00:14:10 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1476-ge2b7767857: Simplify god override logic a bit. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e2b776785762 00:17:23 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1477-g023c873f58: Re-separate priestly god overrides (oops). 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/023c873f58aa 00:21:00 04Build failed for 08master @ e2b77678 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/9560628400 03:23:56 New branch created: pull/3873 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3873 03:23:57 03Isaac Clancy02 {Wizard Ike} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3873 * 0.32-a0-1364-gd3fa206356: Don't let the player take actions when their turn is over 10(4 hours ago, 45 files, 1317+ 648-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d3fa206356d9 03:29:17 03Isaac Clancy02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3873 * 0.32-a0-1364-gb0b2bba987: Don't let the player take actions when their turn is over 10(4 hours ago, 45 files, 1317+ 648-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b0b2bba9878a 03:32:04 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5208-geafff8c3b6 03:33:34 03Isaac Clancy02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3873 * 0.32-a0-1364-g1aa4fcd7ef: Don't let the player take actions when their turn is over 10(4 hours ago, 45 files, 1288+ 657-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1aa4fcd7ef2a 03:37:51 03Isaac Clancy02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3873 * 0.32-a0-1364-gfb006e9c8d: Don't let the player take actions when their turn is over 10(4 hours ago, 45 files, 1290+ 657-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fb006e9c8d8b 03:43:11 03Isaac Clancy02 {Wizard Ike} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3873 * 0.32-a0-1364-gc4cc3c8cea: Don't let the player take actions when their turn is over 10(5 hours ago, 45 files, 1295+ 657-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c4cc3c8cea4d 03:46:24 03Isaac Clancy02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3873 * 0.32-a0-1364-gb9f1f3d8d0: Don't let the player take actions when their turn is over 10(5 hours ago, 45 files, 1295+ 657-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b9f1f3d8d031 04:10:54 03Isaac Clancy02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3873 * 0.32-a0-1364-gac6bc1331e: Don't let the player take actions when their turn is over 10(5 hours ago, 45 files, 1296+ 658-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ac6bc1331e8a 04:17:18 03Isaac Clancy02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3873 * 0.32-a0-1364-g328e7a4c1e: Don't let the player take actions when their turn is over 10(5 hours ago, 45 files, 1300+ 657-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/328e7a4c1e73 05:29:13 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1477-g023c873 (34) 05:42:22 <05icoson> with current macos, there's also an ld warning that I'm not entirely sure how to suppress 05:42:28 <05icoson> ld: warning: ignoring duplicate libraries: 'contrib/install/arm64-apple-darwin23.5.0/lib/libz.a' 05:42:35 03advil02 07* 0.32-a0-1478-g8a41b728e5: fix: quiet some clang warnings 10(15 hours ago, 8 files, 7+ 24-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8a41b728e5b9 05:42:36 <05icoson> 95% sure it's harmless 05:43:48 <05icoson> so then conditionally adding -no_warn_duplicate_libraries to the linker flags would do it, but I assume that needs to be fairly conditional 08:56:59 03Isaac Clancy02 {dolorous} 07* 0.32-a0-1479-g9260dd1d50: Improve picking up part of a stack with the mouse 10(9 days ago, 1 file, 11+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9260dd1d50a7 11:56:08 <04dracoomega> @mumra So, I have taken the time to review the current state of the player blindness, monster wand, and yaktaur scribe branches in detail today, since it would be nice to finally get some of this stuff merged - the first two for sure. (I apologize again for having my hands full of other things ^^; ) Here are my thoughts: 11:56:10 <04dracoomega> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1252698387510460528/message.txt?ex=667329c9&is=6671d849&hm=079dfdcb59498f403fe723c0c3c184cc345cb54ed6e7f9f7f24d5e4683b60a27& 11:56:20 <04dracoomega> Gah, lack of word wrap 11:56:23 <04dracoomega> Let me improve that 11:57:56 <04dracoomega> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1252698831301382184/message.txt?ex=66732a33&is=6671d8b3&hm=283f14af12eb846a897dcead4aa93a9a021c729629f99a94fcb465cd1b20ef80& 11:58:32 <04dracoomega> A bit better ^^; 12:30:07 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1480-gf429392eed: Add another ancestor name. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f429392eed7d 12:48:26 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3868 * 0.32-a0-1470-g3c0900e6c1: unbrace 10(88 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3c0900e6c101 14:55:36 New branch created: pull/3875 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3875 14:55:37 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3875 * 0.32-a0-1481-g1910ec2713: Don't leak invisible monsters when casting Gell's Gavotte 10(4 minutes ago, 3 files, 6+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1910ec271347 14:57:46 <09hellmonk> I'm not gonna say it but I am thinking it 14:59:53 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3875 * 0.32-a0-1481-g0e16953cca: Don't leak invisible monsters when casting Gell's Gavotte (#3836) 10(8 minutes ago, 3 files, 6+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0e16953ccaa6 15:01:39 <04dracoomega> One of the first things you ever did in hellcrawl2, I assume 15:16:38 <09gammafunk> you're thinking that orange crystal statues will return in hellcrawl2 I bet 15:19:07 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1481-gf261964bf6: Fix a crash with generating wizard apostles at very low power 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f261964bf61b 15:19:07 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1482-gca6d56b4bc: Fix/adjust Blorkula the Orcula 10(3 minutes ago, 4 files, 22+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ca6d56b4bc41 15:19:07 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1483-gdbccd6685e: Fix Dith shadow mimic and Yred reaping chance not maxing at 6* 10(21 hours ago, 2 files, 2+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dbccd6685e31 15:36:45 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-1480-gf429392eed (34) 15:59:40 <04dracoomega> So, Index has wanted Makhleb's Major Destruction to be slightly less vanilla than 'bolt of random element' for a while now. So I went and won a couple Makhleb games with different characters, trying to be a lot more liberal with getting value out of the ability than usual, and noting how it felt in different situations and on different characters. (And then won Qazlal and Nemelex games afterward for contrast >.