00:05:16 03Isaac Clancy02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3877 * 0.32-a0-1484-g4342d8047b: Allow manifold assault to be cast when it would warn 10(5 days ago, 4 files, 90+ 34-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4342d8047ba0 03:32:02 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5208-geafff8c3b6 05:07:40 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1536-g4ceacca (34) 07:22:05 03RypoFalem02 {dolorous} 07* 0.32-a0-1537-g5e8508d677: Update search help text for shops (PJRamaglia) 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5e8508d677d8 07:30:38 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1538-ge3f4e31a3f: Reflavour Terence. 10(4 days ago, 3 files, 38+ 20-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e3f4e31a3faf 08:28:18 New branch created: pull/3886 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3886 08:28:18 03fbwer02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3886 * 0.32-a0-1539-gf3f1c4e7de: display quiet 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f3f1c4e7debd 09:58:22 <04dracoomega> So, the last few days I've been working on a couple of Necromancer starter spell adjustments (in response to feedback and discussion in #dcss) that I think are almost ready to try out in trunk now. And in the process, ended up staring hard at Cigotuvi's Dreadful Rot for a while (since one of what I was working on was a new level 2 necro spell that feels like it might be a more useful part of Hedge Wizard's kit than CDR currently is). 09:58:22 And apparently have so many words to say about it that I have to embed a text file again >.> 09:58:30 <04dracoomega> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1255205491403915366/message.txt?ex=667c48b5&is=667af735&hm=fe6615b18e0992e3cbc9d2cced94d3aa1ef78a893bf20b75a395a5105ad3b69a& 09:59:03 <04dracoomega> (I don't have a specific conclusion here, but would welcome other people's thoughts when anyone has time) 10:06:48 <06pleasingfungus> aiii 10:06:58 <06pleasingfungus> i clicked the 'expand' button and it shot off the top of the screen 10:07:59 <06pleasingfungus> anyway removing the thing where enemies refuse to step in miasma seems fine 10:08:16 <06pleasingfungus> simplifying, removing secret behaviors that players will have no idea about, etc 10:08:33 <06pleasingfungus> can also buff miasma vs monsters if we want; don't think the changes are exclusive 10:09:16 <04dracoomega> On a phone? ^^; 10:09:29 <04dracoomega> (Does that make it worse than putting that many words straight in the channel, I wonder? :P) 10:09:57 <06pleasingfungus> on my desktop! 10:10:18 <06pleasingfungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1255208463525609512/image.png?ex=667c4b7a&is=667af9fa&hm=252f43e700023a269c0c88a8fb0a487e3efe865330ce158feac8fca31550ff6e& 10:10:34 <06pleasingfungus> (admittedly on my smaller secondary monitor) 10:12:05 <04dracoomega> Huh. It just opens politely below where I clicked, without scrolling or anything, I my end 10:12:31 <04dracoomega> Inconsistent client behavior, I wonder? ^^; 10:12:39 <06pleasingfungus> in discord?! impossible 10:17:17 meanwhile, on IRC it forwards it to the browser, which downloads it instead of rendering it 😞 10:21:03 <04dracoomega> Possibly still better than flooding the channel on IRC? (That is actually the reason I'd used that a couple times instead of just pasting several large messages) 10:23:35 <06pleasingfungus> oh for sure it’s better yes 10:23:46 <06pleasingfungus> just bemused by total text size 10:33:59 having managed a matrix bot that insisted on dumping that kind of thing straight into IRC, absolutely yes 10:34:11 (I switched bridges, it now pastebins) 10:39:46 <04dracoomega> (I know CDR is your work, PF, so I didn't want to just summarily replace it with anything without talking about it. And it's not like I have another miasma spell design I'm sold on yet; yesterday's efforts don't make the cut, that's for sure :P) Monsters eventually being willing to walk into miasma clouds would make the current spell design quite a lot more useful later in the game, amusingly enough. By the time you're meleeing 10:39:47 stronger things, you can drop a cloud and back up to fight them in it, which is likely pretty useful. Not sure what I think about that. 10:40:04 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1539-g3259166692: Make simple god and monster msgs apostrophise. 10(2 hours ago, 26 files, 210+ 149-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/325916669285 10:40:53 <06dolorous_84348> And with that, I am officially tired of apostrophes, possessives, and related stuff. 10:41:42 <06dolorous_84348> But at least nearly everything using "'s" now uses apostrophise() now, aside from some very specific and breakable string replacements. 10:43:19 <06dolorous_84348> It was either this, or replace simple_god_message() and simple_monster_message() with much more specific mprf() calls. 10:52:52 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1540-gbe422a758e: Don't apostrophise grunting crab melee attacks. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/be422a758e6d 10:53:27 <06dolorous_84348> Had to fix one error in it due to one of those string replacements (with a commit message that seems like... a rare sentence). 10:57:16 <06pleasingfungus> eh, i'm not that wedded to the design. i liked the mummy ability more. 😛 that is, don't worry about cdr on my account. 10:59:01 <04dracoomega> Okay, sure. (...also, what mummy ability?) 10:59:12 <08nicolae> oh. you know. that mummy ability. 