03:32:07 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5208-geafff8c3b6 05:07:10 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1309-g198796a (34) 07:27:06 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1310-g2b70ce2205: Add another bird name to artefacts. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2b70ce22050b 09:30:46 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1311-ge9e123dbde: Add fruit/meat lines for gargoyles/statues. 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 24+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e9e123dbde59 09:51:33 FR: Since mixiing nature releases mean spell shools is all the rage lately I think it's finally time for the infamous Ice/Fire spell. Because a. it's not used yet and b. needs more non-earth combos. But what would that be? Steam obviously comes to mind but LoS shenanigans are problematic and we don't just want a copy of a dragon breath. So idea a. 09:51:33 is make it the first spell to dabble in corrosion (idea stolen from Naruto) or b. make it use blind in some in a less sucky way than dazzling spray. Another route could be manipulating heat/cold levels. Freeze the body (slow?) and heat up the equipment (disarm? AC debuff?). Idea kinda stolen from tome 09:57:02 Or it could be the quasi-attempt to revive the long lost water magic (one of the few plot points of the game) 13:32:35 <06regret-⸸nde※> Corrosion's already slated for an Alchemy spell and would most likely fit one of the multiple debuff-centric schools like such before the mix of a school that contains a damage-only debuff and a school that contains slowing-only debuffs. Said natures makes other debuff focuses pretty weird. 13:33:40 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Of course, an Alchemy/Fire/Ice spell could contrast nicely against Hoarfrost and Hellfire being moved to Forgecraft eventually. That was one of the original forms of Fulsome Fusillade, after all.) 14:02:26 <04dracoomega> tileidx_bolt() works in a very silly way and I think after I'm done with Dith I'd like to make it not lookup projectile tiles by first switching on the color of a beam and then doing string-matching on the name of the projectile >.> 14:03:35 <04dracoomega> If a spell has a specific projectile it wants to use, there's no need to switch on color first (that's just a console thing anyway), and also less string-matching instead of checking origin spell. (I realize that there's probably some sources that do not set an origin spell and still want to use it, but I think like 95% of this does) 14:26:32 <06pleasingfungus> oh yeah that function is ancient crimes 14:26:41 <06pleasingfungus> cleaning it up would be a mitzvah 14:42:58 <06mumra> Yes that is a really very silly function 14:51:18 <06mumra> i would maybe add a new enum for cases that don't have an origin spell (or where a given spell uses multiple beam types) 14:52:02 Gandelf (L1 OnHW) ASSERT(valid_cursor_pos(pos.x, pos.y, region)) in 'libutil.cc' at line 404 failed. (invalid cursor position -34,9 in region 2, should be 3,9 in region 3) (D:1) 14:52:28 <04dracoomega> Yes, probably the leftovers can be handled off in a small bit of extra code after a more sensible 'handle 95% of things' block 14:53:00 <06mumra> and there is already beam_type, and possibly tiles could be specified in zap_data? 14:53:46 <04dracoomega> I think the issue there is more that the tile enums don't exist in non-tiles builds, so it's a little more tricky to specify them as members of zap_data 14:54:04 <04dracoomega> I'd rather not have to use an #ifdef in every single zap 14:54:32 <04dracoomega> (But a map of spell -> tile should work pretty well for most things) 14:55:03 <06mumra> i guess mon-data.h gets around it by only adding the tiles if you're doing a tiles build ... dataifying zaps could also allow this situation 14:57:44 <06mumra> btw: i was doing some thinking earlier about the dataified monsters. it struck me that a lot of compilation woe comes from the fact that making any tiny change to a monster .yaml triggers a rebuild of a huge part of the codebase. is there a good reason why the yaml files shouldn't actually be included in the release instead and parsed at startup to populate mon-data dynamically? so maybe only adding/removing monsters would need such a 14:57:45 rebuild, and just tweaking some monster stats wouldn't need any rebuild at all 14:59:30 <06mumra> it seems that datafication loses out on one of the potentially really big benefits of having things in data files instead of code, by turning those data files into actual code anyway 15:04:07 <04dracoomega> Changing just something inside a monster yaml is only rebuilding 7 files for me? 15:04:27 <04dracoomega> (Now, changing the name of a monster enum recompiles a lot) 15:09:24 <06mumra> interesting .. i felt it was a lot more than that. i must have changed other stuff as well certainly 15:09:58 <04dracoomega> Like, if one is renaming a monster then usually that also involves renaming an enum, and is slow. But changing monster stats or other properties is generally not that slow in my experience. 