00:23:31 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.33-a0-565-ge59816bd28 (34) 04:35:43 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5249-g4a8afe7061 05:17:46 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.33-a0-565-ge59816b (34) 15:04:02 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-566-gaf1b155deb: Remember to call apply_location_effects after Crocodile movement (Zeldest) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/af1b155debab 16:39:52 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.33-a0-566-gaf1b155deb (34) 18:31:22 <06wensley> a thread with some feedback on forgecraft https://old.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/1hb8ct1/thoughts_on_forgecraft/ 18:46:22 <06regret-⸸nde※> I feel like the quality of feedback mentioning things like the school with OTR, irradiate, yara's, and fulsome fusillade should also get lightning spire, diamond sawblades, and paragon isn't really of the level to pay much attention to. 18:49:28 <06regret-⸸nde※> (If anything, it's sort of weird to see just how much people state there's too much overlap with the new school and other concepts, while five damage schools had been struggling for many years to properly differentiate and vary the ways they deal damage.) 20:40:22 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 20:40:23 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 22:26:11 <06wensley> right, I think that bottom-ranked comment is ignorable and doesn't invalidate the other comments in the thread 😛 22:28:13 <06wensley> for example, oneirical, who is overall positive on forgecraft, thinks rending blade could be buffed 22:33:02 <06regret-⸸nde※> * I suspect Launch Bomblet should actually get an animation, because the number of times people don't realize it does any damage before it explodes is still baffling (once more nobody reads the message log). * Rending Blade is repeatedly being approached on Forgewrights, where it is a poor fit because one does indeed have a better rest of a starting book, and I'd like to hear more from the angle of it being the starting 22:33:02 capstone spell it is for Reavers. Not many people play reavers in general, though. * I'm not personally convinced that Paragon is that much stronger than Polar Vortex, which they also argue back and forth on. 22:39:26 <04dracoomega> I mean, the person that said it was broken also had a Lochaber Axe on it, which sounds like quite the high roll (and it's fine if high-roll synergies are extra good). There's been a fair bit of feedback on that one in #dcss, compared to other high level forgecraft spells, and I've not gotten the idea that there was any consensus of it being too good. Like "extremely good" but level 9 spells ought to be. Rending Blade does have 22:39:26 some mechanical issues I hope to improve on another pass of working at it, though it's expected to be a lot more useful for reavers than forgewrights, sure. (I thought Launch Bomblet did have an animation. Did I overlook this? ^^; ) 22:40:00 <04dracoomega> (I'd read the whole tread already, by the way ^^; ) 22:44:36 <04dracoomega> This is not the first time I've seen some people express that it's too similar to Summonings, but in each case I've also seen a larger number of people disagree with them. Personally, I think it's at a similar level of distinctiveness from it as, say, Fire is from Air, despite both of them having lots of direct damage, in large AoEs, that sometimes come with distinct risks of self-harm in the process. To be honest, I think some of 22:44:37 this sentiment is historical, in that almost all ally-creation spells went through that school, so it feels like ally-creation spells only belong there. I don't think there's any particular reason that had to be true (any more than 'all attack spells should be part conjurations - something that used to be far more true and which we've increasingly moved away from. I suspect that is the sort of thing that improves over time, even without anything 22:44:37 else being done about it. 22:47:08 <06regret-⸸nde※> I do continue to argue that Alembic should actually have a visible charge up status so people can notice the obvious difference it has from regular summons (in disappearing after a few hits). 22:47:29 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Also so weird people don't miss how, like, a third of the school is based off of charge-up and then complains Paragon has a charge-up attack.) 22:47:39 <04dracoomega> I'm not sure how much it helps to give an indicator light to 'has punched things a couple times' 22:48:09 <06regret-⸸nde※> Closeness to doing the effect (and closeness to thus disappearing) is pretty relevant versus reading the message log for such. 22:49:06 <06wensley> personally I think it's fine if forgecraft has some conceptual overlap with summonings, just like it's fine for the elemental schools to have some overlap re: "blast a guy for damage". until reading this thread I didn't even realize that forged things can't be abjured, which is a cool distinction and having more of those would be cool 22:51:04 <06wensley> what's neat about Martyr's Knell is that it has a built-in indicator light via its health bar 22:51:08 <06regret-⸸nde※> They... they already have quite a few distinctions. 22:51:32 <06regret-⸸nde※> ??forgecraft[2] 22:51:32 <04Cerebot> Forgecraft[2/6]: Forgecraft constructs in general don’t get mad or disappear on hit, and the good god trinity doesn’t care about damaging them ever. All of them are non-living constructs that get rPois rN+++ rMiasma and can’t be abjured (built and not summoned!); all besides Battlesphere, Rending Blade, and Awaken Armour can be {LRD}’d. 22:53:50 <06wensley> it may be that there's no good in-game way to teach the player the distinction between "construct" and "summoned thing", so it might just require time for that knowledge to percolate out via folklore 22:55:31 <04dracoomega> I mean, they have different icons now 22:55:36 <04dracoomega> Rather specifically 22:56:06 <04dracoomega> (The game even says 'minion' when examining such things instead of 'summoned'. This also applies to zombies and simulacra and other such things) 22:56:25 <04dracoomega> Technically this was done before Forgecraft itself, in the big summoned creature refactoring I did prior to that 22:57:41 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Maybe there'd be something of interest to helping people look up monster statuses more than just the look-up menu for player statuses? There are a bunch of things monsters can have that players can't (and also a lot of newcomers absolutely do not notice the existence of in-game look-up).) 22:59:57 <06wensley> does that mean, in theory, the good gods wouldn't care if you hit your own zombies, because they're minions? 😛 23:00:09 <04dracoomega> I mean, that was always technically true 23:00:43 <04dracoomega> Well, maybe not, actually? 23:00:47 <04dracoomega> Anyway, I also refactored/rewrote that end of things for consistency. 23:01:39 <04dracoomega> So that in general, gods don't get angry at you hitting things that also don't get angry at you hitting them. It used to be weirdly non-symetrical. For instance, lightning spire would get 'angry' and go poof if you hit it, but Ely wouldn't be upset if you did so. But spellforged servitor wouldn't get upset if you hit it, but Ely would penance you anyway. 23:02:13 <04dracoomega> Now mindless nonliving things universally neither care about being hit nor angry gods for you hitting them 23:35:22 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-566-gaf1b155deb (34) 23:57:20 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-566-gaf1b155deb