>). Afterward, I 15:59:41 attempted a couple iterations on changes to it that I ended up not being very happy with, but while searching through years of what people had said on the topic, I found this discussion and was very intrigued at what was mentioned here: https://discord.com/channels/205277826788622337/205316046230388737/1128373531919527966 (For those that aren't in the other discord, it starts with elliptic saying I think probably for makh I would suggest buffing the hp 15:59:41 on kills at low piety by quite a bit, merging minor/major destruction and keeping it at 2 stars, merging lesser/greater servant and putting it at 4 stars, and putting something new (ideally passive or capstone) at 5 stars or 6 stars and then a bunch of follow-up discussion on that note.) 15:59:42 <04dracoomega> Index and I discussed the idea that was mentioned afterward of 'picking a demonspawn facet among a randomized curated list' as a capstone a fair bit, and after some iteration, I think we've settled on a basic mechanical/flavor for this which we both like: a demonic mark or brand that one carves into one's own body as the ultimate physical pact with a god whose description already specifically talks about 'the mortification of the 15:59:42 flesh'. Pick one out of a choice of 2-3 from a randomized Makhleb-specific list of capstone passives. Mark of Calamity, Mark of Hemoclasm, Mark of Subjugation, etc. These would all be passives that remained so long as you still worshipped the god. Some could be similar to some demonspawn mutations (though I'd rather avoid dipping too directly into species-unique things here) but others could specifically tie into what the god already does: directly 15:59:43 enhancing Destruction to give it AoE alongside the bolts, causing your summoned Servants to spawn with random buffs, etc. I think the randomized nature of what you are offered is appropriate for an explicitly chaotic god, and the act of self-mutilation for power is strong flavor connection with what Makhleb is already about. Mahkleb worshippers ought to be scary people! (There's a bunch to hash out about how to merge the other abilities together as 15:59:43 well, but Makhleb having that split between 'minor/major' on two abilities (which you eventually mostly grow out of using) does feel like a vestige of an earlier time in some ways, and a bunch of people feel they could use a little touch-up in some ways. 16:00:08 <04dracoomega> @qwqwqwqwqwqwqw Do you still feel similarly about what you said up there? It's been a year, but I don't think much relevant in the game itself has changed since. 16:02:32 <04dracoomega> (If anything, Coglin gizmo major properties are a good example of 'Pick from a randomized subset of unique properties' being successful and popular) 16:11:13 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> yeah, basically I think destruction/servant play fine and don't think it would be a problem that they are fairly basic if they didn't inhabit 4 active abilities 16:15:09 <04dracoomega> I think it being a projectile fired mainly with your own HP is actually reasonably interesting! (Though it did feel to me that it nonetheless fell off a bit more in the lategame than most god damage abilities did, while not necessarily being hugely better than them earlier on.) 16:15:30 <06dolorous_84348> For the record, I think this Makhleb concept is totally awesome. 16:15:38 <04dracoomega> If the two are merged together, I don't know if this means that it always pierces from 2* or if it gains piercing properties at 4* (but is the same singular ability) 16:16:31 <04dracoomega> (They'd sort of need to cost the same in that model, one assumes.) 16:17:29 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> the ability needs to have a piety cost regardless I think, that was something I liked about merging them anyway 16:17:45 <04dracoomega> Greater destruction costs extremely little piety, of course, though I think there's still a psychological effect to 'free' versus 'cheap' in terms of how much one feels one can use it. (The rounding math causing the game's UI to list Lesser Servant and Major Destruction as costing the same until recently certainly didn't help in that regard >.> Though as I said, I deliberately played a bunch of games knowing it actually was cheap 16:17:45 and trying to be as liberal with it as possible) 16:17:47 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (and why I'd like to see buffing the hp/kills at low piety) 16:18:23 <04dracoomega> (Some of minor destructions potentially awkward effects with being free is that 1 hp was also nothing) 16:19:33 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> really I think what I had in mind was just having it be major destruction and tweaking the damage scaling at low invo a bit, but making it only gain piercing at 4* or whatever sounds fine too 16:19:43 <04dracoomega> I did find lategame that I was less enthusiastic about just tossing major destructions out there (even with high invo), because in a fight where using them actually mattered, I tended to also care about being down 30 HP. Like, the opportunity cost of "Is this better than not doing that and just hitting them with my very high damage melee at this point?" (This is somewhat ancillary to merging and other stuff. Just talking about 16:19:44 recent gamefeel thoughts on it) 16:20:01 <04dracoomega> But that could just be a numbers thing, I dunn 16:20:42 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I use major destruction a decent amount even later on but mainly just to kill annoying summoners, think that's fine though 16:20:46 <04dracoomega> (Lategame Makh was of course still pretty strong from just the healing) 16:20:56 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> it's quite good in lair/orc though 16:21:02 <04dracoomega> Yes, no argument there at all 16:21:18 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I don't think the design needs to try to make it be more than utility late, esp with a new capstone 16:21:58 <06regret-⸸nde※> There's weird components to it rolling a random spellpower and then handing thata off to random spells that each have their own varying spellpower scaling, right? 