03:32:39 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5208-geafff8c3b6 05:30:01 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1446-geb6dff9 (34) 09:40:28 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1447-g9aaa1af74f: Don't warn that Permafrost Eruption might hit cold-immune allies 10(7 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9aaa1af74f56 09:40:28 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1448-ge0739fc0ca: Improve stumbling into unknown walls with LoS 0 (elliptic) 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 13+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e0739fc0ca0c 09:41:33 03dependabot[bot]02 {GitHub} 07* 0.32-a0-1449-ge41de2be01: Bump tornado from 6.4 to 6.4.1 in /crawl-ref/source/webserver/requirements (#3857) 10(68 seconds ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e41de2be01da 09:48:25 <09gammafunk> What a lovley commit message dependabot makes... 09:49:31 <06pleasingfungus> you mean dependabotbot 09:52:21 <04dracoomega> Oh god, that is a doozy, yes 10:05:04 03NormalPerson702 {DracoOmega} 07* 0.32-a0-1450-gc23e6531e3: Don't imply melee-only buffs affect ranged weapon damage on x-v 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 11+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c23e6531e36b 10:05:04 03NormalPerson702 {DracoOmega} 07* 0.32-a0-1451-g02f1baff1b: Treat ghost/pan lord brands like other brands on x-v 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 9+ 34-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/02f1baff1bdd 10:05:04 03NormalPerson702 {DracoOmega} 07* 0.32-a0-1452-g2c2fcc182a: Split up and clean up _monster_attacks_description 10(22 hours ago, 1 file, 310+ 278-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2c2fcc182aa8 10:05:04 03NormalPerson702 {DracoOmega} 07* 0.32-a0-1453-g4b4f0a9da8: Add x-v row showing primary melee damage/flavour for ranged monsters 10(21 hours ago, 1 file, 44+ 28-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4b4f0a9da830 10:05:04 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1454-g088a3bca6d: Fix a crash with xv-ing Nessos 10(80 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/088a3bca6d3c 10:58:14 <04dracoomega> So, I think I'd like to take a serious stab at Poltergeists for 0.32 (not immediately, but in comfortable enough time to work out the issues they're almost certain to have before the version's done with). The core of their identity/gimmick was proposed quite a while ago, but a number of other details remain fuzzy and I was wondering people's thoughts. As a reminder, the idea was that this was a replacement for player vampires 10:58:14 (with some of the vampiric flavour being folded into a tweaked ghoul as an accompanying project). Would have a very similar aptitude spread as vampires currently do, the usual undead properties, and 'can equip a flexible set of aux armour' in a similar fashion that octopodes work with rings. 5 hats, far too many boots, etc. I think it could be interesting and fun (and, imo, vampire aptitudes are a pretty natural automatic fit). Now, the question is: 10:58:15 what else? Do they still wear body armour like most other people do, or do they lose that altogether for a greater number of aux slots in total? (I also considered something like a small flat shield bonus for each aux armour equipped and innate reflection, which could be a means to partially compensate for no body armour - except of course that it can sometimes take a while to fill aux slots - maybe less so when you can use multiples of the same type, 10:58:15 though!). Any other wild ideas for unique traits, comments, etc.? 11:18:57 <02Monkooky> think if you do no body armour they probably want some powerful early compensation 11:19:39 <02Monkooky> possibly could do a minor bonus for empty aux slots 11:20:10 <04dracoomega> Yeah, like some additional compensation possibly needed. The question is largely "Does it seem more or less interesting to work that way?" and then making it feel reasonably powered can be done afterward 11:20:39 <04dracoomega> I don't think I want a bonus for empty aux slots because that could encourage people not to become a walking hatrack 11:20:56 <04dracoomega> And if that's the big selling point of a species, I don't think the player should have incentive not to use it as much as possible 11:21:21 <04dracoomega> (And being like "These plain helmets aren't worth giving up [X] until I find a better one") 11:22:04 <02Monkooky> yeah I was thinking like +1 AC levels of minor, but it's fair nonetheless 11:23:12 <02Monkooky> I think no body armour sounds more appealing personally 11:31:53 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> don't think no body armour is a problem if they have some amount of intrinsic AC the