10:59:51 <04dracoomega> Is this something they gained briefly and lost again before I realized they had it? ^^; 11:05:28 <06pleasingfungus> before we gvae mummies innate faith, i pitched an innate mummy ability that was basically cdr 11:05:41 <06pleasingfungus> i had a branch, iirc. it was cool 11:05:54 <06pleasingfungus> but others didn't appreciate my vision... 11:05:59 <08nicolae> now they'll all pay 11:07:19 <08nicolae> choose a 3x3 zone in los. you and all monsters in the 3x3 grid get a spot of miasma on 'em. if you position it right even if a few of them run away there'll be a few who get stuck in the miasma for a few turns and get hella poisoned and sick 11:07:49 <06pleasingfungus> can't find the branch; did find https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/upgrade-proprioception, which you were asking about the other day 11:08:51 <06pleasingfungus> ooh, also rediscovered https://github.com/crawl/crawl/compare/master...taunt (2016) 11:09:12 <08nicolae> corpseplosion. necro spell. target one of your own walking dead and it explodes into miasma 11:09:50 <08nicolae> blightblink. tele/necro. you do a blinkbolt but instead of electricity you leave a trail of miasma 11:09:55 <04dracoomega> Tangential to any of this, I was musing the other day as I worked on necromancer stuff and Index does some Xom adjustments (and of course, after the various god work I've done) that as more 'weaker' options and starts get brought up to a more reasonable baseline, whether it would make sense to have a background that was deliberately 'bad' in a sort of fun-challenge way rather than just 'you suck at everything' way. Like, explicitly 11:09:55 designed to be a harder option. (Delver is maybe sort of that, and I do love Delver a lot actually. I'm not actually convinced it's weaker than many other melee starts, though 😛 But even if it isn't, that kind of thing, but different somehow) 11:10:18 <04dracoomega> Of course, figuring out how is the tricky part 😛 11:10:20 <08nicolae> i have a number of Stupid Background Ideas 11:11:29 <04dracoomega> Ha. Shadowslip ended up being a decent bit like that, I guess (even if the shadow isn't a great tank on the whole) 11:11:45 <08nicolae> :tank: 11:11:49 <04dracoomega> A very short-term version of the same sort of idea 11:12:03 <06pleasingfungus> a 'weaker background' ('deprived?') has come up a few times. i'm not sure how exciting or distinctive it'd feel in practice. gammafunk (and others) have argued for adding explicit difficulty options of some kind, as a modifier to our existing species/bg choice. 11:12:04 <06dolorous_84348> You could have characters in this challenging background armed with the original knife (did as much as 4 damage!), before it was consistently replaced with the dagger, from back in the days when you needed to chop up corpses for food. But that's probably too sadistic. 11:12:11 <06pleasingfungus> @??club 11:12:12 <04Cerebot> Base accuracy: +3 Base damage: 5 Base attack delay: 1.3 | This weapon's minimum attack delay (0.6) is reached at skill level 14. | This weapon falls into the 'Maces & Flails' category. It is a one-handed weapon. 11:12:14 <06pleasingfungus> ideal 11:12:53 <04dracoomega> Yeah, it's easy to imagine "You just start bad at things" but that's not really so fun on its own, I think. You want to be bad-in-practice but still feel like you have a kit that creates novel situations somehow 11:13:48 <06pleasingfungus> perhaps wanderer is a closer comparison point 11:13:49 <08nicolae> Curator: above ground, an expert in trinkets and doohickeys, coming into the dungeon to expand their collection: starts with many basic consumables/jewellery pre-IDed, and maybe one or two cool potions/scrolls/rings/etc. but doesn't have a lot of actual combat experience so their skills aren't great 11:14:00 <06pleasingfungus> some of the weirder wanderer starts 11:14:32 <06pleasingfungus> playing with item knowledge is interesting; would be fun to experiment with at some point 11:14:57 <08nicolae> Sorcerer's Apprentice: starts with a library of level 7-9 spells but no low-level starting ones 11:15:21 <04dracoomega> Wow, their teacher had terrible pedagogy 11:15:45 <08nicolae> after the broom incident they just grabbed the biggest book they could find and ran 11:15:51 <04dracoomega> (There's the tempting thematic concept of 'starts with god wrath' is only gods had wrath that was reasonable at the start of the game ^^; ) 11:16:14 <04dracoomega> Ash wrath kind of maybe doesn't immediately kill you 11:16:21 <04dracoomega> But possibly feels miserable 11:16:39 <08nicolae> lmao, there we go, there's an idea: you're on the run from a powerful sorcerer, and he keeps following you through the dungeon, it's like the no-backtracking conduct but with a little more wiggle room 11:16:51 <08nicolae> although i guess there's still branch ends 11:17:52 <06dolorous_84348> What if you start with Hep wrath? No damage, but no exp gain for awhile. (Although if you drink a potion of experience, it would lessen Hep's wrath; I found that while doing the apostrophe stuff, and I didn't know it was there before.) 11:18:07 <04dracoomega> I remember some brief conversation a while back about "What zealot backgrounds would actually make earlygame play more interesting" and am tempted by a challenge character that starts with a handful of Nemelex cards (except for the part where that biases you to Nemelex for the rest of the game also. I mean, Nem is one of my favorite gods, but this does somewhat narrow what players can do with the BG) 11:18:30 <08nicolae> simply invent a god who exists entirely to be pissed off at the player 11:18:38 <08nicolae> like less of a presence than even ignis 11:19:20 <04dracoomega> I think no xp gain is flatly worse than -4 apts, and possibly less interestingly so (Ash does other things). Both are pretty heft really early, though, unless you start with a bunch of stuff to compensate (which one could, I guess!) 