00:27:36 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.33-a0-602-ga33de6ed39 (34) 00:55:21 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-602-ga33de6ed39 04:33:21 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5249-g4a8afe7061 05:14:21 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.33-a0-602-ga33de6e (34) 09:33:20 03nlavsky02 07* 0.33-a0-603-gebbabaea00: fix: spike trap kills giving no XP/piety 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ebbabaea0093 09:41:53 <04dracoomega> Oh geeze, really? >.> (Feels strange I wouldn't notice that when that's one's main source of killing things early on) 09:48:53 aaaaaaaaaaa 09:49:31 sorry, object on keyboard 11:28:32 <12ebering> @implojin looking at old notes, I have one that reads "Implojin level feeling serials-follow up". I recall the suggestion of adding "level feelings" from some interaction with you where I suggested you make some serial vaults to implement this. do you have longer brainstorms/thoughts/ideas to throw at the wall? 11:45:25 <09gammafunk> alex tried to add something very similar to that idea and had a partialy complete branch 11:46:46 <09gammafunk> but iirc one of the main issues was coming up with level themes that were compelling. One of the first ideas he went to was "undead" and perhaps "demonic" came up (I don't actually remember what the other themes he implemented were, if any), but it didn't get a great reception 11:47:31 <09gammafunk> I think the feeling was that it's challenging to come up with compelling thematic sets that haven't been done to death in a lot of other contexts like branches, portals etc 11:58:42 <12ebering> undead and demonic are implemented and in game 11:58:48 <12ebering> there's also a rivers one 12:08:54 <12ebering> oh, I guess I implemented demonic lol 16:40:33 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.33-a0-603-gebbabaea00 (34) 19:24:49 <03implojin> I have some text docs... somewhere, with a bunch of old idea sketches for terrain, "shrines", and level feelings, and a couple of branches that look like they were meant to be early skeletons for some of this (but are now probably bitrotted as they're ~4 years old). Looking at what I can find, the ideas I had here for terrain and shrines seem a lot more compelling than level feelings -- iirc the basic idea underlying this was that 19:24:49 crawl gameplay could benefit from having more tiles-that-do-things, with some examples here being a torch feat that increase the player's LOS by one while standing in the torch radius, dust clouds that decrease LOS, blood pools that grant a chunk of HP when first moved into but vanish after a time, long grass that would act as a fog cloud until an attack crosses the grass, things like this. I think re: serial vaults that I had wanted to tie these 19:24:50 features more deeply into level generation because I'd wanted to do something like using a pathfinding step to be able to emplace feats near areas of higher or lower traffic; e.g. placing torches near doorways to make stepping into a room more dangerous, or placing lowvis feats along the outer edges of rooms to encourage player movement patterns different than "lure things back to chokepoints". Anyway this was all years ago and there are several 19:24:50 ideas here, yes, but also some of the design space for shrines has since been somewhat stepped on with gems -- shrines were conceptualized as near-term incentives for players to dive a floor using a countdown timer similar to portals. 19:26:53 <03implojin> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1321303122672357520/Screenshot_2024-12-24_20-26-28.png?ex=676cbeed&is=676b6d6d&hm=0d0c57c3955b751441d360a622740cda0bc585829d7380c0e4deccbb47ee934c& 19:30:40 <03implojin> If I were going to do this today I think I'd want to focus mostly on terrain, rather than level feelings: still feels like there's lots of space there 20:27:44 <06regret-⸸nde※> There's a fair bit of terrain effects in a variety of other traditional roguelikes (and I could elaborate for paragraphs across half a dozen games). Despite my level design (and monster design) focus in my revisit over here, I've been very reluctant to do much on adding more meaningful mechanical terrain because people already complain about / centralize their strategizing around kiting to feature benefits (in the form of 20:27:45 stairs) due to being a game with minimal significance in its regular clock, and with the reduction of one of the least obtrusive established terrain differences historically (deep water out of the watery lair branches). 