00:55:14 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-288-g5f200facdd 04:33:51 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5249-g4a8afe7061 10:23:02 03guillaume02 {Implojin} 07* 0.33-a0-289-g10d9a8409e: Apply location effects to flank and swoop 10(6 days ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/10d9a8409ef2 10:44:45 wooo, first contribution, thanks Implojin ! 10:48:47 <03implojin> 🙂 10:48:56 03Implojin02 07* 0.33-a0-290-g14434f1371: Add adelrune to the credits 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/14434f1371bf 11:49:13 svalbard (L1 OpDe) ASSERT(valid_cursor_pos(pos.x, pos.y, region)) in 'libutil.cc' at line 407 failed. (invalid cursor position -36,8 in region 2, should be 1,8 in region 3) (D:5) 11:52:34 <12ge0ff> !crash svalbard 11:52:34 <04Cerebot> 21. svalbard, XL1 OpDe, T:0 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/svalbard/crash-svalbard-20241029-184913.txt 11:54:04 <12ge0ff> ^--- that's trunk-288, so it shouldn't be related to the recent flank and swoop change 11:54:30 <04dracoomega> No, the cursor_pos errors are an ocassionally recurring thing for a long time 11:54:49 <04dracoomega> I have no real understanding of their cause, but I think they're fairly low-level stuff 13:57:17 hi, I'm trying to figure out a bit about how seeds work, specifically which things lead to a seed creating a different game. I know version (including minor version) but can OS or arch also influence it? 13:57:42 prompted by this reddit thread https://old.reddit.com/r/dcss_seeds/comments/1gdkrt1/032_4_acq_by_d5/ 13:58:20 also is it possible for a seed to be "mostly" the same? eg same layout and branches but different items? or any partial similarities like that? 14:03:21 AFAIK, game version only (absent bugs); no to "mostly" 14:04:44 ok cool 14:05:13 so seeds are completely different across minor versions as well eg 0.32.0 & 0.32.1 14:16:33 I would expect minor versions to be the same, but major versions would differ due to new/changed game logic (minor versions should be bug fixes only) 14:18:12 and since it's seeding a PRNG, while it might be possible to find a seed that gave you some kind of "mostly" it won't be at all obvious what seed unless the PRNG is utter crap 14:29:02 also, the PRNG source is part of crawl and should behave the same on any system. and the UI uses a separate PRNG so the same seed should produce the same behavior on console/local tiles/webtiles (if you find otherwise, file a bug and provide a save file so we can figure out what's using the wrong RNG) 14:31:24 could you point me at the source for the prng functions? I'm looking at https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/docs/develop/rng_guidelines.md but I'm not familiar with the project and still learning my way around it 14:32:02 I've got a potential seed divergence from that reddit page and it's caught my interest 14:32:19 all the RNG stuff is in random.cc 14:33:19 got it, thank you 14:33:21 <03implojin> the prng itself is in pcg.cc 14:35:23 huh. that worries me, minor versions shouldn't affect generation, they should solely be bugfixes 14:36:27 (also I must note that 4 acq isn't that uncommon ime) 14:38:36 <03implojin> there aren't that many commits between .32 and .32.1, shouldn't be hard to bisect 14:39:22 <04dracoomega> I mean, there are bugfixes that affect vaults, which could easily affect generation 14:39:25 well, it might also be that the real devs might have different sensibilities 14:39:41 I'm kinda strict on what should be allowed in minor versions 14:39:43 <04dracoomega> Even if those vaults were not directly involved (ie: weight changes) 14:40:17 <03implojin> we really don't tend to backport anything for point releases that isn't a bugfix of some kind 14:40:53 <04dracoomega> Yes, but I wouldn't assume that seeds are guaranteed to be stable between any version change - minor or not 14:41:08 <04dracoomega> Like, they often might be, but it's not a thing we specifically work to preserve 14:41:45 reading the rng guidelines, anything that adds or removes a call to a random fn would cause them to diverge. I could imagine that happening in bugfixes sometimes, or yeah minor versions 14:42:13 jones: Not since generation was changed to use its own RNG state 14:43:30 (The log for 0.32.1 has two vault changes immediately visible) 14:43:32 <04dracoomega> I