05:05:02 Salticid (L19 KoCK) ERROR: range check error (27000 / 2000) (Snake:3) 05:29:43 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.33-a0-21-g2325b17 (34) 07:36:41 03Medrano8302 07* 0.33-a0-22-g4120489253: Android fix. Declare the gategory of the app as a game 10(11 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4120489253e2 07:37:46 03Medrano8302 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-23-gd714572638: Android fix. Declare the gategory of the app as a game 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d714572638db 09:27:02 Species idea: Satyrs. 09:27:02 They would have a unique 'bleeding' mechanic, where damage and healing is slowly moved to the correct amount, so they are almost impossible to instakill. Poison and elemental damage would bypass the bleeding, and bleeding would function as a double edged sword, as healing is also slowed. 09:30:43 <06pleasingfungus> as cf noted on #dcss, this is similar to the poison god idea (positive) 09:31:01 <06pleasingfungus> insofar as it seems like there might be interesting gameplay in slower damage 09:31:18 <06pleasingfungus> > healing is also slowed how? 09:31:22 what's the poison god idea? 09:31:33 <06pleasingfungus> > elemental damage would bypass the bleeding why? 09:31:53 <06pleasingfungus> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/wiki/Poison-God-Proposal 09:32:14 If you were burning, you would hurt but you wouldn't bleed. 09:32:38 <06pleasingfungus> ah, theme argument 09:32:39 <02Monkooky> don't worry so much about theme yeah 09:32:46 <06pleasingfungus> seems like a rabbit hole tbh 09:32:53 <06pleasingfungus> crawl has many many many damage types 09:33:42 <06pleasingfungus> i’d worry about being in a position where we had to individually declare which of them could and couldn’t cause bleeding 09:33:42 <02Monkooky> re: comparison to poison god: without a built-in way to interact with the bleeding, then when you don't have healing available it's not really a real mechanic 09:34:22 <06pleasingfungus> and where players had to guess which ones would or wouldn’t cause bleeding 09:35:31 <06pleasingfungus> re ui, i do think this would be tricky 09:35:51 <06pleasingfungus> you’d probably want some way to indicate how much ‘pending’ damage / healing you have coming 09:36:03 <06pleasingfungus> poison already has a dedicated ui for this 09:36:31 <06pleasingfungus> would you have to reinvent that for bleed, and figure how to make the two interact? 09:36:58 <06pleasingfungus> or maybe you could make this species poison immune, so you could re use the poison ui without worrying about overlaps? 09:37:32 <06pleasingfungus> i agree with monkooky’s point that you need some way to avert impending damage - otherwise it’s just slow death 09:38:14 <06pleasingfungus> can think about bloodborne, where quickly countering after taking damage saves you from it 09:38:24 Similar to poison, the pending damage is stored in a variable. The display would be color coded such that (Red, Yellow, White, Gray) =Bad and (Light green, Dark green, Blue, Light blue) = Good 09:38:31 <02Monkooky> you could do something with ghoul style -Regen and high innate regen to make it a 'clear LOS to not die' 09:39:08 <06pleasingfungus> likewise, here, you can imagine something where damaging enemies can clean up ‘pending’ damage (but not actually heal you) 09:39:20 You could lose up to 5% of your hp per turn. 09:39:29 Or gain 09:40:14 <06pleasingfungus> it’d create scenarios where you take a big hit and have to decide - run away or fight to cancel the damage? 09:40:53 <02Monkooky> it's still got a weirdly magnifying effect on healing though 09:40:56 <06pleasingfungus> lemurrobot: i don’t understand, sorry. what are you coloring? 09:41:13 <06pleasingfungus> the hp bar? a status text? 09:41:16 The status effect for Bleed 09:41:54 <06pleasingfungus> ah, you’d display it as something like Flay, rather than showing it in the hp bar like poison? 09:42:22 <06pleasingfungus> seems slightly unfortunate - means players need to do math to figure out if they’re alive or dead, especially with regen involved 09:42:52 <06pleasingfungus> like you’re at 29 hp and you have 31 bleed coming. you have regen of 0.8 per turn. are you dead? 09:43:15 <06pleasingfungus> do you need to heal, or can you just wait out the bleed safely? 