03:10:59 <06m​umra> Thanks for the thorough review. I'll deal with the numbers first as it's the most complex issue to discuss (although actually adjusting the formula is pretty straightforward, once we can find the right one). As you say the rest of the issues are pretty minor. Where you're seeing these weird differences in how it scales with distances, and the "cliff" you mention, here we're seeing underlying nuances of how to-hit works generally; 03:10:59 normally you wouldn't notice how this scales as the numbers shift very slowly through a game, but where the cliff "moves" in terms of range is entirely influenced by monster EV. If something has 0 EV you can still hit them no matter how much we tank your to-hit, whereas if your to-hit is lower than the EV then you're never going to hit them. So this cliff is reached as the to-hit scales down until it's close to the monster's EV. (This result does seem 03:10:59 quite realistic. Something small and fast becomes impossible to hit quickly if you can't quite see where they are, whereas large and slow things are a lot easier to luck out at a bit of distance.) A perhaps simpler way to do this would be just give an additional failure chance, how floundering works, something like d/(d+1) chance to fail: 50% in melee, rising to 87% at LOS. (Which to me then raises the question from yesterday of why would we include 03:10:59 one failure chance but not the other? I feel you have to communicate the blind fail chance in some way since it varies). But then player skill and monster EV have less impact on the effect. The nice thing about the current version is it does seem to have a consistently impactful effect whatever stage of the game you're at, as generally EV is going up (and very easy enemies are still much easier than current depth stuff). It's maybe worth looking at 03:10:59 it in reverse: what exactly would we want the numbers to look like? (At different stages of the game, and against different types of EV). And then work backwards from there to find a formula. 03:14:06 <02M​onkooky> 'generally EV is going up' is a fairly dangerous preposition I think 03:16:30 <02M​onkooky> Notably, killer bees have 18 EV, tying shard shrikes and all varieties of spriggan 03:17:26 <02M​onkooky> They have less EV than OOFs, but I'm not sure if any other enemy in a 3-rune game beats them out 03:19:29 <06m​umra> Yeah that's fair. Maybe "average EV if high-tier threats is going up"? (But not as extremely as I was kind of implying) 03:19:58 <02M​onkooky> I don't even know that that's true! 03:20:28 <02M​onkooky> Zot, it holds- but I think the average EV of Vaults and Depths is sub 10 03:21:33 <02M​onkooky> I don't think EV really increases at all with tier of monster; it seems to be almost entirely a function of monster class 03:21:54 <06m​umra> Yeah I think that point was not so valid 03:23:48 <06m​umra> Still the forumula means that even with really high skill you can't ignore the effect, because high EV things can still be a problem even at short range. (Whereas, some flatly rising absolute modifier on to-hit would be ignorable with sufficiently high accuracy) 03:24:30 <02M​onkooky> I am, from looking at the numbers DracoOmega posted, kinda worried that this will encourage way too much math 03:25:10 <02M​onkooky> Because it seems very unintuitive and also very important to know how much accuracy will be improved by taking a single step forward 03:26:13 <06m​umra> Well it's not math you can even really do since to-hit is so inscrutable 🙂 Yeah all you can do is see how bad it is currently, and know that moving one step closer will help you a lot 03:27:03 <02M​onkooky> But you don't know that second thing 03:27:09 <02M​onkooky> it might help you a lot 03:27:25 <02M​onkooky> it might take you from dogshit hit chance to still dogshit hit chance 03:27:31 <06m​umra> I'd be really hesitant to include more numbers in the readout, but you could do sort of 13% to hit (35% normally) so they at least know how much the blindness is penalising them 03:30:41 <02M​onkooky> that's still not great- consider, for example, the (65) 56, 50, 43, 34, 18, 2, 2 hit chances Without seeing the table (because you don't wanna do the math) does knowing the original hit chance tell me if moving one step closer will improve my hit chance from 2% to not 2%? 