00:04:24 From discord: 00:04:28 this makesno sense to me 00:04:31 crashing in isspace??? 00:55:38 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-1092-gce43c158f7 02:59:01 <02Monkooky> consider distraction 03:00:26 <06mumra> (Could call it "Jack") 03:01:31 <02Monkooky> distraction enables stabbing, might let you do funny things with kicking a dude and running away, and unlike para isn't just insanely good to apply for every char 03:02:26 <06mumra> I'm thinking that has to be a red herring and the crash didn't really happen there, it just looks that way due to compiler weirdness? 03:05:03 <02Monkooky> what are the odds of making a kick attack? 03:44:02 cgettys: that's a smashed stack (note that the stack trace ends there) 03:49:35 / mumra 03:50:07 unfortunately that's going to make diagnosis particularly difficult 03:53:38 <04dracoomega> From the player themselves: It crashes when I press Quiver (Shift+q) and ESC multiple times in combat, and I've been deliberately trying to do it again and it doesn't crash. But it's happened twice, so it's not obvious to ignore. So that's at least something 03:53:57 <04dracoomega> I mean, that's still pretty vague, but... 04:34:07 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5261-gd9800d219b 05:30:24 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.33-a0-1092-gce43c15 (34) 11:59:03 <09hellmonk> I wonder how many interlevel luring problems would be solved if monsters refused to follow the player more than a certain number of floors (say, 3) from their origin 11:59:18 <09hellmonk> thinking abt theoretical problems with hot swap spell 12:21:35 <04dracoomega> ....how often is anyone pulling a monster three floors away from its starting point? 12:21:38 <04dracoomega> I feel even two is rare 12:24:05 I remember pulling crimson imps up several flights when I played a Venom Mage and neither poison nor fire would harm them. May as well stash them far away. 12:45:55 it's relatively rare these days I think, since the old cases when it made sense to do so got nerfed 13:48:56 geekosaur: ah, yeah, smashed stack makes sense. I had went "well it can't be stack overflow"... should have realized it's stack corruption/smashing 13:51:03 <06mumra> Alternatively, what if everything in LOS gets to follow you through the stairs (with an appropriate delay based on how far away they were when you took the stairs) 13:51:16 @Monkooky: supposedly 100%? but doesn't seem to be, so I'm confused 13:51:18 : AuxAttackType(5, 100, "kick") { }; 13:51:39 middle number is "chance" 13:55:53 Distract does seem reasoanble 14:05:47 But then that's only a low-tier stab 14:09:04 Sleep, maybe? or Sleep + Confused? 14:15:52 <09hellmonk> Well that's kinda the point, right? Doesn't interfere w/ normal play at all bc it only happens w/ hyper degen stuff like luring convokers to transporter vaults or walking a weak monster around to use for an escape ability. Was wondering if some kind of hard limit on that stuff would free up some design space. 14:17:22 <09hellmonk> I think this has been discussed before but I don't remember where. Needs at least a little complication so you can't use stairs to get adjacent to a ranged monster for free. 14:18:27 <04dracoomega> I'd be deeply worried about what this means for a lot of normal play, tbh. Like, ambush vaults are an obvious one, but I think Crawl somewhat depends on the player being able to just leave. And suddenly if a couple spaces of distance and stairs can't do that, I feel like a lot of things kind of break. 14:19:37 <06regret-⸸nde※> There'll be fairly less transporter / runed door vaults most games with Necropolis done, and I believe gammafunk wanted to have vault tags to just prevent things from being convoked out of them (which would still be relevant for, say, monsters behind glass vaults or what-not). 14:20:15 <04dracoomega> It's an interesting thought. My immediate concern is that it might be kind of opaque to players, including even what a creature's original depth is in some cases. How does this interact with shafts, for instance? 14:20:40 <04dracoomega> Like, maybe this is arguably fine since in normal play it should almost never come up 14:20:58 <04dracoomega> So most people just don't need to think about it 14:21:20 Well, isn't teh original depth a bit irrelevant? 