09:43:24 <06pleasingfungus> poison ui answers this question 09:43:38 <06pleasingfungus> and players would ask this sort of thing very frequently 09:44:47 <02Monkooky> teacher, the exam doesn't say how much the bleed per turn is! 09:44:54 <06pleasingfungus> that was intentional 09:45:05 <06pleasingfungus> lemur’s proposed ui wouldn’t say either :p 09:45:58 <02Monkooky> UI aside- I feel like you'd want this to cut off or make less relevant easy access to healing 09:47:04 The bleed status would normally follow similar rules to poison, EXCEPT when you have taken fatal damage, in which case enemy attack do real damage to the player (so the player can't run in and out of fights, healing afterwards,) 09:47:05 While the bleed is fatal, is is shown as magenta. You can still regen out of it, but the regen also is counted in the bleed effect. The fatal feature of doing real damage also works in reverse, when you would heal to full HP from reverse bleeding, drinking a health potion grants real HP instead of incrementing the bleed counter. 09:47:22 <06pleasingfungus> i also wonder about the rates 09:47:25 <02Monkooky> This in particular has some silly interactions with regen- use shapeshifting to get your mhp down to 20, get 1 hp/turn, bing bang boom you're invincible 09:47:45 <06pleasingfungus> above, lemur, you suggested you’d take at most 5% of your (max?) hp per turn 09:48:08 <06pleasingfungus> first question: you did mean max hp, right? otherwise, you could never die 09:48:23 <06pleasingfungus> second: doesn’t that mean this mechanic does nothing most of the time? 09:48:25 Well, you forgot to account for the fatal bleeding mechanic 09:48:28 <06pleasingfungus> most hits aren’t that big 09:48:43 Max hp 09:48:47 <06pleasingfungus> so mostly you’d just take all the damage immediately, or maybe a turn later 09:49:05 You could probably tweak it 09:49:06 <06pleasingfungus> huge hits that blow out 50+% of your hp aren’t that common 09:49:11 <06pleasingfungus> contrast poison 09:49:25 <06pleasingfungus> which has a variable rate depending on the amount of damage queued 09:49:57 <06pleasingfungus> re fatal bleeding: this is starting to sound extremely complicated :p 09:50:38 <06pleasingfungus> remember: players need to understand how this works, and to be able to intuit or guess how it’ll interact with the rest of crawl’s many systems 09:51:09 <06pleasingfungus> the more epicycles you add, the harder it will be for anyone to understand or enjoy this species 09:51:36 <06pleasingfungus> look for the beautiful and elegant core idea hiding beneath the distractions 09:51:56 Essentially, you take damage slowly, unless that slow damage would kill you. The fatal damage mechanic is used to prevent using the species to cheese portal levels. 09:52:40 <06pleasingfungus> ok, let’s say that instead of having a special fatal bleed rule, we didn’t 09:53:01 <06pleasingfungus> can you explain to me in more detail what problems we’d face? 09:54:29 A player could rush through a portal level with a swiftness potion, and as long as they have a health potion, they become immortal for the portal level. (They wouldn't have to do any fighting.) 09:54:56 Especially in the gauntlet 09:55:53 <06pleasingfungus> hm, i still don’t understand 09:56:15 <06pleasingfungus> leaving a portal doesn’t erase damage taken, right? don’t you still die? 09:57:13 <06pleasingfungus> also, are you really going to be able to loot a portal level in 20 turns? 30 if hasted, i guess? 09:57:24 <06pleasingfungus> also, aren’t the enemies going to physically block you? 09:58:07 <06pleasingfungus> (20 turns = time it takes for 5% mhp per turn damage to kill you) 09:59:15 Oh wait... This might work without so much random stuff! The cheese fix could instead add a minimum bleed-per-turn (your regen rate) to fix the 'interesting interactions' with talismans. 