mean, in-game RNG calls mostly shouldn't affect level gen, but bugfixes can definitely affect level gen 14:44:06 ok, makes sense 14:44:14 <04dracoomega> It can be somewhat hard to predict, I think, whether a change to anything that can happen at generation time might sometimes involve an additional RNG call 14:45:29 so definitely confirmed that minor versions can have different seeds, though they may sometimes incidentally have the same ones 14:46:26 that reddit thread still has people claiming they're on 0.32.0 and seeing different results from the seed 14:46:34 but most likely someone is just wrong about what version they're on 14:50:16 <06pleasingfungus> seems like it should be easy enough to check 14:52:05 changed vaults would affect item gen, althoughg I'm not sure if changed vaults that aren't bugfixes should go in (but as I said earlier, I'm kinda strict about such things) 14:53:13 <04dracoomega> I mean, I think we do try to cherry-pick in only bugfixes, but 'bug' is somewhat on a spectrum 14:53:37 sure 14:54:03 "vault bugfix" is itself something of a warning, those could easily lead to more or different RNG calls 14:57:13 thank you all, this was very helpful 16:38:00 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.33-a0-290-g14434f1371 (34) 16:57:41 New branch created: pull/4106 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4106 16:57:42 03Sean Dewar02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/4106 * 0.33-a0-291-gdd14342867: Add missing space to Horror status light text 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dd1434286747 17:10:39 03Sean Dewar02 {Implojin} 07* 0.33-a0-291-g8d75f24163: Add missing space to Horror status light text 10(31 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8d75f2416308 18:41:41 <04dracoomega> So, a few of the spells I've been busily making these last weeks have little flavor blurbs in their descriptions. I know in past there were some objections to the interweaving of cosmetic and mechanical descriptions making the latter harder to parse, so this time I tried to deliberately isolate off the most 'flavor-centric' stuff in its own paragraph at the end of the description. But I was thinking about stuff that was talked about 18:41:42 last time this came up, and I believe PF saying that it might be nice if we had a 'flavor text' section of descriptions. And I kind of got to thinking... isn't this sort of what quotes are trying to be? Or rather: we already have a place at the end of a lot of spell descriptions where we put a blurb that is purely for flavor (and often completely mechanically unconnected, unlike extrapolations on the described spell itself). So I'm thinking... 18:41:42 should we just use this space for spell flavor text and not restrict it specifically to real-world quotes of things? 18:41:47 <04dracoomega> (Personally, I think a lot of the quotes we have already are inappropriate for what they're describing and often connected only in the most tangential way. Hell, Meph Cloud's quote is considerably larger than the full description of the spell and all its properties, and is in untranslated German. And I can't help but think that this sort of space could have been better-used with in-world references - not just the sort of stuff I've 18:41:48 been writing here, but MtG-style comments or observations from the world's own inhabitants) 18:45:26 <06pleasingfungus> this is the exact path that mtg flavour text took, fwiw :p 18:45:41 <06pleasingfungus> old 90s flavour text had a bunch of public domain quotes 18:46:11 <06pleasingfungus> then they realized, hey, we should use this space for our worldbuilding and characters instead 18:46:13 <03implojin> imo some of our description windows have ballooned to the point of being unwieldly, and it's great to try to prioritize mechanical info near the top because that's where players are going to stop reading, and it would probably also be fine to shift focus of some of the quotes to in-world references (i remember we have at least one reference to a d&d-based webcomic, the order of the stick, that felt really jarring to me the first time i 18:46:14 saw it) 18:46:31 <06pleasingfungus> anyway basically i’m in favor 18:48:47 <06wensley> ah, but order of the stick could take place in the crawl universe 18:49:24 <03implojin> (my objection was mostly that crawl is actively trying to not use d&d references, and that comic is entirely d&d references) 18:49:45 <06pleasingfungus> but i’ve never been a fan of dcss quotes in their current state, so idk if i fully represent all fanbase views on this 18:49:59 <06pleasingfungus> like i think there are people out there who like the current quotes? 