20:31:10 <06regret-⸸nde※> (I do think we could expressedly benefit from less extreme + highly themed trap options alongside current inherited traps- a bunch of the recent monster planning + tiling of mine was to get more debuff effects readied for such. I'm not optimistic about much else, though, between all of those prior mentioned bits and how awkward e.g. agrid effects are in console.) 20:34:40 <06regret-⸸nde※> (I guess there's a few additional forms of non-plant firewood I've got planned that could help fill out more "level feeling" serial vault themes: pillars of flesh, stacks of scrap, petrified flowers. Over there I'd rather just try to make batches of reusable theme decor vaults to expand on a floor's given mini/vaults, like what I did with tekkud_swamp_unearthing_site.) 20:37:58 <12ebering> ty for sharing the ideas, a lovely early christmas present 20:37:58 <12ebering> the "place near terrain/modify traditional terrain" has kicked loose some cogitating, maybe I'll come up with something workable during this window of crawl time I've got 20:37:58 <12ebering> I think my 1st target is gonna be a layout_cloud_network that can be used in salt and tar (the latter w/a new half opaque rot cloud) 20:41:46 <04dracoomega> I do kind of conceptually like the idea of things affecting player sight radius, but I fear that they suffer from some unfortunate limitations here. Like, when I mulled it over first after you were saying it, the idea of 'torches that make you more exposed' actually feels like kind of a natural fit for the new holy branch. ...except we can only ever increase it by 1 or the game (apparently) breaks (and not even that for barachi). 20:41:47 Wonder about maybe a short-range mark-equivalent? (Incorporating these more flexibly into normal level gen is certainly somewhat hard, and there's the general issue of "If terrain is bad for player, player tries not to be in that area." Which I think works fine if the terrain is so omnipresent that you can't possibly ignore it (ie: water in Swamp or Shoals) or in some way created mid-fight by enemies, or in specific vault arrangements. 20:41:59 <09gammafunk> one thing I really wanted to see for salt was a better realization of the cloud-as-terrain idea 20:42:13 <09gammafunk> where clouds actually temporarily turned into solid terrain 20:42:25 <09gammafunk> and perhaps continued a cycle of shifting from cloud to terrain 20:42:41 <04dracoomega> It's possible some Pan floors could use some things in this veins and make them common on that one floor, as one of the possible 'level themes' we were planning to give them anyway. This is a place where you can't just leave and go elsewhere, either. 20:42:47 <09gammafunk> PF was receptive to the idea, especially from the standpoint of making Salt into an actual branch 20:42:57 <09gammafunk> but of course long ways from a mere idea to an implementation and there are potential issues 20:43:23 <09gammafunk> I think some of the work advil did with doors and items could prevent possible item destruction issues 20:43:46 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Thinking a bunch about how _ghost_tricky_traps just gets teleport-scroll'd-before-opening-the-door, as with many ghost vaults relying on runed doors.) 20:44:38 <09gammafunk> well hopefully necropolis will mostly address that; I personally always thought of that vault as a specific exercise in teleport hijinks, fwiw 20:46:07 <09gammafunk> not to mention how the remaining runed door and transporter vaults that don't get moved to the new portal will always have said teleport issue to some degree 20:47:40 <04dracoomega> Do transporter vaults really have teleport issues, though? You can't just let the monsters out in the way that some other vaults allow you to read ?tele and then open a door (and find stragglers elsewhere). I have always kind of liked the 'mini-portal' sort of nature of the battles in some transporter vaults (it's just that the framework that lets you often put them off quite a lot later that makes some of them less interesting in 