03:32:16 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5199-gb287095a7e 03:32:19 <06m​umra> I mean either way at 2%, taking one step forward is not going to help. 18% is still terrible 03:33:50 <06m​umra> But if you know your hit chance is normally 65, then it'd be a reasonable assumption that at least halving the gap is going to give you rather better odds 03:35:45 <02M​onkooky> Right, you can make broad assumptions like 'if I take 4 steps forward I can get better odds of hitting', but... that's way less information than I want if I'm in a scary spot and I want to e.g. make use of limited wand charges against a melee threat while blind 03:37:08 <02M​onkooky> Exact numbers aren't needed, but like- the (79) 74, 70, 67, 61, 52, 36, 7 I can take two steps forward and get fairly acceptable hit chance. But it's nearly impossible to know that without doing the math 04:03:48 <02s​entei> Instead of inventing something new, could it possibly reuse the innaccuracy mechanic which is still ingame on the amulet of air? You could more easily display it in the hud as a temp effect to display its strength, something like Innac -5,-10,-15 depending on distance. I think the effect being linear still effects the chance to hit non-linearly but will be easier to know by how much the player is being affected more clearly. 04:09:24 <06m​umra> I'm thinking of a slightly different formula (scaling the to hit down towards the target's EV rather than towards zero) which is easy enough to test and might produce better results for all concerns 04:10:00 <06m​umra> But yeah I am also wondering about a simpler scale as well (e.g. X at 1 distance, Y at 2 distance, Z at 3+ distance) 04:11:09 <06m​umra> The thing though about have flat accuracy penalties though is it is then completely ignorable with enough weapon skill (or completely debilitating at low skill) 04:18:05 <06m​umra> (It is not really inventing anything new either way. It applies the modifier in post_roll_to_hit_modifiers which is where inaccuracy is also applied. But the inaccuracy function is scanning for an artefact and has no knowledge about the distance to the attacker, so it seems harder to reuse that just adding an extra formula in post_roll). 04:35:42 <02s​entei> Yeah, that seems fine in that case. Aside from that, I agree with dracoomega, that it shoudnt affect scroll reading, as this will overshadow any accuracy penalty in terms of mechanics change. It was a similar case when the initial no scroll mutation was allowed in the regular pool, it instantly became the strongest one. 04:35:57 <02M​onkooky> I'm feeling like the d/(d+1) fail rate seems more promising than anything else 04:36:50 <02M​onkooky> also yeah blurry vision was an unreasonably bad mutation 05:16:32 <06m​umra> Yeah that was an omission, it was a vestige from when this started as a now totally unrelated spell idea. I think i do recall dracoomega questioning it before and I'd forgotten it was even there 🙂 05:23:44 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1118-g635abf799e: Fix wording in formicid no-shafting message. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/635abf799eac 05:29:58 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1117-g81c5165 (34) 06:14:55 <06m​umra> @dracoomega Regarding the changes in to-hit previews: I spent quite a long time at this point looking at both the actual to-hit logic in as well as the simulated versions, and I'm very strongly now firstly that the original was doing a pretty reasonable job of estimating things, except for the specific bugs and omissions, and secondly that the adjusted version is doing exactly the same thing but with fixes and more consistency. However 06:14:56 it's quite difficult to prove and I'm wondering about Lua scripting some kind of simulation to run 1000s of attacks with different setups and find out how close actually an actual % is to the estimated ones. It'd be worthwhile in any instance but not so easy an effort 🙂 unless something close already exists. My inclination would be to get it merged as work on some further validation later (and keep an eye on things if people find it feels off in real 06:14:56 play - although given nobody noticed the Umbra bug in however long I don't think human perceptions of odds are good enough to tell!) 06:22:28 <06m​umra> The flavor key - was at one point going to have a blindness_flavour enum to choose between visual effects as there's a vague plan for an improved visual effect using semi-transparent tiles. But obviously i didn't do that yet so ended up not using the key. That's still on the backburner but I feel happy the visual is good enough for initial release and see what the wider feedback is like. It was also almost free in terms of overhead as 06:22:29 using an existing system and now new graphics (and as a bonus fixed some more things along the way). 