03:32:56 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5208-geafff8c3b6 05:30:28 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1967-g9dd0097 (34) 07:06:10 -!- rozlav1 is now known as rozlav 07:10:43 FR: TSO getting interesting capstones like Newkhleb instead of the current snoozefest 09:07:15 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1968-gec6e65acc9: Add another book magic entry to artefacts. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ec6e65acc982 10:01:46 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1969-g666e40ff79: Fix punctuation. 10(9 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/666e40ff795b 10:01:46 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1970-g61fea11729: Add a few lines to Zin angels/goblin sharpers. 10(15 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/61fea11729b2 10:52:02 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1971-g3fab5b5d33: Fix comment typo. 10(66 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3fab5b5d338d 11:20:55 <04dracoomega> I sort of assume this is true, but would just like to confirm with someone who knows for sure: The servers fully regenerate their des caches on each version update, right? 11:21:58 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1972-g996240b6d9: Fix comment wording. 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/996240b6d9b3 11:23:07 yes, there used to be bugs with that that caused mayhem so the des caches are version-stamped including git revision, and rebuilt when the version mismatches 11:26:16 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1973-gd77ae7e48b: Fix ranged auto-fight behaviour with Soul Splinter (CarefulOdds) 10(70 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d77ae7e48b14 11:26:46 <04dracoomega> Someone reported a bunch of monsters being buggily placed in walls in Vaults just now, and me and Index had recently seen this problem a whole bunch somewhat recently. Spent a while bisecting commits after the Makheb push, and I was never able to reproduce even though she was. And then we realized that regenerating her des cache made the problem go away. But they're playing online, so presumably that can't be the issue. 11:27:02 <04dracoomega> (But I thought I'd double-check) 11:31:10 I suppose it's possible someone broke the check, although it's always seemed to rebuild pretty reliably here 11:32:54 that said, I'm pretty sure I've seen the game put monsters in walls even with a valid des cache 11:33:08 many of those were bugs that have been fixed, but there still might be a few lurking 11:33:48 <04dracoomega> It was super consistent locally for a bit, until manually regenerating 11:33:57 <04dracoomega> (In Vaults) 11:34:31 <04dracoomega> I think it was like... placing the monsters and items from a vault, but not the wall/floor layout of the vault (which of course could place things in walls at random based on whatever underlying walls there were) 11:35:09 <04dracoomega> A bunch of these were transporter vaults, but that may have been coincidence 11:35:57 <04dracoomega> (It might just be that they were the largest/densest things commonly placing there) 11:43:39 <03implojin> re bugs that put monsters in walls: i noticed the other day that entering wizmode, using revelation, and wizmode-travelling floor by floor through the dungeon with &~ on the same turn revelation was active, seemed to have a high chance of emitting a bunch of vault placement error messages. i assumed at the time that those error messages themselves were buggy and unable to handle wizmode travel, but maybe not and this is a way of 11:43:39 reproducing something else? 11:44:53 <04dracoomega> Were these error messages about the placement of the vault itself and not specifically 'item/monster buggily in wall'? 11:45:06 <03implojin> hmm let me see if i can reproduce it 11:45:23 <03implojin> one of the errors was about placing a monster in a wall in gammafunk_its_a_trap iirc 11:45:33 <04dracoomega> Hmmm 11:47:26 <03implojin> yeah ok, i still have that save and the errors were in the log, they were item buggily placed in feature and monster placed in stone/metal wall 11:47:31 <03implojin> there were a bunch of them 11:47:53 <04dracoomega> I'll see if I can reproduce 11:48:20 <03implojin> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1269003871607328869/Screenshot_2024-08-02_13-48-01.png?ex=66ae7b73&is=66ad29f3&hm=147c34954ab77053773f61da09933ed9b1671bc7cb55e797ba13bd0d39f6e478& 11:49:26 <04dracoomega> This was just "Read ?rev and then wizard shift onto new levels while ?rev is still active", right? 