way a bunch of species do 11:32:01 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> see: drac 11:33:06 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I'd probably suggest they get no body armour and 5ish slots that can hold any aux armour (cloak/boots/gloves/helmet) 11:34:19 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I guess you could go with a bit more than 5 depending on how much you want AC to scale that way and enchant armour scrolls to be important, but it doesn't sound that interesting to me to have too many 11:35:03 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I like 5 for the "normal" amonut of armour slots total (and again, some amount of intrinsic AC) 11:36:27 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> in general I think you should view this armour weirdness as a minor perk (I found 2 nice randart helmets and I can use both of them!) rather than anything as interesting/significant as Op rings 11:36:57 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (rings are far more distinct from each other than aux armour pieces are distinct from each other) 11:38:33 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (if you wanted to make them more distinct from each other you could try giving different aux types different extra perks, e.g. every hat/helmet gives +3 int on top of whatever it does normally, every cloak gives +2 EV, every gloves gives +2 slaying, etc, but I don't think it's worth the complexity) 11:43:55 <04dracoomega> Yeah, it's an interesting thought, but I suspect it's not worth the complexity, either. And it is a fair point about rings being more distinct from aux armour (at least until randarts are involved, but even then they're now probably just 'similar'). I guess additional slots was sort of from the viewpoint of "Body armor is a big one to lose" and getting stuff from one additional item feels probably more interesting than getting a 11:43:56 slightly larger amount of built-in innate AC or something (but perhaps not?) 11:45:58 <06dolorous_84348> Agreed. 11:50:51 <04dracoomega> (I debated a little whether they should be able to equip bardings. Logically, if they're not even 'wearing' the things, then why not? Body shape doesn't matter. Mechanically, they feel far superior to most aux armour so poltergeists might end up as clouds of as many bardings as they could find >.>) 11:51:18 <04dracoomega> Maybe we can just say they're too big/heavy in the way that body armour is. (...not that a robe should be heavy, I suppose, but...) 11:52:14 <02Monkooky> yeah bardings are very strong; you would absolutely want to be 5 the barding adventurer 11:52:26 <06dolorous_84348> Or maybe poltergeists, when they were alive, ended up being killed by wither nagas or armataur elephant riders, so they have an aversion to their bindings? 11:52:36 <06dolorous_84348> Although that's more flavor than mechanics. 11:52:58 <02Monkooky> 20 base AC 0 encumberand//*ca 11:53:08 <06regret-⸸nde※> Contrariwise, I kind of like the idea of being able to wear exactly one barding as if it was a poltergeist's body armour?... 11:53:11 <06regret-⸸nde※> * shrugs * 11:53:29 <06dolorous_84348> Maybe wear it on their head or equivalent, as though it's an odd kind of helmet 🙂 11:54:12 <04dracoomega> Not altogether sure I'd want a 'you can equip any aux armour in any combiation!' thing and then simultaneously say 'but only one of those'. 11:56:12 <06regret-⸸nde※> Fair enough. 12:03:35 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I'd say no bardings 12:03:48 <04dracoomega> I'm imagining them getting an aux now that involves slapping the enemy with their various floating pile of items 12:03:59 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> if you are forbidding body armour anyway, don't see the problem with forbidding bardings 12:04:00 <04dracoomega> With different verbs for what stuff you have on 12:04:08 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I basically agree with that 12:04:33 <04dracoomega> (Gloves can slap things, boots kick, hats headbutt, cloaks... strangle??) 12:07:20 <04dracoomega> I dunno if it makes sense to scale that aux with how many things you have equipped, or if that's sort of mildly bland in terms of "Useless earlygame and then eventually gets standardly strong". Though I guess that could just be a slightly more flavorable variant on the usual 'Gets better by XL [something]' 12:08:14 <06dolorous_84348> What if the poletergeist in question worships Xom, and Xom is a little too prone to dropping damaged armor items? 12:08:27 <06dolorous_84348> (Although that's probably an edge case.) 12:09:01 <04dracoomega> One never, ever needs to worry about Xom being too useful for anyone 12:09:22 <06dolorous_84348> Okay. Just a thought. 