15:11:00 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1312-gd0d00ac9c4: Add a few more Xom staircase messages. 10(9 minutes ago, 2 files, 14+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d0d00ac9c4c7 15:12:35 <06mumra> yeah i think changing monster-type.h at all causes a huge rebuild because monster enums are referenced everywhere 15:15:39 <04dracoomega> Yeah, and it's kind of hard for that not to be the case 15:35:03 <06mumra> spl-data.h already does include tile references so somehow that already works without #ifdef 15:36:55 <04dracoomega> ...huh. It does, now that you mention it. 15:37:40 <04dracoomega> I wonder how that works 15:37:55 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-1311-ge9e123dbde (34) 15:41:02 <06pleasingfungus> iirc this has not been true for years 15:41:10 <06pleasingfungus> i could be wrong 15:41:11 <04dracoomega> Yes, that seems to not be true, yes 15:41:18 <06pleasingfungus> but i think i changed it in 2016 or something 15:41:20 <06pleasingfungus> because enums are nice 15:41:33 <04dracoomega> At the very least, it looks like spl-util.cc includes rltiles/tiledef-gui.h unconditionally, so it must be generating these even for non-tiles builds 15:42:14 <04dracoomega> (Tile enums are included only conditionally in lots of other places, which I guess led me to expect that they didn't exist at all for non-tiles builds) 15:43:50 <04dracoomega> Of course, a bunch of those might be historical and then there was never any need to change that 15:44:56 <04dracoomega> Though even if this does mean that we could include a tile enum for zaps directly in zap-data, I'd guess there's more spells with specified projectile tiles that don't use a predefined zap than ones that don't set an origin spell 16:37:59 Branch concept: The Void / Far Realms 16:38:00 Darkness or monstrosity themed; one way entrance that takes you straight to the bottom floor. You must climb up to escape, hopefully grabbing the rune on the way out. Difficulty similar to the Abyss, possibly a bit easier for certain builds. 16:38:00 Bottom floor is a vast expanse with little cover, with constantly spawning horrors similar to the abyss with an open layout. Higher floors comprised of a maze of long, winding walkways and scaffolding (1-3 wide), with several tiles of 'unnatural darkness' between them instead of walls. Falling into the darkness (willingly or unwillingly) will shaft 16:38:01 the player to the floor below, possibly rearranging the walkways of the floor you left. Structures with walls would be sparse, with most of the floors having a very open LOS. 16:38:01 To prevent flight from trivializing the floors flying over the tiles of darkness for too long could result in 'tendrils of darkness from below' pulling you down forcefully, or have an increasing chance of something incredibly dangerous coming up. Alternatively creatures capable of using airstrike, paralyze, petrification, or other effects that can 16:38:02 make you fall could make this risky. 16:38:02 Darkness or undead themed flying monsters would be the primary threats on higher floors, and would rise from the darkness in hoards to harass players if noise is made to alert them. Shadow dragons or other creatures capable of trampling or knocking you off the edge and to the floor below would be larger threats, as well as stationary monsters like 16:38:03 obsidian statues or ice spires. Confusion effects could potentially cause players to fall off as well. 16:38:03 The rune vault would either be present on the top (guarding the way out) or possibly at the very bottom for an 'orb run' like experience. It would be one of the only walled structures on the upper levels, with a single entrance and no holes inside to intentionally shaft yourself to escape. If on the bottom, it would probably be in the center of the 16:38:04 map with staircases to upper levels on the edges of the map and not in the vault. 16:38:04 Any thoughts? 16:48:08 <06regret-⸸nde※> While the idea of jumping to the bottom and escaping upwards is relatively solid, there's an immediate core issue unaddressed- where is this meant to actually be? It doesn't sound like one can be banished here compared to the Abyss. Crypt, which this has some thematic overlap with (wraiths, constructs), has no rune and plenty of issues in getting people to bother with as is, either, much less with with something in its slot 16:48:08 being more difficult to escape. 16:48:56 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Also, petrifying / paralyzing flying monsters hasn't made them drown or otherwise fall for quite a few versions.) 16:49:19 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Confusion also can' 16:50:12 <06regret-⸸nde※> t make the player fall into water either, because the default gameplay is to just not move or quaff spare curing the vast bulk of the time) 16:53:51 <04dracoomega> By which you mean 'since 0.12' 16:54:13 <04dracoomega> (And even then, it only worked on things with 'wings' or a similar analogue and not on things we imagined being magically floating) 16:54:36 <06regret-⸸nde※> Finally, a branch that punishes gargoyles. 