16:22:04 <04dracoomega> Yeah. Or rather: a capstone might do that as one of its things, but doesn't have to be true in general 16:22:28 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> sure, yeah, the idea of having one capstone that improves your destruction sounds fine to me 16:22:30 <04dracoomega> So some game you have have super destruction and then in other games it falls off in favor of some other thing 16:22:50 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> reminds me of truly ancient Ds with bolt of draining mutation 16:23:12 <04dracoomega> I don't even remember that one 16:23:26 <06dolorous_84348> I barely remember it. 16:24:06 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I don't remember the details except that it was hideously overpowered 😛 16:24:20 <06dolorous_84348> Same here. 16:24:41 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> but it was fun to have a powerful conjuration-y ability 16:25:36 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I do think that part of this proposal probably has to include cutting back on servant's base power level, btw 16:25:37 <04dracoomega> I do wonder if merging the two Servants together has some more troubles to puzzle out, though. Like, the two destructions are more alike than the two servants are, kind of? Insofar as you can get Lesser Servant to be 'safe' pretty early in the game, and then it can be used liberally in that role (it will almost never backfire - and even if it does, is usually not a big deal). Greater Servant takes ages to be safe and is much riskier 16:25:37 when it isn't. If Servant is instead scaling its quality more with invocations (presumably by getting stronger demons based on invo), does this mean the backfire chance has to remain constant? Or mostly constant? Are you getting better servants instead of safer servants? (Stronger servants are also more dangerous when they're hostile!) 16:26:31 <04dracoomega> (I mean, some of 'cutting back on its power level' could just be 'It's never actually safe' which is sure a nerf. Not sure how I feel about that on the whole yet, though) 16:27:07 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I was thinking more of removing the strongest demons as options 16:27:21 <04dracoomega> Executioners are so iconic, though T.T 16:27:30 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> can add them back as a capstone 😛 16:27:45 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like something has to be nerfed if you are adding a powerful new capstone 16:28:03 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> makh not actually a weak god, just a relatively boring one 16:28:46 <06regret-⸸nde※> Isn't there something of a nerf inherently to Minor Destruction actually having a cost and taking longer to get Lesser Servant? 16:29:25 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> well I would say minor destruction should also be stronger when you get it 16:29:37 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> and I also did suggest improving the low piety heal on kills 16:29:58 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> but regardless, high piety makh is quite strong currently 16:30:05 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> which is when the capstone matters 16:31:50 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> note the combined servant would also probably have an intermediate piety cost 16:31:57 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> between the current lesser cost and the current greater cost 16:32:04 <04dracoomega> Hmmm 16:32:21 <04dracoomega> (Hadn't thought about that part, of course) 16:32:23 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> so roughly I'm saying that at high invo it should lose exec + balrug or something like that while also costing a bit less piety 16:32:43 <04dracoomega> How do you think the hostile chance should work in this system, though? 16:33:07 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (make the demons you get scale weakly with invo, not sure abuot hostile chance but I think that's the weakest part of current makh as far as good gameplay goes anyway) 16:36:46 <04dracoomega> I suppose I'm a bit torn on the 'good gameplay' part, when I think about it. Certainly, with Lesser Servant it's a very attainable goal to just not have to deal with hostiles past the very early game. I do think even once Greater Servant is safe enough, hostiles can still regularly be a real problem. Probably this was an active disincentive to using it in lots of situations lategame where it felt like the average servant wouldn't 16:36:46 help a fight that much, but a bad role could still cause actual problems. So maybe that's a strike against it if it does more to encourage one not to use it? But at the same time, it also feels very iconic to the god and the dangerous nature of the god's power, so I'm a little torn. ...I wonder a little for a moment at no hostility, but making the health cost larger?? Keeping some of the 'dangerous and double-edged' but in a less binary way? Not 16:36:47 sure. 16:37:22 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (lesser servant hostile chance is extremely easy to make 0 while greater servant hostile chance creates annoying "use this at the start of the fight and teleport if it is hostile" play, with "train more invo to save more tele scrolls") 16:38:17 <04dracoomega> Ha. "Read ?tele" is a strategy I never preemptively used for it, I think? My default answer to a hostile greater servant was to throw more servants at it >.>; 16:38:28 <04dracoomega> (But obviously it can be dangerous) 16:38:37 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> there's also the reason why lesser servant hostile chance was changed to go down to 0 instead of just going down to 1%, which is that "very small chance of getting mutated by neqoxec" was not very fun 16:38:49 <04dracoomega> Oh, right, eww 16:39:13 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (cacodemon still has that issue but at least greater servant is a much more powerful ability) 16:39:38 <04dracoomega> (I mean, neqoxecs aren't even very useful as allies these days, but it's reasonable for a god of chaotic summons to have some 'misses') 16:39:59 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> anyway I agree it's good flavor but I don't have a strong feeling about the details of what to do with it because I don't think the gameplay is very good 16:40:08 <06dolorous_84348> What if, instead of a chance of a hostile greater servant, you had a greater servant who was charmed, so that it would only be friendly for so long? 16:40:26 <06dolorous_84348> Still the risk, but you have more time to deal with it? 16:40:27 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> @??neqoxec 16:40:28 <04Cerebot> neqoxec (3) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 29-39 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 15 | demonic, doors, evil, fly | Res: will(40), poison, miasma, neg+++, foul_flame, torm | Vul: holy, silver | XP: 184 | Sp: malmutate [!sil], brain bite (4-8*) [!