03:31:51 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5199-gb287095a7e 04:15:11 Hi all, would this be the right place to ask about issues getting dgamelaunch/crawl setup, apologies if not 04:36:46 <05icoson> Yes, most of the ppl who know anything about that look at this channel 04:36:57 <05icoson> Responses can lag a bit 04:41:28 Great stuff thanks, I have been following through Advil's guide to getting a dgl ubuntu server setup and have reached a stage where I have the webtiles server running alongside apache but I am unable to connect to the server through the domain name. I can curl localhost:8080 and see the lobby display in console but curl domain.name:8080 returns a connection refused error. Do I need to add a listen 8080 line in ports.conf or does python handle that 04:41:28 on it's own? 04:43:18 I have 8080 open in the firewall 05:18:41 Panjera: Sure it's not just configured only to listen on localhost? 05:19:34 I thought I had changed that in the config files, will double check now, thanks 05:20:04 (If it's there on localhost:8080 you don't need to tell anything to listen on 8080) 05:20:53 Thanks for confirming! I can see python is listening on 8080 so figured it was all good 05:21:17 dgamelaunch-config/config.py seems like an obvious place to start, it begins bind_address = "127.0.0.1" 05:28:23 Thank you for the pointer, binding the domain properly did the trick! 05:30:28 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1140-g12fa8b1 (34) 06:42:23 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1141-gdf15be1b29: Make the chaos spawn temple transparent. 10(13 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/df15be1b29cf 06:53:03 03dolorous02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3791 * 0.32-a0-1142-gd0b0a680e3: Add rare fire-themed temple to Ignis and Makhleb. 10(10 days ago, 1 file, 35+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d0b0a680e35a 07:17:33 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1142-g2afa0c46cb: Fix outdated Dvorak keybind (christakahashi). 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2afa0c46cb43 07:39:57 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.32-a0-1143-g12f0f65bdd: Remove unused function in header 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/12f0f65bdd24 07:39:57 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.32-a0-1144-g6a5d6975f0: Give serpent form rDrown (acrobat) 10(30 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6a5d6975f0bf 09:40:41 <02sentei> So I made a PR to nerf the quicksilver breath by comparing it to other breaths after some discussion with people from my tournament team(enegeticocto/flugkiller/sergey) and other experienced people, there has also been discussion in the roguelikes discord matching the sentiment that purple draconian shifters are the most dangerous ones amongst the different jobs. the PR to reduce the breath damage was rejected, and that's fine because it 09:40:42 might not the right point to focus on anyway. The colours give a single pip of elemental resistance for the draconians, reducing the damage of a select element by 50% - 66% they all retain the characteristic weakness to hexes. The purple colour on the other hand basically gives hex immunity. A comparison of chance to effect a regular and a purple draconian with a hex wand at various evo levels: 5 evo: 44%/0%, 10 evo: 54%/0%, 15 evo: 62%/1%, 20 evo: 09:40:42 69%/2%. Additionally when rejecting the pr, regret-index stated that: "Using current-version and trunk Zot death statistics to include proteans at a reasonable sample size of over 900 deaths, quicksilvers are 15th, shifters are 16th, and base purple draconians are tied for 22nd well below said yellow and black draconians." This sample size is too small, a larger set such as recent or recentish shows purple draconians pulling well ahead of the other 09:40:43 colours: !lg * zot recent ckiller=a_draconian s=killer 298 games for * (zot recent ckiller=a_draconian): 80x a purple draconian, 67x a black draconian, 44x a yellow draconian, 41x a red draconian, 39x a green draconian, 25x a white draconian, 2x a grey draconian I would also like to mention the indirect kill count which is provided by dispelling whatever buff the player might have in the chaotic zot situations which are very rarely 1v1 with the 09:40:43 monster, and matter most specifically when it's not a 1v1. This will not show up in the kill statistics but it is a big part of the danger. 