00:02:44 <04dracoomega> Just a little status report, for those who haven't caught any of the discussion in the other channel. I officially finished implementing the last of the new spells for the forgecraft project earlier today (and have moved on to shifting existing spells into forgecraft, complete with tweaks and adjusted descriptions). There's still a handful of smaller things to do, and another numbers pass on several new spells, and then some local 00:02:45 test games, so I'm not quite almost done, but it's a significant milestone. 00:04:02 <04dracoomega> I'd like to think it can be ready for trunk in a week and a half or so, maybe? 00:26:33 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.33-a0-298-g559140af29 (34) 00:55:32 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-298-g559140af29 00:58:44 New branch created: pull/4110 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4110 00:58:45 03cadi02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4110 * 0.33-a0-299-gac35fa6eed: add webtile's mousehover description for expiring status 10(22 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ac35fa6eed37 04:32:04 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5249-g4a8afe7061 08:06:31 <06pleasingfungus> draco: woo-hoo! 08:06:37 <06pleasingfungus> h y p e 08:21:00 <08nicolae> 08:44:52 raetorn (L19 DjFE) ASSERT(in_bounds(mg.pos)) in 'mon-place.cc' at line 2931 failed. (Spider:2) 10:49:10 New branch created: pull/4112 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4112 10:49:11 03yrdzrfxndfvh02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4112 * 0.33-a0-299-g5b77873d1a: make doom howl noisy 10(83 seconds ago, 1 file, 10+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5b77873d1a0a 13:16:47 good day for doom howl 13:32:12 New branch created: pull/4113 (902 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4113 13:44:41 03PleasingFungus02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4113 * 0.27-b1-1-g89dfdd3575: Make dancing launchers prefer ranged (gammafunk) 10(3 years, 4 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/89dfdd357525 13:44:41 03advil02 {gammafunk} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4113 * 0.27-b1-2-g8387495791: fix: default bind F1 to CMD_GAME_MENU 10(3 years, 4 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/838749579139 13:44:41 03advil02 {ebering} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4113 * 0.27-b1-3-gb154809285: fix: exclude autofight paths that can't see the target 10(3 years, 4 months ago, 1 file, 9+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b154809285e2 13:44:41 03gammafunk02 {ebering} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4113 * 0.27-b1-4-g09f6641f8c: Update the changelog through 0.27-b1-2-g8387495791 10(3 years, 4 months ago, 1 file, 66+ 38-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/09f6641f8c3a 13:44:41 03kate-02 {ebering} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4113 * 0.27-b1-5-gde723625f2: Update hints mode 10(3 years, 4 months ago, 8 files, 132+ 220-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/de723625f28f 13:44:41 03advil02 {ebering} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4113 * 0.27-b1-6-g187eb10c97: docs: changelog updates 10(3 years, 3 months ago, 1 file, 30+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/187eb10c976a 13:44:41 03kate-02 {ebering} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4113 * 0.27-b1-7-ge2211ef6e3: Adjust some tutorial text 10(3 years, 3 months ago, 2 files, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e2211ef6e396 13:44:41 03PleasingFungus02 {ebering} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4113 * 0.27-b1-8-gb744cae13a: Embellish the changelog 10(3 years, 3 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b744cae13ac9 13:44:41 03kate-02 {ebering} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4113 * 0.27-b1-9-g60cb836914: Fix spelling 10(3 years, 3 months ago, 3 files, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/60cb83691491 13:44:41 03ebering02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4113 * 0.27-b1-10-g8d509066fb: fix: give a hasty item warning for non-armour Rampage (u/Delicious-Most5180) 10(3 years, 3 months ago, 2 files, 5+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8d509066fb6d 13:44:41 ... and 892 more commits 13:44:42 <04dracoomega> Oh boy. PRs for a fork 13:44:42 <04dracoomega> '902 commits' 13:44:42 <12ge0ff> just a casual +118,922 −12,505 13:44:42 <04dracoomega> Dear lord, I didn't even notice the diff size 13:46:06 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 13:46:06 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 13:55:46 <03implojin> yeah i saw that beast of a translation fork mentioned by the author earlier and ... sure it seems