11:19:59 <06dolorous_84348> Okay. Trying to figure out the balance between challenging and frustrating to the point of making people quit. 11:20:09 <04dracoomega> Yeah. I mean, I don't know the answer to that, either! 11:20:45 <04dracoomega> I think I do like the basic idea of "Starts weak, has to use its moderately-unique toolkit to scrape by the early parts of the game, and then gets some sort of 'reward' for managing to do so". Which I guess could also describe Delver. But, y'know, different 😛 11:20:46 <08nicolae> super-delver. they start a higher level with real good equipment. in pan. 11:21:34 <06dolorous_84348> As for Nemelex worshippers, there was that Jester background. (Now that blinding works on players, the cream pies would be useful in monsters' hands as well. Although that seems to fit a new type of monster more than a player background.) 11:21:51 <08nicolae> bring back all the classic joke backgrounds 11:21:56 <04dracoomega> Well, staring with Xom wrath is a little like starting with Xom, which one can already do 😛 11:22:28 <04dracoomega> (Nem cards are great and interesting early consumables, though) 11:23:48 <04dracoomega> Suddenly imagining, instead of a specific god wrath, starting with a cursed item affixed to the player, which had some specifically-curated downside. And it would shatter once you reached [someplace] or some xl. 11:24:02 <04dracoomega> So that we could be quite specific about what ways we wanted it to be bad 11:24:23 <04dracoomega> (Possibly decent flavor about trying to dive into the dungeon to free yourself from this terrible curse, also) 11:24:29 <08nicolae> background that starts with a selection of badmuts. 11:24:52 <06dolorous_84348> Depending on what the cursed thing is, it almost sounds like you're an escaped convict trying to remove it from yourself. 11:25:05 <04dracoomega> Hey, curses don't always land on bad people 😛 11:25:10 <06dolorous_84348> Indeed 🙂 11:25:56 <06dolorous_84348> Far too many curses land on people who don't deserve them, while far too few land on people who do deserve them. 11:26:01 <04dracoomega> There is technically no equipment slot which every species has, but probably an acursed coglin can cheat and be allowed this terrible amulet 11:26:17 <04dracoomega> Since the player can never interact with it anyway 11:26:42 <08nicolae> there's a few sprint-only unrands that have their base type changed based on species 11:26:50 <04dracoomega> (They get a minor upside in that it doesn't conflict with anything they could find on the floor!) 11:26:52 <08nicolae> you could probably do that for the Cursed Dipshit background 11:27:58 <04dracoomega> Crawl community has me trained to check !classwords and !specieswords for every possibility that crosses my mind 😛 11:28:45 <04dracoomega> This is a very silly guiding principle, but can be a tiebreaker between reasonable options ^^; 11:29:05 <08nicolae> or, worst case scenario, the Cursed Dipshit just gets to pick from a list of possible items 11:29:25 <04dracoomega> Feels like there's some flavor mismatch of picking which terrible cursed thing you accidentally put on yourself 11:29:26 <06dolorous_84348> So avoid the possibility of Dipshit Chaos Knight, then? 11:30:17 <08nicolae> well, maybe, but it's not like your character gets to "choose" their species, either 11:30:31 <04dracoomega> Hmm, fair 11:32:49 <04dracoomega> Imagining merging the two bits of 'cursed item that you have to take off' and 'weak but has Nemelex cards' and thinking of the whole thing as some sort of very unwise bet the character took. You can use these cards as long as the amulet is on you, but not worship any other gods. Once you break and remove it, you lose Nemelex powers without wrath. You 'won' the gamble; Nemelex is satisfied. (There might be more things going on here 11:32:49 than necessary. Still just spitballing thoughts) 11:33:08 <04dracoomega> Naga Gambler has an amusing abbreviation 11:33:43 <06dolorous_84348> Do you get some kind of special message if you choose to worship Nemelex after breaking the amulet? 11:33:56 <04dracoomega> I mean, that part's easy 😛 11:34:06 <04dracoomega> So sure 11:34:08 <08nicolae> Welcome back, mortal! Double or nothing? 11:34:18 <06dolorous_84348> Exactly! 11:36:22 lmao, there we go, there's an idea: you're on the run from a powerful sorcerer, and he keeps following you through the dungeon, it's like the no-backtracking conduct but with a little more wiggle room 11:36:27 isn't that the zot clock? 11:36:46 <08nicolae> yes but the zot clock also doesn't hang out on floors you've already been to 11:36:52 <08nicolae> i mean, it does, but it's not Right There 11:37:02 <04dracoomega> fr: your teacher is a living grandfather clock 11:37:15 <04dracoomega> And it is very displeased with you 11:37:15 <02Monkooky> I was thinkin that an early game unique with a reward of potion IDing would be neat 11:38:49 <06pleasingfungus> into it 11:40:46 <04dracoomega> Like, instantly ID some potions (whether you have them or not) after beating them? A 'guidebook to potions' that they drop or somesuch? 11:44:39 <04dracoomega> Cute concept 11:50:03 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I don't think "hard early game" is a very interesting pitch for a background personally 11:50:15 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> can already make things harder for yourself by ill-fitting combos 11:52:49 <08nicolae> background that starts at level 27 but with level 1 skills and inventory. 