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 16:40:29 <04dracoomega> (Do you think that trying to offload the 'double-edged' risk thing just into the HP cost moreso instead of any hostility chance is at all reasonable?) 16:40:39 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> oh, they lost impspam I guess 16:41:20 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I think increasing HP costs might be a good idea regardless (and could conceivably nerf using that and keep in exec/balrug at high invo?) 16:41:25 <02Monkooky> I think one of the things that's most distinctive about makh at the moment is that minor destruction is free 16:41:28 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> whether it really ticks the same flavor box, not sure 16:41:51 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I don't think it's distinctive in a good way 😛 16:42:05 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> it's like old drac breath 16:42:30 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> you just spam it a bunch and in some situations it's good but you aren't thinking about it much 16:42:35 <02Monkooky> Sure 16:42:50 <02Monkooky> but you could say the same about ranged weapons 16:43:09 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I mean, ranged weapons you get to find loot and enchant it and train skills to meaningfully influence it 16:43:37 <02Monkooky> you train invo and pick makhleb in the first place to meaningfully influence minor destro 16:44:29 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I forget how much invo helps with it but certainly not enough to make it be your primary form of offense once you get to lair or so 16:44:38 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> and I think it would be super bad if it did stay your primary form of offense 16:44:45 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> sounds like it would make every makh game feel exactly the same 16:44:55 <02Monkooky> I've done that on some DS, and it's viable through lair 16:45:00 <04dracoomega> (Exactly how much invo affects damage is sort of complicated to calculate here because of how many random layers are involved) 16:45:02 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> it's helpful through lair 16:45:13 <02Monkooky> No I've done basically nothing but invo through lair 16:45:32 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I strongly suspect you were using other stuff too, like the other makh abilities 16:45:47 <02Monkooky> yeah of course 16:45:58 <02Monkooky> but my main killdudes was minor destruction 16:45:59 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> also, don't think we should balance a god around +3 invo apt 16:46:01 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> sounds narrow 16:46:03 <02Monkooky> sure 16:46:06 <04dracoomega> I am curious if you mean this would still be true in your subjective experience if it cost more HP, but 0 piety 16:46:30 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> easy for makh to be attractive for high invo apt characters without minor destruction, anyway 16:47:06 <04dracoomega> (I wondered in general how heavier HP costs interact with viability of using those abilities on low-hp races versus high ones, and whether this baises Makh in a way that's not great. Or if instead it biases it in a way that is entirely flavorful) 16:47:07 <02Monkooky> basically my stance here I find having 'get an ability that serves as a ranged option' to be one of the most compelling bits about current makh 16:47:17 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> you will still have that! 16:47:19 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> great! 16:47:55 <09gammafunk> wow...Makhleb finally losing its status as the least-changed god from linley crawl: > (2.82) Makhleb — Minor Destruction, * Lesser Servant of Makhleb, Major Destruction, Greater Servant of Makhleb 16:47:57 <04dracoomega> (And if there's any logic to the costs somehow being adjusted based on the character's own health. Or if this just makes heal-on-kills relatively worse for high hp races or something) 16:47:59 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like you can use major destruction a lot currently, with medium invo expenditure it's better than bolt wands 16:49:11 <02Monkooky> if it's costing 0-1 piety then I don't think it does the same job as 'every wand type' or 'a modest stack of boomerangs' 16:49:26 <06regret-⸸nde※> ...I am very suspicious that demons from Linleycrawl's Makhleb are pretty unrecognizable from the current ones anyway. 16:49:33 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> also, "spammable 2* ability that is extremely vanilla in effect is one of the most compelling bits about current makh" is a great indictment of the current design if true 16:50:02 <09gammafunk> it doesn't even mention heal on kills actually 16:50:08 <04dracoomega> I think there's a significant psychological difference between 'free' and 'very cheap' that shouldn't be completely disregarded. (But at the same time, I never felt that piety was an obstacle to major destruction usage. HP, sometimes, definitetly) 16:50:13 <09gammafunk> oh yes it does, further below though 16:50:34 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> it's piercing and you have far far far more charges than wands and it does a lot more damage 16:50:36 <09gammafunk> and yeah different demons, but when you look at the other list of god abilities, they're way different 16:51:02 <09gammafunk> shining one giving thunderbolt at 4*, classic 16:52:48 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> IMO the difference is that you put minor destruction in quiver and spam it mindlessly at everything that moves to get the free value until it really falls off in S branches or so 16:53:01 <02Monkooky> yes 16:53:24 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> for the majority of makh's life this wasn't an issue because of hunger btw 16:53:26 <06dolorous_84348> I remember in early Stone Soup, Makhleb would also hurl divine lightning sometimes when you used Greater Destruction. (Hence, why I added the "Xom hurls a blast of lightning!" message, with the same phrasing except for the god name, as a reference to that.) 16:53:34 <04dracoomega> I mean, would you do that if it cost a bunch more HP? (Of course, it couldn't be a 2* ability and cost a large amount of flat health unless the health cost somehow also scaled, as I mused about above, I guess) 16:53:39 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (also because of worse quiver) 16:54:23 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I mean, at some HP cost I just wouldn't use it at current damage, so I assume you mean also making it behave more like major destruction in piercing/damage? 