14:21:22 because OOD? 14:21:39 But agreed, I feel like it'd break Spriggan 14:21:47 <04dracoomega> Oh, you can't see what I replied to 14:21:53 <04dracoomega> Those were on two different subjects 14:22:15 <04dracoomega> The second one was in response to 'Creatures cannot move more than 3 floors away from where they spawned' 14:22:23 Kinda my comments were too, first one was replying to opacity of depth 14:22:43 Second was "not being able to run feels like it'd break spriggan" 14:22:57 but the conjunction between the two ideas, was not entirely clear :D 14:24:05 <06regret-⸸nde※> (I'd be rather concerned about doing Brogue style stairs with a bunch of branch ends, like V:5 or a lucky Swamp:4 or the one Snake:4 ambush vault, as it'd make stairdancing + teleport be much stronger than it currently is through dividing up the spawns onto a cleared floor.) 14:24:12 <09hellmonk> Right, and I think this will solve convoker luring for the most part, but there are still some general design constraints from "any monster that spawns can be moved by the player to any level". Like we couldn't make an early game variant of silent spectre for example, because it could just get dragged around for free silence against other floors. 14:24:45 <09hellmonk> or rather, we'd have to have some piecemeal solution for that problem if we wanted it 14:25:08 <06regret-⸸nde※> Silent spectres already can't travel through stairs at all, I believe? 14:25:23 I was about to say, why not block specific such monsters from stair travel etc? 14:25:29 already is done for mindless, no? 14:25:36 <09hellmonk> Anyway, I'm only bringing this up bc I have concerns about it wrt hot swap spell 14:26:00 <06regret-⸸nde※> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1350580817406984222/image.png?ex=67d741e7&is=67d5f067&hm=7236d8a019c3466c8f426a820bb5c841f1297f16fd3b2ff04d5d11148cad793a& 14:26:23 <09hellmonk> Correct, that was the piecemeal solution last time. But do we really want to tag any monster that could be abused for any reason to not take stairs? 14:29:02 what does hotswap enable that potion of attraciton wouldn't? 14:32:56 <04dracoomega> While I am not sure that a bunch of theoretical concerns are realistic concerns, regarding stashing/carrying monsters around, I can agree that it's sort of nice in theory to have a 'final word' on not having to worry about such things. It's not like 'leashing after an arbitrary distance' is an uncommon thing in video games, after all. 14:33:31 <06regret-⸸nde※> (...To be entirely honest, the kinds of player behaviour that'd cart orcs across the entire Dungeon to most likely move one tile when needed already feels like it exists in some unavoidable capacity with Vhi's and feel like the kind of non-automatable hyperoptimization tedium behaviour that would make a person play poorly in most other aspects. Gammafunk doesn't even bother with making qw abuse stair-shouting tactics, as 14:33:31 another common feared optimization front, and that's literally for a bot.) 14:33:58 <04dracoomega> (Trying to think of other possible weird consequences to this rule, but I imagine almost any situation where you can afford to 'flee' by carrying a monster up 3 different staircases means you were never actually in danger from it in the first place >.>) 14:34:26 <09hellmonk> (obviously my favored solution for this stuff is no stairs but I've been trying to think in mainline friendly terms) 14:34:41 <09hellmonk> yeah idk maybe I'm just overly paranoid about these things 14:34:52 <09hellmonk> which I would not do myself 14:35:42 <02Monkooky> cgettys: aux attacks have an XL scaling chance to fire in addition to a per-aux chance I believe- but that's 50% at a minimum. 14:36:02 <04dracoomega> I mean, I understand the paranoia 14:36:37 <04dracoomega> I've certainly fretted about such things in past (and maybe even backed away from some designs where actual problems may have been inevitable due to this, on reflection, hmmm...) 14:38:11 <02Monkooky> I do think that any rat value problems from hot swap already exist for vhi's 14:39:04 <09hellmonk> Worried that hot swap will be slightly worse because it allows you to block a monster with another hostile monster 14:39:24 <02Monkooky> don't monsters swap past weaklings though? 