00:05:38 03Monkooky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3775 * 0.32-a0-1081-g929049f215: remove 'no targets' warning for gastronomic expanse 10(16 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/929049f215cd 03:31:57 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5199-gb287095a7e 06:05:58 <06mumra> Trying to work out if there's a way to combine the two different types of blinding resistance. "mons_can_be_dazzled" is currently checked only for dazzling flash and wand of light. it checks for the unblindable flag and then undead/nonliving/plant in addition. other forms of blindness (e.g. poison or god abilities) use "mons_can_be_blinded" which only check the unblindable flag. the logic just seems a little arbitrary, other than 06:05:58 obviously just trying to restrict the usefulness of the spell and wand. i can understand "plants don't have eyes so they're using other senses". but what sense are undead using and then why can poison blind them but not light? nonliving similarly: looking through what nonliving means, i would assume most of these are unblindable altogether except a few edge cases. so maybe nonliving should always be unblindable, plants (for how many of them there are 06:05:59 that are actually relevant) should just get the "unblindable" flag rather than the holiness being special cased, and undead should be allowed to be dazzled after all? (this affects the player blindness stuff too, as it seems reasonable to make the player checks mirror the monster dazzle checks at the point where /light can affect player: therefore undead or death form players would be immune to blinding too, but i don't really see why they should be 06:05:59 ...) 06:37:00 <12ge0ff> ^-- sounds reasonable 08:25:38 Rudyous (L27 DsCj) ERROR in 'mon-cast.cc' at line 1819: Unknown monster spell 'Gell's Gravitas' cast by Canwutygu's ghost (Zig:20) 08:28:02 <07zureal> cbr2 gets all the crashes 16:00:14 <09gammafunk> qw crash: https://crawl.dcss.io/crawl/morgue/qw/crash-qw-20240506-225853.txt 16:39:43 <06mumra> Ahh, another oddity. There is the "floundering" property of both players and monsters. It makes monsters fumble their attacks 1/4 of the time, or the player 3/8 of the time. This chance is described as "occasionally" in the water description, I would think nearly 50% is hardly occasionally? This % isn't displayed anywhere, nor is the "floundering" status, and it's not accounted for in to-hit percents. Additionally there's a movement 16:39:44 penalty, it will be reflected in monster speeds, but still no indication why ... You just have to know which monsters are amphibious or not. 17:07:41 <04dracoomega> I mean, xv says which monsters are amphibious 17:08:26 <04dracoomega> (I'm not really sure "Chance you will completely fumble the attack due to water" should be folded into a general shown to-hit) 17:08:43 <04dracoomega> I'm relatively sure I wouldn't actually expect it to account for this 17:40:32 <06mumra> If it wasn't also taking shield blocks into account i'd totally agree ... but otherwise the % is actual chance that you'll hit the monster. Unless you're in water, in which case there's an extra 37.5% chance you'll miss anyway, which isn't indicated to the player in any way 17:48:35 <06mumra> (Amphibiousness is also only indicated on xv by "It can travel through water" which is also maybe not a super clear indication that the monster is immune to these penalties) 18:05:23 <04dracoomega> "It can move freely through water"? 18:06:40 <04dracoomega> I'm wondering if there are other 'effectively penalties to being able to hit something' beyond this. I feel like there must be, but not immediately coming to mind. 18:06:50 <06mumra> Hmm .. fear gives another 1/3 chance for the player to miss 🙂 yeah this is not easy without just showing a complete breakdown of all the different factors 18:10:29 <06mumra> (This came up as I'm working on wall monsters, and I felt like rockfish should be swimming when they're in walls and floundering on land, giving more reason to fight them in open space. But just trying to verify if it's working correctly I realised there was no obvious indication it's working correctly) 18:10:33 <06dolorous_84348> If nonliving players are immune to blinding, that means gargoyles, djinni, and at least storm form as well. 18:13:04 <06mumra> I mean this sounds realistic for storm form certainly, and djinni for that matter (it's already true for monster djinni and gargoyles) 18:13:35 <06dolorous_84348> Agreed. 18:13:43 <06mumra> How do gargoyles see anyway? 18:14:19 <06dolorous_84348> The magic that animates them lets them sense things in a way akin to vision, or something like that? 18:14:41 <06dolorous_84348> Same for statue form, which is also nonliving. 