16:54:53 "if it cost more HP, but 0 piety" putting in my vote for being tentatively fond of this possibility 16:54:56 <04dracoomega> Presumably, yes 16:55:02 <08wormsofcan> what if the ability summoned a bunch of demons some of which were guaranteed to be hostile 🤔 16:55:03 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> if the suggestion is something like "make major destruction always cost 0 piety but x% of your mhp", I guess that could work 16:55:56 <04dracoomega> (Incidentally, I had independently of any mechanical change thinking of making blood splatters around the player when they use Makh invocations :P) 16:56:00 it bridges me and Monkooky finding the 0-piety active a positive of the god and elliptic finding the spammable low-power bolt a negative 16:56:22 <08wormsofcan> the ignite blood synergy... 16:56:23 <02Monkooky> tbh I think the spammability is a positive 16:56:35 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (think you'd want the hp cost to scale with the game and scaling based on mhp feels better to me than scaling based on invo, don't want people to refrain from training invo because it would increase the hp cost) 16:56:57 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I agree that downsides to training invo are dicey 16:57:14 <04dracoomega> Percentage of max HP does have the somewhat interesting property that it's probably comparatively cheap in earlygame, too 16:57:33 <04dracoomega> (Maybe this makes it feel worse in lategame than now, but scaling can be adjusted to help with that. And there's always Makh's other stuff) 16:58:01 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> you could still spam it with more HP cost really, it would just be a bit iffier sometimes and you'd definitely want rest-before-autoexplore turned on 16:59:07 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like if current minor destruction cost 2-3 HP instead of 1 I would probably still quiver it and use it a lot, would just think about it a little more in tenser spots 16:59:18 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> so you'd still have some spammability 😛 16:59:39 <02Monkooky> yeah, that's true 16:59:57 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (but I do think you'd have to aim more at 5%+ of mhp to have a chance of balancing it with something more like major destruction's power) 17:00:14 <02Monkooky> Also irrespective of my position; I feel like it should be noted that major destruction falls off almost has hard as minor 17:00:22 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> strongly disagree? 17:00:30 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I'm using major destruction in zot 17:00:34 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (on moths) 17:00:44 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (and sometimes shifters) 17:00:46 <02Monkooky> yeah, ok, that's probably exaggeration 17:01:01 <02Monkooky> but it still falls off very very hard, due to random element 17:01:06 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I don't think I've ever used minor destruction after finishing D 17:01:14 <02Monkooky> huh, really? 17:01:24 <02Monkooky> I definitely have 17:01:31 <02Monkooky> like, rather a lot 17:01:44 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like there are some harmless monsters I could use it against for a little value sometimes but I could also summon corner or whatever 17:01:48 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> or just tab the harmless monster 17:02:09 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I'm never using it on a naga mage or basically any other ranged monster 17:02:12 <02Monkooky> anything big and melee is worth minor destructioning 17:02:14 <02Monkooky> yeah 17:02:33 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> and super unlikely I care more about the damage against a random melee monster than the positioning I could do with that time 17:03:00 <04dracoomega> No argument against having way more uses of major destruction, but I feel like noting that when I did the math, 12 invo major destruction averages slightly lower damage than the good wands with 12 evo (and the latter will never randomly roll something the monster heavily resists or is immune to). (This may be a slightly unfair comparison, since 12 invo is more generally useful to train than 12 evo. But the formulas here are kind 17:03:01 of slow to do a comprehensive comparison of on the fly ^^; ) 17:03:03 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> to be clear though, I think it's a sign of poor design of minor destruction if you are using it "rather a lot" in S branches 17:03:17 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> since it's the first of 4 active abilities that are supposed to get more and more powerful 17:03:49 <02Monkooky> Ok I vehemently disagree with this 17:03:54 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I train like 16 invo with makh for greater servant, so that's more the comparison 17:04:24 <02Monkooky> an ability remaining good is not a sign of poor design unless it obsoletes the later abilities 17:04:41 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I mean, I'd say it is given the sentence I said just above 17:04:54 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> that it's the first of 4 active abilities 17:05:05 <02Monkooky> is fedhas briars remaining good bad design 17:05:22 <02Monkooky> should that ability become useless by the end of D? 17:05:34 <06regret-⸸nde※> (...How many big melee monsters post-D without an attendant band are there even much left? Spriggan riders and hydras and bunyips and ghouls in Swamp, emperor scorpions in Spider, ...merfolk impalers in Shoals? anacondas in Snake?...) 