20:47:41 practice, imo) 20:48:46 <09gammafunk> well it's not as severe as runed door vaults, no, but the fact is you can very easily teleport out of transporter vaults to complete safety. This is in addition to the fact that you can guarantee that the outside level is completely safe ahead of time 20:48:59 <09gammafunk> something you can't (always) do with a typical nasty vault 20:49:31 <04dracoomega> That is true, but you do still generally have to be able to survive a very dense encounter long enough to do that. You're not making much forward progress if you are pre-reading ?tele each time (and costing lots of scrolls to do so) 20:50:25 <09gammafunk> yes, you can't pre-read and "open" the vault, so it is a more extreme problem for runed door vaults 20:50:36 <06regret-⸸nde※> My focus on ghost vaults is more their hyper-prevalence throughout the game and their capacity to take up Depths floor vault slots more than runed doors being inherently troubled; there's a lot less issues with transporter vault gameplay in general (since getting in, partially clearing enemies, and getting out has a lot more risk than just teleporting after opening a runed door), but also the runed door vault count 20:50:36 post-Necropolis won't nearly equal the, uh, ~4.5 per game ghost vaults currently represent. 20:51:28 <09gammafunk> I think the teleport issue for transporter vaults is significantly worse than for a standard vault, but it's worse still for rune door vaults 20:51:43 <06regret-⸸nde※> (In the rough same vein I'd prefer not to have runed doors for branch ends at all, as I adjusted for wormcave and would eventually like to figure out a change for cheibrodos_lair_end_hotspot.) 20:53:25 <09hellmonk> if I ever finish hellcrawl 2 I want this shit for it btw 20:54:47 <09hellmonk> transporter vaults also have the convoker issue, which is probably "even worse" in some abstract theoretical sense 20:55:07 <09gammafunk> yeah true, for Vaults this is kind of silly 20:55:15 <09gammafunk> and also Swamp to some extent 20:55:29 <04dracoomega> The convoker issue is a thing that seems fixable, though 20:55:49 <04dracoomega> Like, it seems feasable to just not let them convoke stuff out of them 20:55:58 <06regret-⸸nde※> Adjusting either means of convoking to ignore monsters on no_tele_into squares seems fine and relatively easy to figure out. 20:56:02 <09gammafunk> but there seems to be a rough consensus that runed door/transporter vaults are mostly "fine" (save for a couple issues) so long as they're not very prevelant 20:56:47 <09gammafunk> there's also the question of whether people like backtracking to these vaults since they're relatively difficult 20:57:08 <09gammafunk> with a kind of rough consensus that people don't either love or hate that, from what I can tell 20:57:59 <09gammafunk> and if r-i does implement necropolis, we should probably go head and no_tele_into all runed door and transporter vaults that remain outside the portal 20:58:10 <09gammafunk> I guess we can just do that whenever 21:02:36 <04dracoomega> (As Index said earlier, more trap types would be useful in several places - Tomb most of all, to dilute some of the use of dispersal traps and such. I know she had a list of some general ideas for such; something I will probably take a look into myself by the time we're actually doing the extended revamps, even she or someone else doesn't get there first.) The more I think about it, the more I think newPan is a great place to try 21:02:37 and use new terrain effects in, both due to wanting a lot of level themes and because of its structure. And there may be room for features that work well there to be acceptable in smaller quantities elsewhere even they are quasi-decorative elsewhere, if that makes any sense? 21:03:19 <09gammafunk> also possibly equalizing its difficulty a bit with Hell given a potential rune reduction? 