12:09:35 <04dracoomega> (And if the player is lucky enough to find a lot of aux armour really early, that's really not even as impactful as early !xp or ?acq or a really good early randart weapon already is) 12:10:18 <04dracoomega> Like, yes, it's potentially great for a poltergeist, but we're allowed to have seeds that are really good to the player 12:10:26 <04dracoomega> I doubt it will be more of an outlier than is already possible 12:11:30 <06dolorous_84348> Indeed. Crawl is challenging, not devilishly impossible. 14:06:24 <09gammafunk> I think I'm behind on what is the core of their identity/gimmick. What do they do aside from the no body armour and more auxes thing? 14:23:51 <04dracoomega> Well, I mean, I do think that's fairly distinctive. And you have fairly lopsided , notably hex-supporting vampire aptitudes (with a couple tweaks), the standard undead resists package... It could maybe use a little something else - hence me asking - but I feel that's most of the way to a solid species mechanical concept. Do you not? (It's not as busy as current vampire in some ways, but virtually everyone seems to have agreed that 14:23:51 current vampires are troubled) 14:37:39 <09gammafunk> I see. I wonder if you could have some sort of cool ghost-themed movement tech that is some way vaguely similar to bat form in that it allows some way of escape. Obviously not a permanent form since that has many issues that Vampire demonstrates 14:38:10 <09gammafunk> Unfortunately that suggestion is extremely insubstantial...much like a poltergeist... 14:38:35 <09hellmonk> ghost form through walls obviously 14:38:37 <09hellmonk> formicid 2 14:39:01 <09gammafunk> phase through clear stone into a teleport closet to avoid combat, what could go wrong 14:40:02 <09hellmonk> well obv it would cause draining to activate 14:40:41 <09gammafunk> can phase through any wall, but it purple drains you to ddoor levels of mhp, use wisely 14:41:21 <09hellmonk> phasing through materials harder than rock force drops your whole inventory 14:41:27 <09hellmonk> Balanced 14:41:28 <09gammafunk> other obvious good suggestions: some kind of fear ability that spooks monsters 😱 14:41:57 <09gammafunk> or make a player version of the phantom af_blink melee 14:42:17 <09hellmonk> Since poltergeists are known for throwing stuff should they get a big throwing apt 14:42:30 <09gammafunk> elliptic will probably veto that one 14:42:37 <09hellmonk> rip 14:42:43 <04dracoomega> Yes! (I already thought this was cute, but mostly irrelevant) 14:43:16 <09hellmonk> New account named shoaltergeist (that's where they get the javelins) 14:43:41 <09gammafunk> that account has to quite if it rolls swamp? 14:44:10 <09hellmonk> its not called swamptergeist 14:46:03 <04dracoomega> Clearly they get custom shout messages about rattling their equipment against each other, right? 😛 14:50:40 <09gammafunk> I'm vaguely worried that the armour slot code is going to be horrible to generalize to have 5 "any aux" slots 14:50:47 <09gammafunk> maybe you've looked at this and it's fine though 14:51:46 <09gammafunk> but I though of qw and how it will need some changes to its slot management code to accomodate this idea... 14:53:31 <09gammafunk> !apt vp 14:53:32 <04Cerebot> Vp: Fighting: -1, Short: 1, Long: 0, Axes: -1, Maces: -2, Polearms: -1, Staves: -2, Ranged: -2, Throw: -2*, Armour: -2, Dodge: 1, Stealth: 5, Shields: -1, UC: 1, Splcast: -1, Conj: -3*, Hexes: 4, Summ: 0, Nec: 1, Tloc: -2, Alch: 1, Fire: -2, Ice: 0, Air: 0, Earth: 0, Inv: -1, Evo: -1, Shape: 0, Exp: -1, HP: 0, MP: 0 14:54:45 <09gammafunk> !apt mu 14:54:46 <04Cerebot> Mu: Fighting: 0, Short: -2*, Long: -2*, Axes: -2*, Maces: -2, Polearms: -2, Staves: -2, Ranged: -2, Throw: -2*, Armour: -2, Dodge: -2, Stealth: -1, Shields: -2, UC: -2*, Splcast: 2, Conj: -2, Hexes: -1, Summ: -2, Nec: 0, Tloc: -2, Alch: -2, Fire: -2, Ice: -2, Air: -2, Earth: -2, Inv: -1, Evo: -2, Shape: N/A, Exp: -1, HP: 0, MP: 0 14:55:06 <04dracoomega> Oh, I'm sure it will be a giant technical headache, yes. (I've looked somewhat at how a number of relevant things are handled, but haven't like done anything yet) 14:55:48 <04dracoomega> (I'm probably more worried about UI than the backend, though, but hopefully can borrow stuff from octopodes) 15:01:43 <04dracoomega> Suddenly wondering what happens now if you could have Slick Slippers and Mountain Boots on at the same time 😛 15:06:35 <04dracoomega> (Logically, I think Mountain Boots should win, but I have no idea if codepath-wise they currently do) 15:37:15 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-1454-g088a3bca6d (34) 15:52:48 <09gammafunk> oh, hah 15:59:40 <09gammafunk> your saying that made me go to the wiki list of unrands to see what other weird aux conflicts could arise, but nothing stands out 16:00:06 <09gammafunk> was somewhat surprised by how few unrand aux armours we actually have 16:00:16 <09gammafunk> in my head there was a long list to analyse 16:03:24 <02Monkooky> fencer's gloves + mmm might be a little odd? 16:03:27 <04dracoomega> (I had independently thought that mountain boots' effect might make sense to peel off into a regular boot ego (since I think we could use more aux egos in general, and that feels... suitably low impact, I think?) and do something else with the mountain boots that we couldn't put on a regular item) 16:03:47 <04dracoomega> Boots of Stability or somesuch 16:08:44 <02Monkooky> give them the ability to boost EV by 8 but it drops their entire inventory 16:08:57 <02Monkooky> (that was phase shift that used to do that right) 16:12:38 <09gammafunk> no 16:12:48 <09gammafunk> you're thinking of airwalk 16:12:49 <09gammafunk> ??airwalk 16:12:50 <04Cerebot> airwalk ~ air walk[1/2]: Air elemental form spell; was L9 Tm/Air, removed long ago. Made you drop your whole inventory. 16:13:02 <09gammafunk> phase shift was just a tloc that gave you a bunch of EV 16:13:33 <02Monkooky> ah ok, my history knowledge does not go back that far 16:13:53 <09gammafunk> well, that spell predates me playing crawl as well, but it was infamous enough to get mentioned somewhat frequently 16:15:22 <04dracoomega> Yeah, air walk is really old. Like, I think it was removed before DCSS started at all 16:15:44 <06pleasingfungus> yes, it was removed in linleycrawl 16:15:49 <06pleasingfungus> and also it lasted like less than 6 months? 16:16:05 <06pleasingfungus> we have, as a group, spent considerably longer cracking wise about it than it actually spent in existence 16:16:08 <04dracoomega> Haha 16:16:15 <04dracoomega> Impressive 16:16:32 <04dracoomega> Can it really be called a design failure if it had such lasting cultural impact? 16:16:39 <09gammafunk> surely not 16:19:04 <02Monkooky> here's a dumb idea for poltergeist movement tech teleport to items 16:20:05 <02Monkooky> If you constrain it to be only within a few turns of first seeing the item might not even be entirely terrible 16:22:15 <09gammafunk> tracking how recently you've seen an item seems bad though 16:30:25 <02Monkooky> From a UI perspective, I feel like that's pretty easy to solve 16:30:55 <02Monkooky> put some kind of indicator overlay on valid item targets 16:31:53 <02Monkooky> and the duration it's valid should be short enough that you don't really care about items out of LoS cause it's safe to assume they're no longer posessable 16:36:10 <02Monkooky> I don't think I can make a very strong case that this ability actually leads to interesting play tho 16:41:24 <09gammafunk> !aptsum vp 16:41:25 <04Cerebot> -11 16:41:29 <09gammafunk> !aptsum op 16:41:30 <04Cerebot> 4 16:42:59 <09gammafunk> whether Po needs anything further depends on how interesting you find the 5 arbitrary aux slots, I guess. Being undead with good hexes is somewhat notable. Fairly unremarkable apts, but not every undead species needs to be extreme 16:44:56 <09gammafunk> !specieswords Po 16:44:58 <04Cerebot> PoAE PoAl PoAr PoBe PoBr PoCA PoCK PoCj PoDe PoEE PoEn PoFE PoFi PoGl PoHW PoHs PoHu PoIE PoMo PoNe PoRe PoSh PoSu PoWn PoWr 16:45:08 <09gammafunk> another important consideration, as always 16:45:40 <09gammafunk> PoSh is great 16:45:56 <09gammafunk> PoRe and PoDe good 16:47:03 <09gammafunk> > pode (plural podes) > > 1. (obsolete) Toad. > By God ye be a pretty pode […] > 2. (Scotland) A contemptible person; a vile, venomous, or loathsome individual. 16:54:58 <09hellmonk> PoCK^Y 16:55:07 <09hellmonk> getting that weeb contingent 18:02:56 <04dracoomega> Tragically, undead cannot shapeshift T.T 18:31:35 <09gammafunk> big rip 19:14:59 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> IMO scrap the species then 19:15:07 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> if you can't even PoSh then what's the point 19:15:56 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I really don't like the idea of a regular ego that gives immunity to a bunch of random things, sounds like an awful design 19:16:29 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> aux egos so often come at 0 price and "interesting things don't happen" is just the worst type of design to have as a commonplace thing 19:17:27 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> it's fine as a very rare thing that lets you feel lucky when you get mountain boots before abandoning ignis 19:19:26 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> honestly I don't like ash giving exploration trap immunity either but at least that's good flavor and it's a well-defined subset of games 19:20:19 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> not just "I guess shafts aren't a thing in this game because