01:30:18 FR: More air spells that actually are air and not lightning. There is like airstrike atm and the odd cloud if you count that. Twisters, vacuum blasts, knockbacks, sandstorm (+earth), hail (+ice, current hailstorm can be removed anyway it's absolute hot dog water and blocks valuable design space), ember/cinder storm/cloud (+fire), air-transmitted 01:30:19 disease (+necro) etc. just go nuts 02:19:08 <06mumra> Air is weird mix mostly of Electricity damage dealing, various cloud spells from other schools (which have to have "air" tagged on because they're clouds, not because of any other mechanical theme), and then Swiftness and Silence which don't otherwise have anything in common with the school 02:20:09 <06mumra> Would make an alternate proposal: rename Air to Electricity. Then it makes sense that there's rElec but no rAir (to go along with rFire and rCold) 02:21:51 <06mumra> Then remove Air school as a requirement of cloud spells, adding other schools if it's plausible (e.g. Mercury Vapours could easily go to Alch/Fire) 02:23:21 <06mumra> Makes it a bit easier to add other cloud spells without Air always having to be there, e.g. if you wanted Sandstorm it can just be Earth or Earth/Conj or even Earth/Tloc 02:23:55 <06mumra> Swiftness and Silence can both easily be themed as Tloc 02:25:30 <06mumra> There was once a reason to have Air and Earth as opposing elements with countertraining but with that gone, Air is not in a really coherent place 02:26:03 <02Monkooky> I don't personally see 'Air lets you do electricity things' as an issue 02:26:17 <02Monkooky> and it's better thematics re: classical elements 02:26:43 <02Monkooky> Removing air as a cloud requirement seems fine even if you don't rename the school 02:27:38 <06mumra> I think the issue is there aren't many air things that air does 02:27:59 <06mumra> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1244945255170703401/image.png?ex=6656f51e&is=6655a39e&hm=ab4c4f137e30a2c47f02681a3dcf9e0df0b4ac95479a86a464a4fb617081f34f& 02:28:32 <06mumra> It's all electricity damage from level 4 up except for fcloud which is ice 02:29:26 <02Monkooky> Silence 02:29:34 <02Monkooky> but yes 02:30:31 <02Monkooky> I guess like going 'we call our electricity magic air magic because classical elements are a fantasy staple' is something I'm quite innured to 02:30:43 <06mumra> Yeah and silence is the only thing that I'm strongly seeing "ok, I'm making the air particles still, that's definitely an Air thing" 02:31:05 <02Monkooky> also where's airstrike in that list? 02:31:27 <02Monkooky> isn't that level 4? 02:31:30 <06mumra> Apologies 02:31:45 <06mumra> yes it's basically the one that's actual direct air damage 02:31:57 <02Monkooky> yeah, again, that doesn't invalidate the point 02:32:15 <06mumra> but in terms of theme/mechanics airstrike is kinda just direct damage that could be in any school 02:57:20 <06regret-⸸nde※> It's very late where we are, so I'm not going to particularly elaborate upon this until waking up later, but: Air Magic actually having more than one mechanical identity to it is a feature, not a bug. Earth didn't have almost anything of interest in it besides "projectiles" or "screw around with deeply janky flavour attacks" for decades, while Ice had no identity besides "reflavoured fire" until the positional magic revamp 02:57:21 that also left it with the least spells of any school. Also, we really don't need more cloud spells- plenty of people complain about Freezing Cloud's relatively complicated targetting effects also being more manual than almost everything else past level 1 left in the game, Meph and Freezing Cloud work despite clouds scaling poorly throughout the game because they're difficult-to-access spell school combos that provide something otherside a bit further 02:57:21 above the curve, and we've got a massive surplus of less-popular clouds of varying elements with non-obvious damage differentials and very minimal repeated uses. 03:00:28 <02Monkooky> I'll additionally note that more cloud spells suffer from severe mechanical limitations- notably, clouds do not have power. A flame cloud on D1 is as strong as a flame cloud on Z5- this is why fcloud's power scaling is so meaningless, and designing against that is nontrivial. 03:00:31 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Also, as easy as it is to flavour air spells in cross-school purposes, without relying on clouds cross-school effects don't have any particular air mechanics to tie them together with. Wind as something seperate mostly suggests movement, which is an aspect extremely heavily covered by translocations in general and something heavily constrained in Crawl's balance paradigms in general.) 