05:07:27 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.33-a0-6-gb2e620d (34) 09:44:24 <05icoson> does anyone know offhand what vault is in this reddit post? I first thought it looked like evilmike_ambush but if so I'm now severely confused about how that vault places: https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/1ewzjy1/psa_in_trunk_its_not_safe_to_enter_d12_before/ 09:48:39 <05icoson> ah from what the poster said I think this is at least partly an unlucky combo of sonja placing inside hangedman_surveillance_ring (no_monster_gen won't block that) 10:52:00 <06regret-⸸nde※> I am not even slightly concerned about somebody going to D:12 before Lair getting a combination of a unique and an ambush vault, especially when they can in fact go back up the stairs. 10:52:56 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Also when everything is placed away from the stairs so nothing will follow them.) 10:55:55 <06regret-⸸nde※> (The meliai is a shapeshifter, for the record.) 10:57:58 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Pre-Lair I'd be substantially more worried about going down the stairs into a skeletal warrior band or slime creatures next to the stairs, which can happen without any vaults involved at all.) 11:25:35 <06pleasingfungus> seems good yeah 11:25:39 <06pleasingfungus> emergent gameplay etc 12:27:02 <05icoson> yeah I wasn't really suggesting it needed changing, just trying to figure out what was going on (maybe if the vault had intentionally done all that I'd think it needed changing) 12:27:43 <05icoson> I do wonder though if it would be good if uniq vault placement respected no_monster_gen? 12:28:55 <04dracoomega> I sort of feel at this point that it's a characteristic thing that uniques can show up to cause problems more or less wherever they want 12:29:04 <04dracoomega> (A positive thing, to be clear) 12:42:30 <06pleasingfungus> i think it’s mildly bad but also occasionally funny 12:42:36 <06pleasingfungus> so it balances out 14:10:42 <06pleasingfungus> crossposting belatedly: there were roughly five big conversations about invisibility in #dcss this week 14:10:55 <06pleasingfungus> there might've been something interesting in there somewhere, though i don't think any conclusions were reached 14:11:20 <06pleasingfungus> i might try to dig up interesting notes later if folx want, but if anyone has anything they thought was notable and want to cross-post here, that would make various people happy 14:12:56 <04dracoomega> I feel almost too much was said to condense all that well 14:13:54 <04dracoomega> (I do still want to take a stab at a variety of things that were discussed in 0.33, but I'll acquiesce to doing Forgecraft first, at least :P) 14:16:53 <06pleasingfungus> haha. 'if you must' 14:19:14 <04dracoomega> I mean, I still think there are fun things that can be done there that will be less annoying for people who dislike it and still get the spirit for people who do. We'll see how it pans out eventually, at the very least. 14:19:42 <04dracoomega> Also, I feel this makes it slightly less silly than it actually was, which was that there were about 5 big conversationson invisibility in the same day 14:20:35 <04dracoomega> As people kept noticing the tail end of one and making a remark about something that had been thoroughly discussed an hour ago and somehow starting it again ^^; 14:26:05 <06pleasingfungus> true 14:26:11 <06pleasingfungus> however i didn't remember which day of the week it was 14:30:27 <06pleasingfungus> some vague half remembered snippets: - invisibility works best when you can't predict where monsters are by taking notes on where you saw them last and what's happened since (eg monsters that are batty, blinky, etc) 14:30:50 <06pleasingfungus> - it'd be nice if monsters that shot stuff at you got their positions marked, since right now you have to set animations to be real slow to make sure to catch that 14:31:11 <06pleasingfungus> - it'd be nice if there was more of a guessing game about what invis monsters were, rather than always knowing what they are based on depth etc 14:31:43 <06pleasingfungus> - it'd be nice if the game showed players some information about what a given invisible monster might be, maybe changing the game rules in some way to make that possible, similar to the /poly changes 14:34:21 <12ge0ff> * it'd be nice if autofight/automagic treated silhouettes of invisible monsters as real monsters 14:34:40 <06pleasingfungus> re