monster movement made it very impractical to launch anything but the center block at enemies. I keep trying to get extra value out of the spell in real combat situations and mostly failing (which is why I went 05:38:44 back to the drawing board on it). It was fun, though (I'd sort of wondered if I could rework it into an evoker effect at some future time, with extra upside)) 05:51:09 03kate-02 07* 0.34-a0-1045-gc2f504d12d: Fix Warlock's Mirror reflecting charm under Okawaru 10(5 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c2f504d12d67 05:55:11 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> RE: re-using and mashing layout types together, Rift Wizard 1 and 2 sell it as the active abilities of various final bosses and then have those final bosses teleport or blast while destroying walls around the level, so it's fairly more obvious and mechanically pressing there. While it's technically an improvement to be "everywhere but with demons and overlaid different tiles" as opposed to "D but with demons and overlaid tiles" 05:55:11 (and I was planning on re-using + heavily changing some Hells layouts that aren't really deployed normally anymore due to the size compression, like layout_gehenna_pools_triple), it's still a little... less unique than I'd hope to emphasize as a unique home specifically for demons, when it's got to contrast against four whole branches in 11 to 13 floors post-Hell-Pan-Roulette? A mash-up floor might still be fine as an individual uncommon sighting, 05:55:12 though, if not the main layout for all of Pan, and I might be able to pick out a few layouts that could be neat with some dramatic cut-throughs of larger other layouts, like imposing a metallayout_twisted_cavern on top of rocky layout_geoelf_grid. 05:56:01 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Full details of new pan enemies are a little fast and loose at the moment, but the more established desires include: * A decent need to have wider corridors without being completely open, between various summoners (current shadow demons and nekomata, a planned ynoxinul update, a new user of Awaken Flesh, desires to have more variety in Pandemonium lord summon spells) and a new lower-tier swarmer. * A decent need to still 05:56:02 provide reasonable ways to duck out of sight without just using up digging (the current damnation and torment users will still be reasonably present, and there'll be other newer monsters of that long-range threat capacity). * A second layout using demonic trees (I was going to re-use layout_twisted_forest as has no home currently, but it'd be nice to have more than the one layout whenever one sees denser clumps of demonic trees). * Some interest in 05:56:02 pools, rivers, checkered grids, and other such distributions for new heavily-present-for-the-whole-floor new terrain types. The loose conceit is to try out how water works in Swamp / Shoals / Cocytus in being impractical to lure away from due to its omnipresence (and with Pan still having regular floor spawns + no stairs to dance), with types that should be fully passable like shallow water but handing out notable buffs to demons / debuffs to 05:56:03 non-demons. (It'd also contrast reasonably with the re-use of water and lava in the Hells.) 06:03:12 <06d​olorous_84348> One question regarding Pandemonium: fountains of eyeballs are pretty much an Abyss thing, but should they show up at least occasionally in Pan? I'm aware the two places don't need to overlap much due to confusion, but if some of the demons in Pan are (not the usual kind of) flesh-eaters, it seems like it might be fitting.to have such fountains there as well. 07:15:30 <09g​ammafunk> I'd love for eyeball fountains to sometimes spawn eye monsters 07:15:40 <09g​ammafunk> this is not a serious suggestion, but I'd still love that 07:45:11 <08n​icolae> re: gold to silver, i had an idea ages ago for a ranged unrand that turned gold back into lead, with some kind of scattershot-type targeting (not sure how best to implement that) that would use some % of your gold, with more gold = more damage. there was also a chance (increasing with gold count and tmut skill, which i guess would be alch now) of getting fancier metals, such as silver (silver damage), iron (more damage), quicksilver 07:45:11 (disenchant), plutonium (contam/weakening) etc. i forget what other metals i thought of. anyway i never got around to implementing it, due to not having time and the other devs didn't seem super hype 07:45:30 <08n​icolae> flesh fountains. they're like blood fountains but they're not made of stone. they're... squishier 08:13:58 <06d​olorous_84348> Even better 😈 09:13:49 <06m​umra> I had this idea for ranged weapons to make them not work at point blank range. So you are forced to swap to melee or reposition when things get in your face. (At least for the 2-handers, slings and handcannons can have a benefit here of being usable point blank, but I'd maybe reduce their total range.) This also makes 2-hander melee more important for swapping to if you're a ranged user. Along with this would need some interface and 09:13:50 autofight improvements