04:35:54 <07zureal> For the tournament home page (https://crawl.develz.org/tournament/0.32/) the "HOME" link doesn't actually go anywhere (https://crawl.develz.org/tournament/0.32/overview.html) or the page just doesn't exist yet. 04:51:58 <09gammafunk> Yes that would go to the current standings if tournament were live or out of early test mode, which it isn't. That page will get populated in next day or two, so that being missing is intentional. 05:07:50 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.33-a0-27-gdf10614 (34) 05:42:25 mg7810 (L8 DsFi) ASSERT(m.alive()) in 'mon-transit.cc' at line 288 failed. (D:6) 05:43:09 mg7810 (L8 DsFi) ASSERT(m.alive()) in 'mon-transit.cc' at line 288 failed. (D:6) 07:50:53 P0WERM0DE (L10 CoCK) ERROR: range check error (27000 / 2000) (D:8) 08:22:28 Hello. Im here now. 08:22:40 <06pleasingfungus> hello! 08:22:58 Should I work on any tiles? 08:23:16 That aren't already stated in the Art Requests? 08:32:00 <02Monkooky> what happened with cigotuvi's fleshworks 08:32:21 <02Monkooky> I vaguely remember someone takin a stab at updating the walls but don't recall that getting finished 08:37:09 <02Monkooky> ok nvm those tiles are new 08:41:47 <02Monkooky> LemurRobot, if you're at a loss for things to work on, new decor is reasonably likely to see use eventually- stuff like https://discord.com/channels/205277826788622337/205316046230388737/1276736665012011123 08:44:53 <06mumra> but, things in Art Requests are more likely to be immediately included in the game because a lot of them are new features that still have placeholder art (e.g. coglins are a prime example, brand new species that should look really distinctive but the placeholder art is very generic) 08:46:46 Imma work on campfire sprites 09:04:27 <08nicolae> q: is there a function for vault-related lua that tells you how many of a given glyph are currently in the map, taking into account SUBSTs and SHUFFLEs and the like that have already happened 09:15:26 <09gammafunk> I don't believe there's a dlua function to read map glyphs at all 09:16:48 <09gammafunk> I would tend to suggest that, if you do need to know how many of a glyph there are exactly, you should ensure that a precise number places. Possibly doing your own randomization of count and then possibly programatically assembling the subst/nsubst 09:17:56 <09gammafunk> and maybe you can do an intermediate substitution, possibly in two parts, e.g. transforming one part but leaving another untransformed, and then transforming any remaining of the intermediate to another glyph 09:32:24 <08nicolae> bah! surely some kind of layout uses such a feature... 09:33:30 <09gammafunk> well, it would help if you described what you actually wanted to do with this supposed functionality! 09:34:21 <09gammafunk> it's always useful to formulate that as clearly as possible and think whether it could be done in a more straightforward way. Sometimes you do need new functionality but often it just takes reformulation 09:41:46 <08nicolae> MY GRAND PLANS ARE FAR BEYOND THE LIKES OF YOU mostly i keep thinking of ways to make series of connected rooms in such a way as to guarantee connectivity while also providing as much variety as possible, and the limitations of the NSUBST are stymieing-- hold on let me look up something, oh "stymieing" is acceptable, weird -- anyway NSUBST doesn't do what i want and i am thinking of alternatives 09:42:29 <08nicolae> oh, hm, i may have had an insight :react_spleculation: 09:48:38 <09gammafunk> such is the power of reformulation, nicolae, now you have seen the light... 09:55:00 <08nicolae> oh i've seen the light but it's the kind of weird light you get in a lovecraft type story 10:04:41 "cosmic horror" :-) 10:19:21 <08nicolae> it appears my insight was not as insightful as i thought... the light lied to me, and by extension, gammafunk has also lied to me 10:20:56 <04dracoomega> This crash is due to a Blorkula copy made with Phantom Mirror trying to split into bats from damage, incidentally. Surprisingly a little unsure how to fix. (The issue, as far as I can tell, is that it removes all status effects from Blorkula before 'saving' a copy of them, but when that Blorkula is a summon, that involves removing their abjuration timer, which causes them to cease to be right before the game tries to save them.) Not 10:20:56 immediately sure the best solution for this. Could make mirror copies just not split into bats, but that feels dissatisfying. 