03:31:27 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5208-geafff8c3b6 12:25:42 <12asciiphilia> Are there any special headers or user agents used by sequell or the scoring server logic that I can use to distinguish and handle them separately? http://lazy-life.ddo.jp:8000/morgue/ASCIIPhilia/morgue-ASCIIPhilia-20161029-084656.txt I remember seeing a menu above the morgue on the LLD server before and thought it was interesting. I think it would be cool to support similar functionality on my server as well. 14:35:38 <02Monkooky> what do people think about one-use transporters 14:36:39 <02Monkooky> for use in vaultmaking, and possibly replacing most current transporter vault transporters 14:47:20 <06pleasingfungus> i’d worry about players getting stuck 14:49:56 many of them are one-use anyway (nemelex_the_gamble, transporter vaults) 15:03:54 <09gammafunk> I don't see how one-use transporters would help much of anything 15:06:32 <09gammafunk> The main issue that transporter and runed door vaults have is that they partition off a significant portion of the level behind a challenge that the player may never elect to take on, or might take on much later. There seems to be a majority opinion among devs that having players revisit levels to take on such challenges later isn't the most compelling gameplay. I've always felt that it at least adds some layer of strategizing to 15:06:33 crawl's system of revisitable levels 15:09:10 <09gammafunk> It's true that in many cases, a challenging vault becomes trivial for the player eventually. There's some strategy for the player in making that determination correctly to get access to potentially valuable loot sooner, but again not everyone finds that interesting. And plenty of vaults just don't generate compelling loot in the first place. So you have a bunch of vaults that are arguably not that compelling and they're taking up 15:09:10 space that could be used for more interesting layout 15:10:28 <09gammafunk> Single use transporters seem like they're trying to prevent "transporter dancing", but it's already generally trivial to escape those vaults with teleport in the rare case then the player realizes they've made a mistake 15:11:39 <09gammafunk> So they introduce people potentially getting stuck but don't really solve any problem fundamentally 15:13:43 <09gammafunk> I don't really know what the ideal use of transporters (either re-usable or one-time) looks like. There was talk of making ghosts generate only in a special portal as a way to solve the issue for ghost vaults. Then I guess you could just keep the placement chance sufficiently low for all runed door and transporter vaults that aren't ghost vaults and don't belong in this portal 15:14:17 <09gammafunk> so that they add a bit of that strategic flavor I argued for but are less prominent, so the people who don't like them much will be happier 15:15:28 <09gammafunk> I guess one point for single use transporters is that they emphasize the "this is a challenging vault/place" aspect, which is how we use transporters 15:15:36 <09gammafunk> but nicolae has added some more decorative uses for them as well 15:25:44 <08nicolae> that jerk 😠 15:29:29 <04dracoomega> For what it's worth, I do conceptually like a number of the 'optional strong challenge' teleporter vaults, and I definitely like how the teleport entrance dumps you in the middle of them ('ambush-style' arena encounters present different tactical options than the normal caution one can choose to approach these things with). But at the same time it's true that a lot of ghost vaults get skipped over until they're no longer threatening, 15:29:29 and a substantial number of these arena vaults feel so overtuned for the area they're in they're not even a consideration for so long that I often have plain forgotten about them during the span where they're 'relevant-but-not-trivial'. (And ones that show up in Zot just feel flatly so much not worth it that they feel like they solely steal space from other vaults >.>) 15:30:37 <04dracoomega> I feel there's kind of a narrow sweet spot of teleporter vaults showing up in, say, S-branches sometimes where they can have loot that is tempting enough to want to try for, while not feeling completely out of the question to do so? 15:30:39 <06regret-⸸nde※> The ideal use of transporters as already exists are in Gauntlet, tbh. 15:31:04 <04dracoomega> I mean, Gauntlet is great. But I do like a number of the other vaults also, and can't help but wonder if there's some happier medium somehow 15:31:07 <04dracoomega> Though I'm not sure what it is 15:32:43 <04dracoomega> Like, this may just be me, but I wonder if like "A bit scary, but not overwhelmingly so" could tempt me into doing such a vault 'early' (maybe not immediately, but like... after a floor or two) and too far beyond that point ends up causing them to be deferred so long that they're no longer relevant. Excepting the times where there is some very specific desireable piece of loot in one of them that would cause me to make a note to 15:32:43 go back for it as soon as possible. 