11:53:52 <12ebering> So much how 11:54:05 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> it's also just sort of hard to make a background meaningfully bad past D:2 or so without really serious hackery (god wrath etc) and I think CK has that covered really 11:57:10 fr: bring back jesters (nemelex + xom wrath!) 11:58:07 <04dracoomega> (I think Xom wrath in particular is too similar to just worshipping Xom for a permanent background) 12:02:55 <04dracoomega> I don't know that 'cursed item you're stuck with for a while' counts as serious hackery, personally, and it's possible to make it do whatever we'd want it to do (and describe the effects well on the item itself). I think there's design room for challenges that could feel collectively interesting between the combination of that and whatever their kit was as a whole. Though it's an interesting point how 'hard earlygame' is more 12:02:56 readily achievable via actively bad combos already (though again: the point wasn't to just bad hard/bad but ideally an interestingly different way of being so) and does make me think of something that could make a harder midgame (where starting combo differences otherwise have evened out a little). Badmut curses or that alluded pursuer, or other things that are part of your start, but don't really come into play until later on. 12:10:49 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> think that's outside the scope of backgrounds 12:10:53 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> they are very intentionally NOT relevant later on 12:11:11 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> don't see any reason to throw that aside 12:12:05 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> there are also plenty of optional challenges later on, including one which we literally just added (gems) 12:14:39 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I think crawl's design of "species are relevant all game, backgrounds aren't relevant after early game" is much better than the mishmash that other games often have 12:17:30 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> re: cursed item that drops off at some point, I guess I'd need to see a concrete proposal? I think it would need to be super unique to justify its own existence 12:19:13 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> and have some reason why it doesn't work better as a species or god 12:19:52 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I have no objections to backgrounds with interesting early-game gameplay (delver and wanderer are my favorite backgrounds!) but I don't really know what you have in mind 12:21:03 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> and if the idea is to compensate by giving consumables of some sort, I feel like artificer already does a fine job of that 12:26:21 <02Monkooky> a cursed weapon would let you do things similar to artificer without the 'oh found an elec dagger time for a free win' experience 12:26:52 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I mean an elec dagger is hardly a free win for the vast majority of players 😛 12:27:04 <04dracoomega> I'm not sure I fully agree that it's bad if any backgrounds have lingering consequences. I realize that most deliberately don't (which is good). Not sure I think it's bad if explicitly special ones do - especially if those can be sated or seen upfront from the start (regardless of the long-term of their impact). This is subjective, and I'm only just mulling over my own feelings here. Making something with such a conduct a species is 12:27:04 obviously a valid possibility. "Why a BG instead of a species" is of course so that you can have species combinatorics on top of that. (Which I guess could also be a god, sure.) When you say that you don't really know what I have in mind, well I don't really know what I have in mind, beyond the very basic 'feel' of the idea - part of why I've just been spitballing out loud here. 12:27:07 <04dracoomega> It's true that gems are a challenge conduct of a sort, though I think that they ask you to play the game in a very different way than normal, rather than 'a generally harder version of a normal way to play the game'. Which doesn't make them bad, but I do think makes them a very different sort of thing (and turncount runs generally have a relatively narrow slice of players interested in them). (There's also some arguably awkward 12:27:08 stuff about them being encounterable in games where players aren't interested in that challenge, which is why there were various options added to suppress parts of that. That's not to say that one couldn't stick these 'later-game challenge modifiers' in-game in some other way where they showed up later for the player to opt into, but I do have some concerns about their constant presence for people who weren't originally signing up for that thing, if 12:27:08 that makes sense?) 12:27:12 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> also I think people enjoy being able to use good loot they find 12:28:14 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I mean, I guess I'd just like a better argument for scrapping a core defining aspect of backgrounds 😛 12:28:19 <04dracoomega> Artificer does do a fine job of its thing and is a fun and distinct BG. I don't think that means there isn't room for other takes on this, in theory. 12:28:40 <04dracoomega> (...certainly fighter and gladiator are a lot more alike than artificer and whatever else this might be) 12:29:14 <02Monkooky> while I absolutely agree with this in general; I think that in the context of 'challenge background' there's a bit of 'well you knew what you were signing up for' there 12:29:20 <04dracoomega> Like, I guess there's a bunch of not-necessarily-obligated-to-be-connected things being talked around here. 12:29:41 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> and in theory I'm not opposed to other takes on artificer! 