03:31:19 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5208-geafff8c3b6 03:40:36 <06mumra> I feel like Alchemy is now even more of a common theme of cloud-producing spells, including e.g. Simulacrum for the cloud the summon leaves behind. Fcloud is the only one not in alchemy... 03:59:56 <02Monkooky> there's only two in alchemy, right? 04:00:06 <02Monkooky> meph and simulacrum 04:00:24 <02Monkooky> (and the simulacrum one is more a technicality than anything) 04:34:40 <06mumra> cigutovi's. then i was incorrectly thinking of mercury vapours as a cloud when it's not (but it sounds like a cloud in flavour) 04:35:27 <06mumra> it's icon even looks like a cloud 😉 05:07:06 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1313-gdbcf8a7 (34) 05:28:53 -!- khadgar7 is now known as khadgar 05:52:45 atomjack2 (L24 CoHu) ASSERT(you.running.turns_passed < buggy_threshold) in 'delay.cc' at line 572 failed. (Excessive delay, 700 turns passed, delay type 9999299) (Depths:1) 07:00:43 on account of having made idle commentary at the expense of the *flavor* of current air magic I feel impelled to defend the *mechanics* 07:00:52 hypothetical True Air Magic would impinge upon earth magic's non-elemental damage, ice magic's DoTs (clouds), and tloc's repositioning design space (all of which air *does* already overlap with, but in much more manageable doses) 07:01:04 by comparison, current air magic has a unique damage type and notable thread of mild self-danger combined with chaining through enemies, yet calling it electric magic (or any synonym) would discard the thread where, unlike the more direct mechanical focus of conjurations, hexes, summoning, tloc, pre-alch poison, etc, (non-fire) elements offer a 07:01:04 disparate smattering of thematic utilities with their X damage type to vary up their toolkit 07:01:15 (I could conceive of a world where gavotte had an air tloc theme like vhi's on both flavor and mechanical grounds, completing a trifecta with swiftness making air the repositioning element, but that's a solution without a problem, as both air magic and gavotte do well as is) 07:49:18 -!- elliptic_ is now known as elliptic 10:41:30 <04dracoomega> Yes, having a flavor theme that offers some flexibility in what sort of effects can be put under the same umbrella is a good thing, imo. (Look at how 'poison magic' historically struggled with mechanical variation on account of 'poison' being a really narrow thing to work with). Air has had some of the greater diversity of useful and interesting things in the same school. (Also: I would say that it's pretty common in RPGs to put 10:41:31 electric effects under the same umbrella, so it doesn't even feel odd - at least to me) 10:42:46 <04dracoomega> Mind you, additional spells that do direct things with wind in some fashion would be fine or even good, provided there's something reasonable for them to do that isn't eaten up by other things. Like, in a broad sense I agree that more wind in air would be nice to have. Hasn't been immediately obvious to me what said things would do, though. (I'm sure something is possible, mind you) 10:45:50 <06regret-⸸nde※> (The history goes that Poisonous Cloud was considerd too close to Freezing Cloud in spawning placement, so it was demoted to level 2 to have anything smoother for Venom Mage than Sting -> Meph -> Olgreb's. Vapours made an extremely short-lived cloud on top of a single enemy, but the cloud was eventually cut for direct poisoning because it only making a visible cloud at very high power yet being restricted away from monsters 10:45:50 already in clouds was too awkward. It probably should get a new spell icon tile eventually to not resemble the rest of the cloud spells.) 10:51:12 <04dracoomega> As I recall, there was timing awkwardnesses where the cloud had a hard time affecting really slow monsters even once unless the formula also resulted in it sometimes remaining long enough to live an actual full cloud on the ground, which was a bit absurd for level 2. Or something like that. 10:51:15 <04dracoomega> I wasn't around for it. 11:01:43 <08nicolae> look, you have to keep players on their toes 11:05:25 <06regret-⸸nde※> Likewise. 11:05:30 <09hellmonk> speicifically, it placed the cloud with 10 aut duration at 20 power or less (with a chance to place a longer one above that), so it would often dissipate before slow monsters got a chance to act. Was very noticeable with worms. 