03:33:18 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5208-geafff8c3b6 08:49:07 <05sastreii> tried to revamp the tengu dudes 08:49:07 <05sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1287078160978153613/afasdasf.png?ex=66f03c72&is=66eeeaf2&hm=3156b7643d5e9515706d7526c6bb491cd3acdb0a7f361a4cd9baf267b3be876f& 08:49:08 <05sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1287078161221292184/tengu.zip?ex=66f03c72&is=66eeeaf2&hm=f66ac5f545630203b907ca7a90dab63aa35d57452814bbda9ad6d4742119b2f8& 08:54:17 <08nicolae> hell yes 08:54:25 <08nicolae> sick tenguys 08:54:47 <05sastreii> oh so that's the plural of tengu 08:59:54 <06pleasingfungus> lol 09:00:04 <06pleasingfungus> also, awesome 09:00:29 <06pleasingfungus> sojobo big upgraded 09:00:42 <06pleasingfungus> bird hair for days 09:01:49 <05sastreii> i've noticed that she was the shortest of all the tenguys (otherwise the crown didn't fit in the sprite lol) 09:02:46 <06pleasingfungus> ha 09:02:54 <06pleasingfungus> sad 09:04:01 <04dracoomega> Very snazzy looking! (But for some reason, I miss the conjurer having a hat ^^; ) 09:04:34 <04dracoomega> (I realize they are not mechanically wearing a hat, but it's not like we've ever let that stop us) 09:04:43 <06pleasingfungus> i don’t think i’d ever noticed the hat 09:04:52 <06pleasingfungus> too dark 09:05:09 <04dracoomega> Huh, really? 09:05:15 <06pleasingfungus> think so 09:06:18 <06pleasingfungus> it is charming, in a very squished way 09:07:28 <05sastreii> That wizard hat was too gimmicky imo Big hat and oversized dress, very goofy 09:08:17 <05sastreii> Also, for the same reasons of Sojobo, conj sprite was shorter than the others lol 09:10:01 <04dracoomega> You say goofy as if it's a bad thing. (I liked the nerd vibes, tbh :P) 09:10:14 <04dracoomega> Alas, maybe someone else can get a doofy hat 09:13:27 <05sastreii> Tenguys should be swift and majestic creatures (probably?) That tengu conj seems like a 12-yo wizard apprentice who just learned how to animate brooms 09:13:32 <09gammafunk> A silly hat on a crawl monster? Honestly, DracoOmega, where do you get these crazy ideas... 09:13:55 <09gammafunk> I agree that it's an improvement 09:14:18 <09gammafunk> but one should also not deny that hats are funny 09:14:36 <09gammafunk> but if the artist prefers no hat on that particular tengu, I say there are hat opportunities elsewhere 09:14:49 <06pleasingfungus> hopportunities 09:14:58 <09gammafunk> ??best hat 09:15:00 <04Cerebot> hat of the high council[1/1]: the +2 hat of the High Council {Archmagi, Wiz- Stlth-}. Think of it as a hat of wild magic - more spell power but less spell success. Removed in 0.20 for some reason. This is the worst hat. 09:15:06 <09gammafunk> good roll 09:15:49 <05sastreii> I like hats! But for 32x32 reasons i’ve decided non to use them this time 09:18:20 <04dracoomega> I mean, I am not fighting to put a hat back on, per se. (Though I do wonder if a little something is lost by the upper silhouette of the two tengu that constantly appear together being essentially identical now). To be clear: the tiles are obviously a large improvement overall, don't get me wrong! 09:19:18 <09gammafunk> yeah, that's a good point, although I feel their colors are different enough that it won't be a problem distinguishing them in practice 09:19:30 <09gammafunk> it helps that their feathers are different colors on top of their armour 09:21:16 <09gammafunk> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1287086252407132273/image.png?ex=66f043fb&is=66eef27b&hm=15b49aa7025b334b07565c391a859bb2ea1e16c37697f65a359ea6dabd0ca712& 09:21:18 <06pleasingfungus> the lightning bolts seem like a larger silhouette difference than the hat 09:21:21 <06pleasingfungus> tbh 09:21:39 <09gammafunk> *??tengu conjurer 09:21:39 <04Cerebot> tengu conjurer (Q) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 28-37 | AC/EV: 2/17 | Dam: 10, 5, 5 | weapons, items, doors, spellcaster, see invisible, fly | Res: will(20) | Corpse | XP: 345 | Sp: battlesphere, b.lightning (3d14), force lance (3d11) [emergency] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 09:21:55 <09gammafunk> right they're the ones with battlesphere 09:22:02 <09gammafunk> *??tengu reaver 09:22:02 <04Cerebot> tengu reaver (Q) | Spd: 10 | HD: 17 | HP: 76-100 | AC/EV: 8/16 | Dam: 27, 11, 11 | weapons, items, doors, fighter, evil, spellcaster, see invisible, fly | Res: will(60) | Corpse | XP: 1417 | Sp: b.venom (3d21), b.fire (3d26), b.cold (3d26), b.corrosive (3d24), b.lightning (3d22), b.draining (3d24), repel missiles | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 09:22:08 <09gammafunk> I feel reavers did have battlesphere at one point, but memory hazy 09:22:19 <09gammafunk> they got reworked to be bolt machines 09:22:34 <09gammafunk> *0.18?tengu reaver 09:22:43 <09gammafunk> *0.19?tengu reaver 09:22:44 <04Cerebot> tengu reaver (Q) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 17 | HP: 77-96 | AC/EV: 8/16 | Dam: 27, 11, 11 | weapons, items, doors, fighter, spellcaster, see invisible, fly | Res: magic(60) | XP: 2037 | Sp: b.magma (3d26), fireball (3d27), battlesphere / b.venom (3d21), poisonous cloud (3d11), b.corrosive (3d21), battlesphere / freezing cloud (2d27), b.lightning (3d22), battlesphere | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 09:22:48 <09gammafunk> right, thought so 09:50:16 <06pleasingfungus> !browse tengu reaver 09:50:16 <04Cerebot> https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html#tengu_reaver 09:55:40 <06pleasingfungus> rip, no history 09:58:53 <04dracoomega> Still want to figure out a better word for 'conjured' monsters (ie: 'ancillary thing which shouldn't be selected as a valid target for many effects that want to pick a 'real' monster'). At one point I was leaning towards 'ephemeral' but some of them are kind of long-lasting (ie: Battlesphere) so it doesn't feel great. Even if ballisto spores are clearly also not 'conjured' 09:59:05 <04dracoomega> And I can't use 'projectile' 10:13:07 <04dracoomega> ...huh, IMB can't hit conjured monsters at all (hostile or friendly). I guess this maybe was intended so that you could safely use it around your own prisms, but like... does anyone know or expect this? I sure didn't. 10:16:52 <05sastreii> “Generated”? It’s the most generic one that comes to my mind 10:17:24 <04dracoomega> Problem is that it has to not include most summons and ally-style forgecraft creations either 10:18:16 <04dracoomega> It's hard to get something that like... doesn't include lightning spires or dancing weapons, but does include boulders and battlespheres 10:19:21 <06pleasingfungus> if we hadn’t already used the term ‘derived monster’, i’d be tempted by that 10:19:30 <06pleasingfungus> ephemeral seems ok even w bspheres 10:21:25 <04dracoomega> I personally like something that sort of stresses the 'ancillary' part. "Isn't a full actual monster in many ways" is the more important part, and the duration is sort of 'conincidence'. But there may be no good word like that 10:29:41 <04dracoomega> Adjunct? Accessory? Supplemental?? Subordinate? (But that might sound like the normal kind of 'dependent summon') 10:30:57 <09gammafunk> %git 5c913e88656986f9c9ed37a028372817ae09257b 10:30:58 <04Cerebot> gammafunk {|amethyst} * 0.14-a0-2510-g5c913e8865: Fix seek/wandering behaviour of spectral weapons and battlespheres. (11 years ago, 6 files, 62+ 43-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5c913e886569 10:31:40 <09gammafunk> way back when trying to clean up the unique behaviour of this set of player and monster created things, I deemed them "avatar" 10:31:57 <09gammafunk> but that's more because of how they directly follow the player's will in terms of targeting 10:32:52 <09gammafunk> that was probably inspired by the monster spell on that one ds monster: grand avatar 10:33:06 <04dracoomega> Battlespheres and spectral weapons are still called that in code 10:33:10 <09gammafunk> yeah 10:33:13 <04dracoomega> (But are a sub-category of 'conjured') 10:33:35 <04dracoomega> To be honest, I always found 'avatar' confusing, as it always reads more as 'incarnation of some larger divinity' or something 10:33:39 <04dracoomega> To me, at least 10:33:41 <09gammafunk> that code was not surprisingly a nightmare to clean up and unify, to the extent that it got unified 10:33:51 <09gammafunk> right, it's not a great candidate for what you're looking for, really 10:34:08 <09gammafunk> it implies something that's more directly controlled, I think 10:34:36 <04dracoomega> I might kind of like 'adjunct' more, the more I think about it 10:34:37 <09gammafunk> and yeah I guess it has a meaning that's more associated with divinity 10:34:40 <04dracoomega> Not sure how other people feel about that 10:36:08 <09gammafunk> I think adjunct is not usually applied to things that act on their own accord, but I don't think it causes any confusion 10:37:05 <04dracoomega> Well, mostly these don't act of their own accord is the thing. Well, to the extent that one considers a boulder rolling or a ball lightning exploding to be 'acting' 10:38:35 <09gammafunk> some helpful synonyms for adjunct suggested by a thesaurus: auxiliary, worker, underling, laborer, scullion, coadjutor, adjutant, right hand, sidekick, aid-de-camp, legman, girl Friday 10:38:47 <04dracoomega> (I'm also planning to do some refactoring of 'spell ignores specific allies' code so that we can get rid of some weirdness about how, for instance, Shatter won't damage conjured monsters - as far as I can tell, entirely as a bandaid to stop giving prompts to the player about attacking their own iood) 10:39:03 <04dracoomega> girl Friday?? 