12:30:32 <04dracoomega> 'BG that is deliberately harder (in either the long or short-term)' 'BG that is interestingly distinct in the earlygame in some way' 'Challenge conduct that has longer-term effects (however one opts into this)' 'A different take on consumable use as an earlygame kit' and so forth 12:30:42 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> fair enough, but I still don't find "you can't make use of lucky early weapon finds" to be a very positive aspect of a pitch for something 12:30:50 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> if it has to happen to make something else work, sure 12:31:46 <04dracoomega> (I arbitrarily said amulet for that one both because of the traditional flavor connections and also because run-defining earlygame amulets tend to be less common than several other slots. Certainly could be something else.) 12:32:28 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> yeah, I sort of assumed a jewellery slot or even not using a slot at all 12:32:33 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> when you mentioned a cursed item 12:33:14 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> seems reasonable enough as an implementation detail regardless 12:33:22 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> but tells me absolutely nothing about the intent of what the cursed item would do 😛 12:34:40 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> to be clear, when I originally said "really serious hackery" I meant in terms of functionality, not implementation 12:35:06 <04dracoomega> This is not unreasonable. And there was talk PF alluded to earlier about run modifiers outside of starting combo selection that could include something like this. Funny thing is, while I do see your point, and one could use a 'supermodifier' of some sort for purposes like this, I am likewise reluctant to introduce an extra layer for wierder starts/midgames when we already have a defined system for picking and recording starting 12:35:07 choices. ^^; 12:35:33 <04dracoomega> I mean, I don't know! This isn't a proposal. This is brainstorming ^^; 12:35:34 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> tbh this is the first I've ever heard of any desire for extra run modifiers 12:35:49 <04dracoomega> (I hadn't heard of it either, for what it's worth. But I wasn't here for a lot of years) 12:35:54 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I'm not convinced it's something players actually want in any quantity? 12:36:05 <04dracoomega> So it seemed plausible there was a bunch of talk I wasn't aware of 12:36:11 <06pleasingfungus> when delver was added, some people (iirc gammafunk+) wished that it was a mutator applied on top of class + bg choice, instead of being a bg in itself 12:36:41 <06pleasingfungus> er, class + sp 12:36:52 <06pleasingfungus> the vision is some world in which you could toggle on a bunch of other options in addition to choosing your combo, i guess 12:37:10 <04dracoomega> Delving Naga Fire Elementalist, Accursed Octopode Gladiator, or whatever I guess 12:37:31 <06pleasingfungus> or something. idk if they'd be part of the names or scored or w/e 12:37:41 funnily enough, I was actually thinking along those lines for a hypothetical return of jesters 12:37:48 <04dracoomega> (Of course, delver as a BG is great fun and distinct on its own. Though I can see the logic in that delver feels like more of a change to initial mode of play than BGs usually are) 12:37:52 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> think delver on other backgrounds just has worse gameplay tbh 12:38:03 (not that I'm actually pushing for it, just my brain following its tortuous paths) 12:38:05 <06pleasingfungus> yeah, there are real issues with setting up a good start 12:38:13 <06pleasingfungus> if delver was a mutator or w/e 12:38:22 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like you can give extra consumables and stealth skill on anyone but eh 12:38:47 <06pleasingfungus> my issue with delver is that it tends to be sort of a genericish melee start after The Fun Bit, but not clear that alternatives are better 12:38:54 <06pleasingfungus> and generic crawl melee is fun 12:39:58 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I agree that is like... mildly unfortunate? It might have more to do with how much floor loot has to line up to make spell pivots reasonable at that point in the game than it has to do with Delver itself, though 12:40:36 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> honestly I have not liked this type of run modifier on other roguelikes I've played with them 12:40:39 <04dracoomega> It's usually net-negative to drop melee training for early spells unless you either find it super early or do more of a midgame pivot 12:40:43 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1541-gbc0a3b031a: Add another Donald Dithmenos line. 10(69 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bc0a3b031a7b 12:40:55 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I'm sure it can be done well but I don't think it's easy 12:40:57 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Clearly need to sneak in a magic-focused talisman after the current projects?...) 12:41:06 <04dracoomega> (When I did greaterdelver, I did end up doing spell pivots on a couple species, but usually the very lopsided ones, like deep elf) 12:41:26 <06pleasingfungus> a lot of the work of game design is in presenting players with interesting and exciting scenarios. giving players a ton of knobs to fiddle with can make it impossible to tell what the 'intended' experience is, or what's good 12:41:51 <06pleasingfungus> this is also part of the problem with the arguably smaller proposal of 'difficulty levels' 12:42:52 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I'm... at least reflexively iffy on that. Designing a game from the ground up, I'd probably include that, but I'm not sure what I think about it in Crawl at this point. 