11:06:20 <09hellmonk> I forget if this is the reason it got changed or just minutiae tho 11:08:22 fwiw the odd flavor is less that air *has* electric spells as that 9 of the 16 are electric. I was also thinking of IMB as a potential wind candidate for a general theme of directed speed and momentum over random blinks, but that too is doing just fine where it is (and dealing with start books is unenviable), or new spells in the general line of 11:08:22 those two, but this is all pretty vague "what if" territory, so that's all that I'm to say of that 11:09:43 that is, there's some neat possibility space but it seems all in all fine where air magic is 11:14:51 <04dracoomega> Yes, a lot of translocation spells could flavor-wise be themed as just air, but also: translocations as a school exists and needs things 11:16:04 <04dracoomega> (Frankly, IMB being translocations has some interesting effects, imo, in that there are several species with very high translocations apts that it gives a less common direct-damage option to with more ease than most things.) 12:38:19 <06mumra> You could have mercury vapours have its own CLOUD_MERCURY type to make it work visually, and just special case this cloud to always dissipate when it affects the monster rather than being on a normal timer, and give it the same graphic regardless of power 12:55:31 <04dracoomega> What is even the point of that extra complexity, though? 12:55:42 <04dracoomega> What is it doing that the spell isn't already doing, except with more steps? 13:02:03 <06mumra> hmm yeah. just looking like vapours i guess. so it's vapourware 😂 14:00:15 <06pleasingfungus> seems like you’d just want an animation 14:00:34 <06pleasingfungus> idk what mvap looks like now 15:12:26 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1314-g0e98aa1795: Set proper console colours for statues. 10(51 minutes ago, 5 files, 12+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0e98aa179551 15:37:39 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-1313-gdbcf8a7b3f (34) 16:02:36 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3817 * 0.32-a0-1178-g79a9f120b1: Rename glyphcaster -> scribe 10(13 days ago, 7 files, 13+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/79a9f120b1c8 16:02:36 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3817 * 0.32-a0-1179-g82177666e9: yaktaur scribe: rename yaml file -> scribe 10(25 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/82177666e9c8 16:04:44 New branch created: pull/3834 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3834 16:04:45 03dolorous02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3834 * 0.32-a0-1315-g8bca1cf647: Add a small Abyss vault. 10(5 hours ago, 7 files, 26+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8bca1cf64771 16:14:22 03dolorous02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3834 * 0.32-a0-1315-g00f6944900: Add a small Abyss vault with new decor. 10(5 hours ago, 7 files, 26+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/00f6944900e1 17:10:55 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1315-gb82444e216: Set proper console colours for conduits. 10(32 minutes ago, 4 files, 13+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b82444e21626 20:49:16 horredbonez (L13 MfSk) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Lair:2) 22:35:25 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1315-gb82444e216 (34) 22:58:26 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1315-gb82444e216 23:06:28 Does the new Beogh build up a backlog of challengers if you're in a branch he doesn't send them to? (Pan, The Abyss) 23:07:07 Just got the abyssal rune and 5 runes in pan back to back (then got banished repeatedly by the last pan lord on my way out) 23:07:29 Once I entered the vestibule of hell I started getting almost back to back challengers 23:08:48 on the 4th one now 23:12:51 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1315-gb82444e216 (34) 23:16:43 <04dracoomega> This is more or less true, yes 23:17:19 <04dracoomega> (You won't get them literally back to back - you have to earn a smallish amount of piety inbetween each one, regardless of how much backlog there is - but it does bank piety gained at times a challenge couldn't be issued) 23:17:45 <04dracoomega> They also don't happen on rune floors, for instance, so it's common to get one very shortly after leaving the floor to go back up again 23:55:19 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1315-gb82444e216