18:50:05 <06wensley> if you're asking for someone insane to write enough bespoke lore for crawl to fill hundreds of monster and item descriptions, I'm not untempted 18:50:44 <03implojin> we have to grandfather in hit da bricks, though 18:51:09 <04dracoomega> I mean, I mostly thought they were 'dumb but ignorable' until I was thinking about things to use the space with instead, tbh. They've felt very much like a Nethack-ism, honestly (which is strange for Crawl) 18:51:51 <04dracoomega> Of course, Nethack had more literary quotes than it did actual descriptions of the item you were looking at 18:52:39 <04dracoomega> Also, I feel there are a very small number of quotes (mostly shitpost-y memes, tbh) that people seem to like and I feel most of them go unnoticed 18:53:14 <04dracoomega> neqoxec has a quote from the Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society in 1896, seemingly entirely because it mentions the word 'mutation' 18:53:35 <04dracoomega> (Okay, it talks about mutations that are not necessarily helpful, but still) 18:53:37 <06wensley> as someone to blame for adding a few hundreds of them (based on a suggestion thread of people from the tavern), even I'm not that fond of most of them 18:55:41 <04dracoomega> (I have also tried putting in a little text divider and making the flavor text a different color from the mechanical text, though it would be nice if the only color that was less prominant than the default text wasn't darkgrey, imo) 18:55:48 <04dracoomega> This is where I would possibly use italics, if I could ^^; 18:59:16 <09gammafunk> The quote for Ziggurats is pretty succinct, at least 19:00:03 <06regret-⸸nde※> I don't think it's impossible for out-of-world quotes to be appropriate- looking for ones I didn't add, the ushabti one actually referring to their use or the fire storm one referring indirectly to actual fiery destruction are both nice- but they would be much better off as a slim fraction of uses that directly speak to something about the monster / item / spell / which-whatever, rather than just completionism hunting for the 19:00:04 incidental mentions of a shared word or two. 19:04:17 <06wensley> well, basically all the things from real-world mythology are fine with real-world mythological quotes 19:04:17 <06regret-⸸nde※> (To refer back to another matter, https://scryfall.com/card/6ed/135/greed and https://scryfall.com/card/8ed/110/treasure-trove have intent.) 19:04:29 <06wensley> > JUST ASCEND > you can leave!!! > D:1 ogre > berserkitis > banished > shafted > sigmund > sourceless malevolence > 30 ?tele trove > uniques camping the only staircase > v:5 if your quick > xom > IF IT SUCKS... GO UPSTAIRS > real winners Ctrl+Q 19:07:06 <06wensley> and the quote can be attributed to "Fraxywizal, contemptuous lord of blasphemy" 19:07:06 <08nicolae> i do like many of the quotes, but also, imo, items and spells and such should have their quotes on another page/window like monsters do 19:07:07 <06wensley> or w/e 19:16:52 <04dracoomega> Monster descriptions take up way more room and sort of 'have' to have them on another page. I feel like if they're demarcated to be more separate, then having flavor on the same popup as mechanical description is fine? (Or like, putting them on another page whose existence isn't even obvious feels like a goo way for them to not be seen, if we actually think something is worth seeing. At the very least I have basically never 19:16:52 looked at monster quotes, though I have no idea how representative that is.) 19:24:21 <09gammafunk> I think it's true that very few people do read them. Something to do when idly browsing through the in-game menus. 20:38:38 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 20:38:38 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 23:13:15 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.33-a0-291-g8d75f24163 (34) 23:35:22 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-291-g8d75f24163 (34) 23:57:36 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-291-g8d75f24163