11:49:50 <04dracoomega> (If so, I just did that a whole bunch and cannot reproduce even once) 11:50:03 <03implojin> the steps to reproduce were: enter wizmode, create a stack of revelation, read revelation, wizmode travel between floors with &~ 11:50:08 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I did that 11:50:12 <03implojin> not every floor had these errors but several did 11:50:21 <04dracoomega> I'll do it some more, just in case 11:50:22 <03implojin> hmm 11:50:45 <03implojin> oh, sorry, it was necessary to wizmode travel during the same turn revelation was read 11:51:41 <04dracoomega> Yes, I assumed as much 11:51:50 <04dracoomega> But I did it a few dozen more times without any errors 11:51:54 <03implojin> hm 11:53:04 <04dracoomega> (You are still able to reproduce this reliably on your end?) 11:54:52 <03implojin> trying now 12:03:54 <03implojin> yeah i can't reproduce this in a fresh game and the relevant dump looks like the save was upgraded twice, maybe it was just a stale local des cache 12:04:05 <03implojin> sorry :/ 12:04:08 <03implojin> > 279 | D:1 | Upgraded the game from 0.32-a0-1868-gc4896267e4 to | 0.32-a0-1952-g3b7b6a97b3 284 | D:1 | Found the +0 toga "Victory" {*Victory Clar} 304 | D:1 | Upgraded the game from 0.32-a0-1952-g3b7b6a97b3 to | 0.32-a0-1954-g2b9147af3d 12:04:57 <04dracoomega> Hmmm... I wonder if it's possible that this could happen online due to save upgraded games in some fashion. 12:05:15 <04dracoomega> Though it certainly can't be very common, given how rarely I've seen it reported 12:07:09 <04dracoomega> (A lot of vault placement code is still very arcane to me, so it's hard to do much without a reproducible issue) 12:13:46 <09gammafunk> @dracoomega regarding these "buggy monster placed in wall" messages for Vaults, such messages have been common in objstat since I first wrote that tool. Objstat runs done as a batch via my standard script start from a fresh build copied to a new directory that run crawl -builddb before running the objstat itself. Hence I think there are some issues related to monster placement for Vaults layouts that are totally unrelated to any 12:13:47 issues with des cache 12:14:53 <04dracoomega> You say 'totally unrelated', but in two different cases locally, it went from "These errors happen at least 50% of the time when regenerating a Vaults floor." to "We can't get it to happen even a single time, no matter how many times we try." 12:15:01 <04dracoomega> I mean, there may be an additional problem that doesn't require this 12:15:15 <04dracoomega> But it seems clear that this can wildly exacerbate it, whatever it is 12:17:03 <09gammafunk> Well, that's a matter of semantics 12:17:52 <09gammafunk> My point is that in some cases it's not caused by a problem with des cache 12:18:59 <04dracoomega> I am curious how it could make it so vastly more common, though. (I don't really understand the relevant code enough to speculate beyond 'it feels weird that it would' >.>) 12:19:14 <09gammafunk> if it helps for debugging, you can see these errors every 50-100 times a Vaults level is generated by objstat 12:19:44 <09gammafunk> but that's a very rough estimate based on looking at lines of progress output from objstat 12:20:10 <09gammafunk> oh, and that's assuming you can even read those due to all the errors generated from the shipped bones files :yogidaFeels: 12:43:22 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1974-g857e39b105: Properly ban eye sacrifices for eyeless players. 10(9 minutes ago, 2 files, 1+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/857e39b1056d 12:56:13 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1975-g9a6a6aee9f: Consistently add commas to definitions. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9a6a6aee9f95 13:16:59 <04dracoomega> @dolorous_84348 I hadn't actually realized it did this until someone else pointed it out, but I don't think preventing vine stalkers from being offered Sacrifice Eye is a good idea (nor do I think it's one players would anticipate). In fact, I hadn't realized that all of the recent body part refactoring code made vine stalkers also immune to being blinded and I'm not sure how I feel about that either. It feels a little like it's on 13:17:00 the 'simulationist' end of things which Crawl has moved away from over the years - a small detail that makes some flavor sense, but which would be hard for a player to expect or anticipate without already knowing it. 13:17:44 <04dracoomega> (I had actually assumed the 'Sac Eye' thing was in reference to future poltergeist potential, and even there I don't think it's a great idea. There are currently no sacrifices that depend in any way on your species) 13:19:08 <06dolorous_84348> The player blinding code intended it, but it didn't work because none of the things it assumed to have plant holiness actually did. I can put eyes back on vine stalkers easily. Tree-form and fungus-form still don't have them; should I put it back for them as well? 13:19:11 <04dracoomega> I realize that plant hoiliness monsters cannot be blinded in general, but vine stalkers are already weirdly humanoid-like, and I am sure there are other things plants are unaffected by which player vine stalkers are not 13:19:42 <04dracoomega> (Like, they're explicitly parasitizing a humanoid form - why not assume it's using their eyes in some fashion?) 