like a good idea, in principle, but who on earth has time to review it 13:56:19 <03implojin> nice pr desc 13:56:20 <03implojin> > A few suggested corrections 13:58:21 <04dracoomega> I actually skimmed the translation data format manual the fork provided and it does seem quite complicated to even create a translation of relatively simple things in it. But more concerning is the author's own admission that it took years of work to incorporate the internationalisation framework that they did (during which countless things in mainline that would involve it have been added or changes) 13:58:37 <03implojin> mhm 14:00:21 <04dracoomega> (It was unclear to me if also changed/simplified a bunch of messages in English also. They did say they had to remove some 'cleverness' that was used in a bunch of places, and it's not clear to me whether this is good or bad) 14:00:58 <04dracoomega> (Was unclear how much of that was backend versus surface-level) 14:03:48 <04dracoomega> Either way, while a proper full translation of Crawl is an admirable goal, I always felt it was completely impractical given how the game's text is structured, and I'm afraid that despite the obvious mountain of work put into Alphabet Soup, I'm not sure it's changed my mind on that. It would be one thing if Crawl was 'complete', but keeping that sort of thing in sync with such a dynamic game seems... well, it seems like at least a 14:03:48 full-time job, frankly >.> 14:43:03 <04dracoomega> On an unrelated note, as I again delve into the 'redistributing spells between spellbooks' phase of the forgecraft project here, I am reminded of my past advocacy for single-spell parchments as a common spell source, with books being allowed to contain more spells as appropriate and being the 'rare' drop >.> 14:47:03 <04dracoomega> The former accomplishing the desirable goal of offering a very randomized subset of tools for the player to cobble a progression out of, with the latter being something more likely to actually encourage a player to do a full pivot into something (by offering enough related spells to make that feel worthwhile if you're not already adjacent to it) which I feel current books do very poorly. Which also improves the spellbook shop UI and 14:47:03 removes the need to make books have certain specific strictures on spell frequency (done manually) and exactly how many things are allowed to correspond to a given theme. 14:47:52 <04dracoomega> On reviewing them today, I've noticed that Grave Claw somehow is only in 1 book, while Gavotte is in 3. My own mistake, but easy enough to make when rearranging so many things. 14:51:09 <04dracoomega> (It's a more minor thing, but I also feel like back in the day, individual spellbooks might be recognizable in a way that they aren't anymore. Either looking for a particular book or being excited to see that specific one in a shop. These days there's just so many of them, and their contents are a lot less distinctive from each other, that at least to me most of them blur together) 15:14:17 <04dracoomega> (Also, making manual flavor groupings of spells be load-bearing for actual overall drop frequency has recurring awkwardnesses, imo) 15:25:44 <12ge0ff> The only concern with 1-spell parchments is how many of them are going to be required to stay close to the current drop rate for spells. It's not rare to find 3-4 books on a single floor, but having 9-16 parchments per floor feels kinda excessive. If it's books + parchments, then it could be up to 1-2 books and 8-12 parchments? 15:27:03 <04dracoomega> Yeah, obviously more of them would drop than books do now. (Last time this came up, I said we could cut a lot of weight out of stones and such :P) 15:27:19 <03implojin> i guess this might have an impact on density of loot in vaults? 15:27:25 <12ge0ff> no, not the stones! :kobold: 15:27:57 <04dracoomega> Vaults being able to place stones as a 'good_item' right now is very sad (and even if any random spell is equally useful for most characters, they do at least feel like something) 15:28:32 <03implojin> cutting weight from stones / cutting stones sounds fine of course 15:28:48 <04dracoomega> Yeah, like... there's ripple effects here that I don't know the entire shape of, but every time I have to redistribute things, I think I grumble slightly more at it ^^; 15:30:11 <04dracoomega> (By spell count, I probably need to add 8 news books in this push, and I don't want them all to be entirely forgecraft-themed (which would be more than any other school gets) then I need to pull handfuls of spells out of other things to spread amongst them, and I can see this taking quite a while, tbh >.