guessing game - that might involve adding more invis monsters, or making more existing monsters invis, or removing invis from some monsters 14:34:46 <06pleasingfungus> (wow, very helpful, me) 14:34:56 <06pleasingfungus> - sky beasts are unloved and may not survive the winter 14:36:57 <06pleasingfungus> - there was a big discussion about autofight working vs silhouettes of invis monsters. implojin (iirc?) was very strongly against - he'd implemented this and found it was extremely annoying, because autofight would repeatedly stop and start working over the course of a fight, as monsters appeared and disappeared 14:37:03 <06pleasingfungus> *as silhouettes 14:41:39 <12ge0ff> there were counterarguments to that: the current behavior is worse, as you get confirmation prompts for breaking ozo's armour/ramparts or for moving into clouds each time you just want to hit sensed invis monster 14:45:53 <04dracoomega> I think a more general UI improvement on the subject would be better than either stance on whether autofight should/shouldn't care about sillhouettes (though obviously this is much more non-trivial) 14:46:25 <12ge0ff> (also need to mention Monkooky's (?) idea of always/more often showing the silhouettes when invis monsters are right next to the player) 14:47:38 <04dracoomega> As another super-condensed bullet point on those discussions, there was also talk about a variety of mechanical effects that can accomplish some of the 'good' parts of invisibility (interesting surprises, relevant ambiguity of information that can cause different decision-making than other situations) without the 'bad' parts of it (various UI issues, learnability problems for new players who don't understand what is happening) 14:47:57 <04dracoomega> Some of which I am interested in exploring in 0.33 14:57:38 <04dracoomega> Really, some combination of 'general UI improvements regarding invisibility', 'remove/replace invisibility on a bunch of monsters where it does less of value', and 'explore a few of the proposed new monster gimmicks in this space' is what I'd like to do, collectively 14:58:03 <04dracoomega> (Probably doesn't end up being all done at once, since there's a lot here, but...) 15:15:26 <06mumra> (Hmm. An invisible wall monster would be terrifying. You wouldn't know where it was coming from.) 15:24:11 <08nicolae> iirc piles of debris are implemented as monsters. time for vaults full of invisible debri-- 15:26:25 remember rock worms? 15:26:38 <06mumra> Was talking about monsters that occupy wall tiles. Not walls that are actually monsters. Which is something I have working in a much more interesting way than rock worms (i.e. you can actually attack them) 15:27:47 <04dracoomega> Yeah, rock fish are something I would have been happy to try out in 0.32 and will still be in 0.33 at some point ^^; 15:28:30 <08nicolae> bah. no imagination! a wall that is a monster is so much better 15:28:31 <06mumra> An invisible one would probably just be too nasty 15:29:26 <06mumra> Ha, also something i have thought about 🙂 (although did wall mimics ever exist?) 15:32:18 <08nicolae> they did and in fact still do 15:32:25 <08nicolae> and in fact appear once or twice 15:34:25 New branch created: pull/3990 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3990 15:34:26 03Alejandro Ramirez02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3990 * 0.33-a0-7-gde617bfd0c: Add a god protection check to monsters in Fulsome Fusillade clouds to protect them from adverse effects, as they are already protected from the spell's main damage (acrobat3) 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/de617bfd0cb1 15:35:50 <06mumra> The thing is working quite well, mostly with not too heavy underlying changes. Unfortunately I ultimately realised there is a much bigger refactor needed of cell_is_solid checks to enable the player to use any normal attack against them. Specifically cloud placement is really problematic, but also a lot of spell/abiliity targetters use cell_is_solid checks in addition to LOS checks, so potentially a lot more places need to change to a 15:35:51 "cell is solid unless there's a monster there" check. Or say that clouds are one thing that can't affect them. 15:38:39 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.33-a0-6-gb2e620de6b (34) 15:38:46 <06mumra> This is the branch i mentioned in #dcss in fact as I experimented with a few more wall dwellers later in D, basically a set of Lichen monsters that start off simple but band members that appear at later depths buff the basic ones so they stay relevant for a longer stretch. 