to handle swapping for near/far... 09:19:11 <06m​umra> It'd mean you can't rely on the ranged weapon to kill literally everything in LOS, you need a plan to deal with melee range (but the game has plenty of hybridisation options to deal with that) 09:19:51 <04d​racoomega> I'm fairly wary of this idea (even though I've considered it myself before). Ranged combat doesn't feel like a skill that wants to require secondary weapons to function (and Throwing may also be a little more into that space, where it's harder to be a primary thing and is often used as a supplement to melee), it feels like inevitably a significant earlygame nerf (where ranged weapons aren't nearly as troubled), and then once you're 09:19:51 strong enough, it's unclear how much it actually improves the interest of the core dynamics if 'kill everything before it reaches you' is just as good, except sometimes you fail that and become bad. (But just, in general, it seems like it would feel bad for someone's main offense they've invested in to just be rendered useless on the regular.) 09:20:32 <04d​racoomega> We have lots of individual spells that are troubled at particular ranges, but generally those skills still have other options within themselves to use in those cases 09:24:03 <09g​ammafunk> constant weapon swaps (you must fight adjacent monsters a lot as a ranged user) don't feel good. Ask anyone who used the old hellfire/damnation unrand (before it made the player immune to its damage). Even when you did have to swap that, it at least had a special AOE effect with big damage to mitigate the pain of this (its damage used to be higher, when it did self damage, too) 09:24:40 <09g​ammafunk> agree that non-melee spells work better precisely because a spellcaster almost always has other spells both available and with sufficient training 09:26:08 <09g​ammafunk> I'm also not as strongly anti-status-quo for ranged weapons as other devs are. It doesn't feel particularly boring to me nor completely lacking in tactical/strategic decisions 09:28:24 <09g​ammafunk> I'm not sure how many devs don't like current ranged, exactly, but I know of at least two who do :gammafHeh: 09:30:56 <04d​racoomega> Yeah, as I said, I don't have any specific proposals that I'm sufficiently satisfied with to present, even if I'm generally dissatisfied with the status quo. But there's been so many other things that I do have more specific ideas for that it's sort of in the bucket of 'Maybe at some future time, try again.' 09:31:22 <04d​racoomega> Got to get through weapon arts and hellpan and some more species and additional talismans and evokers and... 09:31:34 <09g​ammafunk> I just need to get qw working in trunk again so that it can rack up more ranged wins before eventual ranged nerfs! 09:32:03 <09g​ammafunk> well people are excited for weapon arts, I know that 09:43:19 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> My usual suggestion for said ranged weapon space when talking with Draco is to advocate for something like building up a damage + kills meter that allows using trick shot abilities that would be shared across weapon types (something like each weapon having two fixed trick shots and there being ten shots in total), with that meter build-up disappearing immediately on swapping weapons. Many newcomers have wondered why all the 09:43:20 complexity in the game mostly goes to priests and mages compared to the majority of other comparable games being willing to give active abilities to other character types, and ranged weapons have a far, far lower ceiling of complexity by default compared to even melee weapons (between caring less about positioning, not pivoting between different types due to no cross-training and singular apts, current cleaving and reaching and stabs existing even 09:43:21 before weapon arts). 09:47:16 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (As Robin indicates, though, what those trick shots would be is very unsettled in comparison to the rest of our work, and there's inevitably some awkwardness in area damage or debuff fields alike essentially trying to make Earth 2 or Hexes 4: This Time It's Full Screen.) 10:58:06 New branch created: pull/4862 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4862 10:58:07 03CrawlOdds02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4862 * 0.34-a0-1045-gbf210ef8f5: Update Vehumet's gift weighting to consider averages 10(8 hours ago, 3 files, 15+ 22-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bf210ef8f5f5 11:24:46 03dolorous02 07* 0.34-a0-1046-gbc77645148: Fix typos. 