10:45:11 <04dracoomega> Alas, it seems enough of a pain / refactoring to do that it's probably not worth it for exactly the situation of finding a phantom mirror before Blorkula and choosing to use it on him and having him die before it expires 10:45:24 <04dracoomega> Even i it makes me slightly sad 11:28:17 New branch created: pull/3997 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3997 11:28:18 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3997 * 0.33-a0-28-gf5df6afc3d: Fix crash on the death of summoned Blorkula the Orcula 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f5df6afc3d55 11:31:46 Sorry draco I missed those messages you sent earlier. Feel free to use your fix for it if you prefer :) 11:32:33 Incidentally I tried to see if it was possible to get a rakshasa to copy it, to see what happened then, and it seems rakshasas just can't copy uniques 11:32:36 news to me 11:38:21 <04dracoomega> I wonder if there were concerns that it would cause issues with bookkeeping? (It still might, even) 11:38:38 <04dracoomega> Since the player UI isn't supposed to be able to tell them apart from the real ones 11:51:01 <06mumra> i mean, this is how V layout works essentially 12:04:52 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-28-gfefbaf9652: Fix a possible crash with Xom fake shatter 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fefbaf96527d 12:04:52 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-29-g0e1e677ba4: Prevent a crash with a phantom mirrored Blorkula being killed 10(69 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0e1e677ba495 12:04:52 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-30-g3f04b6fbeb: Adjust orc monster description 10(31 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3f04b6fbebaa 12:04:52 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-31-gad26841d26: Add a placeholder description for armataur monsters 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ad26841d266b 12:04:52 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-32-g01a4114b50: Fix an extraneous space in Dith max invo title in webtiles sidebar 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/01a4114b50e8 12:04:55 03DracoOmega02 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-29-gf0fdb5777d: Fix a possible crash with Xom fake shatter 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f0fdb5777d9e 12:04:55 03DracoOmega02 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-30-g667e4017b6: Prevent a crash with a phantom mirrored Blorkula being killed 10(69 minutes ago, 1 file, 7+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/667e4017b6d4 12:04:55 03DracoOmega02 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-31-gf968dfee0c: Adjust orc monster description 10(31 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f968dfee0c30 12:04:55 03DracoOmega02 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-32-g7f7fa0046d: Add a placeholder description for armataur monsters 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7f7fa0046d1d 12:04:55 03DracoOmega02 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-33-g34f44d4ad0: Fix an extraneous space in Dith max invo title in webtiles sidebar 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/34f44d4ad088 12:10:08 Btw random other thing - there appears to be an issue with the spacing on the % screen 12:10:22 My current char says "NormalPerson7 the Changeling(Barachi Shapeshifter)" 12:15:48 <04dracoomega> Oh, a problem probably not caused by anything I recently did? ^^; 12:16:01 <04dracoomega> Or is it >.> 12:18:11 <04dracoomega> Hmm... okay, it was spaced differently in 0.31, so maybe I broke this with the original Dith change 12:18:12 <04dracoomega> Argh 12:23:09 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-33-ga5f74d5c56: Fix another spacing issue with player titles on % screen (NormalPerson7) 10(59 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a5f74d5c562d 12:23:10 03DracoOmega02 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-34-g6d9da6e958: Fix another spacing issue with player titles on % screen (NormalPerson7) 10(60 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6d9da6e95808 13:20:41 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 13:20:41 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 15:39:06 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.33-a0-33-ga5f74d5c56 (34) 17:00:55 03Alejandro Ramirez02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3996 * 