16:58:51 <06pleasingfungus> petrifying/paralyzing flying monsters to instakill them would be really funny, and i would say we should bring it back... if only it wouldn't confuse players about what happens to them 16:59:57 <04dracoomega> I mean, 'emergency flight' is already a very weird gamey mechanic (that exists only because the alternative is even worse) 17:00:10 <04dracoomega> I love being able to fly entirely on the power of "I would prefer not to have water in my lungs" 17:00:58 Oh, I didn't realize those effects didn't cause falling. Just thought it sounded like a fun concept for a branch that could have a portal in the depths somewhere. Purely optional, possibly an alternative for someone who doesn't want to get mutations in the abyss. Been a while since any new branches got added, just kinda craving some more content 17:00:59 since I know all the branches by heart now 17:01:26 <06regret-⸸nde※> Terrain and structural differences are good immediate focuses for making a branch stand out considering how little most branches focus upon such outside of non-diggable walls and two or three liquid types currently, but there's some core issues of positions, monster spread, and theme spread; darkness and monstrosities are pretty heavily emphasized currently with the manifold unholy branches of extended, Abyss, plus lategame 17:01:26 undead and flesh-horrors shared between Vaults / Crypt / Depths. 17:02:52 <04dracoomega> I am not actually opposed to the idea of new branches existing in theory, but it is an extremely tall order of how much content needs to go into them for them to not feel second-fiddle to what already exists. The branches we have have all gone through many, many years of iteration and polish over time, and lots and lots of content has been made for them (monsters, map generators, and vaults, all). Without even answering the 17:02:53 question of "Where does this even go in the game, and why do players want to go here?" 17:03:16 <06regret-⸸nde※> Like, I'd say we still need work on (in no particular order) Orc, Snake, Vaults, Pan, and Zot before I'd want to actually make a new branch, and the obvious completely new themes for branches are "actually fix holies" and "fully flesh out Desolation" first. 17:03:17 Alright. What if you swap the darkness theme for a holy theme, stairs to heaven or something like that. Lots of flying angels, same concept could be applied 17:03:38 As far as I'm aware the only holy themed area is TSO's fortress in pan 17:03:48 and maybe some vaults / wizlabs 17:05:15 <04dracoomega> Yes, holies being fairly sparsely used in the game is something I have pondered from time to time. It's easy to imagine the set expanded and used in a less limited fashion somewhere. (But all of this also swirls in my head together with the vague plans of Finite Pan and Index's hellpan roulette concept) 17:06:12 <06regret-⸸nde※> I've got a rough plan for a V:5-like heavily subvaulted single-floor holy branch as part of Hell-Pan roulette work (and if not for how uneven it is between Tomb and Purgatory it'd be tempting to roulette those two); I'm not really leaping towards filling out more of a branch when it'll barely be enough for a branch end to have, like, twelve monsters?... >_> 17:06:13 Haven't heard of those ideas; I kind of like the idea of making pan more finite 17:07:24 <04dracoomega> For those unaware, I think the basic idea of hellpan roulette was to trim down some of extended by getting one of Hell or Pan 'in full' each game, while there was a single run for the other branch in miniature form. (And I mentioned at one point that it might be sort of cool if the branch that had only 1 rune was Holy themed instead in that case. Basically "The holies won here" in that seed. Use a more varied version of Holypan for, 17:07:25 Would the Hell / Pan roulette be similar to how the S branches in the lair are chosen? 17:07:25 well, Holy Pan, but do something similar for a Hell also somehow?) 17:08:20 I don't really like the idea of trimming endgame that much, I kind of like the challenge of collecting more runes 17:08:26 <04dracoomega> Pan being finite is related to this insofar as if there is any branch alternation like that, Hell and Pan also need to be on more similar footing in terms of threat 17:08:40 <04dracoomega> Though Finite Pan doesn't necessitate branch roulette either 17:09:13 if anything, we need more content in the lair branch area and end game areas after the abyss/pan need to be more threatening on par with the tomb 17:09:17 <04dracoomega> (The general idea there was to have a much smaller number of floors in total, with a little more explicit domain theming among the randlords, and putting the exit to the next realm only in each pan lord's own vault) 17:09:52 <06regret-⸸nde※> Sometimes I'd really like some chance to poll audiences, because there's a pretty huge divide between "people who almost always play extended because they want the game to be as long as possible" and "people who almost never play extended because extended has substantially less variety and most characters grow substantially less after the fourth or fifth rune". 