17:05:35 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> we don't want people to be using scorch late either, as an example that has come up recently 17:05:45 <02Monkooky> I feel like 4 active god abilities with different use cases is desirable 17:05:53 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> they clearly aren't different use cases 17:05:57 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> it's one use case 17:06:09 <02Monkooky> if 'damage' is considered a single use case, yes 17:06:14 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> maybe two 17:06:44 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> and I do think fedhas has too many redundant active abilities anyway 17:06:58 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> briars is substantially different though, since it's defensive and the others are not 17:07:48 <02Monkooky> minor destruction and major destruction are definitely not interchangeable, and wanting to use minor destruction late in some circumstances does very little to detract from the circumstances where you want to use major destruction 17:08:12 <02Monkooky> I don't think you can reasonably argue that they've got the same use cases 17:08:21 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> it's also super relevant that minor destruction is literally the most boring effect of any invocation in the game 17:08:25 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> while briars is super unique 17:09:12 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like seriously I've never heard so much defense of a single-target beam in my life 😛 17:09:24 <06regret-⸸nde※> (...Arguably Smiting is more boring, but that's at least in the context of firing behind an apostle army.) 17:09:31 <06dolorous_84348> Blowing things up with a randomly flavored beam does at lest fit the theme of destruction and chaos, though. That doesn't mean it should be the only focus, but I wouldn't call it boring. 17:09:35 <02Monkooky> I bet you I can find some threads about poison arrow 17:09:49 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> poison arrow at least had a unique flavor! 17:09:57 <04dracoomega> Smiting is very vanilla, but it's hard to get any other source of damage so certain Will Definitely Work 17:11:00 it's also not normally what one would think of in a design context (player-monster asymmetry etc) but the very fact that it's such an iconic threat on the other side makes it feel better to use 17:11:13 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> anyway I am going to stick by "I don't think it's good for a god to have a boring infinitely spammable ability" 17:11:14 <04dracoomega> (For some reason I am still crunching numbers that are effectively irrelevant, but 16 invo major destruction is better than evo 12 wands - but still worse than evo 16 wands for raw damage output. Even if this doesn't greatly matter overall.) 17:11:42 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> the charges difference is larger, anyway 17:11:45 <04dracoomega> Sidetracks in pursuit of exact statements about things in flux in ways that would make them less relevant anyway 17:11:55 <04dracoomega> (I am very sleep-deprived again today T.T) 17:11:58 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> hard to have hundreds of qsilver charges 17:12:23 may you be less sleep-deprived on future days 17:12:41 <04dracoomega> That would sure be nice 17:12:44 <02Monkooky> I think it's absolutely desirable for god abilities to have a use case all game, regardless of whether minor destruction is boring 17:12:52 <04dracoomega> But apparently what I do on 4 hours of sleep is write multiple design essays 😛 17:13:28 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> if you can get an interesting use case, sure, but "get a small amount of extra damage at range against that nonexistent solitary melee monster" is not it 17:14:00 <02Monkooky> I mean I use it in zot vs wrath moths if they aren't urgent kills 17:14:04 <06dolorous_84348> At least you can keep it all in your head at once. My idea tend to come out in a bunch of spurts, and I never seem to be able to think of everything at one time. 17:14:13 <02Monkooky> I think minor destruction is simple rather than boring, and fundamentally changes games where you worship makh in ways not currently mirrored by another god 17:14:50 <06regret-⸸nde※> (...Now I just want more than Asterion for monsters worshipping Makhleb considering how relatively straightforward this is, though considering it's been three years without Asterion being properly kept up to date I wonder if it'd also fall behind.) 17:14:54 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> can we not call "can use this instead of throwing a boomerang in nonthreatening situations" "fundamentallly changes games" 17:15:16 <02Monkooky> literally infinite boomerangs kinda fundamentally changes games 17:15:20 <02Monkooky> I am gonna stand by my statement 17:15:31 <02Monkooky> perhaps it's an incorrectly assessed playfeel thing 17:15:33 (I have given some thought to the idea of the destruction spells firing 2 elements a la demonspawn blood saints' legendary destruction making them more consistent and generally destructive-themed but that's still a single-target beam) 17:15:38 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> you've failed to give any example of any threatening situation where it is useful starting in S branches or so 17:16:00 <04dracoomega> (I do kind of tend to think a 0 piety max-HP-cost bolt would be usefully spammable in a way that other god abilities are not, but also with tradeoffs that other god damage invocations don't have and that's... probably a good thing?) 17:16:21 <04dracoomega> Could certainly use it more freely than similar things (even if that's not always wise) 17:16:34 <04dracoomega> Makhleb should sometimes lead one on the road of their own glorious self-destruction and all >.