00:37:01 <06regret-⸸nde※> These are all... quite weird. * The rockfish school feels like a bunch of weird complexity compared to just being able to come in a herding band considering the wallwalking is already a sufficient gimmick for an earlygame enemy (and they're given pretty heavy stats for something starting at D:3 that can make it hard to escape; they're stronger than the deeper ufetubi or marrowcuda in the same swarming space, while overlapping 00:37:01 somewhat in concept with the latter's fish-creation mechanics). * The wolf lichen have a(n accidental?) 50%-chance irresistable AF_VEX instead of any mentioned flanking which is quite murderous for a D:4 banding monster (both a lot earlier than marauders and utterly wrecking the mostly-short-ranged mage starts). Using the literal flanking mechanic present in-game would be very close to the monsters using it in that level range (ufetubi), also. * The 00:37:02 strolling stone as a consequence is also extremely aggressive. * The silver fish has severely undertuned damage for a basically post-Lair enemy while also using up silver star flavour when Purgatory 100% was going to bring back heavily revised silver stars. (I'm not entirely sure Zin is much of a god for puns, either?) 00:38:55 <06regret-⸸nde※> Talking a little bit with DracoOmega while she works away at her current acid-refactoring project, I think making rockfish a bit deeper as regular banding herd monsters, and using lichen as just wall-walking summons of a far-less-strong, slightly earlier strolling stone would be fairly closer to something pushable. In terms of later use of wall-walking mechanics, I'd probably be much inclined to use it in, say, Crypt (which 00:38:55 never got a second pass-over and which is full of mostly-vanilla melee monsters or monsters shared with other branches). In terms of late-D variety through spreading more holy monsters, I've been a little curious about Peri as high-stats bolt-of-light-slinging holy fairies (connecting both the Depths holy branch and Depths' fae themes to close-by D) that could be also usable in Purgatory entry vaults / possibly in the Ely quadrant of Purgatory itself, 00:38:56 but none of the tile artists have offered much for such. 00:40:34 <04dracoomega> I largely agree with everything she's said here, for the record, but I do want to emphasize that whatever refiguring I'd want to do with the monsters, I'm glad to see this! ^^; (Strolling stones are rather cute, honestly.) 00:42:16 <04dracoomega> (Also, I'd kind of previously thought of using Peri in Shoals, but those plans were pretty nebulous. Certainly, 'earlier holy monsters' is something I can get behind in general, but I'm not really sold on the particular concept of silver fish.) 00:44:01 <04dracoomega> I do wonder at wolf lichen as an actually early D thing (with a less terrifying attack flavor) as a 'gentle introduction' to the mechanic, and putting pairs of stone fish at like... D:8-ish? I do think the 'school you split into multiple sub-monsters' is a fine thing in general, but marrowcudas do feel a bit like they have the 'fish that makes other fish' thing on lockdown in that depth range 😛 00:47:26 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-964-g555990002e 00:48:01 <04dracoomega> (One very minor thing I like conceptually about wolf lichen is that it gives more than one monster that earlygame Fedhas actually pacifies in any way >.>) 00:48:40 <04dracoomega> That passive is virtually 0 value in earlygame 00:48:59 <04dracoomega> (Not that this would change that by very much, but...) 02:12:46 <06mumra> Yes this all sounds like good direction. I'll admit after many iterations I was getting stuck exactly how to finesse this. Vex was an experiment to add some other flavour to them and at one point they slightly later, but yes I knew it was way too strong but I thought I'd just PR to get overall feedback. ...And when I started the rockfish school idea Marrowcudas didn't even exist 😉 02:24:45 <04dracoomega> Oh, ha 02:25:12 <04dracoomega> (To be clear, I don't even think it's a bad idea for something to do at some point - just probably not this thing in that place ^^; ) 02:33:07 <06mumra> The "part 2" which I left out to keep this PR manageable for reviewing the actual wall walking mechanics, consists of a much later-game "cobalt lichen" which is actually a small set of lichen monsters that each have different appendages that buff each other in different ways (plus a base appendage-less one). These I had aimed at Depths (while removing slime creatures from the D spawn list completely), but they could be tweaked for Crypt 02:33:07 instead. (I should note I have some further possible Crypt additions to come as well) 02:46:20 <04dracoomega> removing slime creatures from the D spawn list completely Er, why? 03:02:35 <06mumra> To reduce monster duplication between V and D/Depths 03:04:47 <06regret-⸸nde※> This isn't an unreasonable goal, but the answer there is mostly to add monsters to V and not take away monsters that function fine in late D. 03:05:02 <04dracoomega> In fact, slime monsters are at their most relevant in D 03:05:13 <04dracoomega> (If we were removing them from one of the two places, Vaults would be it, imo) 03:05:23 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Besides, slime creatures get an actual meaningful difference in V through beastmasters joining their bands.) 