07:34:40 JettDanger (L17 DjIE) Crash caused by signal #11: Segmentation fault (Spider:4) 09:32:31 <06m​umra> Regarding the last point which was the language. I struggled a bit here as it's really hard to communicate it in a way that isn't ambiguous. To me it possibly sounds like it's saying the monster is already blind, not that it will blind on hit (and in the case of atropa darts you'll get a (X% chance to blind on hit) in addition afterwards, so it's clear then. Maybe it should be "while you are blind" to be clear. Or maybe (as discussed 09:32:31 above) I should give a normal % as well as the blind % so the player can actually understand how much they're being affected. 09:38:17 <06m​umra> Another thought is that maybe we should use colours in these texts to indicate which parts are good or bad (for you). The text will also be followed by some other things that affect the %, like (while incapacitated), which apply to the monster rather than player.' 09:42:20 Dynojp (L12 TrFi) ASSERT(in_bounds(source)) in 'beam.cc' at line 729 failed. (source = (79,45)) (Lair:2) 11:27:03 <04d​racoomega> Yeah, I realize that the numbers are a result of just how to-hit vs. EV works. I charted a bunch of this when I was planning out those semi-recent adjustments to constriction and repel missiles. But knowing why the numbers are the way they are doesn't make them any better - especially for an effect that is transient and turns off and on. I think it's more important that the player can get a reasonable intuitive sense of how they're 11:27:03 affected quickly here than with some effect that is just active the whole game. As Monkooky says, monster EV doesn't really increase overall as the game goes on (while player accuracy does) and any effect that is planned to be used at multiple stages of the game should understand this. It's maybe worth looking at it in reverse: what exactly would we want the numbers to look like? (At different stages of the game, and against different types of EV). 11:27:04 And then work backwards from there to find a formula. I agree. I mean, I think Crawl math will probably force this to be a little imperfect regardless, but "The end results of the math feel grockable" is more important than the math itself being simple, I think. The idea of it being an additional % chance to fail before to-hit vs. EV is rolled does feel like it has high potential to be good, to me. It's easy to describe and does sort of naturally 11:27:04 scale with both place in the game and what you're character is doing. I do see your argument that water fumble chance ought to be folded in if that is. Not quite sure what I think about that at present. I wonder if I'm biased by water fumble being a 'simple' enough modifier that I can just passively apply it myself (but blindness's range effect is not quite that way) 11:40:44 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.32-a0-1119-gc2fb2e3241: Tweak some spellbooks 10(52 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c2fb2e3241e3 11:42:03 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Once more, a need to make Summon Lava Fish.... 11:42:48 <06p​leasingfungus> yum. spicy 11:42:56 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Or an entire new school so the Mortar can be three schools.) 11:42:58 <04d​racoomega> It's fine, Hellfire Mortar can be Fire/Earth/[Forgecraft] eventually 😛 11:43:20 <06p​leasingfungus> does that mean the Book of Burglary will finally get its companion tome 11:43:27 <06p​leasingfungus> the Folio of Forgery 11:44:38 <02M​onkooky> I'm still not sold on the impetus behind forgecraft 11:46:24 <02M​onkooky> it feels like it'd be Summoning 2, or Summoning 2 but with bells on 11:46:29 <06p​leasingfungus> monkooky, that’s valid. and, if i may be so bold - you are valid 11:46:52 <06p​leasingfungus> but also i literally do want summoning 2. i love summoning 11:47:29 <04d​racoomega> I mean, it very specifically should feel as distinct from summoning as, say, earth is from fire. A bunch of related tools and a number of distinct tools, and importantly 'different sets of tools' that create distinct play experiences and choices between those too 11:47:49 <06p​leasingfungus> earth / fire / cj are my touchpoints here yeah 11:48:03 <04d​racoomega> (Plus I feel Forgecraft also gets some other utility that summoning doesn't directly. In a similar way that Necro is an 'ally school' but also a 'utility school' of a particular sort) 11:48:09 <06p​leasingfungus> re existing similar/overlapping schools that still play well 11:48:34 <06p​leasingfungus> are we locked in to forgecraft or still considering artifice 11:48:50 <06p​leasingfungus> i want to be a master of artifice. a prince of deception 11:50:26 <04d​racoomega> We're not locked into it, certainly, though I guess I personally prefer it. But it's not like I feel forgecraft is a slam-dunk, either. I dunno, I just feel like 'artifice' is going to sound more like an item manipulation thing? Maybe it's entirely personaly subjective that forgecraft does not? 11:50:30 <06p​leasingfungus> (q) isn’t