00:33:05 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.33-a0-1013-g375e5309dc (34) 00:55:50 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-1013-g375e5309dc 01:08:14 <04dracoomega> Oh, wisp form currently keeps ears if you have them. That's a funny mental image. 02:07:52 <12ge0ff> > any form that turns you entirely into a creature that has blood should also give you blood so Gr finally would be able to learn and cast SoB? 02:08:14 <04dracoomega> Oh, huh. I hadn't thought about that wrinkle. ...probably it's fine?? 02:08:19 <12ge0ff> (poor Djs would get only the bad side effects of that, though) 02:08:23 <04dracoomega> You're generally giving up your Gr AC entirely 02:11:26 <12ge0ff> it feels like "a form can't change your blood state" was in the same category as "a form can't override Stasis" 02:12:59 <12ge0ff> (also, isn't the blood status a part of a holiness package?) 02:14:12 <04dracoomega> Well, undead can't change form, and the 'non-living' players are sort of half-living, in practice, unlike monstes 02:14:39 <12ge0ff> (suddenly wandering if Dragon form Grs become breathing) 02:16:03 <04dracoomega> Apparently they don't, at present 02:16:06 <12ge0ff> nope, not yet 02:18:24 <12ge0ff> so should dragon form Grs lose their petrification immunity and torment resistance too? 02:19:13 <12ge0ff> (it feels like they should) 02:20:08 <04dracoomega> I think I am actually surprised that they don't 02:20:14 <04dracoomega> When you're clearly made of flesh and not stone 02:20:32 <04dracoomega> (I mean, they have -3 shapeshifting and losing their AC means this is generally bad, so this doesn't come up a lot) 02:21:08 <04dracoomega> But it sort of feels like if you gain the physiological resistances of what you change into (which statue/death demonstrate) that you ought to also lose them if you become fleshy 02:23:31 <12ge0ff> It's also a bit strange that Gr and Dj are in the same non-living category. If there were only Gr, the obvious solution would be to forbid them from changing form at all, since they are just sentient stone 02:23:34 <04dracoomega> (Since you mentioned it earlier, I see stasis as a weird magical thing and not a physical property of being an ant) 02:23:48 <04dracoomega> So no getting out of that one 02:25:48 <12ge0ff> there are plenty of (pop) culture examples of mummies being able to change form and become living, though 02:26:15 <04dracoomega> That may be true, but the 'undead can't shapeshift/mutate' is a pretty entrenched thing in Crawl 02:26:24 <12ge0ff> fr: let mummies shapeshift, but remove that from grs 02:27:15 <04dracoomega> (When I think about it, in what way are djinn 'non-living' aside from 'no blood, no need to breathe' at the moment? I... guess you can't be vamped from?) 02:27:27 <12ge0ff> more entrenched than the "no double wielding" from won't do list? 😉 02:28:21 <12ge0ff> having blood affects just vampirism and bloodzerk? 02:28:32 <12ge0ff> (and the ability to cast SoB) 02:28:43 <04dracoomega> The player can vamp creatures without blood, so long as they're living 02:28:50 <04dracoomega> (There's a lot of living things without blood, like all insect-adjacent monsters, for instance) 02:29:06 <04dracoomega> So djinn must be getting some special exception here 02:29:48 <04dracoomega> (I actually didn't know they couldn't be drained until literally checking it during this conversation) 02:29:48 <03wheals> fr: hemolymph 02:30:03 <04dracoomega> Vampire form does get a message about drinking that when you stab an insect 😛 02:36:29 <04dracoomega> Whoops, I sure made this comment into a lie when I changed it after adding sanguine talisman: // Forms take precedence over a species' base holiness 02:36:35 <04dracoomega> (Only the undead ones do >.>) 02:36:48 <04dracoomega> If you're non-living, I mean 02:36:54 <04dracoomega> Wait, no 02:37:01 <04dracoomega> Disregard that. 02:37:24 <04dracoomega> Misread a line. (But living forms don't make you living, unless every non-living form) 02:38:29 <04dracoomega> Could easily datify most of this now 04:33:59 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5261-gd9800d219b 07:28:47 <06dolorous_84348> Whoops. So many body parts (the functions for which would probably be easier to handle as Lua hooks, except I don't know enough Lua). 