10:39:14 <09gammafunk> it's a good day for the girls to go out, I guess 10:39:19 <09gammafunk> https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/adjunct 10:39:23 <04dracoomega> mons_is_girl_friday() 10:39:43 <04dracoomega> In case we miss the days of linley int switches and want to be similarly unreadable 10:40:31 <09gammafunk> as long as we also get mons_is_froge_wednesday() 11:26:23 <06pleasingfungus> ancillary sounds kind of good, tbh 11:31:21 <04dracoomega> Do you prefer that to 'adjunct'? 11:35:25 <06pleasingfungus> ancillary sounds more miltiaristic, adjunct sounds more academic 11:35:44 <06pleasingfungus> i think i do prefer the former, but weakly 11:44:26 <04dracoomega> I mean, I guess renaming a flag/method like this is one of the easiest changes to make later on anyway, if it comes to it 11:44:36 <04dracoomega> Compared to various other sorts of disentangling I am attempting to do 11:44:59 <04dracoomega> Like make more consistently delineated classes of behavior 11:46:01 <04dracoomega> (For instance, currently a lightning spire will itself get annoyed if you hit it and disapper, but Ely doesn't actually mind if you do this. But a spellforged servitor won't get annoyed if you hit it, but Ely will penance you anyway >.>) 11:52:26 <06pleasingfungus> lol 12:22:26 <09hellmonk> the servitor has a soul but is forgiving, whereas the spire is soulless but wrathful 12:22:38 <09hellmonk> New political compass just dropped 12:23:42 <04dracoomega> Haha 12:31:31 <06pleasingfungus> w o w 15:24:06 <08nicolae> i've also heard "man Friday", i wonder why thesaurus went for "girl Friday" first 15:24:30 <08nicolae> i suggest, for battlespheres et al, that they be called "lil buddies" 15:25:10 because "girl Friday" goes back rather farther, although it's fairly sexist 15:25:32 <08nicolae> but it's from robinson crusoe, where it is based on his sidekick, who is a man, named friday 15:26:14 it is, but "girl Friday" was a fairly common Americanism in the early-to-mid 20th century 15:27:48 <08nicolae> wikipedia seems to be pointing to "my man Friday" as earlier, and from the novel itself 15:33:37 <09hellmonk> hot girl Friday 16:50:35 <04dracoomega> C++ * @param dur The duration for which the monster should last. * Not in aut or turns; nonlinear. Sorry! Slowly reducing the number of apologies in the codebase 16:51:53 <04dracoomega> (It's in aut now) 18:28:48 <06pleasingfungus> i wonder how many of those are mine 18:28:50 <06pleasingfungus> probably quite a lot 18:29:15 <06pleasingfungus> i went on a documentation kick years ago, multiplying the sorry count dramatically… 18:53:07 <09gammafunk> > beam.cc: // Assumes MAX_PETRIFY_BOUNCES = 2. Sorry! > god-abil.cc: // Unique rune guardians can't be bribed, sorry! > item-prop.cc:// Sorry about this. > makeitem.cc: // Sorry. Trying to get a high enough weight of talismans early > mon-cast.cc: * Not in aut or turns; nonlinear. Sorry! > mon-death.cc: // No undead 0-headed hydras, sorry. > mon-death.cc: // This is a hostile effect, and 18:53:07 monsters are dirty cheaters. Sorry! > mon-util.cc: return MTHRT_TRIVIAL; // ignores 'real', sorry... > monster.cc: // years ago but never fixed the internal math. Sorry! > monster.cc: // Sorry, if you made 4294901759 monsters over the course of your > mutation.cc: // should really keep allowing dual wielding. I'm so sorry about this. > mutation.cc: // I'm very sorry. > potion.cc: // ...sorry about this. > 18:53:08 skills.cc: // Lossy, sorry. > spl-goditem.cc: // ENCH_PETRIFIED. So... let's not do that. (Hacky, sorry!) all sorry comments in our cc and header files currently 19:18:11 <06pleasingfungus> quite a lot of those are mine, yep 20:07:22 03nicolae02 07* 0.33-a0-124-g2999c8d83f: Add a quote for the hand cannon. 