21:07:23 <04dracoomega> That was part of the general plans, yes 21:08:05 <04dracoomega> Possibly Hell gets a touch kinder (players will be doing it a bit earlier, and with less XP), and Pan gets a bunch meaner. If they're alternating, they should be closer to equivalent in danger - just in different ways. 21:09:10 <09gammafunk> "Hell Got a Touch Kinder" already sounds like a potential release name 21:09:27 <09hellmonk> don't put my personal life in the release title 21:09:44 <09gammafunk> Hellcrawl 2: The Huggening 21:11:26 <04dracoomega> (All this feels like 0.34 plans at this point, by the way. Still got lots more to do on the species stuff, and then I want to do talisman things, and a handful of smaller stuff. And at that point, I think it's almost certainly too late into the version to do something so majorly impactful. But it is one of my big priorities for 0.34) 21:12:53 <04dracoomega> The extended revamp has so many different things going into it. And as a change of that magnitude (breaking 15 runes for the first time in Crawl history!), I don't want it to feel like any part of it is 'not quite complete' when it hits stable, you know? 21:13:23 <09hellmonk> 0.34: turned down to 11 21:13:32 <04dracoomega> Haha 21:14:19 <04dracoomega> (Also, it's 12) 21:20:45 <09gammafunk> I'm glad since I haven't even thought about what dropping the max rune count will do to scoring 21:20:52 <09gammafunk> both for sequell and CAO 21:21:28 <09gammafunk> CAO might be the one to worry about since there are a lot of scoring tables, but maybe not is specifically pegged to 15 runes per se 21:25:31 <04dracoomega> I mean, one used to be able to get far more than 15 runes, and there's still data from back then, right? 21:43:10 <09gammafunk> yeah those games are in sequell/CAO, but cao has a bunch of category-specific pages 21:44:23 <09gammafunk> the "all rune" table on the overview might really be the only one that knows about the rune limit 22:12:14 New branch created: artpropfixes (2 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/artpropfixes 22:12:16 03gammafunk02 07[artpropfixes] * 0.33-a0-604-ge1f6a78b0f: Improve aspects of randart property assignment 10(10 hours ago, 2 files, 209+ 108-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e1f6a78b0f81 22:12:16 03gammafunk02 07[artpropfixes] * 0.33-a0-605-g42bc0f1cf9: Reroll items that conflict with any fixed artprops 10(8 hours ago, 3 files, 104+ 57-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/42bc0f1cf9f5 22:13:59 <09gammafunk> @pleasingfungus Curious as to what you think about the issue with the dragon-blood talisman and intrinsic rF++/rC- mentioned at the end of https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e1f6a78b0f8128a0c205f3bf0d162862450702c6 Once I merge this branch, intrinsic properties can be appropriately enhanced, but for dragon-blood talisman I've followed your lead and kept the rF++/rC- out of that listing, since it's not present for draconians. 22:13:59 Perhaps we could allow it to be intrinsic only for non-draconian species? Making anything intrinsic for this talisman for draconians is a bit problematic, since the player doesn't know their color at game start 22:18:02 <06pleasingfungus> hm 22:18:20 <06pleasingfungus> draconian / dragon form stuff is cool but very weird 22:18:32 <06pleasingfungus> would need to spend a while thinking to have opinions on this; don't have any offhand 22:18:46 <03implojin> re: player reception I think it can be helpful to frame things like this as temporary incentives that go away after some time, to encourage players to chase them down, rather than static disincentives that can be used indefinitely; going back to the earlier example of torches one thought I'd jotted down was to frame them as something like a "flashbug cage" that could be stepped into and rattled to give off a burst of blinding light 22:18:47 that affects everything except the player, but if the player leaves them alone for long enough they lose their energy to flash. Also, to some extent there's always going to be player grousing around positional incentives that do anything beyond encouraging walking things back to the nearest staircase ad nauseam: I do think there's merit in ignoring that and doing the mechanically-interesting thing anyway. If we have solid ideas, players will come 22:18:47 around. 