17:10:13 <04dracoomega> Toying with the idea of some floor-wide 'rule' for each random pan lord. Like, "You have entered the domain of Plog, great lord of [noun] and [other noun]. Here, [some floor property]" and so forth 17:10:20 <06regret-⸸nde※> (I've gotten the strong impression the bulk of established communities lean towards the latter.) 17:10:33 Oh, I'm in the 'always play extended' group. I don't do anything but 15 rune games, so I'm probably a rarity 17:11:22 <04dracoomega> (All of that finite Pan stuff is just an early skeletal idea for something further in the future, though) 17:12:14 <06regret-⸸nde※> There have been good efforts to split the Hells and Pan apart already, but I'm not greatly fond of the Hells' remaining monster sets being as limited as they are or the vague obligations to grind out statdrain / temp bad mutations / drain in Pan and Abyss. 17:12:15 Isn't the floor wide effect similar to hell though now? I actually felt hell was more threatening in previous versions than my trunk playthrough (did random hell effects go away in favor of the specific domain effects?) 17:12:51 <06regret-⸸nde※> Hell effects are split in two: one fixed debuff in the realm and one temporary malus on going down a staircase. 17:12:59 ah 17:13:17 <04dracoomega> I used to play extended fairly regularly in the old days (maybe like ~1/3 of runs?) but barely touch it myself in modern Crawl, tbh. It felt like the difficulty increase from the old days was very substantial - enough that I'd want a more specific character to deal with a lot of it than I used to, and so I just kind of fell out of the habit of trying. (I'd definitely do a lot more extended runs if I were ever planning to actually 17:13:18 change substantial things about it, of course) 17:13:51 <04dracoomega> You're right that whatever it is would need to feel meaningfully different than Hell 17:14:05 <04dracoomega> But the basic idea was to somehow make each Pan floor feel more like it was actually the domain of somebody 17:14:06 <06regret-⸸nde※> There's plenty of obvious spaces still left in such realm differentiation (like buffing monsters, or maybe punishing the use of random spell schools?) 17:14:31 <04dracoomega> Instead of a very disposable random piece of infinite 17:14:33 The random hell effects from previous versions were pretty nasty, to the point that I'd rush down staircases to the bottom. I was able to leisurely tab through them this time, but maybe my character was just OP for it 17:14:58 <06dolorous_84348> Regarding fleshing out the Desolation of Salt... thematically, isn't it almost a Salt Hell? 17:15:18 <06regret-⸸nde※> The hells are substantially nastier before their revamp in nearly every aspect. 17:15:18 ^ That's what I was thinking 17:15:19 <04dracoomega> It's sort of weird. The hell end floors are often much easier than they used to be, without the constant hell effects pushing you forward, or the lack of ?blinking working. But the dive down is a lot harder with greatly buffed enemies that are usually in dense clusters. 17:15:59 I like the idea of a holy themed branch where you have to climb to the top for the rune 17:17:22 The climb down didn't feel too rough for me in trunk, though it may have been. The end floors felt slightly more threatening, though only for the bosses and their guards being dangerous 17:17:50 <04dracoomega> Note: I am not talking about changes in this version or even a super recent version 17:18:05 I didn't clear floors on the way down though, just went to the staircase like normal 17:18:06 ah 17:18:06 <04dracoomega> I was away from the game for like 10 years, and let me tell you the difference from then is pretty stark ^^; 17:18:20 I was away ~5 years 17:18:21 <04dracoomega> I think a few of these changes happened over time 17:18:28 Been playing since ~.14 17:18:50 I do a 15 rune every few years then wait for changes and try again 17:19:11 <06regret-⸸nde※> (The climbs down have a pretty different form of heavy randomness these days, in that the bulk of ambushing vaults are excessively aggressive and open, and even without them not every stair placement actually sends two iron golems + two caustic shrike bands + a hell sentinel on arrival.) 17:19:54 <06regret-⸸nde※> ...Significant changes to the rest of the game games happen probably happen thrice as more frequently as changes to extended are managed, of course. 17:20:42 Yeah, extended is a small fraction of most peoples games apart from people who do 15 rune runs 17:20:57 I'd be happy to see more variation in lair branches 17:21:11 <06regret-⸸nde※> Much easier to say than to do. 17:21:44 Wasn't there a beehive / formicid branch before or did that get combined into spider? 