10(62 seconds ago, 1 file, 13+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2999c8d83f0a 20:12:25 <04dracoomega> I wonder just how much arguing back and forth I've done with myself about what exactly Oka should think of Forgecraft. Like, currently hoarfrost cannonade is banned (since you can give them orders) and hellfire mortar is allowed (since you cannot - and because it's essentially a slow projectile that only goes where you first aimed it, like an iood that shoots at random things along the way). Them both being in the same school might 20:12:25 make this more confusing, and I've seen some suggestions that hellfire mortar also ought to be banned. And perhaps so, but then that just leaves me thinking about where the boundary lies for other things. Battlesphere has never been banned, and Rending Blade is probably closer to that than any other spell. But there's a sawblade concept that is kind of somewhere like 'make a wall and cast frozen ramparts on it' (which Oka is fine with), but also kind of 20:12:26 like 'summon stationary cactus giant (sorta)' which Oka isn't. (And even if these spells aren't ready yet, it weighs on how I structure or name some of the things I'm doing now.) 20:17:30 <04dracoomega> I found myself thinking that a unifying line between 'Oka is okay with this' and other desired behaviors of 'conjured' monsters is that they're effectively 'weapons' more than they are allies. I thought about 'ordinance'; a ball lightning or a battlesphere or even a boulder could be considered such. Except for the part where dancing weapons are the most literally 'weapons' you can get out of a monster and aren't part of this 20:17:30 category >.> 20:18:51 <04dracoomega> "Oka is fine with you using created monsters that are just weapons, except for the one that is literally made from a weapon that you can wield in your own two hands." 20:34:04 <08nicolae> maybe it's time to revisit what specifically oka should forbid 20:34:38 <08nicolae> like, independently-intelligent beings makes sense to forbid, in a single combat honor etc type of sense 20:35:08 <08nicolae> but what's the difference between a dancing weapon and a weapon you have in your hands? nothing, says i 20:38:07 <08nicolae> now that there's more variety among the flavors of summons and assistants and crafted forgeries 20:41:36 <04dracoomega> Well, the thing is, I feel like the 'no allies' thing is intended mechanics-first and the flavor is just a convenient justification for that. While it would certainly be possible to draw a different set of restrictions along flavor lines, I feel that is somewhat against the original point, is it not? 20:41:45 <04dracoomega> (But of course, there's this fuzzy space even mechanics-first) 20:42:05 <08nicolae> yeah, exactly, even mechanics first, what differentiates an OOD or a battlesphere from a charmed monster or a summon 20:42:59 <08nicolae> i suppose you could just go with an old-testament-type level of strictness and just forbid All Little Guys, but banning foxfires and OODs seems... rough 21:01:39 <04dracoomega> Anyway, I am going to bed now, but if anyone feels like chiming in anything else, please be my guest ^^; 21:11:33 <09gammafunk> is wiglaf supposed to be an oka worshiper? 21:11:36 <09gammafunk> *??wiglaf 21:11:37 <04Cerebot> Wiglaf (g) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 140-185 | AC/EV: 14/3 | Dam: 26 | weapons, items, doors, fighter, spellcaster | Res: will(100) | Corpse | XP: 1913 | Sp: might, hellfire mortar | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 22:35:15 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-124-g2999c8d83f (34) 22:56:27 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-124-g2999c8d83f 23:13:20 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.33-a0-124-g2999c8d83f (34) 23:49:32 03regret-index02 07* 0.33-a0-125-g89085595bf: Ever-recurring vault review 10(2 days ago, 11 files, 155+ 126-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/89085595bfd7 23:49:32 03regret-index02 07* 0.33-a0-126-gf64d002df9: New decorations: weird machinery 10(4 hours ago, 8 files, 107+ 43-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f64d002df9b7 23:49:32 03regret-index02 07* 0.33-a0-127-g9b1a4445c4: New tengu tiles (Sastreii) 10(4 hours ago, 7 files, 11+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9b1a4445c4fc 23:49:32 03regret-index02 07* 0.33-a0-128-g8e166ad1d2: New tileset for granite statues in Depths, Zot 10(21 minutes ago, 24 files, 99+ 15-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8e166ad1d299 23:49:32 03regret-index02 07* 0.33-a0-129-gb0d9199257: More tweaks to more recent monsters 10(42 seconds ago, 8 files, 10+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b0d9199257fa 23:54:38 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-124-g2999c8d83f