22:22:23 <04dracoomega> Really, I would consider the rF++/rC- to be a property of the form and not the talisman, if that makes any sense? I am not sure it should actually affect properties can show up on randart talismans either way. (Like, I wouldn't have thought it was inappropriate for a dragonblood talisman with rF- among its modifiers, and would have expected that to leave me with rF+ in the form) 22:23:03 <04dracoomega> (Which does also mean no special wierdness with draconians, I think) 22:24:18 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Honestly, I kinda wanted to change dragon form from fire dragon form to golden dragon form anyway as part of giving it Draconian style breath- it gives other directions that can go besides being red draconian two, and if it's going to be a low AC-and-EV form it could do more rather than less resists- which would sidestep these issues.) 22:24:42 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Not all of them, I guess.) 22:25:21 <04dracoomega> I broadly agree with the idea of "Let players grouse and do the interesting thing anyway." (for sufficient values of interesting). My concern at first is less 'people will be annoyed at how they want to play around these things' and more "Will this effect be too easy to simply ignore/circumvent/not bother to deal with in normal play, due to Crawl's strucure?" (To be clear, this is not opposition to the general idea or even to trying 22:25:22 a bunch of things out. There's a lot of unexplored potential here! It's more like "A thing I'd personally be keeping in mind if I was exploring this") 22:26:22 <09gammafunk> well, that's contrary to how talismans currently work. They have special code at present to avoid randart properties that conflict with the form properties 22:26:25 <06regret-⸸nde※> My concern for positive effect terrain, compared to negative effect terrain, is a lot closer to "encouraging more luring" than "encouraging more caution". 22:26:57 <09gammafunk> although really dragon form is probably the only one where this issue is particularly important 22:27:15 <04dracoomega> Should they, though? (This is news to me, and of course randart talismans aren't exactly an old thing either) 22:27:16 <09gammafunk> and it's notable that dragon talisman just doesn't list the rF++/rC- properties (only rpois) 22:27:51 <04dracoomega> I was planning to make randart talismans relatively more common when I do talisman stuff later in 0.33 also, since I think it's interesting combinatorics on what the player might choose to use. 22:28:36 <09hellmonk> I think that positive terrain can work in crawl in a very limited set of circumstances, would probably not want to randomly generate it 22:28:57 <09gammafunk> It does feel similar to me to the issue of getting a randart staff of fire that gives your rF- 22:29:02 <04dracoomega> I've wonered a few times if dragon form leaning more into the breath attack as a major thing that you do (maybe draconian-style or maybe in some other manner) might be more interesting than just 'You are a glass cannon that does immense melee damage'. I mean, that's not even what dragons do in Crawl - the breath is the big thing. 22:29:18 <09gammafunk> doesn't feel like something you'd actually want, even if it is amusing, I guess 22:29:31 <09hellmonk> reduce storm form blinkbolt damage increase dform breath damage perhaps 22:29:38 <04dracoomega> (I mean, nobody wants negative resists on anything; it's a question of whether the whole package is worth the downside) 22:30:04 <09gammafunk> it's not just that question though, there's the issue of theme 22:30:17 <09gammafunk> obviously yes you can evaluate whether the item is a net positive 22:31:15 <09gammafunk> I'd grant that form resists are slightly different that straight equipment properties like for a stave, but they're not that different either. A fiery dragon with rF- seems a bit silly to me 22:31:17 <04dracoomega> (I guess a dragon talisman that is was fire-resistant than other talismans wouldn't even make me blink, theme-wise. But as you say, this is a very minor issue in the vast majority of cases) 22:31:52 <04dracoomega> Can you even get multiple levels of negative resist on a randart? I didn't think you coul. 22:31:56 <04dracoomega> Meaning they're still at least rF+ 22:32:23 <09gammafunk> I'd need to review that code to be sure, I think there's a rule about "no more than 2 negative aspects period" 22:32:28 <04dracoomega> (This is not exactly something I feel passionate about, to be clear, but it also simultaneously sidesteps the wierdness of how to handle draconians here) 22:32:31 <09hellmonk> specifically I think if you put "good terrain" deep in a vault that is otherwise hostile, it can maybe work as a way to encourage something other than luring every monster out of the vault (because the vault is giving you a good place to fight in). Have to be careful with this stuff in context of players being able to lure the rest of the level into the vault ofc. So I'd probably play around with it in portal branches first, or some 22:32:31 place with stricter space concerns and/or time pressures (pretty much just extended I guess?) 