10(4 minutes ago, 2 files, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bc77645148da 13:09:13 03Implojin02 07* 0.34-a0-1047-g5074f317b0: Add Odds to the credits 10(78 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5074f317b088 13:49:44 03CrawlOdds02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4862 * 0.34-a0-1045-g7ff4ac6b2c: Update Vehumet's gift weighting to consider averages 10(11 hours ago, 3 files, 16+ 22-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7ff4ac6b2cb3 14:12:11 <02M​onkooky> My feeling is that while secondary weapons specifically should not be desirable, ranged weapons being sufficient as your only offensive skill is fundamental to them being one-note 14:20:12 <06m​umra> Like it seems generally accepted that magic shouldn't be your only offense for a mage build, that you need at least some training in e.g. a fighting skill so you have something to do when you run out of MP. 14:25:49 <02D​arby> having read through a lot of the past conversations leading to the current state of ranged, not incentivizing either swapping to a melee weapon in melee or relying on any form of resource like throwing and MP seemed to be among the core design goals, which ultimately required that they be stronger than melee, at longer range, and infinite (instead taxing encumbrance and skilling) 14:27:43 <02D​arby> anything that would involve a reason to weapon swap or resource to manage was frequently brought up and vetoed 14:29:22 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Ammo resources per-shot are inherently fairly different from e.g. meter build-up for activated abilities, though that is admittedly a pretty big swing enough that I haven't really ever pushed for it. 14:30:11 <02D​arby> crawl does have rather few examples of meter buildup, really 14:30:13 <02D​arby> usk? 14:30:23 <02D​arby> surely I'm missing some more 14:30:57 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Forgecraft's got a few, though it's not directly in player hands? 14:31:05 <02D​arby> yeah fair 14:31:08 <04d​racoomega> I think that's not entirely true? Or rather, it's true that some people recommend 'eventually' training a weapon (but that 'eventually' can sometimes wait a very long time - certainly post-Lair in many cases), but there's a lot of characters who legitimately just keep pushing their magic skills to rely on extra-strong spells at the expense of longevity. (Training fighting incidentally boosts their melee power, but is usually 14:31:09 recomended for HP purposes on those characters and shouldn't really be counted, imo.) 14:32:13 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Evocations reasonably covers for ghost moths, especially with evo-scaling orbs being reasonably enticing for mages this version.) 14:33:09 <02D​arby> or even summon magic 14:33:23 <04d​racoomega> I think a number of things are bundled together there, but certainly 'one action is often sufficient for most situations' does feel a lot more one-note than melee combat to me. It is possible that those other actions (or relevant positional considerations that don't presently exist) could still be bundled into ~however ranged weapons work~ in some future system 14:35:47 <02M​onkooky> I think one of the strengths of how melee works is that you have some interesting strategic consideration in 'what is my ranged option' 14:37:02 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Do still want to get around to renaming monster "repel missiles" to "deflect missiles" and making it give more effective EV at some point sooner or later, with the monster status descriptions set-up and all.) 14:37:36 New branch created: pull/4863 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4863 14:37:37 03CrawlOdds02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4863 * 0.34-a0-1045-g393e09694d: Fix pathfinding through doors 10(49 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/393e09694d5f 14:38:09 <02M​onkooky> some form of 'ranged arts' could make ranged weapons less one note and hopefully more positional (pending... actually designing the things of course) but I think it's more fundamentally limited wrt between-run diversity. 14:38:28 <04d​racoomega> Would agree that this is part of it. (But also melee cares a lot more about where it's standing, imo) 15:13:53 03CrawlOdds02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4855 * 0.34-a0-1019-gb37a3093d1: Remove piety decay 10(3 days ago, 3 files, 44+ 56-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b37a3093d186 15:13:53 03CrawlOdds02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4855 * 0.34-a0-1020-gd2bb2d88c7: Remove piety hysteresis 10(3 days ago, 3 files, 7+ 25-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d2bb2d88c7b2 16:40:06 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.34-a0-1047-g5074f317b0 (34) 21:10:22 <02M​onkooky> I've just been reading through the nitty gritty of FixedArray/FixedVector etc to make sure I'm safely iterating through fprop 21:10:51 <02M​onkooky> and I feel like this entire class underpinning crawl is way too complicated for absolutely no reason 22:25:35 <02M​onkooky> so it looks like the canonical way to do this is for (rectangle_iterator ri(0); ri; ++ri) env.pgrid(*ri) &= FPROP_WHATEVER; 22:26:23 <02M​onkooky> in case it wasn't immediately obvious from this, rectangle_iterator ri(0) constructs an iterator over the map with border size 0 23:13:36 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.34-a0-1047-g5074f317b0 (34) 23:35:32 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-1047-g5074f317b0 (34) 23:58:47 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.34-a0-1047-g5074f317b0