09:40:44 <02sentei> Now, to describe the strongest combo of the purple colour and the shifter job. Other draconians walk forward or stay in place and do their action, this makes them relatively easy targets which can be dealt with, it also makes them survive for less time as they are always in range of the player once they are reached barring any other interference. Shifters on the other hand have blink away and blink player to allow for them to live longer 09:40:44 and allows them more time to use their irresistible quicksilver breath. Blink allies encircling and blink player also is able to put the player into a position where more dangerous monsters can attack them, with the player having no recourse to stop this except for los control. This increases their danger by a lot without directly increasing their kill count. The shifter job is a similar type of monster to a berserk moth, doom hound, tormentor - 09:40:45 monsters which don't have big kill counts but are considered dangerous. A common weakness they have is low will, which the purple shifter doesn't have. So it is either the exceedingly high will or the irresistible damage from the breath which also dispells all buffs that makes purple draconians and the most dangerous and the purple shifter combo even further over the top in power. enegeticoctos solution was to nerf the breath damage as a shifter is 09:40:45 able to even solo the player with the correct blink sequence. My solution is to give the shifter another colour, I chose knight but now think that purple would suit the monk more as it's flavour is abandoning magic for martial skills. Anything except a purple shifter would be fine. Would anyone among the devs agree that purple shifters are the strongest and deserve adjustment? 09:41:00 <02sentei> (sorry for the walls of text) 09:52:24 <06pleasingfungus> i always appreciate a good writeup 🙂 10:38:25 <02Monkooky> I did take a look at the pr- don't think I'm gonna have an opinion on the job swap, but you prolly need to take a closer look at the vault changes 10:39:03 <02Monkooky> e.g. three-ring circus has shifters and purple dracs still 10:48:28 <06regret-⸸nde※> Green draconian shifters inherently work at odds with themselves: none of the other draconians are poison resistant, so green draconian monks trying to move immediately onto a player to melee them as fine, while green draconian shifters will be perfectly willing to blink all of their allies into the poison they placed directly. 10:51:18 <02sentei> Yes I did think about just green draconian not being the best for a shifter, if more job colour switches would happen, I believe shifter would be nicest to combo with yellow or black. 10:51:20 <06regret-⸸nde※> (The monster version of green draconian breath probably could be adjusted to get closer to player ones, I guess? Only do a line cloud version and check poison resistancce on impact?) 10:51:47 <02sentei> but just putting purple on knight feels like it still might be too strong 10:51:56 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Err. To then confuse.) 10:52:53 <02sentei> Knight could be white, since it has throw icicle and bolt of cold so it's already cold themed like scorcher is fire themed 10:59:19 <06regret-⸸nde※> (I'm busily trying to extract more statistics at the moment. I do have to mostly note that regardless of whatever invisible proportion of kills purple draconian breath manages, draconian knights have twice as much recent direct kills as the next type and half of that is from lightning breath, so I doubt that black draconian shifters will be that meaningful a nerf either.) 11:18:33 <06regret-⸸nde※> (...Yes, yes, I did look up further stats and most of those draconian knights are from ice caves. They're still higher than the rest by a meaningful amount.) 11:18:57 <02sentei> this query does show some of what you say: 11:19:00 <02sentei> !lg * zot recent ckiller=~draconian s=killer 11:19:04 <04Cerebot> 877 games for * (zot recent ckiller=~draconian): 175x a black draconian knight, 112x a green draconian monk, 81x a red draconian scorcher, 80x a purple draconian, 75x a yellow draconian annihilator, 67x a black draconian, 64x a white draconian stormcaller, 61x a purple draconian shifter, 44x a yellow draconian, 41x a red draconian, 39x a green draconian, 25x a white draconian, 2x a red draconian ... 11:19:32 <02sentei> Reasons for the top placement of knights is because they have indeed a relatively strong breath, but the main thing is that they have haste which allows them use it much more than usual, which is why I believe it takes the first spot. the monks are 2nd due to just being a light version of an orb guardian 11:19:59 <02sentei> but the shifter are the real enablers to allow for you to get into the bad situations 11:20:11 <06regret-⸸nde※> Provisionally, I might be fine with the moving around of purple shifter, green monk, yellow annihilator to purple monk, green annihilator, yellow shifter as a total set, then giving monster yellow draconians an acid aux the way monster green draconians have the stinger aux since shifters should still have some way to actually kill by themselves. I'm not entirely convinced this'll be much of a meaningful nerf, since, yes, 11:20:12 monks do have quite meaningful melee damage. 