17:21:53 <04dracoomega> Another S-branch has the easiest time of any branch placement for 'where does this go and why does anyone enter here?' but the needed work and amount of content is pretty daunting 17:22:23 <04dracoomega> There was a bee branch in very old times, but I promise you that you didn't miss a great deal 17:22:37 probably not if it was cut 17:22:53 <04dracoomega> (I mean, sure, I have fond memories of some parts of it, but they're also literally parts that wouldn't work in the present day, like the infamous 'searching for hidden doors while over deep water' thing >.>) 17:22:55 <06regret-⸸nde※> There were also a sparse number of formicids briefly tried in Spider and then tossed out for not having any good threat gimmicks to them. 17:23:06 seems very similar to spider 17:23:17 <04dracoomega> Not really 17:23:28 not the water + hidden door thing 17:23:35 just the bee vs spider threats 17:23:39 fast + poison 17:23:52 <04dracoomega> (Honestly, the enemies were like 98% killer bees + queen bee + bee larva or somesuch) 17:23:59 <06regret-⸸nde※> Spider barely focuses on poison these days (not that we really need it to). 17:24:26 <04dracoomega> I think the thematic hook of that feels strong even when almost all of the scary things don't use it 17:24:33 I consider the primary threat in spider / snake to be poison. The difference is that spider = fast, snake = slow but ranged 17:24:53 <06regret-⸸nde※> Pharoah ants? Radroaches? Jorogumo? Spark wasps? Ghost moths? 17:25:06 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Orb spiders?) 17:26:40 <04dracoomega> Yeah, looking at the stats, out of the top 8 killers in modern Spider (by total number of kills), only 2 have poison in any capacity. 17:26:42 Radroaches can be annoying, orb spiders feel somewhat less threatening since my last 2 wins several years ago (not sure why?). Ghost moths are a legit threat, and the corrosive guys 17:27:19 Poison isn't a super lethal threat, just an ongoing hinderance 17:27:51 it's present enough in the branch that it feels like a main theme of those two 17:28:39 Would a volcanic / tundra branch be too conflicting with ice caves / volcanoes? 17:29:52 <06regret-⸸nde※> Also with Gehenna, Cocytus, and the repeated use of fire / ice monsters past Lair branches. 17:30:12 I was thinking more in terms of a lair level branch 17:30:45 <06regret-⸸nde※> As opposed to ice caves that already appear in lair branches? 17:31:15 Maybe instead of the lair you get a tundra or volcanic area, with a lair themed bonus branch option 17:32:21 similar in design to the lair but some minor differences in threats present for more early game variation 17:32:43 <06regret-⸸nde※> There's tons and tons of potential branch theme differences not mined by crawl, video-gamey or naturalistic or otherwise, but it doesn't really help to idly imagine such when there's much bigger questions of "how do these monsters both get any use elsewhere while also not just repeating the same heavily iterated upon themes present throughout the rest of the game", "how do we work with new features when luring and stairdancing 17:32:44 have extremely subdued any other attempts at varying up those features", and "who's going to make the fifty vaults needed for this branch." 17:33:22 <06regret-⸸nde※> Crawl's history is littered with incomplete and glacial overhauls. 17:34:54 Honestly I don't like stairdancing as a mechanic, I didn't realize that tactic was considered in branch design 17:35:44 I suppose it makes sense for the vault work. How difficult is it to make a vault, is there boilerplate out there to bootstrap the process? 17:43:42 <06regret-⸸nde※> Vaults aren't inherently difficult to work with, but their needed presence and monster variety needs exert significant pressure on branch. What a branch needs before anything else is about 14 monsters and the shareable gimmicks to differentiate them, split across three tiers of power, plus some reasonable monster re-use presence from earlier in the game as weaker spawns (c.f. black mambas in Snake, boulder beetles in Spider, 17:43:42 hydras in swamp) and a few positions to place them later on (c.f. tyrants in Gehenna and Depths, merfolk and spark wasps in Depths, entropy weavers in Vaults, elves shared between Elf and Vaults). 17:44:37 <06regret-⸸nde※> (If we get another branch and it shoves its vaults full of elves and abyss monsters for guests again I'll drop a bucket of water on nicolae-.) 