0.33-a0-38-ge99716ed05: Fixing HP draw crash caused by drained max HP being less than the HP the player had prior to transforming into a dungeon denizen 10(21 seconds ago, 2 files, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e99716ed0551 17:29:52 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-34-g8f600990a4: Fix draconians not getting breath power boost in dragon form (Undo) 10(87 seconds ago, 1 file, 9+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8f600990a4b2 17:29:53 03DracoOmega02 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-35-g8da6c63300: Fix draconians not getting breath power boost in dragon form (Undo) 10(88 seconds ago, 1 file, 9+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8da6c633004a 17:57:46 03Isaac Clancy02 {Wizard Ike} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3888 * 0.32-a0-2016-g2880e8dccf: Don't waste a turn when summoning with no space 10(9 weeks ago, 9 files, 889+ 312-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2880e8dccf64 18:34:13 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-35-g516f9d4634: Fix enhanced breath damage not displaying for red draconians (Undo) 10(61 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/516f9d463415 18:34:14 03DracoOmega02 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-36-g01caadce97: Fix enhanced breath damage not displaying for red draconians (Undo) 10(62 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/01caadce978e 19:01:03 03Isaac Clancy02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3888 * 0.33-a0-36-gb3673be117: Don't waste a turn when summoning with no space 10(9 weeks ago, 9 files, 888+ 312-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b3673be11722 19:39:59 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 19:39:59 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 20:08:52 <08nicolae> @regret-⸸nde※ q: i'm using your rangers monster set for a vault, and it seems like the 1 glyph just returns a random monster instead of the monsters specified in the first e.mons statement in the theme setup function (centaur warrior / yaktaur / polterguardian). did i mess up something here. 20:11:45 <06regret-⸸nde※> What's the function call you're using? The proper syntax for a regular vaults_room vault should just be : index_vaults_room_themes(_G, "rangers", false). 20:16:05 <08nicolae> well it's hard so it's set to true. although... 20:16:55 <08nicolae> nah, that wasn't it, still does it on false 20:25:44 <08nicolae> anyway this can be a problem for Tomorrow Nicolae 20:30:45 <06regret-⸸nde※> Looks like the rangers set never actually scales up any monsters in the first slot, just down, so when it's set to be hard (and thus scale more) it's told of three different monsters all with weight 0 or less, and then just decides to use random monsters. 20:33:07 <08nicolae> i just realized that it only happens to the rangers set but i hadn't quite ascertained why yet 20:33:52 <06regret-⸸nde※> Probably I'd replace that set's first monster definition with something like... e.mons('centaur warrior w:' .. 8 - d * 2 .. ' / ' .. 'yaktaur w:' .. 8 - d .. ' / ' .. 'polterguardian w:' .. d * 2 ) which would fix it. 20:36:01 <08nicolae> yeah, i just tried it and that seems to have fixed it 20:36:06 <08nicolae> danke! 21:00:09 03Alejandro Ramirez02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3996 * 0.33-a0-39-gf086207d60: Fix infinite recursion between setting dungeon denizen (DD) spells and getting the DD monster 10(17 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f086207d6031 21:48:01 <07acrobat> @regret-⸸nde※ It seems like currnet chaos brand has a bug. Low-probability effects are happening too often. (or did I miss big change?) I attack iron golem with my +9 evening star(chaos) 20 times and below is what happened. slow/-/haste/weak/might weak/petrify/confuse/'nothing appers happen'/fragile -/might/'nothing appers happen'/weak/slow might/haste/-/fragile/'nothing appers happen' probably this is a bug related to iron 21:48:01 golem's perfect resistance? 21:50:21 <04dracoomega> I am not sure that is really a bug, per se. I'm fairly sure chaos always would skip effects that cannot affect the target in quesetion 21:50:40 <07acrobat> I think they must not 21:50:47 <04dracoomega> (There is, in fact, a fair bit of code for this purpose. It's not new.) 21:50:54 <07acrobat> huh 21:51:27 <04dracoomega> Okay, some of it used to be broken, so I'm not sure how much of it was 'new', though it definitely worked for some things and that was clearly the intent 21:57:12 <07acrobat> I tested in 0.24 and it looks like that at least the damaging brands(the largest percentage effects) are not skipped. 