07:29:27 <04dracoomega> No worries. As I said, it's exceedingly trivial ^^; 07:29:47 <04dracoomega> (Arguably yaml-fication will make it easier to notice such things also) 07:29:57 <04dracoomega> It was how I noticed it in the first place 07:30:35 <06dolorous_84348> Indeed. (Although "Xom gave me ears, and now I hear!" seems funny too.) 07:31:10 <06dolorous_84348> And djinn being non-living is, I think, related to their being made of smokeless fire. 07:31:15 <06dolorous_84348> Lore-wise. 07:34:06 <04dracoomega> Well, sure; they're not made of flesh. Though I guess they felt 'alive' enough that I was surprised vampirism didn't work on them. 'Non-living' is usually a much more inert sort of thing. (Even raiju are living, despite being able to turn into lightning, for instance) 07:34:47 <04dracoomega> (And of course efreets are usually the same sort of thing as djinn in most settings, but those are demons here) 07:36:51 <06dolorous_84348> Maybe because fire elementals are nonliving, and smokeless fire is a subset of fire? And I'm not sure how efreets fit in there either. (Also, suddenly, I'm thinking of one of the monsters potentially insulting a djinni player with "Your mother was a fire elemental!") 07:41:21 <06dolorous_84348> But seriously, good luck with the yaml-ification. 07:42:30 <06dolorous_84348> (Incidentally, I've wondered if there's a way to yaml-ify all the special skill titles at some point down the line, but one problem at a time.) 07:48:11 <04dracoomega> (I have to do a bit more testing and some makefile things, but I think I'm mostly finished converting everything over properly now) 08:47:47 New branch created: pull/4331 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4331 08:47:48 03Isaac Clancy02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4331 * 0.33-a0-1014-g068fda2b1c: Fix the area grid not being updated on monster item unequip 10(20 minutes ago, 7 files, 65+ 27-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/068fda2b1ce7 08:51:05 03Isaac Clancy02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4331 * 0.33-a0-1014-g4c5540c64c: Fix the area grid not being updated on monster item unequip 10(23 minutes ago, 7 files, 65+ 27-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4c5540c64cb0 09:31:13 03Isaac Clancy02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4331 * 0.33-a0-1014-gdc659b5b92: Fix the area grid not being updated on monster item unequip 10(63 minutes ago, 7 files, 100+ 55-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dc659b5b92c3 09:35:59 Disjunction rework when 09:38:20 Dispersal does a better job at lover level 99% of the time. Randomly blinking enemies away in an aura is actually really bad unless it's pure melee and you are unlikely to worry about that at that stage of the game 09:38:33 can stay as xom effect but otherwise it can go the way of the centaur 09:39:03 Nerfed Singularity come back the dream 09:39:38 it was OP but the original reason for cutting it was literally 1 person forcing their views of EVERY SCHOOL CAN ONLY DO WHAT IT LITERALLY SAYS on everyone else 09:39:49 that's been an obsolete way to look at things for years now 09:39:57 so it can come back in a balanced form 09:40:05 or something else new 09:43:10 03Isaac Clancy02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4331 * 0.33-a0-1014-g227ddc6021: Fix the area grid not being updated on monster item unequip 10(75 minutes ago, 7 files, 101+ 55-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/227ddc60214a 09:57:14 <06mumra> %git e3e7556 09:57:19 <04Cerebot> kate- * 0.17-a0-1419-ge3e75563cf: Make Singularity a monster-only spell (10 years ago, 3 files, 2+ 8-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e3e75563cf90 09:59:44 <06mumra> You're ignoring the majority of the reasoning in that commit note; but I do tend to agree that translocations needs something exciting at level 9, it's just an extremely hard space to get right. 10:14:22 <04dracoomega> I will say that Disjunction does feel rather sad. Dispersal arguably has a stronger effect in the same space at only level 6 (and even if one can argue whether it's flat stronger or not, it's more than good enough at its job that it doesn't make training for a much harder spell in the same niche compelling). I've had a nebulous desire to do something to Disjunction for a while (though this is unlikely to happen in 0.33 at this 10:14:23 rate; 0.34 is quite possible, though) 10:57:43 <09hellmonk> Disjunction had more of a role when cblink existed and didnt work in Zot (bc if you trained cblink you could just get disjunction "for free") 11:03:32 <04dracoomega> I'm not sure how exciting it would be, even then (but not being able to even use ?blinking in Zot might