14:40:03 <09hellmonk> I'm imagining a scenario w/ a ranged attacker at a distance 14:40:15 @monkooky you mean beyond the obvious? 14:41:10 I'm lookin at melee-attack.cc 14:41:21 Oooh, I see 14:41:34 virtual bool xl_based_chance() const { return true; } 14:41:34 <02Monkooky> is this scenario meaningfully different from dragging a rat around and just walking behind it? 14:42:28 it's modified by the whole (30 + experience_level) / 59 14:42:39 <09hellmonk> It's faster and you can do it in a hallway with a monster that is less likely to be cast through 14:42:44 That explains what I was eeing 14:43:57 Thanks @Monkooky 14:44:23 <02Monkooky> cgettys: 50% to paralyze on attack is unreasonably powerful, if you're thinkin that's low odds you need to adjust the expected power level of this wayyyyy down 14:44:25 That seems sensible for this effect, and if I didn't want it I could jus toverride xl_bsed_chance 14:44:31 <09hellmonk> Maybe there's some reason I'm not thinking of why it's not a problem though, or a reason why this solution wouldn't work 14:44:36 Oh I knew that was too strong 14:44:50 I just was triyng to figure out why it wasn't hitting when it should 14:44:52 <09hellmonk> Trying not to fuck anything up here 14:45:14 (answer: because I was testing at level like, 4 or 5, so 100% * (35/59) 14:45:55 <02Monkooky> hm. So you've got to pick a monster that will survive a hot swap, but won't be a real threat to you in terms of fighting an additional monster 14:46:04 <02Monkooky> probably doable enough unfortunately 14:46:07 Also keep in mind that the duration is quite short, just long enough to get a stab in. But even so it's too powerful agreed 14:46:22 <02Monkooky> one para stab is probably an instakill 14:46:40 <06mumra> I mean you could do something like: more monsters will follow you up stairs, but if you then lose them they'll have some homing instinct to return back to their original floor and rough position. So you can't use stair pulling and teleport to just completely disperse monsters, and the pulling small groups to deal with them safely is no longer so safe, however stairs are still a tactical retreat into more favourable terrain which is 14:46:40 a valid normal method of dealing with monsters on any given floor when you're not using stairs 14:46:46 True, I had it at like 2 in 5 originally and even that might be high 14:47:23 <04dracoomega> I mean, I think an important consideration here is not that this is possible, but that it is actually more effective than not doing so. The moment the other monster is contributing even semi-meaningful damage to the fight (and walking between fights/resting!) I'm not sure that is the case any longer, much of the time 14:47:29 <06mumra> Don't have to have necessarily everything following you, just ... a bit more than only what happened to be exactly adjacent at the time 14:48:05 <09hellmonk> Have it scale with short blades skill so there's a funny reason for 27 sbl title? 14:48:32 The duration, the liklihood, or the damage? 14:48:42 I do like the idea of the damage being tied to it 14:48:48 <04dracoomega> Having monsters move back to anywhere on another floor over time sounds like it's wanting a level of simulating other floors that Crawl just doesn't do, though 14:48:49 <09hellmonk> Chance 14:49:13 hmmm 14:49:15 <04dracoomega> We can't really tell a monster to go anywhere in particular on a floor the player isn't on. Not really. 14:49:36 so make xl_bsaed_chance false, make it it its own aux attack type, and make the chance scale on short blades? 14:52:40 <09gammafunk> I was thinking whether having it take an actual dagger weapon as something it equipped would be interesting (in the spirit of DracoOmega's recent unrand/equipment work) 14:52:50 <09gammafunk> if it can only take a dagger, I suppose the answer is it's not very interesting? 