>) 15:31:59 <06regret-⸸nde※> If there's any need for a second lever one way or another, I do have to adjust a fairly of vault loot for the current push I'm doing on the ghost vault portalification process, since many of the smaller ghost vaults provide nothing or next to nothing and that needs to shift to work as subvaults here, and thus can easily tweak that in one direction or another here as needed. 15:44:17 <04dracoomega> I don't really want to hold forgecraft up on however long it would take to work out such a systemic change (it's taken me long enough already, imo) but if it's something with enough support to try out, I'd probably be 'looser' with book distribution and design in the short term (and put less effort into writing cute descriptions for every one of them >.>). Heck, this isn't going to be the last time in 0.33 that I add or edit a 15:44:18 spell. Like, the planned change to Piledriver likely also makes it no longer appropriate to be in Maxwell's Memorandum on flavor grounds, which would leave that book with 2 spells, which means something would have to be pulled in from another book, and then there's the whole domino effect that keeps happening from even small changes. 15:44:50 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Ice caves and volcanoes also rely on loot functions that can be tweaked up slightly towards parchments if desired- a quick look at the former makes me suspicious of the Lair-branch-depth placement of evokers since they'll often become random quality-uncorrected wands at that point, for example.) 15:58:20 <06regret-⸸nde※> (On the note of adjusting vault rewards in the context of spellbooks, though: it's been relatively difficult to use more than a small number of obvious unrand books in theme vaults or shops due to a lack of any particularly sortable or coherent documentation on what is in where- book-data.h can't be reorganized without screwing up save-compat, the learndb barely documents this any more, and 15:58:21 http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Spell_book#Standard_books sure is full of Script Error.) 15:59:27 <03implojin> finally, a compelling reason to break save compat- 16:02:11 <06regret-⸸nde※> Also in terms of documentation, I feel like a reasonable demonstration of the affairs at hand is that the header for book-data.h has "A spreadsheet accurate as of June 2021 can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RCWRO_fltNQDAlbF2h1wx8ZZyulUsyGmNNvkkogxRoo/edit#gid=0" in it, which hasn't been touched since 0.29. 16:04:53 <04dracoomega> (For what it's worth, book-data.h could totally be reordered if we did spellbook lookup via a map of enum->contents instead of in a fixed order. It would just take doing.) 16:05:26 <04dracoomega> But at present, I don't think visual reorganization of books would help much with anything since the themes of a lot of books are fairly muddled anyway 16:05:37 <04dracoomega> (Like, what would you sort them by?) 16:06:35 <04dracoomega> 'Book of [Spell School]', 'Book of [AoE shape]', 'Book of [Things Found in Bogs]' 16:07:50 <06regret-⸸nde※> ...Four sections of "starter book mock-up", "stuff clearly meant to be single-school", "highly specific theme jokes like great wizards or trismegistus", then "giant pile of miscellaney organized by highest spell level in the school" still doesn't sound that great, I'll admit. 16:08:43 <03implojin> on the topic of "what books are even recognizable anymore", off the top of my head i can only think of "necronomicon, annihilations, unrestrained analects, and party tricks" 16:09:53 <06regret-⸸nde※> Trickster Pact's going to be too low level to suit the Grand Grimoire in terms of demonic summoning spells, right? 16:09:59 <04dracoomega> I remember a couple more than that by virtue of having either made them or edited them heavily, but even I can't keep more than a couple straight 16:10:15 <04dracoomega> Almost certainly. (I was assuming level 5, honestly) 16:11:43 <04dracoomega> Really, more than the limitation of '~3 spells per book' the real thing that makes working with stuff this way hard is 'each spell should appear in exactly 2 books'. There's a lot of books that have holes with something that could obviously fill it if that something wasn't already used elsewhere. But using it more times very tangibly affects how often the spell shows up in-game. 16:11:47 <06regret-⸸nde※> Clearly, the replacement for Menagerie should have some unholy flavouring to it to help with the new divide of the holy trinity being fine with all of forgecraft but hating a starting book spell and the only level 8 spell. 16:12:52 <04dracoomega> 'Each spell appears in exactly 2 books, and each book has exactly 3-4 spells, and spells are not paired together in more than one book' is basically an optimization problem that we are doing regularly, and by hand ^^; 16:13:12 <04dracoomega> (And then trying to write a nice little flavor blurb about our choices afterward :P) 16:13:28 <04dracoomega> Like, to be clear, I love some of the silly jokes in spellbook contents/descriptions 16:13:32 <06regret-⸸nde※> Surprised there's no travelling salesman shop vault yet, honestly. 