11:21:42 <02sentei> green does gain a poison attack already 11:21:44 <02sentei> @?draconian monk 11:21:44 <04Cerebot> green draconian monk (q) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 94-128 | AC/EV: 7/20 | Dam: 35(flank), 20, 15, 15(poison:32-64) | weapons, items, doors, fighter, cold-blooded | Res: will(40), poison | Corpse | XP: 1306 | Sp: poisonous cloud (3d10) [!AM, !sil, breath] | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 11:22:00 <06regret-⸸nde※> Yes, that is what I said. 11:22:09 <02sentei> ah yellow, alright 11:25:40 <02sentei> Regarding the swap, I would be OK with such an implementation, and could update the pr to what you suggested 11:25:51 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Swapping black draconian knights and white stormcallers' classes might also help with draconian knights being top there, though I'd like white draconian breath to not be quite so low compared to ice dragons considering the recent draconian breath overhaul. Feels rather seperate of the issue.) 11:27:11 <06regret-⸸nde※> Let me discuss with Draco once she wakes up and I might go through with this myself to make sure vaultwork is properly handled. 11:27:27 <02sentei> No problem. 11:50:15 <06regret-⸸nde※> (...While Draco continues to sleep, does not any other dev have comments on, uh, adjusting half or 5/6ths of draconian colour to class combinations?) 12:02:13 <06pleasingfungus> is it a problem for some dracos to be more dangerous than others? 12:10:14 <04dracoomega> Yes, that was actually going to be one of my first questions here, now that I am awake and catching up 12:10:37 <06regret-⸸nde※> I don't particularly think it is, but it's a chance to address some other fronts (monster yellow and green draconian auxes being inconsistent, the electric colour not getting the class named stormcaller).... 12:10:40 <04dracoomega> Like, let's say that we agree that they are the most dangerous draconian (which, across the various things they do, may be possible). Why is it bad that some things are more dangerous than other things? 12:11:02 <12ge0ff> purple shifters is the nastiest colour+job combo by far. they (and black draconians if you don't have rElec) overshadow others 12:11:32 <04dracoomega> I'd agree it's a problem if something is so out of line that it's basically harmless or that they're clearly demolishing a disproportionate amount of people, but I'm not yet convinced the latter is the case? 12:12:10 <04dracoomega> And I don't just mean statistically. I realize blink allies encircling is hard to track by stats (but it did also get meaningfully weaker in 0.32, too) 12:12:23 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Purple breath knocking off the dimensional anchor debuff they struggle to apply in the first place...) 12:15:41 <04dracoomega> I mean... shifters are mostly dangerous when they have other things to surround you with, at which point they are often not able to breathe at you eiether) 12:15:53 <04dracoomega> Since other stuff is in the way 12:16:27 <04dracoomega> I feel like saying 'shifters can 1v1 the player if they get lucky with blinks' up there is implying some incredibly dubious tactics on the player's part, or rather extreme bad luck 12:27:18 <12ge0ff> i bet knights are at the top because of invisibility and haste: a bunch of players w/o sinv just don't realize that something hasted is quickly killing them until it's too late (happened to me too) 12:27:55 <04dracoomega> That is possible, but really with haste they're just very consistent sources of damage (and elec bypassing 1/2 AC also helps against endgame characters) 12:28:24 <04dracoomega> Not quite as bursty a top-end as annihilators, but more consistent about applying 12:35:18 <12ge0ff> > Why is it bad that some things are more dangerous than other things? A group of draconians with a shifter is much more dangerous than a group w/o one. Slightly exaggerating, currently it's "kill purples first and then lazily tab the others". Having a more balanced set of colour+job combos could help draconian bands to stay a relevant threat for longer. 12:35:54 <06regret-⸸nde※> Is it somehow bad that a support role is successful at doing support? 