21:58:25 <04dracoomega> Reviewing the history of the relevant code, it looks like venom, holy wrath, antimagic, vampirism, and draining would be skipped on immune monsters since about 8 years, and flaming/freezing would be skipped on fiery/icy monsters (which wasn't actually true immunity, as it turns out, though still covered a bunch of enemies). Those checks were changed to looking at actual resistance levels like 9 months ago. 21:58:36 <07acrobat> oooh 21:59:33 <04dracoomega> (I didn't review all of the status effect ones in detail, but I know that at least a lot of them were skipped on immune monsters for a long time) 21:59:38 <07acrobat> but in 0.24, low-probability effects occur at a much lower frequency against iron golem 21:59:57 <07acrobat> (and this feels right to me) 22:01:07 <04dracoomega> (I mean, in 0.24 most people thought chaos weapons weren't especially good to use, and mostly the response to the changes in them have been positive, as far as I've seen) 22:01:20 <04dracoomega> Iron golems are kind of an extreme case, I guess 22:01:29 <04dracoomega> Since they're immune to a huge amount of things 22:02:25 <04dracoomega> But it still looks like even back then, the only common brands they could roll would be fire/cold/elec and not any of the other ones. 22:02:46 <04dracoomega> (This is fairly significant, I realize) 22:03:11 <04dracoomega> But chaos has a lot of effects, and many enemies are immune to at least some set of these (sometimes a fairly large set) 22:03:23 <04dracoomega> Possibly like half the things can't even affect most undead, for instance? 22:03:42 <04dracoomega> So removing all those checks does also seem like a substancial nerf against lots of things in the game 22:04:54 <07acrobat> I don't know. Low-probability effects happening more mean more chance of haste, might, berserk etc 22:05:05 <07acrobat> I'm not sure it is nerf or buff 22:05:30 <07acrobat> I don't really have many in-game experience 22:06:45 Stable (0.32) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-b1-36-g01caadce97 22:07:00 <06regret-⸸nde※> %git 6bbbebb 22:07:01 <04Cerebot> ebering * 0.28-a0-339-g6bbbebb4f9: feat: buff iron golems (amcnicky) (3 years ago, 2 files, 7+ 8-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6bbbebb4f916 22:07:30 <06regret-⸸nde※> Still had 15 AC, huh. 22:08:34 <04dracoomega> I mean, I don't think anyone was very concerned about iron golems back then, regardless, but they were still immune to a lot of things 22:09:06 <07acrobat> hell sentinel is also immune to so many things 22:09:17 <07acrobat> maybe war gargoyl too? 22:09:28 <06regret-⸸nde※> ...Actually, using an iron golem as an example is completely useless data- before 0.31, all low-frequency debuffs had to check the willpower of the target versus the damage they did, and iron golems are will invulnerable still back in 0.24. 22:09:41 <07acrobat> ooooh 22:09:43 <04dracoomega> Oh, right, yeah that part. Which nobody even realized 22:09:45 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Haste, might, and berserk didn't check willpower as it was being done.) 22:10:23 <04dracoomega> (LearnDB had said chaos bypassed Will for years and years, and it didn't. In fact, it usually checked will with incredibly low power, in practice) 22:10:30 <04dracoomega> I forgot about that 22:10:31 <06regret-⸸nde※> Outside of the [surprisingly low will] entry, I am very doubtful old chaos actually succeeded in doing any of its debuffs to most monsters throughout the game, between both AC and Willpower checks. 22:10:39 <04dracoomega> Even though I think I was the one who dug it up? 22:10:58 <07acrobat> using choas dagger to kill pan lord was just rumor then? 22:11:19 <07acrobat> I saw many people said that 22:12:05 <07acrobat> confuse, para, petrify... 22:12:13 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I think it was. Like, people being worried about their eldritch tentacle paralyzing them also 22:12:41 <04dracoomega> The chance was so low against a lategame character as to be nonexistant 22:12:54 <07acrobat> in old version(0.2x), my all rune game char died to that para. I'm 100% sure 22:12:56 <04dracoomega> (You noticed it when Yuif hit you earlygame, of course, because you have no Will yet) 22:13:08 <06regret-⸸nde※> Eldritch tentacles at least hit for 40. 