it a bit premature for bikeshedding? (a) never 11:50:42 <04d​racoomega> Yes, I keep using the word since it's 'the best I have' 😛 11:50:51 <04d​racoomega> And the starting bg can be a Forgewright or something 😛 11:50:52 <06p​leasingfungus> forgecraft sounds super physical and item manipulative, to me 11:50:59 <04d​racoomega> It's possible it's just me, yes 11:51:02 <06p​leasingfungus> like i am a smith 11:51:03 <04d​racoomega> I am absolutely not married to it 11:51:06 <06p​leasingfungus> i am at a forge 11:51:14 <06p​leasingfungus> wow, scandalous 11:51:27 <04d​racoomega> (I'd totally have been advocating for Shaping or something if Shapeshifting was not a thing, but it is) 11:51:33 <06p​leasingfungus> mm 11:52:44 <06p​leasingfungus> well, i’ll think about it 11:52:49 <06p​leasingfungus> keeping it on the backburner 11:52:51 <06p​leasingfungus> as it were 11:53:12 <06p​leasingfungus> very happy you’re taking up my pitch here, regardless of names 🙂 11:54:30 <04d​racoomega> I woke up with a few solid thoughts for the level 1/2 forgecraft spells that should feel clearly different than summoning while still being pretty straightforward (and some silly ideas to try out for replacing summoner start book top-end). And between that and ideas for mid-level alchemy summons that started this train of thought for me in the first place, I'm actually like... fairly enthusiastic to keep working in that direction. 11:54:48 <04d​racoomega> As ambitious as it may be 11:56:59 <06p​leasingfungus> i'm all for it 11:57:16 <06p​leasingfungus> it's certainly not a Necessary project, but if we only did what was Necessary, crawl wouldn't exist 😛 11:57:24 <06p​leasingfungus> game dev should be fun! 12:05:44 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (It helps that 1: spells like the current cannons can still help the other elemental schools for now, and 2: this is another chance to revise some remaining jank, like Slow's uselessness or Dazzling Flash's strange continued use of Conjurations.) 12:10:40 <06p​leasingfungus> is slow useless? 12:16:24 <09g​ammafunk> (I honestly thought we removed Slow as a player spell) 12:16:27 <04d​racoomega> 'Useless' might be a bit strong, but I think that characters who would use it aren't likely to have access to it at a time they'd care to use it. Hexslinger lost it because the opportunity cost compared to shooting stuff was pretty bad. Hedge Wizard I think rarely bothers to use it (magic dart is a better use of mp to start with and then there's call imp). 12:16:33 <09g​ammafunk> It's not useless but it's not the most fun to use 12:16:51 <09g​ammafunk> right, hedge wizard 12:17:31 <04d​racoomega> At one point, I had thought of remaking it into a slightly higher necro spell that moved the slow onto another nearby unit when the unit that was slowed died. But we were talking last night about instead doing that sort of idea as forgecraft by making into like... a pair of overeager spirit manacles ^^; 12:18:22 <09g​ammafunk> slow is potentially a fun effect because hasting self is a fun effect given how strong it is, but applying it to a single monster is both a lot weaker (except for 1v1) and probably feels more annoying mostly due to having to pass a will check 12:18:25 <04d​racoomega> (Specific interactions with Will not yet fleshed out, but the visual concept amuses me) 12:19:05 <09g​ammafunk> ??slow reasons 12:19:05 <04C​erebot> I don't have a page labeled slow_reasons in my learndb. 12:19:11 <09g​ammafunk> fr 12:57:57 <06m​umra> I still like the idea of theming it heavily around magical glyphs + crafting (Scribecraft?) 13:07:34 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> While writing elements are easy themes to work with in their own right, the game with three versions of runes and a sigil not interacting with such makes it rather unenticing to work with, and a bunch of the school's current planned transfers have a clear mechanical theme to them already (Lightning Spire, Blazeheart, Hoarfrost Cannonade, Hellfire Mortar, Spellforged Servitor). 13:08:56 <04d​racoomega> I have, once again, been pouring over thesaursus and related words lists >.> 13:09:25 <04d​racoomega> (Without a lot of success) 13:22:35 <02M​onkooky> edifice 13:23:56 <04d​racoomega> That was on the list of 'maybe there is something to any of these', actually ^^; 13:24:18 <04d​racoomega> (Some of them are definitely not good at all, but like 'maybe could become good somehow', maybe??) 