22:33:15 <09gammafunk> well, for draconians, you can simply not include the rF++/rC- at all, and that seems reasonable enough; I was more thinking it'd be good to include it for non-draconians 22:33:33 <09gammafunk> but yeah any "solution" to this issue will involve some case consideration 22:34:55 <06regret-⸸nde※> I had been tallying up portals I'd want to do more assessments of (for figuring out themes for further trap types) and was kind of annoyed the only natural homes for More Gimmicks are wizlabs (half full of gimmicks, half full of just random flavoured encompass vaults) and bailies (which I only have one new monster concept readied for >_>). 22:35:59 <09hellmonk> I think you could cram some gimmicks into gauntlet, depending on what the gimmick is 22:36:34 <09hellmonk> if you wanna really get insane mode with it maybe we need another portal vault type? idk what that would look like though 22:37:15 <03implojin> magitek research facility. 22:39:12 <06pleasingfungus> iirc the reason randarts talismans avoid properties that conflict with innates is to match other randarts, e.g. randart dragon scales or resist rings, etc 22:39:31 <06pleasingfungus> i believe that randart staves of fire cannot give rf- 22:39:34 <06pleasingfungus> though i could be wrong 22:39:51 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I guess I am saying that somehow this feels different to me than that, but that may just be vibes 22:40:16 <09hellmonk> you mean some kind of laboratory, perhaps made by a wizard? 22:41:35 <03implojin> reverse engineered by kobolds, perhaps 22:42:11 <12ebering> perhaps something out in the open 22:42:15 <12ebering> a memorable serial vault 22:42:50 <06pleasingfungus> cpp static bool _artp_can_go_on_item(artefact_prop_type prop, const item_def &item, const artefact_properties_t &extant_props) ... _populate_item_intrinsic_artps(item, intrinsic_proprt); if (intrinsic_proprt[prop]) return false; // don't duplicate intrinsic props if (item.base_type == OBJ_TALISMANS && _talisman_conflicts(item, prop)) return false; like, to be clear, 22:42:51 this is the code that prevents eg randart staves of fire of rf- 22:43:00 <06pleasingfungus> of of of 22:43:13 <09gammafunk> yes, my branch modifies that function 22:43:17 <06pleasingfungus> wow 22:43:31 <09gammafunk> specifically to allow extension of intrinsic props 22:43:39 <09gammafunk> rather than just a full veto for any interaction 22:43:47 <06pleasingfungus> ok, re-reading your commit and original message 22:43:59 <09gammafunk> the questio was just whether rf++/rc- should be considered for dragon-blood now 22:44:07 <06pleasingfungus> hm 22:44:09 <06pleasingfungus> seems like a big mess tm 22:45:18 <06pleasingfungus> apologies for misreading originally 22:45:20 <06pleasingfungus> very tired atm 22:46:18 <09gammafunk> no worries, it's not a terribly important issue in the end 22:46:53 <09gammafunk> and I think it's literally only relevant for one talisman since conflicting props are really only a thing for rF/rC anyhow 22:46:58 <12ebering> two terrain thoughts. first one is that interesting modifiers for e.g. stairs and doors can be achieved with variant features (stairs might make for something complicated at the builder stage). but "bright stairs" that are +los when (on|in sight|recently used) is an example idea (similarly "bright doors". loud doors? sticky doors?) 22:47:05 <12ebering> second is 22:47:12 <12ebering> (agrid issues aside) 22:47:29 <12ebering> terrain that offers a simultaneous positive to everything in sight but not a universal positive 22:47:41 <12ebering> spell enhancer? 22:48:04 <09hellmonk> turn lom lobon's water moat into juice that makes you brilliant 22:48:07 <12ebering> not quite that but in the same vein: gong/amplifier/loud room (big sound) 22:48:07 GONNNNG! 22:48:07 <04Cerebot> GONNNNG! 