12:42:59 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> the main motivation I can see for explicit difficulty levels is if we want to have a mode that is easier than current crawl 12:43:17 <06regret-⸸nde※> (How long does it take for abandoning Xom on D:1 to actually be cleared off, for the record?) 12:43:19 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> no real opinion on that 12:43:34 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> iirc xom wrath is about 5 XLs on average 12:43:46 <04dracoomega> And yes, having something be a background (or species or whatever among the current sort of starting options) does allow a certain degree of 'curation' to the experience that is likely useful 12:44:06 <06regret-⸸nde※> ...That is less than I expected. Huh. 12:44:08 <04dracoomega> Compared to 'modifier that can go on anything at all' 12:48:39 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> really what I'd prefer instead of anything involving adding modifiers or special super-difficult background or whatever is to display a bunch of details at the end of every game 12:48:50 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> instead of the bare minimum that we currently do 12:50:38 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> has various perks I think but one is that we can list/track various optional challenges in-game 12:51:58 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> add a line to the win screen if the player entered zig saying how many levels they completed, add a line if they never abandoned xom as a CK, add a line for orbrun tomb, etc 12:52:51 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (and on a more basic level, list uniques killed and unrands found, give the number of levels visited, etc) 12:56:35 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> instead of reducing the game end to 3-4 numbers (fewer for a death) and kicking people out 14:27:15 <06pleasingfungus> sure, into it 15:37:44 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-1541-gbc0a3b031a (34) 16:02:58 <09gammafunk> https://crawl.dcss.io/saves/robotcentaur-crawl-git-bc0a3b031a-240635-2253.tar.bz2 16:03:50 <09gammafunk> This user reports: > gammafunk: what exactly happened? You loaded the game, and you had bribe active, and rested...and then? The game crashed or you were sent to lobby? > gammafunk: or you just closed the tab yourself and tried to resume? > robotcentaur: Reloaded. Bribe active. Worked killing stuff. Then I did an autosearch "O". No one follwed. I rested. Game locked. 16:04:18 <09gammafunk> I did see webtiles and at least one other process at high cpu for a bit 16:04:28 <09gammafunk> and webtiles log showed this: https://dpaste.org/8JZyA 16:05:06 <09gammafunk> didn't realize that had IPs, maybe I can edit it down 16:05:52 <09gammafunk> aha 16:06:32 <09gammafunk> > 2024-06-25 22:35:59,573 INFO: #8877 User robotcentaur logging in (via token). > 2024-06-25 22:36:09,064 INFO: #8829 P16097 Killing crawl process after SIGHUP did nothing. > 2024-06-25 22:36:09,065 INFO: #8829 P16097 ERR: Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted > 2024-06-25 22:36:09,065 INFO: #8829 P16097 ERR: We crashed! This is likely due to a bug in Crawl. > 2024-06-25 22:36:09,065 INFO: #8829 P16097 ERR: Please submit a bug 16:06:33 report to: > 2024-06-25 22:36:09,065 INFO: #8829 P16097 ERR: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/issues > 2024-06-25 22:36:09,065 INFO: #8829 P16097 ERR: and include at least: > 2024-06-25 22:36:09,066 INFO: #8829 P16097 ERR: - The crash report: /dgldir/morgue/robotcentaur/crash-robotcentaur-20240625-223609.txt > 2024-06-25 22:36:09,066 INFO: #8829 P16097 ERR: - Your save file: /crawl-master/crawl-git-bc0a3b031a/saves/robotcentaur.cs > 2024-06-25 16:06:33 22:36:09,066 INFO: #8829 P16097 ERR: - Information about your computer and game version: Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup 0.32-a0-1541-gbc0a3b031a (Console/Webtiles) > 2024-06-25 22:36:09,066 INFO: #8829 P16097 ERR: - A description of what you were doing when this crash occurred. > 2024-06-25 22:36:09,581 INFO: #8877 P16192 Purging stale lock at /dgldir/inprogress/crawl-git/robotcentaur:2024-06-25.21:03:38.ttyrec, pid 1007674. 16:07:14 <09gammafunk> https://crawl.dcss.io/crawl/morgue/robotcentaur/crash-robotcentaur-20240625-224426.txt 16:07:41 <09gammafunk> looks like first crash was https://crawl.dcss.io/crawl/morgue/robotcentaur/crash-robotcentaur-20240625-223609.txt 16:12:05 <09gammafunk> that first crash log is strangely minimal. it only prints the stack frames and gdb backtrace 16:14:42 <04dracoomega> The second crash looks like something is going on in mons_end_withdraw_order but that doesn't do anything complicated or crashy that I can see? 16:15:05 <04dracoomega> I don't think you can cause problems by trying to erase a prop that doesn't exist, can you? I thought that just did nothing. 16:34:20 <09gammafunk> I think it's possible that crawl was stuck inside of a high cpu utilization (probably infinite) loop, and that the process was killed 16:34:40 <09gammafunk> it may have been that the session timed out and webtiles tried to kill it with sighup 16:34:50 <09gammafunk> not 100% sure of this though 16:37:27 <04dracoomega> Do you mean an infinite loop due to some other part of the process, or specifically in that function? 