12:36:01 <04dracoomega> Actually, I'm pretty sure I kill the shifters last most of the time 12:36:24 <04dracoomega> Like, if they're tossing other dangerous things on me, I'd rather get rid of the dangerous things first 12:36:31 <04dracoomega> Or be somewhere else where I can't get surrounded 12:36:50 <04dracoomega> Since shifters frankly feel pretty harmelss without support (which is fine! They're support monsters.) 12:37:06 <06regret-⸸nde※> (This all feels sort of silly to me anyway, since Zot is one of the endbranches that places the most corridors and is more diggable for free corridors than Vaults, Crypt, or inside the vaults of Depths.) 12:40:50 <04dracoomega> I did try to search up past conversation in #dcss on this topic, since it was said that it had recently come up and I did not recall it this. Did eventually find a conversation about draconian shifter balance from a few months back. And I have to say, seeing people advocating for them to not be purple alongside arguments like "If their will was like other draconians, they wouldn't stand out because then you could just hex them before 12:40:51 they did anything" is not actually an argument that taking away their will bonus is good for the game, as far as I'm concerned, tbh >.>) 12:44:09 <12ge0ff> it feels like calling Blink Allies Encircling a support spell is not fair: it clearly belongs to the "*#%k the player" category 🙂 12:44:34 <02sentei> I discussed them being a support character with flugkiller earlier, A shifter's support abilities would not be impacted by switching the colour. They will still blink around and blink encircling, but will not have the irrestible and dispelling bolt as well in their arsenal. I liked the yellow colour for them as it further supports other enemies killing by applying corosion 12:45:11 <02sentei> and regarding removing the will bonus, the same question can then be raised for berserk moths or doom hounds 12:45:42 <02sentei> shouldn't they also not be able to be countered with hex wands? 12:46:39 <06regret-⸸nde※> Those are a completely different matter of monster willpower being... rather inconsistent throughout the game, but somewhat consistently low on "beasts and animals" in general. 12:46:39 <04dracoomega> That feels a little like a strawman to me. (Although for the record, doom hound will being so low is not something I am personally fond of) 12:47:45 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Doom hounds could be moved from Will 20 to Will 60 since the latter does have death scarabs, though.) 12:48:47 <02sentei> I didn't intend it as a strawman, I see the shifter job as a support monster, similar to moths and hounds, but the kit is fill with too much power when supported by the purple color, which as a base colour is the strongest 12:49:57 <04dracoomega> Like, I am not saying that everything should have more will because that makes them harder, even if it obviously would make them harder. I was just side-eying arguments from the last time I could see draconian shifter balance being discussed that boiled down to "This change would make them much lower-relevancy" which in a vacuum feels like a strike against an idea. (I only bring this up at all since I was trying to find what 12:49:58 conversations in the other channel you were referring to earlier) 12:50:28 <04dracoomega> Maybe I missed something 12:52:36 <06regret-⸸nde※> (There's wider systemic issues about hex wands being so binary and having dozens of wand charges that imperfectly-but-decently work against a spree of rather random resist numbers past the midgame, I guess.) 12:53:30 <04dracoomega> For that matter, I wonder if everyone is overlooking the part where Blink Allies Encircling in 0.32 already now only blinks 3-6 monsters at once instead of 8 12:53:59 <04dracoomega> Which surely is relevant 12:55:16 <12ge0ff> > This change would make them much lower-relevancy We could look at it from another angle: is it possible to shift colour + job combos around in such a way that other draconians become more relevant and the whole group of them becomes "better" (whatever that means)? 12:59:18 <12ge0ff> like, purple monks would still be scare and greens would finally do something when they become annihilators 13:09:24 <06regret-⸸nde※> (If there's any irrelevant draconians, it's stormcallers having friendly fire issues even after the Upheaval tracer was fixed, and they're a terrible fit for purple theme-wise anyway.) 13:17:46 <12ge0ff> fr: give stormcallers flash freeze to make them relevant 13:27:50 -!