13:25:50 <04d​racoomega> A bunch of decent words or word roots are effectively off-limits because of other Crawl things. Earth already has metal, 'casting' from the perspective of 'a way you make things' obviously just sounds like spellcasting. I've already mentioned the shaping/shapeshifting thing (and part of the reason I'm a bit wary on 'artifice' - even if that's still better than the majority of things I've dug up - is because the spell school really 13:25:51 has nothing to do with artifacts, which are already a well-established thing in the game) 13:30:06 <06d​olorous_84348> Odd thought: since Earth already has metal, if we ever wanted to pull a bit from the Chinese elements and have wood and metal as (rare) elements, Earth would have to be reworked anyway. 13:30:29 <06d​olorous_84348> Back on topic, edifice sounds good to me. 13:32:03 <02M​onkooky> manaworking, spellforging, craftwork 13:33:09 <06d​olorous_84348> (Also, with regard to recent spells, now having cannons shaped out of elements other than earth seems better to me. Don't get me wrong, earth cannons are cool, but they also made my brain go to "We spent how much sending you to Alchemy School, and you used it to... shape dirt into big guns?" for some reason.) 13:34:15 <06d​olorous_84348> My brain does not want to stay on topic for long today. 13:35:52 <06d​olorous_84348> Out of those three, manaworking and spellforging sound better to me, especially the latter because of Spellforged Servitor. 13:42:20 It's great to see some of my PRs get merged :) Fwiw I also originally put the throwing line last in x-v. I moved it to first for reasons to do with the has_any_flavour and flavour_after_dam variables which I now realise were non-reasons... 13:45:43 The result is for throwing nets/darts those variables are set twice... oops 13:55:23 <04d​racoomega> I'm sorry it's taken so long to really take a look at them. They're very helpful! I do plan to get to some more of them in the near future also. 13:57:25 <04d​racoomega> Spellforging does have a nice ring to it, but I guess I continue to worry about any possible ambiguity for new players with 'doing things with spells in general' in the way that Spellcasting works. 14:03:58 <04d​racoomega> I wonder if Fabrication sounds reasonably in line with Conjurations or if it sounds too modern? Construction?? Forgemancy??? T.T 14:05:57 <06d​olorous_84348> Fabrication sounds good to me, especially since there are a few more modern-sounding things in the game thanks to coglins. I thought of "Magiconstruction", but it's a bit long and something about the phrasing seems off. 14:06:16 <06d​olorous_84348> "Magifabrication" is also long, but the phrasing seems less off to me. 14:09:42 <06d​olorous_84348> Although what would we call practitioners of... I'll go with Fabrication? There's "fabber," but the term is from what the Schlock Mercenary universe calls fabrication devices, and that seems off in this setting; "magifabber" seems a bit less off to me, but not by much. 14:10:29 <06d​olorous_84348> At least "forgemancer" seems fitting. 14:11:26 <06d​olorous_84348> "Magiconstructor" is a mouthful, and "magicon" for short seems too cutesy and sounds like a new type of Transformer to me. 14:19:17 Forgecraft and forgemancy seem cleanest to me 14:19:24 (of the suggestions so far) 14:34:48 <06m​umra> Magineering ? 14:36:44 <06m​umra> I tried a different formula, moving it to pre_roll and having it approach the target's EV rather than scaling to zero; it does seem to produce more the desired effect (and I think, in the end, it is rather similar to just having an additional roll, just on a slightly different curve). I'll push it after some cleanup (along with those other changes) and see what we think. 14:41:30 <06m​umra> (Technomancy? 😂 ) 14:50:43 <09h​ellmonk> Fortnitemancy 14:56:37 <06d​olorous_84348> If I had to choose between magineering and technomancy, I'd choose magineering. 14:57:32 <06d​olorous_84348> Technomancy sounds a bit too modern to me. 15:11:12 <06m​umra> Yeah sorry was not a real suggestion 15:12:00 <06d​olorous_84348> Okay, wasn't certain. Magineering is interesting, though. 15:15:06 <06p​leasingfungus> it would be very funny to try to split earth and metal into separate elements 15:16:36 <06p​leasingfungus> iron shot/bombard, anime armour, maybe magnavolt, and a few monster spells (sheza's dance, resonance strike) would need to be rethemed or reschooled 15:17:03 <06p​leasingfungus> magnavolt is the only one of those that sounds particularly problematic tbh 15:17:33 <06p​leasingfungus> there's something very elegant about just having Metal as a school. It's a bit close to rift wizard, but eh, they'll live. 