17:49:03 <06pleasingfungus> draco: i completely agree it's weird and gamey and unintuitive, which is why i'd be especially concerned about anything that made it even more confusing for players 🙂 17:51:01 <04dracoomega> I guess 'It instakills things that aren't the player but the player doesn't get instakilled' feels like I'd expect to be the default in most cases because player instakills are bad. (This also applies to, say, Finisher and Throatcutter) But, to be clear, this is not me advocating for letting you petrify harpies to death again. It was just a remark ^^; 17:51:46 <04dracoomega> It's just that in most cases it's easier to handwave away an instakill by just 'not happening' but you have to explain what you're doing above water 17:57:34 <06pleasingfungus> i'm not sure players intuit that, though 17:57:49 <06pleasingfungus> like players are definitely concerned by finisher and throatcutter as well 🙂 17:57:51 <06pleasingfungus> perfectly reasonably! 17:58:01 <04dracoomega> In most genres of games I'd expect yes, but there's a long roguelike tradition of player instakills 17:58:19 <04dracoomega> That could easily mislead people 😛 17:58:54 <04dracoomega> (Because, yes, in Nethack and probably an alarming number of other traditional roguelikes, Finisher could just kill you) 17:59:33 I prefer anything that instakills has some counterplay. Kinda sucks when you just get put into a position where nothing you could have done would prevent the loss 17:59:39 <04dracoomega> (I admit, the first time I ran into it, I still double-checked that it couldn't. Like, if I'd had to bet money on whether or not it could, I would have said it couldn't, but... just want to make sure, y'know? :P) 18:01:41 <04dracoomega> Counterplay is good, yes. (But also: a lot of Nethack instakills have 'counterplay' in terms of 'things you could definitely have done not to die that way', but it turns out it's also helpful if the counterplay is interesting and the failure state isn't 'fatfingered one key once' ^^; ) 18:47:21 Testing the Beogh rework, first apostle just came to challenge me on D:8 and has the +12 Glaive of prune. Can i take his weapon and still recruit him? 18:48:34 <06dolorous_84348> No. You can't disarm apostles. 18:48:56 interesting to know they can come with high level artefacts equipped 18:50:48 <06dolorous_84348> Yes, it does keep things interesting. 18:56:25 Are followers protected from effects of artefacts you wear (like the skin of Zhor, Singing Sword, etc)? 18:56:57 Well, seems like it's a no for the skin of Zhor 18:57:19 They don't seem to care about it though it is slowing them 18:58:10 <06dolorous_84348> I'm not certain. Good to know on Zhor, though. 19:07:20 Feels a bit hard to keep apostles alive unless they spawn armored with polearms or other ranged options 19:11:34 Perhaps some abilities to support / heal apostles would help with that. The orc priest followers are unreliable 19:17:25 <04dracoomega> You have a (fairly sizeable) chance of healing your injured apostles when you do damage yourself 20:05:42 Oh, I didn't know that 20:07:09 Possible Beogh bug: Leaving apostles in a cleared ice cave (had them wait at the start using T) causes them to due. You gain vengeance status, but there's nothing to kill. Assuming they'll revive after a while anyways, but leaving an optional branch probably isn't meant to kill followers 20:09:47 <04dracoomega> Are you... sure they didn't actually die to something in there without you being around? 20:10:08 <04dracoomega> (Not only had I not heard any reports of this before, but I just tested for curiousity's sake and was not able to reproduce) 20:10:47 I cleared the cave with them up to the ice clouds, had them wait in the beginning area before the clouds to go in and finish / get the loot 20:11:07 maybe they wandered into clouds somehow...? I only got the vengeance status after exiting though 20:11:57 <04dracoomega> The timing there is curious, but I appear to be able consistently enter portals with apostles, leave them there, exit, and recall them properly afterward 20:12:22 it's possible I just got unlucky, just strange 20:12:49 maybe I missed a death yak or something and it found them before I left? 22:33:04 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1313-gdbcf8a7b3f: Replace duplicate virtue name in artefacts. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dbcf8a7b3fcd 22:35:32 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1312-gd0d00ac9c4 (34) 22:58:53 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1313-gdbcf8a7b3f 23:13:08 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1313-gdbcf8a7b3f (34) 23:46:28 Revised my opinion on Beogh followers, they're actually quite durable of you use axes and have a summoner follower to distract with meat shields. They also come back fairly quickly at max piety. Blood for blood is MUCH more powerful than I expected, capable of completely steamrolling vaults; I was able to sit back and let them solo the swamp and 23:46:29 snake vaults, as well as the final floor of the actual vaults with them. By keeping enemies in LOS you can keep the army going long enough to walk around the rune vaults and clear them, and probably have your followers resurrected by the time they get dismissed. I expect the power to taper off sharply once torment comes into play though 23:47:29 Just steamrolled the elf vaults with them as well 23:55:35 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1313-gdbcf8a7b3f