- terminaldweller_ is now known as terminaldweller 13:48:48 <04dracoomega> With player Upheaval recently being changed to not hurt the player, I wonder if it makes sense to just give that property to Stormcallers as well 13:48:56 <04dracoomega> Which would be a minor buff, at least 13:49:22 <04dracoomega> (Of course, it would still hurt their summons, so it's still not the most synergistic, really) 14:15:23 <02Monkooky> Hmm I think stormcaller upheaval not hurting the player might actually be a nerf 14:16:29 <06pleasingfungus> no way 14:20:57 <04dracoomega> ...I was about to ask "How could this be?", entirely missing the joke altogether 15:12:28 <12ge0ff> @regret-⸸nde※, I got 5 manuals of Summonings from hellbinder's wizlab, which was last changed in aef1140. This feels a bit too many 15:13:36 <12ge0ff> (especially for my gnoll) 15:14:40 <02sentei> Regarding lowering will making them much less relevant - the player doesn't always have the time to deal with a monster when it appears while shifters can disrupt the battlefield instantly due to all abilities having full screen range, so interesting situations will still continue to happen. And shifters would stand out because the player is incentivized to do an action that is irregular and smart, such as using a wand, which has a 15:14:40 failure rate, possibly requiring multiple turns, during which other things can be happening and this is if talking about the hypothetical optimal player, which most are not. Their Blink encircling is not the only relevant ability either, the blink other can be just as bad in terms of the new position you can end up. There are already many top tier threats like liches, oofs, elec golems which all are hex immune. As it is right now the draconian shifters 15:14:41 stand among them instead of amongst the draconians both because it is basically hex immune, and because it can put you closer to all of them using 2 different abilities. So I would like to see them brought down to a strong draconian level and agree with ge0ff that the colour reshuffling would be a nice way to add more spice to the other jobs while maintaining the shifter as the top threat but at least counterable. 15:20:39 <06regret-⸸nde※> The commit in question... shifts it from a 4% item weight to a 6.38% item weight in a split pile of 11 items. Getting more than three just sounds like luck to me, though it wouldn't be hard to nsubst this closer to a reasonable average reward quality regardless. 15:37:40 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-1144-g6a5d6975f0 (34) 16:26:01 03regret-index02 07* 0.32-a0-1145-g7bd66db0f0: Give monster yellow draconians the players' acid bite aux 10(62 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7bd66db0f078 16:26:01 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1146-g87abc831c1: Buff Draconian Stormcallers (and white draconians in general) a little 10(3 minutes ago, 4 files, 17+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/87abc831c1b7 17:15:04 03regret-index02 07* 0.32-a0-1147-ge769ff8643: Actually make monster yellow drac bite damage weaker than green stingers 10(15 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e769ff864344 17:46:00 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1148-g44bfc332e5: Add another chaos name to artefacts. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/44bfc332e556 18:28:01 <04dracoomega> !crashlog dilly 18:28:03 <04Cerebot> 7. dilly, XL21 CoCK, T:82588 (milestone): https://crawl.project357.org/morgue/dilly/crash-dilly-20240512-012350.txt 18:28:06 <04dracoomega> What in the world is this error? 18:28:26 <04dracoomega> (And does it mean it's server-side?) 18:40:25 <06pleasingfungus> wow 21:40:55 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1149-g8b4cc811b7: Don't crash on forcibly displacing the player from a wall (acrobat) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8b4cc811b7ea 21:43:13 04Build failed for 08master @ 8b4cc811 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/9048891103 21:57:00 <04dracoomega> Huh, what's going on thee? 21:57:11 <04dracoomega> Network error, maybe? 22:35:22 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1149-g8b4cc811b7 (34) 22:44:53 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1150-g5152ae1ce3: Prevent a crash from casting Hellfire Mortar on level boundary (acrobat) 10(2 minutes ago, 2 files, 9+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5152ae1ce375 22:58:07 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1150-g5152ae1ce3 23:24:19 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1150-g5152ae1ce3 (34) 23:42:15 iamserjio (L18 OpWn) ASSERT(in_bounds(source)) in 'beam.cc' at line 737 failed. (source = (53,0)) (Snake:4) 23:55:31 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1150-g5152ae1ce3 23:56:14 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1151-g7caecd69e6: Fix a crash with monsters aiming Hellfire Mortar near the level border 10(37 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7caecd69e6e8