😛 15:17:49 <04d​racoomega> They took lightning spire from us first 😛 15:18:22 <06d​olorous_84348> For the record, I've heard of Rift Wizard, but never played it. 15:19:38 <04d​racoomega> The thing is, I'm not sure 'metal' entirely works for this forgemancy-or-whatever school either, since some of these objects one is making are not very metal (ie: battlesphere) 15:20:45 <04d​racoomega> (Though on the magnavolt front, when I moved seismic cannonade out of alchemy, I did actually consider making magnavolt into air/alchemy and theming it as temporarily transmuting a part of the outer skin/shell of the targets to be highly electrically attractive somehow) 15:22:54 <02s​entei> Maybe automagic / automated magic would work 15:25:21 <06p​leasingfungus> it seems like battlesphere could become metal, right? 15:25:27 <06p​leasingfungus> also, wildly pedantic: do you mean ie or eg 15:25:40 <04d​racoomega> eg, sorry 😛 15:26:25 <04d​racoomega> (There's also hoarfrost cannonade, which is currently made of ice - I guess it could be ice/metal, but it does feel like picking a specific substance rather than an 'approach' is more limiting as a grouping) 15:26:42 <04d​racoomega> Even if naming is a lot easier >.> 15:27:03 <04d​racoomega> Hellfire Mortar isn't metal either 15:28:24 <04d​racoomega> Like, I'm imagining if Necromancy was 'Bone Magic' instead, for instance >.> 15:28:38 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Is Mercury a metal?) 15:28:43 <04d​racoomega> Yes 15:30:43 <06p​leasingfungus> mm 15:37:06 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-1119-gc2fb2e3241 (34) 15:37:26 <06p​leasingfungus> i guess i consider the elements to be reasonably successful as a school structure 15:37:30 <06p​leasingfungus> much moreso than eg conjuration 15:37:57 <06p​leasingfungus> so it's not obvious to me that a new element would be bad. but i agree there are challenges 15:38:50 <06p​leasingfungus> here's a spicy option which is probably contradicted by secret dracoomega plans: name the new school Summoning and rename legacy summ to Life 15:38:56 <06p​leasingfungus> i'm gonna cast life magic and summon a big dog 15:39:03 <06p​leasingfungus> or a spooky tentacle from space (it's aliiiive!) 15:39:35 <06p​leasingfungus> life is obviously the opposite of necromancy 15:39:40 <06p​leasingfungus> and we'll bring back antitraining for it [well, no] 15:39:53 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> What school is Martyr's Knell? 15:40:11 <06p​leasingfungus> that's a question for the devs. i'm retired and don't have to answer inconvenient questions 15:40:13 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Or, more pressingly, Haunt) 15:41:41 <06d​olorous_84348> Mentioning summoning big dogs reminded me of one thing: if we're looking for new holy monsters at some point, what about a holy felid? (Shamelessly swiped from the expression "holy cats.") 15:42:02 <06p​leasingfungus> is that an expression? 15:42:19 <06p​leasingfungus> google says yes, but i've never heard anyone use it 15:42:54 <06d​olorous_84348> I've heard one person use it. 15:43:22 <06d​olorous_84348> Maybe it's a regional thing. 15:43:24 <04d​racoomega> I've not heard of it eithe 15:45:21 <04d​racoomega> Also, while I don't know that 'life' is contradicted by any specific nebulous plans I had for forgemancy, as I was specifically staying away from absolutely anything that might come across as 'alive', I did plan for it to be a more 'mixed' school in a way that necomancy is. It has lots of spells about making allies in various ways, but also has direct utility/support stuff in a way that summonings currently does not 15:46:28 <04d​racoomega> (But yes, Marty's Knell and Haunt, at the very least, seem troubled with something like that. And one nice thing about this school change is that pretty much all the higher-tier Summonings don't even need to be touched) 15:57:30 <06d​olorous_84348> ""Life" only applies to those not in the afterlife? Have you been listening to the so-called good gods' propaganda again?" 15:57:55 <06d​olorous_84348> But seriously, it does sound like an issue. 17:08:55 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-1118-g4d67e646a5: Make "to-hit" display more accurate and consistent 10(3 days ago, 11 files, 125+ 45-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4d67e646a50a 17:08:55 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-1119-g6baae7762c: Blindness: player accuracy debuff 10(2 days ago, 15 files, 117+ 28-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6baae7762c79 17:08:55 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-1120-gb11fd08696: Make flashes consistent in webtiles 10(3 weeks ago, 5 files, 19+ 56-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b11fd08696e2 17:08:55 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-1121-g8f1444aeb6: Add an alpha channel to screen flashes 10(3 weeks ago, 6 files, 23+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8f1444aeb621 17:08:55 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-1122-g1d9dd8b41c: Add visual effect for blindness 10(3 weeks ago, 1 