13:19:55 <04dracoomega> (For that matter, Maurice's eye holes glow) 13:20:24 <04dracoomega> The player blinding code intended it Are you saying that was there in Mumra's original commits in some form? 13:20:25 <06dolorous_84348> I figured glowing holes could mean sight through something that resembled eyes, but were not. But it could go either way. 13:20:50 <06dolorous_84348> Yes. Give me a second to find it. 13:24:20 <06dolorous_84348> %git 624a8697e9186734d2e7079e35b91a6dcf338f77 13:24:20 <04Cerebot> mumra {DracoOmega} * 0.32-a0-1497-g624a8697e9: Monster version of Dazzling Flash (3 months ago, 12 files, 111+ 46-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/624a8697e918 13:24:45 <06dolorous_84348> player::can_be_dazzled() explicitly listed plant holiness there. 13:24:54 <06dolorous_84348> It just didn't work. 13:25:32 <03implojin> i think that player holiness check could be reasonably removed, it doesn't add much except player knowledge burden 13:25:38 <06dolorous_84348> (As for why they couldn't be dazzled, I had to assume they didn't have eyes, but trees and fungi wouldn't.) 13:25:59 <04dracoomega> I wonder if I noticed that when I reviewed that either? I guess maybe at the time I thought that vine stalkers were MH_PLANT, but there are other ways in which they aren't. 13:26:00 <06dolorous_84348> The holiness check did get removed in my refactor. 13:26:30 <06dolorous_84348> I waffled on plant holiness for vine stalkers myself; how much plant is in them, anyway? 13:28:03 <06dolorous_84348> Also, regarding sacrifices depending on species, the dual-wielding mutation prevents hand sacrifices, so coglins can't get it. Although you're right in the general sense there. 13:28:37 <04dracoomega> I don't think anyone knows a specific answer to that from a flavor perspective, so I'd lean on whatever makes the better mechanics. And I guess my default feeling is that "If status resists are not going to come as a large consistent package (the way undead/non-living stuff does) or be something specifically hilighted as individually impactful, I'm lean against not giving people one-off sort of resists?" Like, undead/non-living 13:28:37 resists are pretty complicated, but they matter a ton, and this package is reused in multiple places. Blindness currently doesn't exist much, and even when it will exist a bit more in 0.33 isn't the hugest thing. I don't think people would expect, I'm not sure it's worth mentioning on 'A', and that makes me wonder if it's better not to exist, you know? 13:29:21 <04dracoomega> (Oh, I actually didn't realize this for Coglins. I wonder if it's just that it would need to be worth a bazillion more piety to ever be worth taking on them?) 13:30:23 <06dolorous_84348> True. 13:31:51 <06dolorous_84348> If the idea is that all species have eyes, I suppose I can remove the no_eyes species flag then? 13:34:00 <04dracoomega> Well, one assumes poltergeists don't have physical eyes, but undead can't be blinded anyway. (I would feel awkward banning Sac Eye from them, though I'm not sure the best solution to that at present. I wonder if it's fine enough to assume that it's metaphorical in that case?) 13:35:20 <06dolorous_84348> Maybe. The current code does allow undead players to be blinded, but not undead monsters. 13:36:31 <04dracoomega> It... it does?? 13:36:52 <04dracoomega> Now that feels like something I wouldn't anticipate, but in the opposite direction 13:37:10 <04dracoomega> We're generally pretty consistent about 'things that don't work on monster undead also don't work on player undead' 13:37:48 <06dolorous_84348> Yes, the original player blinding code put that in. It's also easy to change. 13:38:31 <06dolorous_84348> Since being dazzled and being blinded are not the same thing, should undead players be immune to dazzling as well? 13:40:58 <04dracoomega> In what ways aren't they? 13:41:35 <04dracoomega> (There was a period of time where Wand of Light could blind things that Dazzling Flash could not, but this was changed a decent while before player blindness. Maybe even in 0.31?) 13:41:51 <04dracoomega> Have I forgotten about some difference that still remains? 13:42:34 <06dolorous_84348> Currently, on the player side, being dazzled and being blinded are the same thing; on the monster side, they're not. I'm inclined to make undead players immune to both dazzling and blinding. 13:42:47 <06dolorous_84348> Player blinding shifted a few things. 13:43:01 <04dracoomega> But what is the specific difference on the monster side, I mean 13:44:32 <04dracoomega> Oh. Is it still specifically just that gods can still blind undead 13:44:46 <06dolorous_84348> Monsters can't be blinded if they have the monster-only unblindable flag; monsters can't be dazzled unless they're undead, nonliving, or plant holiness and can be blinded on top of those. 13:45:57 <04dracoomega> Oh, huh, enfeeble also works? 13:46:05 <04dracoomega> (Trying to see what blinding effects check one versus the other) 13:47:56 <04dracoomega> Apparently Enfeeble, Ru's retribution, and Atropa darts will affect undead/nonliving/plants. I think all other sources of blindness will not. 13:48:52 <04dracoomega> (But while those can blind an insubstantial vortex of non-sapient energy, they're still not powerful enough to blind a dog) 13:49:03 <04dracoomega> >.> 13:49:50 <06dolorous_84348> One oddity about making undead unblindable: is there an exception for living vampires, or not, since they get natural holiness instead of undead? 