03:05:30 <04dracoomega> I suppose that is true now, yes 03:06:46 <04dracoomega> (I said 'at their most relevant' largely because the more corridor-centric layouts in D make them much more troublesome to deal with than Vaults often-more-open layouts do) 03:07:41 <06regret-⸸nde※> (The current rough plans involve replacing... V's boulder beetles and necromancers, and ideally also ugly things.) 04:26:32 <06mumra> Boulder beetles aren't in V as far as I can see? 04:31:07 <04dracoomega> They are 04:31:19 <04dracoomega> (In the 'easy' pool, but they're there) 04:32:18 <06mumra> oh yes, missed it. they're in quite a few places aren't they 04:33:29 <04dracoomega> Yeah. (I mean, they're good enemies, and rightfully terrifying early, but Vaults is definitely past their shelf life) 04:34:18 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5261-gd9800d219b 05:04:51 <06mumra> To try and consolidate what you and index have said; - Wolf lichen move to early D, and only spawning as Strolling Stone summons? - Rock fish move later, and spawn in small packs w/herd - (Silver fish dropped) I worry at this point there's not much to distinguish lichen and rock fish; lichen already used herd anyway. And rock fish seem strictly more boring than lichen when lichen come from a stone monster. An alternate would be to make 05:04:51 rock fish the "early introduction" and move strolling stones to D:8; ideally i'd like wolf lichen to then have some minorly toxic attack flavour. irl wolf lichen are one of the few toxic lichen, partly why i chose them as well as being a cool name -- the toxin is "vulpinic acid" but corrosion seems a bit strong as well 05:12:39 <04dracoomega> For what it's worth, I am not actually sure that wolf lichen need to only be from strolling stones. I do agree that they could benefit from having some attack flavor (even if I am not immediately sure what it is; poison is already reasonable prevalent early, AF_WEAK is possible but probably not terribly compelling, AF_ACID isn't... out of the question, imo, depending on where they are placed, though getting a bunch at once from 05:12:40 strolling stones does make that even nastier. However, I'm of the opinion that rCorr isn't enough in enough places in the game, so I might give it some thought) Really, a bunch of this depends a lot on where they do end up being placed. There's a world where wolf lichen are aimed at being an early D 'intro to wall-moving' monster and rock fish are close to Lair, and there's a world where something closer to the opposite is true - and this affects what 05:12:40 they can do. I do think wherever they are needs to a fair bit further apart than in the PR, though, at the very least. 06:33:21 <06mumra> Thinking just in terms of this point; we have sleepcaps at D:4-8, then beyond D:8 there are no plant monsters until other branches. Maybe placing at say D:8-12 then is best to give Fedhas something more to do in the portion of dungeon where you've just picked up a god ? 06:34:01 <06mumra> Most other pros/cons of either option seem to balance out so this is what's swinging it most for me 06:35:09 <06mumra> (It's a weird interaction if the strolling stone is shedding friendly lichen, unless the stone itself bends the rules and is also considered an ally under Fedhas) 06:35:33 <04dracoomega> No stranger than what happens with curse toes, imo 06:35:42 <04dracoomega> Arguably even less 07:20:10 <06mumra> Having never taken a fedhas char so late in the game I did a quick test on this ... yes seems rather ... cursed 07:21:10 <04dracoomega> It's wonky, but also kind of funny, imo 07:21:22 <04dracoomega> Tug of war between divine and unholy power 11:25:50 03Aliscans02 {dolorous} 07* 0.33-a0-965-g4bdad0dc50: Use plural verbs in _xom_time_control(). 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 12+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4bdad0dc5086 14:02:53 03nlavsky02 07* 0.33-a0-966-g77bb7ed3da: feat: make &H recharge batform, Po's Cacophony, and Re's Memories 10(25 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/77bb7ed3da16 14:02:53 03nlavsky02 07* 0.33-a0-967-g50f50cedb2: fix: remove Po's spiteful retaliation attack 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/50f50cedb2b1 14:19:07 03nlavsky02 07* 0.33-a0-968-gdf518dbf55: docs: update Alchemist description (Kab) 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/df518dbf5596 15:57:53 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-969-gbe30b90cc8: Fix player Revenants not taking bonus damage from Shatter 10(28 hours ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/be30b90cc8ed 15:57:53 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-970-g6381969a2e: Refactor many things about corrosion effects / resistances 10(14 hours ago, 52 files, 159+ 199-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6381969a2ee8 15:57:53 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-971-gaa83346545: Refactor malmutate versus monsters to accept an agent 10(14 hours ago, 13 files, 17+ 33-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aa83346545de 15:57:53 