15:39:10 <06mumra> Also i made a version of the Mossbeast from index's notes, it spawns lichen as well as toadstools 15:39:15 <06mumra> (Doesn't go in walls itself) 15:39:26 <04dracoomega> I mean, I think it's fair to say that clouds don't go in walls, but that things with target a monster directly should all still work) 15:40:06 <04dracoomega> This doesn't feel contradictory to me 15:43:01 <06mumra> Yes and I think it wouldn't be unfair for them to enjoy some extra protection from being in a wall, and clouds are a minor enough thing that wouldn't be too annoying but still removes some options 15:44:42 <06mumra> I felt like there were at least some spells/abilities that rely on clouds to do their work but should conceptually be able to target a monster on the wall but I can't think of a good example right now 15:48:46 <06mumra> But a lot of non-cloud spells still have specific problems 15:48:48 <06mumra> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1276674530722582560/image.png?ex=66ca634f&is=66c911cf&hm=fa2d8cfc98a5ca164f1ad333dba2e76cc2b1ff345b4977f166cb72fcf1ca16d8& 15:49:38 <06mumra> Airstrike prob shouldn't be giving a 4 space bonus here (and is leaking information even?) 15:52:11 <04dracoomega> I don't think it's leaking info. The player has seen those tiles. 15:53:17 <04dracoomega> (It possibly shouldn't count them here, though there's some disagreement between 'intuitive understanding of how the spell works' and 'the literal text of how the spell works') 15:53:24 <04dracoomega> So maybe it's fine 15:53:45 <04dracoomega> There is more air around a narrow wall than a deep one, I guess 16:02:19 03gammafunk02 07* 0.33-a0-7-gfa02dad217: fix: Don't mark certain spells as self enchantment 10(22 hours ago, 3 files, 25+ 31-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fa02dad21776 16:03:25 03gammafunk02 07[stone_soup-0.32] * 0.32-b1-8-g0b4fe110a3: fix: Don't mark certain spells as self enchantment 10(22 hours ago, 3 files, 25+ 31-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0b4fe110a30c 16:06:31 -!- TAS-2012v is now known as TAS_2012v 16:06:39 <06mumra> Yep. But conceptually shouldn't be able to strike them from 4 sides, only from the side they're exposed on. But possibly nobody will care 🙂 16:14:03 <06pleasingfungus> seems like the displayed behavior there is correct, yeah 16:40:59 <06mumra> it's maybe more finished than i thought tbh. definitely early 0.33 potential 16:41:59 New branch created: pull/3991 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3991 16:41:59 03Alejandro Ramirez02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3991 * 0.33-a0-7-gf470b08d71: Redraw the player doll when losing wings so that draconians that lose their big wing mutation see the change immediately (kuniqsX) 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f470b08d71fe 18:12:36 <02Monkooky> I think the better version of this is 'never erase sillohuettes unless the monster moves' 22:06:51 Stable (0.32) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-b1-8-g0b4fe110a3 22:35:30 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-7-gfa02dad217 (34) 22:58:18 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-7-gfa02dad217 23:02:56 New branch created: pull/3992 (2 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3992 23:02:58 03perci02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3992 * 0.32-a0-2097-g76360c9c34: Define new decor sprites in dc-feat and yak in dc-mon 10(4 minutes ago, 2 files, 33+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/76360c9c348d 23:02:58 03perci02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3992 * 0.32-a0-2098-ge0820828bb: Added a batch of 43 vault and decor sprites, including baked goods caches, flower pots, banners, fountains, and a mop 10(3 minutes ago, 44 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e0820828bb25 23:13:55 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.33-a0-7-gfa02dad217 (34) 23:55:09 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.33-a0-7-gfa02dad217 23:59:42 New branch created: pull/3993 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3993 23:59:42 03CipHuK02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3993 * 0.33-a0-7-g669b890596: fix(trove): allow wand of digging for trove_misc_dual_throne_room 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/669b890596dd