tilt the scales slightly) 11:04:39 <04dracoomega> But I really do feel like its debatable whether Disjunction is even a stronger effect than Dispersal in the average cast. Yes, it's a more continuous blink and tries to make them move away, but the non-trivial chance for Dispersal to teleport a monster (and also always working immediately on everything in range) is something Disjunction can't do 11:06:15 <09hellmonk> It's more mp efficient and (importantly) more turn efficient than repeated dispersals. Much better for stuff like Zot ninja imo. For "regular" use it's not better often enough to be worth training though 11:08:05 <04dracoomega> It does sort of feel like Zot ninja-ing and 'weird zig stuff' are the main actual use cases that still exist 11:08:28 <09hellmonk> also the effect is very complicated under the hood, which is not ideal. I think we can't even display the blink chance on it bc it depends on time taken and distance in some complex way 11:08:49 <04dracoomega> Yeah, the formula is really opaque 11:09:06 <04dracoomega> (I did dive into it a couple months back when me and Index were chatting about the spell) 11:10:05 <04dracoomega> In a nutshell, it performs the effect once per 1 aut, and the chance of blinking depends non-linearly on the distance between you and the monster. So in a normal turn, it does this 10 times, potentially blinking the same monster multiple times (with different chances each time) 11:11:16 <04dracoomega> Which definitely makes it non-trivial to display the chance of anything 11:13:06 <04dracoomega> (I mean, I am largely fine with 'complicated formulas for a good cause', so long as the surface-level effect is either straightforward enough or not something the player has to worry about, like gen, but it's not clear that this is buying something worthwhile out of it) 11:31:20 <06mumra> Guessing that was an attempt there to make it work independently of player speed? Wondering about tying it to monster turns instead. So each monster in the aura has a chance to be blinked on their turn. (Perhaps, they can lose a turn when this happens ... so it has some extra utility that monsters are getting less actions while it's up) 12:12:07 <04dracoomega> Yes, it's certainly about making it independent of player speed. (And sure, there's ways you could make the formula a little more transparent or whatever, but I kind of feel like I want to rethink it a little more comprehensively than just that.) 12:12:24 <04dracoomega> I don't remember all of what came up the last time I was brainstorming on this topic, though 12:12:53 <04dracoomega> Also: I sure wish I could figure out why the makefile is seemingly refusing to run the command to generate form-data.h, despite it being nearly a one-to-one copy of things that do work >.> 12:13:56 <04dracoomega> (Like, running the command myself works, but that's not the point :P) 12:18:28 <04dracoomega> Oh, I guess this works 13:07:59 <09gammafunk> It's not just because it sees that form-data.h already exists and the mtime of its dependencies are not newer than form-data.h itself? 13:10:38 <04dracoomega> Nah. (It's that it needed to be generated earlier, and several headers that also seemingly need to generate at the same time are in the 'generate later' category and possibly only work because their generation is caused by a chain reaction from files in the previous category 13:10:59 <04dracoomega> I think 15:45:10 <09hellmonk> Clearly what we need is a forge/tloc disjunctor array that switches to singularity mode when it dies 16:20:39 <08nicolae> singularity form 16:21:11 <08nicolae> all the monsters get pulled towards you and take insane damage as they get smushed up against you but they're also hitting you the whole time 16:40:24 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.33-a0-1013-g375e5309dc (34) 17:45:22 03dolorous02 07* 0.33-a0-1014-g8cb532ef1d: Mark Po as non-armour users for trove purposes. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8cb532ef1dc4 23:35:19 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-1014-g8cb532ef1d (34) 23:51:48 New branch created: pull/4333 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4333 23:51:50 03Isaac Clancy02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4333 * 0.33-a0-1014-gcb0fa93cc4: Don't become a religious traitor when switching good gods (A0rika) 10(17 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cb0fa93cc40c 23:57:44 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-1014-g8cb532ef1d