14:52:58 I do like the idea of that too, it does sound fun 14:53:01 <09gammafunk> like dagger egos aren't that interesting 14:53:06 I'm just not sure how to balance it 14:53:11 <02Monkooky> I feel like having this para makes it really unreasonably good unless the chances are low enough that it feels bad 14:53:12 cause it could also end up super OP that way 14:53:14 <09gammafunk> and maybe you have an randart dagger and get properties from it 14:53:22 <09gammafunk> but that doesn't seem quite interesting enough 14:53:41 <09gammafunk> it's just an unfortante aspect of dagger stabbing that there's not tons of interesting stuff happening there 14:53:44 right, what if you have sprrigan'sknife in your boot and gyre and gimbal in your hand 14:53:48 kinda OP 14:53:52 <06mumra> Yeah the implementation is not nice, I think it has to be simplified into a couple of vectors of "monsters who are in transit to the current floor" and "monsters who are off their original level and will return soon" 14:54:06 Agreed Para is too good 14:54:14 I'm leaning towards sleep, maybe also too good? 14:54:17 but less OP 14:54:50 <06mumra> doesn't feel impossible to do in a very boiled down way anyway 14:54:56 <09gammafunk> hrm 14:55:01 <09gammafunk> one thing about making it use the dagger that is good 14:55:08 <09gammafunk> you don't need any of this "it does a debuff" stuff 14:55:29 <09gammafunk> it just takes a dagger and hits with it sometimes and that's what it does 14:55:53 <09gammafunk> I guess having it apply a debuf is cool in that it's allowing new stab opportunities though 14:56:03 Right, that'st the whole back and force 14:56:04 <09gammafunk> versus taking a dagger and it's just getting whatever stab opportunities are there 14:56:10 *Forth 14:56:20 and also trying to make it unique 14:56:30 there's already a *Dazzle cloak, for example 14:57:06 But agreed, I think there are two ideas for this that could work, if either of them work 14:57:12 One is "adds second dagger" 14:57:21 Will be painful to implement still I think 14:57:30 cause it'd be weapon 3 for Co 14:57:40 which is cool 14:57:44 but it just adds more damage 14:58:20 <09gammafunk> well, on that note, one thing it does do is give you stabs on chars that might normally get very good stabs 14:58:38 True 14:58:40 <09gammafunk> a char using a non-sb (or even just non-dagger) weapon type now gets some big stabs sometimes 14:58:42 <09gammafunk> but 14:58:59 Fair, potential long blade synergy 14:59:31 <09gammafunk> not sure if DO's recent weapon generalization would help make implementing this less painful. Probably should explore the simpler debuff idea more first before committing to the more ambitious version 14:59:46 Maybe the idea just isn't unique enough. Spriggan's knife already has 50% of stabs treated as sleeping 15:00:18 And if it's a low-tier stab enabler, maybe that's enough? 15:00:34 <09gammafunk> well I think the knife doesn't create any stab opportunities, right? 15:00:37 <09gammafunk> ??spriggan's knife 15:00:37 <04Cerebot> spriggan's knife[1/2]: The +7 Spriggan's Knife {stab, EV+4 Stlth+} is an unrand {dagger} that converts all {stab}s into sleep stabs, the most damaging kind. This knife was made by Spriggans, or for Spriggans, or possibly from Spriggans. Anyway, it's in some way associated with those fey folk. 15:00:48 <09gammafunk> yeah, it just upgrades existing opportunities 15:00:54 Well, it does, but only itself 15:01:10 also wiki says half of stabs, that says all stabs 15:01:13 not sure which is right 15:01:35 <09gammafunk> only itself? I'm saying if the monster wasn't stabbable at all, the knife doesn't do anything 15:01:59 50% it looks like 15:02:03 <09gammafunk> so it doesn't create new opportunities to stab at all 15:02:04 Oooh I see what you mean 15:02:23 <09gammafunk> whereas *Dazzle does, for example 15:02:27 Right, you're right 15:02:35 it buffs 50% of stab attempts to high tier 15:03:09 Right 15:03:10 <09gammafunk> so this boot could apply a debuff to create said opportunities, which is a concern any "stabber" generally has 15:03:20 Which is the direction I was thinking of it going 15:03:27 I mean I was planning on giving it at least a little damage 15:03:30 seems like it should 15:03:38 but less than e.g. hooves or the like 15:04:16 Main idea would be giving the opportunities 15:04:28 Not as good at is as say Usk ideally 15:04:37 cause that'd be OP 15:04:48 but reliable enough to make use of 15:07:25 <09gammafunk> seems like there's nothing that applies confusion in the unrand list (aside from something like chaos), so maybe that is one of the more