16:43:42 <09gammafunk> presumably due to something going on in some other part of the process (that created the infinite loop condition), and the kill simply happened in that function 16:46:33 <09gammafunk> hrm, both crashes do show frames involving that function though 16:46:58 <09gammafunk> I'm a bit confuse how they reference what appears to the be the coord_def equality operator (coord-def.h:54) 16:49:31 <09gammafunk> further info just reported from the player to repro the crash: > Repro more. Its the Kraken tentacles. The tentacles attack. I issue a command (T) and tell troops to (R) retreat. They start to retreat. At the new location a few disappear. And then the game locks. 16:50:01 <04dracoomega> A few disappear? 16:50:15 <09gammafunk> I presume they leave los? 16:50:49 <09gammafunk> since a retreat is ordered 16:51:14 <09gammafunk> apparently this behaviour is reproducible from the kraken if one issues that retreat order 16:51:19 <04dracoomega> I guess these are bribed enemies, huh? 16:51:23 <09gammafunk> right 16:51:55 <04dracoomega> I mean, buggy behavior involving a kraken would not surprise me, but still not sure what this function is doing 16:52:21 <09gammafunk> it does jive with the crash log reporting that the last line of the mons_end_withdraw_order function 16:52:53 <09gammafunk> which is deleting a key related to "blocked deadline" which has something to do with monster movement and retreating 16:58:57 <04dracoomega> Er, poorly phrased. I know what this function is doing. I wrote it. It's more like, I don't see how deleting a prop can hang. 16:59:42 <04dracoomega> I don't know if this means I am incorrect about erasing a non-existant prop always being safe or if there is something else afoot 17:02:44 <09gammafunk> yeah I was more assume the lack of existence of this key is more the problem; it's being removed which immediately leads to its recreation via a later codepath and the cycle continues, etc. Maybe that's not plausible though. 17:05:21 <09gammafunk> @dracoomega some final details from robotcentaur here https://discord.com/channels/205277826788622337/205316046230388737/1255308759400710237 If you have any follow up questions, please feel free to ask them 17:06:16 <09gammafunk> their latest message describes that it may not be kraken-related, sounds like it could specifically be tied to bribed satyrs? 17:09:04 <04dracoomega> The key in question is basically used to make allies stop retreating if they've been stuck in place for long enough (at which point they just revert to normal behavior). I don't think there should be any serious oddness even if it wasn't being set properly. 17:11:05 <04dracoomega> Their description of the problem is not particularly enlightening. I'm not sure how much more useful I have to speculate without trying to reproduce from the save myself. 17:11:43 <04dracoomega> (Though I believe you said you tried and failed to do so?) 17:11:51 <09gammafunk> I didn't know retreating was required 17:12:05 <09gammafunk> I think they may have omitted that detail in the first description 17:12:15 <09gammafunk> I can try again in a bit, but I posted the save link above if you want to try 17:12:21 <09gammafunk> should work with your cdi login credentials 17:12:29 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I've already gotten it 17:12:32 <04dracoomega> Going to take at least a quick look 17:14:20 <04dracoomega> Was going to say it didn't seem like it, but now I think the game is hanging. 17:15:54 <04dracoomega> (To a degree that I can't even force it to end without doing a force shutdown on all of WSL >.> ) 17:19:46 <04dracoomega> (I decided to just double-check that erasing non-existent props is fine in general and that seems to be the case) 17:23:24 <09gammafunk> probably you just need to kill -9 the process in wsl 17:24:16 <09gammafunk> I think normal sighup will try to call the handler we have set up, and if the game is stuck in a loop, that won't get called, but sending a kill -9 should end it regardless 17:24:46 <04dracoomega> How do I do that? 17:25:21 <04dracoomega> (Because yes, restarting all of WSL (and my IDE, too) every time I test something is... a bit irritating ^^; ) 17:25:36 <09gammafunk> pidof crawl to get the process id, then kill -9 ID, or you can probably do killall -9 crawl 17:25:43 Bnni (L27 FoFi) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Hell) 17:26:29 <04dracoomega> That works, thank you! (Well, it works when it's not hung. We'll see, when it is) 17:29:30 <04dracoomega> Also, I think I have some progress 17:30:11 <04dracoomega> I think there are multiple parts of this bug 17:30:51 <09gammafunk> much like the Kraken itself.... 17:30:58 <04dracoomega> Not a kraken problem, amusingly enough 17:31:40 <04dracoomega> So, first problem: mons_end_withdraw_order isn't actually ending the order, and they keep trying to do so (even though the code there is called). Currently unclear why. 17:32:09 <04dracoomega> At which point mons.patrol_point.reset(); is called while they continue to act like they're retreating, which causes them to now retreat to (0,0) 17:32:24 <04dracoomega> And if they try to move into the level boundary while retreating, the game hands 17:32:40 <04dracoomega> This is more noticable in Shoals because of aquatic things that can generally just reliably go and do so 17:33:02 <04dracoomega> This is also why there's a weird lag time involved. They need to go where you told them to until they get blocked, then run all the way up to (0, 0) afterward 17:34:30 <04dracoomega> So there are at least two separate issues: why is retreat not ending when it ought to? And why is there a crash when trying to retreat up there (because