22:48:17 <03implojin> agrid issues were mostly packing it for console display iirc? been a minute since i looked at any of this 22:48:29 <12ebering> yeah console and VI access 22:48:57 <09hellmonk> me when lom lobon steps in the juice that makes you brilliant and casts polar vortex with more hd than normal: 🤯 22:49:30 <03implojin> oh, spell enhancer was one of my shrine notes 22:49:33 <03implojin> > desecrated ground > > necromancy amplifier? [this is too character-specific..] > archmagi effect? > > (maybe this grants archmagi + a defensive skill drain?) 22:49:45 <03implojin> think you'd want brilliance rather than archmagi 22:50:19 <04dracoomega> I do recall agrid stuff being surprisingly annoying to deal with and display, code-wise 22:50:33 <04dracoomega> (When I did it for Fathomless Shackles) 22:50:54 <12ebering> yah. shackles is not very parseable as a console player 😦 22:51:03 <12ebering> (I might have some fixes) 22:51:37 <04dracoomega> (This is part of why I never tried to do any aura effects for monsters afterward that were less than LoS-wide. That one is easy to display ^^; ) 22:52:42 <04dracoomega> But obviously feature you stand in / next to / have in sight are all easy ways to go about this - both implementation-wise and visually 22:53:04 <04dracoomega> (Even if they have their own limitations also) 22:53:16 <12ebering> yah, I think to duck agrid isssues I might accept that constraint, still lots of space to play with 23:04:18 <03implojin> re variant features maybe lowvis could be accomplished with "gloom walls" that drop LOS to 2 while standing adjacent 23:05:06 <09hellmonk> is that significantly mechanically different than using semiopaque clouds to drop los 23:05:12 <09hellmonk> I guess you get to have a wall too 23:05:53 <12ebering> ya its p different from clouds in that you can place other clouds! 23:05:53 <09hellmonk> I do think adding wall types could work, but they might work better as negative terrain like slime walls, since walls are "intrinsically good" 23:06:28 <12ebering> slime walls are a real good example here 23:08:07 <09hellmonk> brain wall in cigotuvi that makes you smarter but you get contam 23:10:27 <12ebering> fun house mirrors in xom vaults that randomize your stats when you're adjacent 23:10:36 <09hellmonk> lol 23:11:04 <09hellmonk> loud walls that reintroduce the noise bug that made walls multiply noise instead of dividing it 23:11:06 <03implojin> > snow, > > which reduces any noise crossing the tile by a significant amount 23:12:22 <09hellmonk> ice tiles that slide anything that walks on it an extra tile in the same direction they just moved each turn until their direction changes or they aren't on ice anymore 23:12:48 <09hellmonk> did I pitch my sand tile idea to you yet 23:12:54 <03implojin> electrified sewer tiles, which make players hate you. personally. they do nothing else 23:13:52 <12ebering> I think so yes 23:14:00 <12ebering> sand costs double to switch between but normal when you're in 23:14:05 <09hellmonk> ya 23:14:20 <09hellmonk> I think could be a fun "water" variant in some context 23:14:37 <09hellmonk> idk if that context exists in crawl 23:14:46 <09hellmonk> but in a fork maybe 23:14:46 <04dracoomega> This feels like an overused effect, frankly. Perhaps something different? 😛 23:16:30 <09gammafunk> I should try to implement solidifying clouds just to see how weird it is in practice 23:17:42 <12ebering> I had an alternate take on that to accompany the cloud network: make salt clouds have an effect on stealth check/forgetfullness (distance up or however that mechanic works) and damp sound like walls, while still being clouds 23:18:06 <12ebering> so that if you had something where they were like walls they'd feel a bit more wall-ey 23:18:10 <12ebering> for certain chars 23:18:12 <09gammafunk> hrm, interesting 23:35:25 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-603-gebbabaea00 (34) 23:38:55 <04dracoomega> Currently debugging stuff through the advanced system of 'a permanently bound rat who casts malmutate 100% of the time, which can only give me hooves, while I repeatedly move a plant in and out of its line of fire so I have time to put equipment back on' 23:39:51 <04dracoomega> (Working on getting mutations that cause gear to fall off working properly with the new equipment slot system) 23:57:36 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-603-gebbabaea00