balanced choices. you would want this to be pretty short duration confusion, I guess, 1-2 turns, with a fairly low chance? feels like it would still be very strong 15:07:32 <08wormsofcan> I mean, a boot that turns a short blade of the player's choice into an aux kick is pretty strong already 15:07:45 <09gammafunk> hrm, what about a *Confuse effect to help balance? is that weird for boots 15:07:53 I was considerign confuse too 15:07:54 <09gammafunk> yes, but that's an alternative idea 15:08:26 <08wormsofcan> it's the better idea :PlogChamp: 15:08:35 <09gammafunk> it's definitely the more """fun""" idea 15:09:10 <09gammafunk> and I feel it would have to only accept a dagger since the idea of a rapier in your boot seems weird (and also harder to balance) 15:09:29 <08wormsofcan> rip arc blade kicks 15:09:32 and even so, a +9 vampiric dagger might be OP 15:09:39 <09gammafunk> I guess there's just "magic" to explain it but the wider the class of weapons you allow the weirder the balance issues there are 15:09:48 <09gammafunk> well, again, it doesn't have to always trigger 15:10:07 sure, but the thing is, the less often it triggers, the less you can depend on it 15:10:09 <09gammafunk> it can have a lowish chance and then you have to make/find this weapon 15:10:13 <08wormsofcan> kicks already have a % chance of triggering 15:10:15 <09gammafunk> depend on it? 15:10:20 <09gammafunk> you don't depend on this 15:10:22 <09gammafunk> it's an aux 15:10:36 Right, but if say, 1 in 2 go through, or 2 in 5 15:10:39 <09gammafunk> you depend on your main weapon, which always attacks 15:10:54 it's like "what's the point" 15:10:56 <09gammafunk> um 15:11:05 <09gammafunk> so you never use like slay+3 because "what's the point"? 15:11:23 <09gammafunk> significant damage 20% of the time is outstanding 15:11:33 Sure, if it's significant damage 15:11:41 <08wormsofcan> I mean finding a dagger of distortion with this is insanely op 15:11:45 <09gammafunk> with a +9 vampiric dagger 15:11:46 <09gammafunk> extremely is 15:11:48 what I'm trying to say is that I feel like it might require too many stars to align 15:12:05 <09gammafunk> I think you're vastly underestimating how good the damage would be here 15:12:07 <08wormsofcan> the only star you need to align is a dagger of distortion :PlogChamp: 15:12:20 <09gammafunk> yeah I mean, literally any well enchanted dagger is going to add a lot of damage 15:12:22 if you don't already have a decent source of stabs, how much does a sometimes bootknife do for you 15:12:23 <09gammafunk> don't even need disto 15:12:36 <08wormsofcan> it'll do more than talons/hooves and those are also pretty good 15:12:40 <09gammafunk> it would add an entire fully enchanted dagger to your attacks sometimes 15:12:44 <09gammafunk> that is very good 15:13:04 If you actually have two really good weapons, sure 15:13:08 <09gammafunk> two? 15:13:27 <09gammafunk> it literally doesn't depend on what your weapon exactly is, it depends on you having a good melee attack 15:13:44 <09gammafunk> and we're not even talking stabs here 15:13:49 <09gammafunk> like when it stabs it's actually cracked 15:13:57 <08wormsofcan> 4 base damage would already outperform hooves/talons 1 and you get the boots 15:14:09 That's what i'm trying to get at, when it stabs it's cracked 15:14:09 <08wormsofcan> at least I think it outperforms the first rank of those mutations 15:14:31 But whenit doesn't, it's m aybe underwhelming? 15:14:39 <09gammafunk> it's not underwhelming.... 15:14:49 <08wormsofcan> oh i guess hooves is 5 base damage 15:14:50 <09gammafunk> I think you're not really thinking how damage works in practice 15:15:00 <08wormsofcan> still quite good 15:15:16 <08wormsofcan> not sure what talons is 15:15:19 <09gammafunk> you seem to think these boots should outperform your melee attack on average, or something 15:15:24 <09gammafunk> that's not what they should try to do 15:15:27 No, I don't think that 15:15:29 that'd be stupid 15:15:33 <09gammafunk> yes they might sometimes do that 15:15:46 <08wormsofcan> you might not think that but your arguments make it sound like you do 15:15:48 <09gammafunk> even on average with the right items and when your melee weapon isn't that good 15:16:19 What i'm trying to say is that if they don't get a stab in, for a stabber, getting in a low tier stab with their main weaponw ould probably be doing more 15:16:27 Much less a high tier 15:16:27 <09gammafunk> great! that's good! 15:16:29 <09gammafunk> that's correct! 