22:13:16 <04dracoomega> It may not be literally 0, but extremely low. 22:13:27 <04dracoomega> You may have just gotten fantastically unlucky, I am afraid 22:13:49 <07acrobat> I died from almost full hp 22:14:03 <04dracoomega> (They also can hit high enough to actually have power behind the will check, which things like quick blades never could) 22:14:37 <04dracoomega> Tempted to pull up old code again to calculate 22:14:49 <06regret-⸸nde※> Pan lords, unlike iron golems (or hell sentinels, or so on and so forth) have recieved systematic buffs across multiple versions, and the power of chaos-stabbing may be of memories from before they consistently had much for willpower or ac. They're far too random to be able to consistently assess on that front relative to other highly-immune monsters (and as long as one is fine with a hasted orb of fire, the chances are far 22:14:50 higher to confuse and then haste that orb of fire). 22:14:51 <07acrobat> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1278221237474033695/1.PNG?ex=66d003cb&is=66ceb24b&hm=f06430ab3fdfef04bcfdea222f46816c30cf9c944826ba8f5468959273559c8b& 22:14:54 <07acrobat> 🤔 22:14:58 <07acrobat> I'm in 0.24 22:15:07 <07acrobat> and get petrify 22:15:10 <07acrobat> vs cerebov 22:15:23 <04dracoomega> Hmmm... did it change again in the meantime? It was definitely an issue prior to the recent chaos rework 22:15:23 <07acrobat> ??? 22:15:29 <04dracoomega> Now I am really going back to check things 22:15:53 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Chaos itself has changed over the many versions also, is the thing.) 22:16:21 <06regret-⸸nde※> ...Oh. 22:16:26 <06regret-⸸nde※> Prior to 0.25, chaos could inflict random miscast effects instead of the might and agility effects. 22:16:39 <04dracoomega> Like, I distinctly recall that in 0.31, chaos clouds only worked due to a very weird coincidence with them counting as a 'beam cast by the victim itself', which caused it to bypass will checks 22:16:45 <04dracoomega> And that chaos melee did not do this 22:16:47 <06regret-⸸nde※> I suspect miscast effects didn't check willpower like the actual direct hex calls did. 22:16:53 <04dracoomega> Oh, maybe?? 22:16:56 <04dracoomega> Probably not 22:17:24 <04dracoomega> So I guess for a period of time, some debuffs ignored will due to another coincidence, which was unrelatedly removed 22:17:47 <07acrobat> so chaotic 22:17:49 <07acrobat> really 22:18:29 <07acrobat> btw 22:18:31 <07acrobat> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1278222160946659470/1724803663.png?ex=66d004a7&is=66ceb327&hm=8ff7010163a2ab0e12b8e86c5f45c24f8f8cadff787f262d3dbe62d306e00072& 22:18:45 <07acrobat> do you guys know what happen in this? 22:18:46 <06regret-⸸nde※> I suspect that's foul flame. 22:18:49 <07acrobat> oh 22:18:51 <07acrobat> thanks 22:24:42 <04dracoomega> But yes, looking at code from the 0.28 era here, it looks like if an eldritch tentacle rolled max damage on its attack, and then rolled an actual hex effect on it, it would apply it to you with power mildly greater than Sigmund (I think) 22:25:09 <04dracoomega> Less than a normal vampire's hex power, at least, I'm fairly sure 22:25:24 <06regret-⸸nde※> (If it's as far back as 0.24, however, an eldritch tentacle can have just done any number of things eventually through miscasts.) 22:26:00 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Petrify was in earth effects, paralysis was in charms and hexes effects, sleep was in hexes effects....) 22:26:39 <07acrobat> wow earth miscast effect was so scary 👀 22:32:20 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Chaos is much stronger in 0.31-onwards than the span between 0.25 and 0.30, it's true, and in particular it's exceptionally good in extended and Zot as more monsters become more immune and more weak to various effects it'll pick out more of the latter from. It's also mostly only granted through Xom, who doesn't exactly reliably provide escapes to make up for the hundreds and hundreds of monsters one might melee and thus 22:32:20 eventually haste / might / frenzy. It being competitive with other top ends inherently still costs some consumables over the course of a game unless one already is strong enough to be doing just as well with another weapon, and it being in that position is fine as a very rare brand in non-Xom games.) 