10:01:37 And regen affecting the bleed timer instead of directly regenerating the player might be an even better fix! 10:01:37 <02Monkooky> that still seems like 'random stuff'- and doesn't seem to fix anything either, as it means you take 0 damage instead of healing when 5% of your mhp is less than your regen rate 10:03:39 If the player has 2 regen per turn, 40 bleed, and 2 hp, the game would just round up and the player would end up with 37 bleed, and 1 hp. 10:04:41 <02Monkooky> yeah you aim for 20 hp so rounding isn't an issue 10:06:20 <02Monkooky> to short circuit this conversation a bit- limiting your damage taken by your max HP is going to have very strange incentives to lower your max HP, no matter the patches applied 10:06:20 So we basically carved this crude idea into a viable species! Can't wait til next decade when it gets added. 10:08:05 <02Monkooky> I think it is perhaps a little premature to call this a viable species 10:08:14 Also lowering max hp still makes it harder for your satyr to survive, as bleed quickly goes higher than hp. 10:16:55 <02Monkooky> if you have 20 mhp, a potion of curing is an average of 8 turns of life each point of regen is effectively + 20 max hp in terms of real damage taken before dying character with mhp <= 20*regen + 20 is strictly better off with 20 mhp, as being at 20 mhp will make healing have significantly higher impact 10:18:50 Being at low MHP without bleeding also makes healing have a higher impact. 10:21:26 <02Monkooky> no, not really. with bleeding, your MHP dictates your damage taken per turn. A potion of curing with 20 MHP is +8 turns alive; with 40 MHP it's +4 turns alive. 10:24:08 <02Monkooky> Without bleeding, your MHP has no impact on damage taken per turn. Yes, the percent healed is higher with lower MHP, but you only care about the percent healed if enemy damage is a percent of MHP. 10:25:26 The healing also works slower. 10:25:38 (As stated earlier) 10:26:26 <02Monkooky> That, it turns out, is completely irrelevant 10:26:46 <02Monkooky> assuming you're using the same 5%/turn cap on healing 10:28:05 <02Monkooky> if a potion of curing goes from 'heal 8' to 'heal 8, but over 8 turns and I can only take 1 damage per turn' then the only change is how big my health pool looks, never the point at which I die 10:31:07 <06pleasingfungus> i gotta head out for now, but thanks for talking about this, lemur and monkooky! 10:31:13 <06pleasingfungus> it’s been fun 🙂 11:48:10 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-23-g89b494631c: Make recruitable apostles disappear when you change floor 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/89b494631c53 11:48:10 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-24-g6d945e7588: Use attack_strength_punctuation for shock serpent reprisal (cfcfcfcfcf) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 18+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6d945e75881f 11:48:12 03DracoOmega02 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-24-g6fa0b4e2f0: Make recruitable apostles disappear when you change floor 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6fa0b4e2f0b6 11:48:12 03DracoOmega02 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-25-g6e16e1017e: Use attack_strength_punctuation for shock serpent reprisal (cfcfcfcfcf) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 18+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6e16e1017e07 12:27:57 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-25-gb05a317584: Fix a crash when shock serpent reprisal kills a monster 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b05a31758488 12:27:58 03DracoOmega02 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-26-gfb936395f4: Fix a crash when shock serpent reprisal kills a monster 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fb936395f405 15:38:27 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.33-a0-25-gb05a317584 (34) 18:09:39 <08nicolae> is anybody else getting buggy item/mons placement in vaults 18:09:53 <08nicolae> i'm working off a fresh compile 18:10:26 <08nicolae> hangedman_surveillance_ring comes up a lot in the error messages 18:12:08 <06mumra> I feel like I was noticing that a lot the other day too (not necessarily that vault, but definitely in a few vaults) 18:23:40 <04dracoomega> Try clearing the des cache 18:24:53 <08nicolae> how does one do that 18:25:37 <04dracoomega> Delete the /des directory inside /saves 18:39:58 <08nicolae> yep there we go 18:40:02 <08nicolae> danke! 