15:16:33 Agreed 15:16:39 <09gammafunk> this is not and either or! 15:16:43 <08wormsofcan> i'm not sure what you're trying to argue tbh 15:16:44 <09gammafunk> this is in addition 15:16:52 <08wormsofcan> these boots are clearly at least as good as having hooves/talons 15:16:59 <08wormsofcan> and significantly better 15:17:04 <08wormsofcan> once you get a decent dagger 15:17:04 <09gammafunk> you get your (better) melee weapon and then you get something that's also quite good on top 15:17:36 <09gammafunk> if the aux worked like, when it triggered, your primary melee attack doesn't do damage, then it'd be a problem 15:17:40 <09gammafunk> but that's not what auxes do 15:17:45 I know that as well :D 15:17:55 <08wormsofcan> what are you arguing then? 15:18:16 I'm arguing that it'll be hard to make that not underpowered while also not being overpowered 15:18:33 <09gammafunk> well it's not really clear to me why you think that, exactly 15:18:37 <08wormsofcan> no just limit them to daggers 15:18:37 If you already have a good source of stabs, and two good weapons, one of which happens to be a dagger, it will be insane 15:19:01 I guess if we get the chances just right it's probably fine and I'm worrying too much 15:19:03 <08wormsofcan> sure, other unrands have similar things going for them 15:19:18 <08wormsofcan> if certain things happen they will also be extremely good 15:19:34 Because e.g. if it's never more than 50% chance, no more than 50% extra damage 15:19:55 And even if it scales to almost 100% like XL based often do 15:20:14 still wouldn't be end of world, still would need two really good weapons 15:20:14 <08wormsofcan> we don't need unrands to do more than 50% bonus damage 15:20:24 And Co can dual wield just as much 15:20:31 <02Monkooky> I'm not... sure if that was, like, an example apropos of nothing but 50% extra damage is extremely silly already 15:20:51 <08wormsofcan> there isn't some arbitrary benchmark that unrands need to satisfy 15:20:51 <09gammafunk> yes, just assume this 15:20:57 <09gammafunk> 1) the player has a good melee weapon 15:20:59 I was more saying if you have two weapons, and y ou're going to put the better one in your main slot 15:21:06 <08wormsofcan> the only thing they need to satisfy is "is it worth using this item over a plain item" 15:21:21 the second weapon can't add more than X% extra damage if it's a x% chance of triggering 15:21:32 <08wormsofcan> sure, but that's not relevant 15:21:38 50% and 50% just being arbitrary example of that 15:21:45 <08wormsofcan> most boot slot items don't add bonus damage 15:21:50 True 15:22:03 and most aux attacks take away (at least at top tier) some armour slot 15:22:08 (Hooves, talons, claws) 15:22:23 <08wormsofcan> well aux attacks don't proc if you have the slot equipped usually 15:22:50 That too 15:22:56 for some reason I was thinking rank 1 wasn't negated for some of them 15:22:59 but even rank 1 is 15:23:35 So maybe even that alone is good enough 15:23:49 <08wormsofcan> yeah so as long as the damage isn't trivial they'll be worthwhile 15:24:11 <08wormsofcan> even a pair of boots that is half as strong as a rank 1 aux attack is decent 15:24:21 <09gammafunk> we're almost certainly going to run into the problem of these being insanely good even with a lowish chance to trigger (significantly less than 50%) 15:24:25 <09gammafunk> rather than the other way around 15:24:28 <09gammafunk> if they can equip a dagger 15:24:38 <08wormsofcan> just halve the damage :PlogChamp: 15:24:52 <09gammafunk> yeah I guess there are always means to nerf 15:24:59 <09gammafunk> agree you don't want the chance to be too low 15:25:01 <02Monkooky> right- for reference, gauntlets of war are very very frequently best in slot because they give slay + 5 15:25:04 <09gammafunk> it does feel less exciting 15:25:20 <02Monkooky> imo an appropriate nerf is permanent barbs 15:25:21 <08wormsofcan> also they're +3 15:25:32 <02Monkooky> bc you stab yourself in the foot every step 15:25:35 <09gammafunk> fine, make them +2 and ship 15:25:37 <09gammafunk> done 15:25:48 That's all I was really trying to get at - some things may be very strong, without being super fun 15:26:18 <08wormsofcan> I mean we can also just make it so that it has a fixed damage and put the fun in the brand or something 15:26:25 True 15:26:45 The other thing I should have thought thru to point out tho 15:26:49 that does make this tricky 15:26:57 is balancing around AC 15:27:14 <09gammafunk> balancing around AC? like the AC the boots provide? 