that's what my boots happen to be" happening randomly every few games 19:21:46 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (and yes, see invis is a similar type of property in that it just removes something from the game, but the difference is that it isn't an interesting or tense part of the game) 19:27:47 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I think effects that are purely of the type "feature X can no longer happen" just generally need to be used really sparingly and deliberately 19:33:16 barvitar (L21 OnMo) ASSERT(missile.base_type == OBJ_MISSILES) in 'throw.cc' at line 859 failed. (Elf:1) 19:38:15 <04dracoomega> I... I am not sure I actually knew that mountain boots blocked shaft traps 19:38:15 <04dracoomega> I thought it was just stuff like trample and pull 19:38:15 <04dracoomega> Which felt like mostly very minor value 19:38:15 <04dracoomega> (I love shaft traps, for the record :P) 19:38:15 <04dracoomega> But anti-trample/harpoon shot felt like a minor enough thing that I was sort of surprised it was a whole unrand 19:39:34 <04dracoomega> Certainly wouldn't want shaft protection on a normal ego 19:54:47 <02Monkooky> It stops tele and dispersal traps too 19:55:03 <04dracoomega> ...really? 19:55:19 <04dracoomega> I thought it explicitly says it doesn't affect translocations? 19:58:10 <04dracoomega> Looking at the code, I'm pretty sure it does't 19:59:04 <04dracoomega> (The one other thing I was surprised by was it preventing you from being lured by merfolk avatars) 19:59:29 <04dracoomega> Otherwise it's just resistance to physical knockback and physical pull effects (ie: harpoon shot and AF_DRAG) 19:59:41 <02Monkooky> huh, I thought it was all forced movement 20:00:14 <04dracoomega> (Really, the merfolk one feels weird to me, since it's not a physical force. It's luring the player themselves to choose to walk that way and all) 20:03:25 <02Monkooky> well that's a bit debatable since it doesn't take the player any time 20:04:11 <04dracoomega> I mean, surely it feels like a mental effect rather than a physical one? 20:04:51 <02Monkooky> I think the text is something like 'pulled in by the siren's song' 20:05:44 <04dracoomega> The boot resist message even says that they prevent you from 'being lured by song' 20:09:44 <04dracoomega> At any rate, when I was thinking about a 'stability' ego, I really was just thinking this included trample/knockback/pull and nothing else. I don't think this is nearly as harmful a category of things to be immune to as shafts, but I do take your point about concern of 'interesting thing could happen and now it does not'. I guess the idea was that an ego would be competing against other egos (or randart aux armour, which is 20:09:45 frequently more appealing than any ego) rather than nothing, regarding 'comes at 0 price'. (I do think there's something of a paucity of egos for a bunch of aux armour and it would be nice if there were more of them) 20:34:48 <06pleasingfungus> also possible to add a more traditional resist (eg coinflip chance to be immune to a trample, etc) 20:35:04 <06pleasingfungus> if one's looking for dials 20:53:56 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Honestly, what comes to mind is also to have no "true" resist but instead get a brief burst of AC or EV for a few turns after being forcibly moved, as minor compensation benefits.) 20:54:25 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Most attempts to abuse this would inherently be sacrificing position on the regular, so it sounds unlikely there's any real benefit to doing so...) 21:04:55 <06pleasingfungus> seems fun, but also feels a bit more complex 21:10:22 <06pleasingfungus> my proposed version is probably too weak an effect to compete with other egos, maybe :p 21:33:06 <06regret-⸸nde※> Simplicity is a cost. 21:40:04 <06pleasingfungus> much to consider… 21:51:19 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> even if it was just trample I wouldn't like it on a normal ego, don't see the attraction of just randomly making elephants into yak 2.0 again 21:56:40 <06regret-⸸nde※> Is there really that much difference between boots of [steadiness] resisting a handful of enemies until Zot and boots of flight cutting off multiple branch gimmicks? 22:21:18 <04dracoomega> To be clear, I'm not enthusiastically championing this idea or anything. It was just a thought I'd had, since I would like to see more egos in general. Your point is taken. 22:35:19 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1454-g088a3bca6d (34) 22:57:48 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1454-g088a3bca6d 23:13:57 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1454-g088a3bca6d (34) 23:55:06 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1454-g088a3bca6d