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-972-g5299482de4: Fix up various debuffs not triggering Trickster 10(17 hours ago, 21 files, 43+ 38-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5299482de49f 15:57:53 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-973-g56e99acd2c: Remove a meaningless enchantment 10(12 hours ago, 3 files, 1+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/56e99acd2c12 15:57:53 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-974-g6954e95ee6: Fix vampiric thralls being immortal (Oneirical) 10(7 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6954e95ee62f 15:57:53 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-975-g99610d196a: Fix vampire inhibited regeneration not working properly 10(7 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/99610d196add 15:57:53 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-976-g1c17e8307f: Change a few things about vampire blood-drinking and thralls 10(7 hours ago, 4 files, 63+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1c17e8307f13 15:57:53 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-977-g50231a2b66: Make monster revenants claw you instead of hit you 10(7 hours ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/50231a2b665b 15:57:53 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-978-g307a816d8e: Change how Trickster AC bonus stacks and expires a little 10(35 minutes ago, 2 files, 18+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/307a816d8e47 15:57:53 ... and 3 more commits 16:16:32 04Build failed for 08master @ 4732f408 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/13446255222 16:19:33 03dolorous02 07* 0.33-a0-982-g113915ce07: Remove now-obsolete enchantment reference. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/113915ce0750 16:39:25 04Build failed for 08master @ 113915ce 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/13446533558 16:39:30 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.33-a0-981-g4732f40816 (34) 16:59:41 03dolorous02 07* 0.33-a0-983-g2faa50a443: Make monster account for corrosion changes. 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2faa50a44350 16:59:41 03dolorous02 07* 0.33-a0-984-g14800dbadd: Fix monster warnings about now-obsolete attacks. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/14800dbaddc5 17:51:25 anet (L5 SpWr) ERROR in 'mon-util.cc' at line 5075: invalid kill category (D:4) 17:52:48 anet (L5 SpWr) ERROR in 'mon-util.cc' at line 5075: invalid kill category (D:4) 17:54:49 anet (L5 SpWr) ERROR in 'mon-util.cc' at line 5075: invalid kill category (Sewer) 17:55:43 anet (L5 SpWr) ERROR in 'mon-util.cc' at line 5075: invalid kill category (Sewer) 20:03:17 Can I trouble someone for a review and merge of this bugfix? 20:05:53 03Cgettys02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4312 * 0.33-a0-957-g820e8b571e: ci: fix checkconventionalcommit.py 10(3 days ago, 2 files, 6+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/820e8b571e51 20:08:05 03Cgettys02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4312 * 0.33-a0-958-g476300779f: ci: fix checkconventionalcommit.py 10(53 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/476300779fba 20:09:12 03Cgettys02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4312 * 0.33-a0-958-g9ca9c889da: ci: fix checkconventionalcommit.py 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9ca9c889da90 20:12:28 03Cgettys02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4312 * 0.33-a0-958-g60f39b825a: ci: fix checkconventionalcommit.py 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/60f39b825ac6 20:12:55 ugh, I need to figure out how to exclude draft pushes from spamming, sorry 20:13:35 03Cgettys02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4312 * 0.33-a0-957-g2efcd22a15: ci: fix checkconventionalcommit.py 10(3 days ago, 2 files, 4+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2efcd22a158c 20:25:26 I don't recall their being a way; cheibriados is pretty dumb, it just dumps every commit it sees 20:28:48 03dolorous02 07* 0.33-a0-985-g45e6bba2ff: Rename a few tiles: palentonga -> armataur. 10(7 minutes ago, 3 files, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/45e6bba2ffa4 20:37:26 sigh 20:46:44 !crashlog anet 20:46:48 26. anet, XL5 SpWr, T:2333 (milestone): https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/anet/crash-anet-20250221-005542.txt 20:47:00 !crashlog anet 2 20:47:01 2/26. anet, XL9 HOHW, T:9097 (milestone): https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/anet/crash-anet-20200131-025759.txt 20:47:05 !crashlog anet 26 20:47:06 26. anet, XL5 SpWr, T:2333 (milestone): https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/anet/crash-anet-20250221-005542.txt 20:55:28 interesting 23:35:34 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-985-g45e6bba2ff (34) 23:53:31 New branch created: pull/4323 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4323 23:53:32 03radio-gra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4323 * 0.33-a0-986-g064b0ddba0: console: draw waypoints over other items and features 10(31 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/064b0ddba0f7 23:58:41 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-985-g45e6bba2ff