15:27:29 <08wormsofcan> we don't even have to give the boots the ability to stab, it's funny but if the non-stab damage is already significant then we can remove the ability to stab 15:28:06 <09gammafunk> like go back to the idea of them having a "built in" weapon that just does some damage/debuff? I was wondering if they could trigger this with a thing like *Confuse 15:28:17 <09gammafunk> I guess it's weird for boots to be a retaliation though 15:28:24 <08wormsofcan> nah have the player supply the weapon but it just can't stab 15:28:24 I mean that I'm not sure how good e.g. Talons 1 levels of damge would be against high AC enemies 15:28:24 <09gammafunk> you'd think of them more as an aux 15:28:33 <08wormsofcan> so you can have branded kicks 15:28:57 <09gammafunk> well, how strong talons 1 are isn't much of a concern, damage numbers are tweakable 15:29:06 <09gammafunk> these have no requirement to be strictly comparable to e.g. talons 15:29:25 I was considering going to straight aux damage, yeah 15:29:30 <08wormsofcan> anyway if the boots represent an extra weapon then it can't be that much better, it should be comparable to coglins 15:29:30 <09gammafunk> if they have some wacky brand they apply, they'll be good against high ac enemies by applying the brand 15:29:36 <09gammafunk> which then probably lets you stab or something 15:29:54 <08wormsofcan> pros: you can use a two hander with the boots, cons: you're limited to a dagger 15:29:55 Or could go the other way 15:29:59 keep damage low 15:30:02 but make it bypass AC? 15:30:04 like elec 15:30:14 <09gammafunk> really no need to worry about monster AC at all I think 15:30:17 <08wormsofcan> ye 15:30:23 Fair, I'm overcomplicating 15:30:44 <09gammafunk> I think this was never going to be a pure unflavored damage unrand 15:30:49 <09gammafunk> like e.g. talons 15:30:51 Agreed 15:30:55 should be flavoured somehow 15:31:15 question is whether it's about the effect (confuse or *something*) 15:31:20 or about the additional damage 15:31:33 <08wormsofcan> btw gammafunk, thoughts on juggler's gloves? :PlogChamp: 15:31:43 either can be a great buff for stabbers 15:31:46 <08wormsofcan> glove that removes the shield slot and adds 3 orb slots 15:31:54 <09gammafunk> lol 15:31:58 <09gammafunk> does this actually exist 15:32:01 <08wormsofcan> no 15:32:07 it'd need to remove weapon slot too? 15:32:17 <08wormsofcan> was just thinking about it since we have customizable slots now 15:32:19 And maybe it comes with one of the orbs (*Channel or something) built in basically 15:32:33 <08wormsofcan> people can juggle with one hand!!! 15:32:33 so that you only need to bring two orbs yourself 15:32:43 ok, make it so that you can either have 3 orbs, or 2 orbs and a staff 15:32:43 <09gammafunk> worms probably just watched Labyrinth (1986) 15:32:43 <08wormsofcan> also would be funny if the gloves have a -dex penalty since you're too busy juggling the orbs 15:32:55 (or another weapon) 15:33:05 and still one of hte orbs built in 15:33:18 to save you from having to actually deal with having 4 slots 15:33:38 and to make it not "where am I gonna find 3 orbs" 15:33:47 I think that's a hilarious idea though :D 15:33:53 april fool's day? 15:34:25 <09gammafunk> I would love if we could make orbs more viable to actually use, feels like some of the types still need some work, but I'm also not experienced with them much in general 15:34:57 <09gammafunk> but if we do that, surely we can green light worms' gloves 15:38:38 Considering trying 6 or 7 base damage (roughly in line with the other aux kicks, roughly in line with a base dagger) 15:38:41 plus confuse? 