15:32:59 <04dracoomega> But that is quite rare 15:34:11 <06regret-⸸nde※> (While I'm mostly stepping back from non-Xom non-Vault work for the foreseeable future, the main big exception I'd have is working on the aforementioned Necropolis portal of where the ghost vaults would go. My objections to transporter arenas and runed door vaults is their prevalence and floor-vault-stealing, both of which would be fine if they were reduced to the point of not recurring multiple times even in earlygame.) 15:34:35 <04dracoomega> Like, I wonder if there could be a sort of 'timer' on it that is inbetween normal portal vaults and 'can access forever' somehow? Not time-based, but like, based on branch exploration somehow? (ie: "This portal will close once you enter an S-branch" or something) 15:35:05 "once you leave the level" seems pretty obvious to me 15:35:23 <09gammafunk> People have tried to propose limits to runed/transporter vaults like that, yeah, but I'm not sure that there's one that's truly viable 15:35:25 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Also, decorative transporters feel fine to me.) 15:35:25 <04dracoomega> Well, that's very close to portal vaults already, in practice 15:35:44 <09gammafunk> leaving the level is something you just have to do sometimes for unrelated reasons, so it's annoying to use that. also shafts exist 15:36:17 <06regret-⸸nde※> "Once you enter this floor, it stays until you leave this branch" feels probably reasonably flexible enough to me? 15:36:22 <04dracoomega> I do think 'entering the next group of branches' tends to be a nicely separate milestone-y thing that's hard to do by accident. (But does have some mess that you'd need to specify multiple branches) 15:36:29 <04dracoomega> Oh, that might make sense 15:36:52 <09gammafunk> maybe branch exit, sure, although do portals count? and you probably need an exception for Temple 15:36:53 <04dracoomega> So early D ones would effectively have to be done before Lair. Late D ones before either Elf or Vaults or something 15:37:33 <04dracoomega> I assume portals can't count here, no 15:37:55 <09gammafunk> Regarding this: > both of which would be fine if they were reduced to the point of not recurring multiple times even in earlygame.) What does that mean, exactly? I assume that's not about allow_dup 15:39:11 <04dracoomega> (Could also use a prompt if the player tries to leave the branch with discovered vaults un-entered, so people don't forget) 15:39:33 <04dracoomega> "The teleporter on D:11 will close forever if you enter here." 15:40:01 <09gammafunk> grumbles about calling transporters teleporters 15:40:31 <06regret-⸸nde※> Getting three or more ghost vaults / transporter vaults by the time one finishes Lair, mostly. 15:41:17 <04dracoomega> Aww, and this was after I stopped myself from calling them 'portals' and I still got the word wrong ^^; 15:41:35 <09gammafunk> It's ok, you're far from the only person who calls them that 15:42:25 <04dracoomega> Passage of Golubriain't 15:43:26 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Calling them portals reminds me of how many find wizlabs enticing because they could be almost anything in a named-and-labelled high-concept fashion and how they're not known until one actually enters them. I wonder if another broad portal type could fit in the non-ghost vaults....) 15:44:00 <09gammafunk> Well, to be clear, I'm definitely including runed door vaults in this discussion 15:44:07 <09gammafunk> I don't view those as fundamnetally different 15:44:20 <09gammafunk> Some of those are like guarded unrand vaults, aren't they? 15:45:39 <09gammafunk> I'm not sure if the wide class of runed door vaults we have could really fit a single portal. For non-ghost transporter vaults, there's just not that many of those, and some of them are even early game instructional type vaults or puzzle vaults. There are only a handful of non-ghost transporter vaults that are pretty generic 15:45:40 <06regret-⸸nde※> "Artifact smithy" or "guarded market showcase" are both reasonably usable broad themes.... 15:48:02 <09gammafunk> But probably the most coherent plan is the Necropolis portal idea for existing ghost vaults and then a combination of lowering difficulty and lowering weight of runed/transporter vaults. Having the vault expire based on branch exiting is maybe nice to have but perhaps not very urgent. Has some technical issues like how do you make the vault "disappear" or become inaccessible etc. 15:49:42 <04dracoomega> I guess when I talk about this, I am making a distinction in my own head between 'sealed vaults that are reasonable to do shortly after first encountered' and ones which aren't. Since I think there is, in practice, a fair bit of difference between those two. Like, yes, one can 'put off' the former ones too, but I think the incentive to doing so isn't all that high? Sometimes the door is just 'take a moment to size up the puzzle or 15:49:43 oddity that is inside here', but it's not otherwise absurdly out of depth. And then other times you find like 8 stone giants in a D:15 vault or