22:34:34 <04dracoomega> Like, people do feel like chaos can be pretty strong now, but chaos also inherantly sometimes makes things worse for you. And even if the net average is much more slanted in the player's favor, the fact that it can haste and might what you're attacking is already enough to make some people wary of using it. The upsides need to be fairly compelling to willingly accept that risk, I think? 22:34:34 <07acrobat> > It's also mostly only granted through Xom but brand scroll aslo give me chaos! 22:34:49 <07acrobat> (which I don't like) 22:35:19 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-35-g516f9d4634 (34) 22:39:44 <04dracoomega> Don't like in the sense of 'Don't want to get chaos when rebranding' or don't like in the sense of 'Think it's too strong now to be able to get it this way'? (I do think it's rarer than other brands from the scroll?) 22:40:37 <04dracoomega> Oh, it seems it's more common from that than I thought (though still only ~6.6% chance) 22:52:49 <07acrobat> I mean I think chaos isn't really good brand especially early on. (I have no experience with chaos brand in 0.32 yet, so I could be completely wrong though.) might, haste or berserk can easily kill you in some case. It's also quite inconvenient to use because you have to keep an eye on what's going on every turn you press tab even in easy fight. (fortunately, there's no more inv but still.) and if you are unlucky, only one brand scroll 22:52:49 generated in a game for a very long time. I feel big anxiety when using it for my primary weapon in such game. and if the result is chaos it's very unpleasant. I think chaos was much better when it was 'mostly' limited to xom. 22:57:52 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-35-g516f9d4634 23:13:44 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.33-a0-35-g516f9d4634 (34) 23:28:46 <06regret-⸸nde※> (This repeated mentioning of berserk is weird.) 23:28:56 <06regret-⸸nde※> (It's frenzy these days.) 23:35:28 <06regret-⸸nde※> Chaos brand is a risky brand very early on, yes, but most chaos knights can swap off of chaos brand for other quick weapon upgrades earlier on, and then swap back to it later with the Xom bazaar's offerings if they so choose. Non-chaos knights can roll chaos on brand weapon, but five of the gods already hate various non-chaos rolls one can get on their weapon, and there's more brand weapon than there used to be due to the 23:35:29 Hall of Blades addition. 23:43:29 <07acrobat> yeh getting stuck in chaos brand is not something that happens frequently. I think I feel it bigger because I play streak a lot. 23:45:25 <06regret-⸸nde※> (I think there's an awkward interweaving of inquiries here, really. Chaos is now stronger than before, this is undeniable and was a deliberate goal of its changes. Should chaos be strong? If it's always going to innately have risks, I say it's much better to have a strong risky brand that at least is an option versus a weak risky brand that mostly serves as a trap. Chaos is much more frequent as of 3 or so years ago, while it 23:45:25 was in a weaker state than times earlier or later than its history. Is it good for a character to potentially "lose" a weapon to it being branded chaos? I would assert most characters with any brand weapon scrolls usually are past the point of the game when they don't have any potential outs, alongside there being several other gods of reasonably solid overall strength these days who would make one lose a weapon anyway. Brand weapon scrolls already 23:45:25 present risks because they can provide one with a brand a lot weaker than one had on it already, like venom on earlygame two-handers or draining on lategame characters or spectral on frailer characters who don't want to take all the damage-sharing.) 23:49:37 <06regret-⸸nde※> (I personally would prefer there to be some chance of chaos being of interest to non-Xom characters- a lot of brands have been somewhat flattenned over time between nerfing electrocution's damage, increasing spectral's damage sharing, and buffing venom's output, and Chaos is one of the few things that's been allowed to be unique. There's plenty of other nasty things gathered up in Crawl over the last years I'd note as a lot 23:49:38 worse than risking a weapon's brand on mixed benefit, like ambush vaults increasing over time or overall monster gimmick increases, anyway.) 23:52:56 <06regret-⸸nde※> (...Huh. I didn't notice while (old_brand == new_brand || god_hates_brand(new_brand)). The rest of my statement still stands.) 23:55:23 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-35-g516f9d4634