> 17:16:37 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I mean, it's essentially just dj so we know how it feels kind of (but dj is popular) 17:16:58 <04dracoomega> Sure, yes. But you can't be a djinn and a demonspawn at the same time 😛 17:17:09 <06regret-⸸nde※> Finally, a context we can steal Temporal Fugue for. 17:17:09 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> but dj's spells scale strongly with the game and have more than 1 HP cost (though still the hp cost doesn't scale enough with the game IMO) 17:17:09 personally the very fact that it's a little different from the way other gods distribute their actives is part of what I like about it 17:17:29 <02Monkooky> but to me the experience of worshipping makhleb is fundamentally different because you have a free spammable ranged option 17:17:42 <09gammafunk> I think I specifically avoided giving asterion anything other than greater destruct and servant because of its placement depth 17:18:08 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like I do think that "thing you can put in the quiver and use on everything mindlessly" feels good in some ways, I just don't think it's good gameplay on something that scales poorly with the game 17:18:32 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> fine on dj or ranged, you are doing some work to decide what to spam and it is scaling well wit hthe game 17:18:42 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> lousy with minor destruction 17:18:57 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> maybe fine on major destruction with 0 piety cost and higher HP cost 17:19:26 <02Monkooky> I'm not gonna lie, I don't credit the 'three times per game you have to change bow' as much work deciding what to spam 17:19:34 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (would be even more fine if major destruction was less boring, since it's only a bit more interesting than minor with piercing but still very vanilla) 17:20:49 <04dracoomega> Suddenly imagining a 'Mark of the Saint' that replaces your Destruction with Legendary Destruction or somesuch 😛 (At an actual piety cost and larger health cost or something) 17:20:55 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> there can be interesting decisions, people certainly ask for ranged weapon comparisons frequently... but also you get to choose to wear dex gear and slaying and whether to use a shield and training multiple skills etc 17:21:14 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> swapping to penetration bow also a thing 17:21:28 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> heavy armour slowing you down is a thing 17:22:43 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> it's vastly more complicated than "raise invo if you want slightly more damage (but still a small amount) for your ability that isn't worth an action in any dangerous situation" 17:22:48 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> with no other considerations 17:24:05 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> you also just get to have lucky finds of good weapon upgrades... or not 17:24:10 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> games are not identical 17:24:29 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> the way minor destruction is identical in different makhleb games with the same invo skill 17:24:47 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> that's really the strongest mark against it for me honestly 17:25:02 <02Monkooky> ...is that not true for every god ability? 17:25:06 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> it's not just spammable but literally the same in different games 17:25:13 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> other god abilities aren't infinitely spammable! 17:25:16 <02Monkooky> ok in conjunction with spammable 17:25:35 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> a lot of abilities also interact with your gear 17:25:50 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like heroism or finesse change in strength based on your gear and character 17:25:59 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> not just your oka invo skill 17:26:00 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> briars too, since that was brought up earlier 17:26:18 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> different on an axes char or a polearms char or a ranged char or a caster etc 17:26:34 <06regret-⸸nde※> Can't lie, I was expecting the whole write-up for Marks in this channel to mostly elicit a lot more meme suggestions for Marks like "summon neutral cerebov" or "bring back demonic horde" rather than this current debate. 17:27:55 <09gammafunk> it's never really a bad time to bring up Demonic Horde 17:27:56 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like I do think being the same on different characters is one issue with other makhleb abilities too, just to a lesser extent because they aren't spammable so different characters can use them in different fights at least 17:28:16 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (but capstone proposal is a good way to make them feel more different) 17:28:27 <02Monkooky> tbh I feel like the majority of god abilities are the same on different characters 17:28:57 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> on some characters I use major destruction a lot more, on others I use lesser servant more, and on others I use greater servant 17:29:06 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I mean I just gave a bunch of examples 17:29:22 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> and being non-spammable helps again 17:29:46 <04dracoomega> The random spread of Marks also means that not only can you not count on doing the same thing each game, but also that you can theoretically tailor your god at least a little bit to your character. Some Marks better on high-hp bruises, some better on other people, etc. 17:30:00 <04dracoomega> A whiff of demonspawn in every game 😛 17:30:19 <04dracoomega> (Flavor-wise, I'd really want to call them Brands if not for, well, that word already being spoken for) 17:30:21 <06dolorous_84348> Fitting, given Ignacio's backstory. 17:30:22 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> maybe vitalisation feels similar on different characters but at least weaker ones might need to use it a lot more frequently! like my recent zin character actually was down to 1* in elf 17:30:26 <02Monkooky> nemelex cards, ru abilities, qazlal abilities, lugonu abilities 17:30:37 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> piety is a helpful design etc 17:31:40 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> ru definitely has some issues (mainly with apoc overshadowing the other abilities) and indeed apoc is pretty similar, but still some differences, like on a weaker character I will find myself going dangerously low drainingwise 17:32:39 makhleb will finally cease to be an outlier among chaotic gods for in no circumstance mutating the player or their enemies (except through the incidental neqoxec) 17:32:40 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> nem cads and qazlal abilities might be roughly comparable to makhleb piety-using abilities, sure 17:33:21 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> with lugonu I feel like different characters banish different things? 