moths of wrath and a pile of hydra in early Lair and it's obvious nobody is really expected to do them at that point in time. 15:49:51 <09gammafunk> And perhaps issues with expiration trigger itself, but probably allowing portals and having sufficient prompting is enough. Just feels less absolutely necessary if the vaults are retuned to not have such high difficulty at the top end 15:51:52 <09gammafunk> Well, I was envisioning a plan where those the relevant vaults were modified so that those extremes either didn't exist or were just pretty rare. Due to how vault randomization works and variation in player character strength, sometimes a player just won't be able to do a vault for a few levels, of course 15:53:29 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I do think the extreme out of depth-ness they sometimes have does exacerbate the problem we're talking about 15:54:11 <04dracoomega> ie: "If you can't really handle this for another 5 floors, by that point maybe you don't think about it and don't come back for 12 of them" 15:54:13 <04dracoomega> Or whatnot 15:55:04 <09gammafunk> With the exception of very special (and very rare) FUN vaults like, say, door_vault, or puzzle vaults, stuff like dig_for_victory etc, we'd expect any runed door or transporter vault to be designed around the idea of their being completeable in the next few levels 15:56:28 <04dracoomega> Yeah, probably I wouldn't have a lot of issue with them, if that was the case. (Zot ones are still kind of in an awkward place though. I guess maybe relevant if you're planning to do extended??) 15:58:02 <09gammafunk> Well, the zot ones are either ghost vaults (hence moved to the hypothetical portal) or something like dig_for_victory or its_a_trap, so those are definitely extreme vaults meant to test the extremes of player foolishness, in the style of opening door_vault 15:58:31 <09gammafunk> so you'd really see those zot vaults significantly less with the Necropolist portal existing 16:01:45 <09gammafunk> I guess I'd imagine that after lowering the weight of the always-extreme special vaults and toning down and also lower the weight of the more generic sealed vaults, Zot shouldn't be particularly special. Yes the end of the game is near, but they can have some loot item you might want (equipment can always get better, haste/might/blink for zot:5 etc) and sure there's also extended 16:02:44 <09gammafunk> You're probably noticing pretty extreme vaults like gammafunk_ghost_berserking_beasts which wouldn't even place in Zot any more after this change 16:03:48 <04dracoomega> It's possible, yeah. (I am bad at vault names >.>) 16:05:08 <09gammafunk> quite simply kill the moth of wrath in one or two turns after entereing and mopping up the rest is easy, what could go wrong? 16:05:16 <04dracoomega> And yes, I guess it's less 'it's the end of the game' and more looking at vaults and and being like "Who in their right mind would ever opt to do this?" 16:05:34 <04dracoomega> (And this is from someone who full-clears the rest of Zot about 99% of the time) 16:06:03 <09gammafunk> !lg * recent zot map!~~hall_of_Zot map!= s=map 16:06:04 <04dracoomega> I've definitely had a few of "I am probably more scared of this than I am of the orb vault itself" ^^; 16:06:05 <04Cerebot> 551 games for * (recent zot map!~~hall_of_Zot map!=): 29x grunt_deathspiral_small, 19x hangedman_zot_vaults_quadrants, 18x ebering_greatest_show_in_zot, 17x evilmike_ambush; evilmike_ambush_inner_basic, 15x gammafunk_sealed_library, 13x ebering_klown_carousel, 13x grunt_megastairs_1, 13x gammafunk_dig_for_victory, 12x grunt_zot_stairs_mandelzot, 10x regret_index_zot_pan_timeshare, 10x grunt_megas... 16:06:41 <09gammafunk> I guess ghost vault rarity means the crazier ghost vaults just don't get as many opportunities 16:06:53 <09gammafunk> or maybe players are just really scared of what they see and don't enter 16:07:11 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> there was a lot of discussion that I skimmed over but "this transporter disappears if you leave the branch" really really doesn't work given stashing 16:07:39 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> "this transporter disappears if you enter any new branch" could work 16:08:05 <09gammafunk> hrm, yeah 16:08:21 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (non-portal branch, presumably) 16:08:34 <09gammafunk> I mean, honestly, I'd want this to apply to runed door vaults, not just transporters 16:08:48 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I don't know if it would really be a big improvement anyway 16:08:54 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> would lead to some feel-bads 16:09:22 <09gammafunk> yeah, I'm kind of skeptical that it's necessary at all if we follow through with the ghost portal and vault rebalancing/reweighting plans 16:11:17 <04dracoomega> Yeah, as I said, with these other adjustments, probably most of the parts of this that felt like awkward design would feel much less-so 16:12:31 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> anyway I