16:13:40 <04dracoomega> It's the part where they're mechanically load-bearing that it's the regular issue, imo 16:16:34 <04dracoomega> On reflection, one nice thing about single-spell parchments is that their frequency can trivially be adjusted individually 16:17:07 <04dracoomega> Such that if certain spells end up being in multiple theme books, it can just have a lower weight as a single spell to keep the overall distribution more even, if we wanted 16:17:53 <04dracoomega> (Might even be possble to automate this?) 16:20:48 <08nicolae> do you mean as in the famous NP problem, because i've had the idea for a vault with a consistent shopkeeper name that can appear in any branch, including a few very rare subvaults for portals based on subvaults (desolation, i think some ice caves have subvaults, maybe even gauntlet if gammafunk doesn't kill me first, etc.), themed as a traveling salesman who's willing to sell in even the most remote of places. 16:23:15 <04dracoomega> I wonder how often people notice individual shopkeeper names? (But yes, she surely meant that in response to me talking about optimization problems, since that's one of the most famous) 16:24:26 <08nicolae> i was thinking consistent as in consistent between games, like a shopkeeper unique, so you would see (e.g.) "Honest Nick's Traveling Wares" in the Abyss or someplace and think "thank you, honest nick, for these wares, in my time of need" 16:24:37 <04dracoomega> Ha 16:24:46 <04dracoomega> Mildly cute 16:25:02 zentaur (L21 MDFi) Crash caused by signal #11: Segmentation fault (Abyss:4) 16:25:56 <08nicolae> mildly is enough for me! 16:30:09 uh? 16:30:36 !crashlog zentaur 16:30:36 1. zentaur, XL21 MDFi, T:62616 (milestone): https://cbro.berotato.org/morgue/zentaur/crash-zentaur-20241105-232454.txt 16:31:53 hm, was that not already fixed? player knocked back by a dead monster 16:40:13 <08nicolae> also, re: the distribution of spells within books: what if they were all randbooks and the descriptions were procedurally generated based on what was in them, like how panlord tiles match up with their descriptions 16:42:43 <03implojin> .32 crash, maybe it wasn't backported? (or was never fixed to begin with, making dinner, don't have time to look into this this second) 16:42:46 <04dracoomega> That seems an unnecessary loss to me 16:43:14 <04dracoomega> (Also: I think I may never have actually gotten to fixing that. I've been so sidetracked, sorry >.>) 16:43:32 <04dracoomega> Got a long list of things I want to touch up and fix after this big project is ready to go >.> 16:44:43 <06regret-⸸nde※> I'd much rather there be procedural randart flavour for what randarts already exist before trying to take already-written already-coherent flavour for what are essentially unrands and dividing that up arbitrarily. 17:14:51 <08wormsofcan> finally, we can franchise in crawl 17:15:20 <08nicolae> i've been franchising 17:17:55 <06regret-⸸nde※> I'd expect more of an Orc styled theme vault that just puts most of its loot in different styles of community that each incidentally have the same shopkeeper name than ever actually breaking the rules of no shops in non-bazaar portals or the Abyss. 18:31:49 03geekosaur02 {Implojin} 07* 0.33-a0-299-gc96b193c27: work around crash in actor::knockback 10(4 weeks ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c96b193c278a 18:32:56 03geekosaur02 {Implojin} 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32.1-2-g700d293bfd: work around crash in actor::knockback 10(4 weeks ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/700d293bfd59 18:33:14 ah right, I did fix that 18:33:29 <03implojin> thanks again! 18:34:06 yes, it'd be nice to do it a different way, but I suspect that'll be more work than it initially looks like (yay crawlcode) 18:34:12 <03implojin> yeah, rip 18:46:07 <04dracoomega> I did want to try preserving directionality in this case, but of course that is why I hadn't actually pushed a fix yet >.>; 18:46:39 <03implojin> i mean, it's fine if you want to do a proper fix later, just wanted to prevent the crashes in the meantime 18:47:36 <04dracoomega> No, no, that makes sense 18:47:49 <04dracoomega> I was more or less just apologizing for "I will fix this even better" and then not getting around to it >.>; 18:48:16 <04dracoomega> My brain is full of forgecraft 18:48:44 <03implojin> no worries, looking forward to forgecraft~ 18:48:58 <04dracoomega> ^^ 23:06:59 Stable (0.32) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32.1-2-g700d293bfd 23:35:28 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-299-gc96b193c27 (34) 23:58:10 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-299-gc96b193c27