17:33:42 <02Monkooky> is that different from this? 17:34:30 <02Monkooky> like, if you're making a point beyond 'this ability doesn't fundamentally change based on the char using it' I'm missing it 17:34:36 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> sure, it's similar enough, but the point is that even those abilities seem steps above current minor destruction to me 17:35:30 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> some abiliies depend more on the character, some depend less, but being piety-limited means they are likely to be used in different fights (and in different amounts) 17:37:09 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I think the argument you should be using btw is that passive abilities don't use piety either 17:37:19 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> so why is minor destruction worse than a passive? 17:37:29 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> and the answer is that it isn't passive 😛 17:37:54 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> if you wanted to argue for a passive X% each turn to fire a minor destruction at a random enemy, I'd be much more into it (but also some similarity to qazlal clouds) 17:38:04 <02Monkooky> I am not gonna keep arguing for it 17:38:24 <02Monkooky> I've made my case; it feels like a very different play experience to me 17:39:45 <02Monkooky> and beyond poking at specific arguments that I think are bad I don't think I can argue it further 17:39:58 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> that's fair, I guess I'll just point out that crawl has a long history of not keeping stuff in the game just because they are a different play experience 17:40:13 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> one example being the play experience of casting and recasting lots of buff spells 17:40:35 <02Monkooky> yeah, but also using minor destruction isn't really that onerous 17:40:39 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> so I don't see "it's different" as a particularly strong defense 17:41:47 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> another example would be the experience of handpicking gear for 20 different named orcs to wear 17:42:15 <02Monkooky> like, to the best of my observations the two big reasons for ramov are tedium and sameyness 17:42:41 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I'm not saying this is the same as those experiences, just that we don't necessarily keep things in just because they are unique inside crawl 17:42:47 <02Monkooky> sure 17:45:32 <06pleasingfungus> re dj: yeah, i gave em negative hp apt to try to keep it relevant, but can believe i undershot 17:45:38 <06pleasingfungus> these numbers are a first draft! 17:46:19 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I think HP cost being equal to MP cost has advantages in terms of simplicity 17:47:02 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> just think in practice it's closer to "unlimited MP" than "meaningful tradeoffs", which maybe is okay - certainly popular! and species are allowed to be strong in late game 17:47:25 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> that comment was more "I think makhleb HP costs should be higher than Dj HP costs" 17:47:50 <06pleasingfungus> vaguely assume hypothetical dj nerfs would be about lowering late game hp rather than adjusting cost formulae 17:47:59 <06pleasingfungus> but also don’t feel a pressing need to nerf 17:48:03 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> the anti-DE crowd would come for us 17:48:38 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I think one could also maybe consider nerfing dj magic apt by 1, but eh 17:48:45 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> think the species is clearly a success as is 17:51:58 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> roughly my take on Dj history is that "uses HP instead of MP to cast" isn't that interesting a design (contributing to failure of original dj) but "gets random spells only but trains all spell schools at once" is a great design 18:00:54 anyways my main takes on Marks are that coglins establish a pool of about 7 as a reasonable starting point and that, directly branching from an earlier comment, something that delivers malmutate might be good, whether as a destruction upgrade, on-death effect, or more-rarely activated passive 18:02:47 (on death of adjacent monsters, of course. a passive that delivers its effect on your death or the death of its target seems rather limited) 18:19:20 <06pleasingfungus> elliptic: yeah i think there’s a reasonable argument that hp casting makes current dj design worse rather than better (makes too many gods/items totally irrelevant, etc) 18:19:27 <06pleasingfungus> i’ve considered it many times over the years 18:19:46 <06pleasingfungus> but am not confident enough about it to upset the applecart :p 18:20:51 ddoor djinn might not be upset 18:21:41 <06pleasingfungus> ha, yes 18:22:45 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I think having some ability to make the random spells better than normal is probably good, but yeah not sure whether something else would be better and generally approve of not upsetting applecarts 18:26:52 <02Monkooky> applecarts are known for their vengefulness 18:29:14 <06pleasingfungus> i still remember, some twenty years ago, walking into a friend’s house to discover a Family Meeting underway 18:29:54 <06pleasingfungus> and my friend’s father turning to him to intone, quite seriously, “Well, now you’ve upset the apple-cart.” 18:37:01 <09gammafunk> with food removal, maybe we should feel free to wreck havoc upon applecarts 18:37:17 <06pleasingfungus> but food is back! 18:37:51 <09gammafunk> surely the applecarts are only decorative? 18:38:26 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> if we upset them then the apples will fall out and food will really be back 18:38:38 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> and then we can add back a fedhas fruit ability 22:35:19 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1483-gdbccd6685e (34) 22:57:56 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1483-gdbccd6685e 23:54:46 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1483-gdbccd6685e