15:39:04 And then try to balance the chances 15:39:06 if fun then maybe we make it take an actual knife 15:39:14 but that's gonna be somewhat more implementation work 15:43:39 Ah, I can steal some of the balancing from fungal fisticloak :D 15:44:29 03Cgettys02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4376 * 0.33-a0-1091-g1eee06f056: Rework effect to confusion, split into own attack 10(72 seconds ago, 3 files, 25+ 31-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1eee06f05622 15:46:08 Bit better? 15:50:14 At XL 1, it has about a 50% chance of triggerign at all, can be blocked by shield like all aux 15:50:41 if it is not blocked by shield, it has a 1/3 chance (like fungal fisticloak, but minus the "unbreathing is immune" flavour related limitation) 15:50:43 of confusing 15:51:32 And the messaging feels funny too 15:51:55 You bootknife the gnoll. The gnoll appears confused. 15:54:23 I'm thinking that it might be cleaner if it's not equippable 15:54:33 Because people will be surprised if you allow only daggers in the slot 15:54:37 And then don't have them stab 15:54:49 (if it's not an equipment slot that is) 15:54:59 but Idk, still willing to go implement that if people think it'd be more fun 15:56:27 @wormsofcan, do you want to try to do the gloves, or if you're not gonna, want me to hack somethign together? 15:57:03 <08wormsofcan> nah it's more of a joke suggestion for now 15:57:13 <08wormsofcan> unless someone thinks three orbs is good :PlogChamp: 15:58:20 We could use it as an april fool's day joke at a minimum :D 15:58:38 03Cgettys02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4376 * 0.33-a0-1092-gb32f6b7b81: Flavor text 10(41 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b32f6b7b8117 15:59:05 Hedge wizard startswith juggler's gloves. 15:59:28 takes away shield and weapon slots 16:01:00 Provides *Channel, *Wrath, *CastWrath (where CastWrath is just wrath but applied when you cast insetad and is actually unique to the unrand) 16:01:37 Or something like that 16:01:45 *Channel, *Wrath, *Light? 16:03:22 Charlatan's orb, crystal ball of Wucad Mu, *Wrath? 16:03:26 Idk, probably a terrible idea 16:03:31 Just thought it was a funny idea 16:05:14 To be clear, I think the actual unrand idea sounds fun 16:05:32 I'm saying that maybe the april fools day joke I had is terrible 16:05:51 <06mumra> This is basically just adding two orb slots, since using any orb removes the shield slot already. Maybe the gloves should have some other drawback like negative AC, maybe reduce total AC by some % since you're less able to defend yourself 16:06:23 That could be fun, yeah 16:06:30 <06mumra> I find it very funny that you could juggle Zonguldrok tho (maybe Murray should have a % chance to turn into an equippable head on death too) 16:06:35 or take away weapon, but that might be too detrimental 16:06:42 <08wormsofcan> just give it -dex or -EV since you're too busy trying to juggle 16:06:42 (because enhancer staff) 16:06:59 Here's another terrible but funny idea 16:07:09 make it have a Dex or EV stat requiprement ot equip 16:07:15 I can't type 16:07:20 requirement to equip 16:07:29 cause you have to be coordinated enough to use it in the first place 16:07:34 <06mumra> i don't like -dex because it e,g, negates any attack bonus you might get from carrying multiple orbs of light 16:07:59 <08wormsofcan> do you get a larger halo if you carry multiple orbs of light....???? 16:08:06 <06mumra> taking away the weapon doesn't seem like a realistic option: nobody wants to lose their melee ability altogether 16:08:29 -EV makes more logical sense to me too, it doesn't make you less dextrous, just less able to use that dexterity 16:08:31 True 16:08:47 taking away weapon would make most sense for a "joke" / a pril fools day version 16:08:56 it doesn't have to be good if it's a joke, just funny 16:09:25 (and if anything, it's mayb desirable to have it be bad if it's a joke, so that nobody misses itif you remove the joke) 16:09:49 Can you carry multiple orbs of light today? 16:10:23 Anyway, the answer to that @wormsofcan I'm pretty sure is no 16:10:25 else if (wearing_ego(OBJ_ARMOUR, SPARM_LIGHT)) size = max(size, 3); 16:10:37 <06mumra> it's an extremely complicated thing to implement for a short lived joke 🙂 and the problem with jokes is they still have to live in crawl's code forever in some form for save compat 16:10:57