19:11:06 <06mumra> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1277450217419051090/image.png?ex=66cd35b9&is=66cbe439&hm=7922d1c103259fc741f9e2bf16d5811ce93d0ccdd1c250eeecc1a4e5f72d4981& 19:11:21 <06mumra> Very helpful last message there 😂 19:49:14 <08nicolae> okay, i'm working on r-i's request for vaults vaults with more coherent themes. i have completed one. 20:28:10 <04dracoomega> @gammafunk Hmmm... does CDI not announce crashes here? 20:29:01 I don't think it has a bot to report milestones from 20:30:45 <04dracoomega> (Someone mentioned repeatedly crashing, though I've only seen one crashlog I pulled up after they mentioned this. Seems to be a gavotte targeter issue) 20:31:10 !crashlog * cdi 20:31:12 <04dracoomega> I've kind of come to take the crash alerts (or lack thereof!) for granted, I suppose 20:31:17 440. StairDanceDays, XL19 FeCj, T:81346 (milestone): https://crawl.dcss.io/crawl/morgue/StairDanceDays/crash-StairDanceDays-20240826-023337.txt 20:32:40 <04dracoomega> (The problem seems somewhat straightfoward, now that I've seen this, but...) 20:32:44 <06regret-⸸nde※> Plumutoo's decor should help fairly directly on that end of things, though I'm personally still rather undecided on how to integrate more than a small number of them around- I've got mixed feelings about most approaches. I suspect I'd like to use the flower garden, battle standards, and flower vases enough to add features for the latter two, entirely seperately of a second replaceable-feature like metal statues (versus not 20:32:45 bothering with a description at all versus seeking out some third options like always putting them on top of other features). There's not a lot of easy dev knowledge for defining feature names for given glyphs, alas, since the map code isn't nearly flexible enough to support such without quite a bit more investigative effort. 20:33:42 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Have you seen the five or so themes I've made already prior?) 20:39:28 <04dracoomega> Okay, I said 'seems straightforward', but currently I'm not able to get it to check an out-of-bounds space even when attempting to reproduce the situation of the crash specifically 20:40:16 <04dracoomega> (I could conservatively add such a check regardless, but if I don't quite understand how it happened, I can't be sure it isn't something else) 20:51:13 <04dracoomega> Ohhhhh, I think I see 20:51:59 <04dracoomega> This is deeply silly 20:52:22 <04dracoomega> C++ // If we are moving out of the player's line of sight, use map knowledge // to estimate collisions with walls the player has already seen, but do // not leak info about unseen terrain. const bool seen = you.see_cell(pos); dungeon_feature_type feat = seen ? env.grid(pos) : env.map_knowledge(pos).feat(); // Assume that monsters can pass through 20:52:22 unknown terrain if (feat == DNGN_UNSEEN) feat = DNGN_FLOOR; 20:52:43 <04dracoomega> It happens if you're on the level boundary and you haven't seen it 20:53:11 <04dracoomega> So, to act like there's nothing there to hit, the game pretends never-seen terrain is floor. But that also means that it keeps on moving past the level boundary to see the next spot 20:53:44 <04dracoomega> Since, y'know, floor isn't blocking a monster's movement 22:06:24 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.33-a0-26-gd232e38429: Don't crash when aiming Gavotte near the edges of an unseen map boundary 10(40 seconds ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d232e3842944 22:06:49 Stable (0.32) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-b1-26-gfb936395f4 22:07:29 03DracoOmega02 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-27-g72ec942466: Don't crash when aiming Gavotte near the edges of an unseen map boundary 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/72ec9424666b 22:35:21 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-26-gd232e38429 (34) 22:58:04 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-26-gd232e38429 23:13:20 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.33-a0-26-gd232e38429 (34) 23:55:15 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-26-gd232e38429