file, 17+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1d9dd8b41c68 17:08:55 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-1123-gb1c8f8b4e9: Add blinding to possible chaos effects 10(3 weeks ago, 2 files, 14+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b1c8f8b4e968 17:08:55 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-1124-g2800a5b75e: Add blinding to klown pie effects 10(3 weeks ago, 4 files, 26+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2800a5b75e9c 17:08:55 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-1125-g7f002376d8: Use blindness for Zin wrath 10(3 weeks ago, 2 files, 7+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7f002376d8eb 17:08:55 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-1126-g826f03db9b: Gozag wrath can distract players 10(3 weeks ago, 2 files, 13+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/826f03db9b94 17:08:55 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-1127-g75cc4037a3: Monster version of Dazzling Flash 10(8 days ago, 12 files, 111+ 46-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/75cc4037a324 17:08:55 ... and 2 more commits 17:09:52 <06m​umra> Rebased again ... only the final commit is new and applies the new formula 17:11:28 <06m​umra> Also a nice discovery that beams of course work completely differently than regular combat in how they apply ev on the to-hit (ev is also randomised, so beams are rather more likely generally to hit than other attacks given otherwise the same base to-hit) 17:12:47 <06m​umra> A question: should the accuracy penalty also apply to wands? 17:17:07 <06m​umra> There is slightly a problem that beams are always applying the penalty, regardless of where the beam originally came from, so at the moment it'll be applying to wands as well as any god abilities that use a beam. The latter should definitely change I feel, but it's a bit hard to know how the spell was actuall cast at the time of malus being applied. 17:20:56 <04d​racoomega> I assumed the accuracy penalty did apply to wands, honestly. (I'm not sure that god abilities that shoot basic spell-style beams should be excluded, either. I mean, the player is still the one aiming them) 17:22:03 <04d​racoomega> Like, if these are things that already have a miss chance based on the player's abilities 18:16:03 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1120-gdfafe4981a: Fix missing break statements in spell usability logic (RelicWraith) 10(54 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/dfafe4981ac2 18:42:40 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1121-g58216f8073: Fix Hellfire Mortar incorrectly saying no targets were in range (Tavran) 10(73 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/58216f8073df 19:19:46 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3646 Joke vetting time: is it too silly if I make this vault submission work with the return of Wiglaf by making it refer to his grandmother, as his dialogue now implies? 19:21:11 <04d​racoomega> Granny Wiglaf 20:34:41 <06p​leasingfungus> i have no objection 20:52:07 <06d​olorous_84348> Sounds good to me. 22:17:02 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1122-ga9bbc2f417: Make hell knights properly worship Makhleb. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a9bbc2f41714 22:35:27 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1122-ga9bbc2f417 (34) 22:58:44 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1122-ga9bbc2f417 23:14:25 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1122-ga9bbc2f417 (34) 23:28:25 03regret-index02 07* 0.32-a0-1123-gc2f12fc6cd: Make the orc priest apostles a little more fancy (#3628) 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c2f12fc6cda4 23:28:25 03mainiacjoe02 {regret-index} 07* 0.32-a0-1124-gc27ebab66b: Add a hat* shop (#3646) 10(9 weeks ago, 1 file, 61+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c27ebab66b3f 23:28:25 03regret-index02 07* 0.32-a0-1125-g1dda8f8d83: Mildly bump up obsidian bat difficulty 10(7 minutes ago, 2 files, 7+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1dda8f8d836e 23:31:20 <06m​umra> Good, well yes it was applying to them already via the beam code, but it wasn't clear this was the case because beams were still using slightly different describe logic, AND the actual penalty ended up being much more gentle because of how differently beams treat EV. So that last revision brings beams fully in line so yes, god abilities and wands will be affected as long as they're going through your_spells and the standard beam paths. 23:32:50 <06m​umra> After all those hat-related commits, I read this one as "obsidian hat" 23:55:24 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1125-g1dda8f8d83