don't have real objections myself with the current status of ghost/transporter vaults aside from those transporter vaults that let players shaft/teleport into them 16:14:40 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> but just thought I'd note that "I should move a bunch of stashed items into a new branch/level to leave them on the floor in case I want them later" is something we want to avoid 16:19:34 <04dracoomega> A very fair point (that I hadn't thought about at the time) 17:21:53 New branch created: pull/3926 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3926 17:21:53 03Aliscans02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3926 * 0.32-a0-1741-ge7858dc7ca: Don't say that an undead kraken has died. 10(39 minutes ago, 1 file, 8+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e7858dc7cae5 17:24:22 <09gammafunk> To be perfectly honest, an undead kraken has died. It died when it became undead. 17:34:45 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> surely it died before it became undead 17:58:02 <09gammafunk> There's 0 aut difference between those events, so they happened at the same time as far as I'm concerned 18:55:02 03regret-index02 07* 0.32-a0-1741-g0268064b0c: Add "any hex wand" shorthand 10(6 hours ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0268064b0c21 18:55:02 03regret-index02 07* 0.32-a0-1742-gb72f62450a: Give ?/b a tile for Arena 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b72f62450a18 18:55:02 03regret-index02 07* 0.32-a0-1743-ga06d8ee8d1: Adjust each Serpent of Hell 10(3 hours ago, 4 files, 9+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a06d8ee8d1c2 18:55:02 03regret-index02 07* 0.32-a0-1744-g071218b31a: Make tension track more statuses from both players and monsters 10(53 seconds ago, 1 file, 53+ 24-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/071218b31a7d 19:00:30 <09gammafunk> !scorepage dilly 19:00:30 <04Cerebot> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/teachthemimnotnoob 19:00:39 <09gammafunk> sigh 19:02:05 <09gammafunk> @asciiphilia OK, I've added http urls to CAO scoring and it's fetched those (along with games from CDI) and is doing an update of player pages as I write this. Dilly's page shows the CNC games, so it appears everything is working. 19:08:48 <09gammafunk> @asciiphilia If all looks right for CAO scoring, I will probably make a "server updates" on crawl.develz.org tomorrow with information on CNC, the new host/admin of CXC, and the fact that CDI games are also finally in CAO scoring. If there's anything special you'd like me to say in that post about CNC, please let me know. Otherwise I'll just mention that it imported the user DB from CPO from June and that you have further 19:08:49 instructions, that you have the DWEM module, and that you have a server discord. 20:43:51 03nicolae02 07* 0.32-a0-1745-gbcf935ffba: Add a quote for Magic Dart 10(67 seconds ago, 1 file, 15+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bcf935ffbaa0 21:04:48 brascii (L2 MiBe) ASSERT(valid_cursor_pos(pos.x, pos.y, region)) in 'libutil.cc' at line 407 failed. (invalid cursor position -36,8 in region 2, should be 1,8 in region 3) (D:1) 22:35:37 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1745-gbcf935ffba (34) 22:59:03 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1745-gbcf935ffba 23:13:54 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1745-gbcf935ffba (34) 23:25:59 <02Monkooky> This was the thought re: replacing transporter vaults the more general thought was motivated by wanting to do gauntlet-style minivaults, in particular 'pick one of three rewards' type deals 23:26:45 <02Monkooky> and you could lua those up but it seems much harder to effectively communicate if you can't more generally learn about one-shot transporters 23:34:46 <06regret-⸸nde※> One-shot transporters could be their own feature type, though I'm not greatly convinced they should be versus just not actually providing a transporter into the other room. Pick-three is reasonably accomplishable with glass and pressure plates without needing any of this. 23:39:28 <06regret-⸸nde※> (The vaults reward general standards generally don't provide noticeable or themed rewards any consistently enough to be very enticing to try to replicate the more standard roguelike-hybrid forms of "what if we gave you a pick of three conspicuous and potent boosts" beyond what Gauntlet already mostly fulfills or Troves and Bazaars working as naturally as they should. I'd also be concerned about feeding the overall power-spiral 23:39:29 after that point, regardlessly. Possibly we could do with trove entrances as rewards in some vaults, through some subvaulting tricks, and bazaars could be improved in general through subvaulting custom shops as I... presume?... nicolae has been looking at.) 23:42:25 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1746-gea9f75d149: Add another colour to the database. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ea9f75d14955 23:55:30 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1745-gbcf935ffba