you can just tell them to go in that direction and it wll hang) 17:43:16 <04dracoomega> I can see what some of that issue is. But the strange part is that when I was fixing a bunch of long-broken things with this (and tweaking a few others) back when working on newBeogh, I could swear I saw them actually properly ending and returning to the player under these circumstances. But the code that is sneakily causing mons_end_withdraw_order to not work is like 16 years old 17:51:17 <04dracoomega> Like, apparently if you change a monster's foe or behavior directly in handle_behaviour (or a function called by it) they get set back again afterward 17:51:19 <04dracoomega> At the end 18:04:59 <04dracoomega> Huh. Fixing the first problem appears to have also fixed the second one automatically, since normal retreat orders into the corners get clamped by map bounds and it never tries to leave the map. So I'm not actually quite sure what caused the seeming infinite loop 18:05:51 <04dracoomega> But maybe somewhere the game is like "You can't move into that space. Reevaluate your behavior instead." and then it arrived at the same target destination and just kept repeating it? 18:18:47 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1542-g13f425ce8b: Fix a weird infinite loop with ally retreat orders (robotcentaur) 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/13f425ce8bc9 18:20:41 <09gammafunk> @dracoomega thanks for the fix, I'll let the user know to retry after rebuild 19:07:07 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1543-g0e839f5252: Add glowing colours to the color database. 10(7 minutes ago, 3 files, 43+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0e839f52522a 19:07:07 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1544-g6d36d0655f: Use @the_monster_possessive@ in more places. 10(3 minutes ago, 3 files, 32+ 32-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6d36d0655f1b 19:11:24 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1545-g2796a0dc91: Fix incorrect weight in monster miscast message. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2796a0dc9174 19:16:46 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1546-g57f3d0c160: Simplify glowing dust miscast messages. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/57f3d0c1607c 19:16:46 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1547-g4b1f165adb: Add another monster alchemy miscast message. 10(80 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4b1f165adb84 19:18:55 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1548-gf9429a18e8: Fix comment typo. 10(71 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f9429a18e828 19:23:12 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1549-gb399a4f4c3: Add another glowing_adj to the colour database. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b399a4f4c388 19:31:46 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1550-gdcf5b866f4: Use @the_monster_possessive@ in one more place. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dcf5b866f429 20:12:37 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1551-gec53afd64b: Fix typo. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ec53afd64b0c 20:14:46 03fbwer02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3886 * 0.32-a0-1540-g19e6f8d8ea: noise 2 test 10(27 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/19e6f8d8ea30 20:28:20 <04dracoomega> Well, I sure have found a heck of a miasma bug 20:29:28 <04dracoomega> Since 0.30, miasma has only ever slowed monsters for 1 turn (when the slow even triggers). Broken by something that at first glance has nothing directly to do with it and seems harmless 20:29:41 <04dracoomega> %git 3abaafb9f6336d86ed529b034a35b75a16c8f4ec 20:29:41 <04Cerebot> hellmonk * 0.30-a0-237-g3abaafb9f6: randomize slow hex duration (1 year, 9 months ago, 1 file, 5+ 2-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3abaafb9f633 20:29:52 03fbwer02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3886 * 0.32-a0-1541-g2fd60d507a: test 2 10(40 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2fd60d507a72 20:31:30 <04dracoomega> The change here sets the minimum duration of BEAM_SLOW against monsters to 1 turn. But miasma somewhat uniquely applies slow to monsters by just making a simple beam and applying it via that. That beam had 0 ench_power, which previously would have applied '0' turns of slow and now applies 1 turn of slow. Except a duration of 0 is special-cased to mean 'the standard duration for that status effect'. Which depends on a moderately 20:31:31 complicated function of a monster's HD and speed, but is like... 10x as long as that or more 20:32:30 <06pleasingfungus> lol 20:32:58 <04dracoomega> Poor foul stench mutation 20:33:48 <04dracoomega> (The player being slowed by miasma goes though a completely different codepath, of course, and was unaffected) 20:43:10 <04dracoomega> I don't even really know why the slowing is done the way it is here, and I can only assume that this is because this code was written like 16 years ago and we didn't have more straightforward ways of doing it at the time, and because miasma is self-contained it was never touched. 21:20:06 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1552-g97836dd66e: Tweak orc priests' description of Beogh. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/97836dd66e99 22:35:27 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1552-g97836dd66e (34) 22:58:46 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1552-g97836dd66e 23:25:33 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1552-g97836dd66e (34) 23:55:23 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1552-g97836dd66e