13:50:00 <06dolorous_84348> I mean, should there be? 13:51:31 <04dracoomega> If they're otherwise vulnerable to things humans are in blooded form, I assume it should be the same for this 13:51:44 <06dolorous_84348> Okay. 13:54:07 <04dracoomega> Really is kinda weird to me that the ad hoc unblindable flag takes priority over 'stuff that works even on things which not only do not have eyes but may not even have senses are we understand them at all'. Not that I know what is a better structure here. 13:55:10 <04dracoomega> However we assume that Enfeeble is magically disrupting non-physical senses (it's a high-level hex; it gets to do that!) it seems strange to assume it just doesn't work on something because it also has a good sense of smell. I dunno. 13:55:59 <06dolorous_84348> The unblindable flag seems weird to me too. My refactoring stuff regarding body parts showed a few of those cases. (Blood is no longer dependent on holiness, but I figured if Cigotuvi made some experimental blood-powered flesh golem or something, its being nonliving due to golem status should have no bearing on whether it has blood.) 13:56:16 <06dolorous_84348> I hadn't looked much into Enfeeble, but that is also a good point. 14:00:40 Coglin Sac Hand was a special case because it was much extra code for an incredibly boring sacrifice (the main species gimmick) 14:01:54 <04dracoomega> Ah. That does make sense, yes. (Hadn't even considered the code burden) 14:02:01 <04dracoomega> Like, nobody would want to take it anyway ^^; 14:10:16 <06dolorous_84348> As for vine stalkers' glowing eyes, I wonder if they're the original eyes altered by the vine stalkers' magic, or the original species' eyes being hijacked and replaced by vine stalker equivalents. Color-wise, the red player ones' being yellow are just an imitation of Maurice's, since he's red; and the purple ones' being orange are just for contrast with purple. I also wonder if they're descended from ordinary greenery, red 14:10:17 flowers, or purple eggplants (I was thinking of these when I added the tiles), but that's more philosophical than useful for gameplay. 14:20:48 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1976-g9069b2dbac: Remove lack of eyes from players/monsters. 10(19 minutes ago, 16 files, 41+ 90-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9069b2dbac93 14:20:48 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1977-g1698bd01fb: Reorder Xom body part checks a bit. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1698bd01fbcc 14:20:49 <06dolorous_84348> Everyone's now gotten their eyes back 🙂 14:21:27 <06dolorous_84348> I have no idea what to do regarding Enfeeble, though. 14:23:12 <04dracoomega> Not 100% sure either. Probably no rush (the weirdness is at least old weirdness, not new weirdness ^^; ) 14:24:20 <04dracoomega> Though I do sort of wonder if effects that don't go through the standard holiness checks just shouldn't care about that flag at all. 'Physically blinded' versus 'Magically made unable to sense properly'. This does leave atropa being weird, but there was already talk a while ago about reflavoring the throwables to be magical things anyway 14:24:55 <04dracoomega> (Not a 0.32 thing, but it's possible I'd end up poking at that in 0.33) 14:28:21 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1978-g3c87236292: Add a few more eye messages for Xom. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3c87236292b4 14:30:12 <06dolorous_84348> The distinction between dazzling and blinding is odd, too, and could probably be simplified. But, as you said, 0.33 can sort that out. 14:48:46 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1979-gf771970a14: Remove stray blank line/semicolon. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f771970a148d 14:57:21 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1980-gb3ecabcc9f: Improve player blindness check. 10(88 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b3ecabcc9fad 15:39:08 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-1980-gb3ecabcc9f (34) 18:35:30 03regret-index02 07* 0.32-a0-1981-gc472126ed2: New Xom action: special bazaar banishment 10(29 hours ago, 4 files, 370+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c472126ed2a9 18:35:30 03regret-index02 07* 0.32-a0-1982-gc468895e65: Let Xom add an extra chaos brand to unrands (DracoOmega) 10(26 hours ago, 17 files, 80+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c468895e6595 18:35:30 03regret-index02 07* 0.32-a0-1983-g6abdf1223d: New Xom action: force speaking a slow Word of Recall 10(11 minutes ago, 6 files, 129+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6abdf1223d95 18:38:50 -!- MakMorn_ is now known as MakMorn 20:22:22 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1984-g19b87b1804: Fix spacing. 10(60 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/19b87b1804db 22:35:31 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1984-g19b87b1804 (34) 22:58:54 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1984-g19b87b1804 23:33:48 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1984-g19b87b1804 (34) 23:55:26 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1984-g19b87b1804