18:15:30 <04dracoomega> Implementation aside, I don't think they should be actively weaker on land, and certainly not to that degree - theme or no. 18:17:06 <06mumra> The exception that makes sense is that gods can even blind things that see in non-visual ways, they can just block whatever senses they like - in which case i'd relax the holy blinding abilities to just be able to blind anything, and only mundane blinding methods follow the checks 18:20:25 <04dracoomega> why can poison blind them but not light By this, I assume you mean the darts? (Frankly, darts have always been weird in that sort of a way, even if that's not a great answer. Most of the throwing skill status darts are so niche that not many people ever use them and I haven't used them a lot myself either, so not sure what makes most mechanical sense) I'm a touch wary of making a whole bunch of player species immune to being 18:20:25 blinded, though. Although maybe it's fine? But it wouldn't be the first time the player was less immune to various things than their monster equivalents. 18:22:43 <04dracoomega> (I mean, the blind immune flag at the moment is fairly arbitrary anyway. Like, I sort of 'get' the logic of making it so dogs can't be blinded (ie: sense of smell/hearing are good), but like... dogs are still plenty blindable, intuitively, and it would still actually make them worse at doing anything.) 18:23:19 <06mumra> Yeah I hadn't quite appreciated how many nonliving forms this meant (I was specifically thinking undead should be susceptible so that the player would be more affected) 18:23:51 <04dracoomega> The issue there is that dazzling flash not working on undead is a very, very tangible limitation of the spell 18:24:09 <04dracoomega> (And I frankly think the gameplay is more interesting as-is) 18:24:20 <06mumra> Yeah I agree ... being able to sense where things are doesn't mean that you're not still affected by loss by vision 18:25:01 <06dolorous_84348> Unless you're a species what never had eyes/vision in the first place, but that's outside the box. 18:25:10 <04dracoomega> That's sort of the thing here. There are all sorts of different mechanism to be 'blinded' by, if one wants to be fiddly with flavor details, and it's easy to argue back and forth that method A should work on monster X, but not monster Y, but method B should work on monster X. But I personally think the flavor/mechanics intersection will always be a bit fuzzy/arbitrary here, so what is a combination of 'player can actually remember 18:25:11 how it works' and 'plays well' 18:25:17 <06mumra> But player/monster blindness is going to very different still either way so it's not like they have to apply the same limitations 18:25:36 <06pleasingfungus> that seems quite hard for players to track 18:25:42 <04dracoomega> And then worry about whether or not it matches physical expectations can come as a secondary thing 18:27:25 <04dracoomega> To be clear, I don't think I have a problem with, say, Zin being able to blind whatever they want with Recite, even if other methods don't work. Less enthused on differentiating between light and ink and other such things. (As said earlier, I have no idea what I think of atropa. Does anyone even use that, really? >.>) 18:28:04 <06pleasingfungus> i feel like a few people do 18:28:08 <06pleasingfungus> not many 18:28:19 <06pleasingfungus> it’s cool conceptually. be the stabber 18:28:27 <04dracoomega> (If anything, that working on undead makes a lot less sense than light. But I really have no idea what to think of the rarer darts) 18:29:02 <06pleasingfungus> i wish they didn’t scale on stealth 18:29:38 <04dracoomega> I went a long time forgetting that was a thing 18:29:43 <06pleasingfungus> it’s surprising to players and makes them much narrower 18:29:54 <06pleasingfungus> blind is already more useful for stabbers than other characters 18:30:06 <04dracoomega> (In the context of this conversation, I wonder if it would be less weird if we didn't try to make them be a poison-flavored thing) 18:30:19 <06pleasingfungus> ooh, magic darts… 18:30:20 <04dracoomega> Since in practice they don't work anything like poison 18:30:33 <04dracoomega> (And they're niche enough to use that I'm not suggesting they should be narrower) 18:30:57 <06mumra> Definitely wasn't contemplating different mechanics for light vs ink 🙂 18:31:44 <04dracoomega> I mean, not everything I said here was directed at a specific remark ^^; 18:32:20 <04dracoomega> I've certainly chatted back and forth with index at various points about how silly it is that you can't blind a dog or whatever. 18:33:24 <04dracoomega> I think basically everything living (or nearly everything) that has blindness immunity had sense invis (back when that was a thing) without being upgraded to see invis proper. Maybe I'm wrong, but there's some parallels certainly 18:38:20 <06pleasingfungus> i believe that's about right 18:39:47 <04dracoomega> (I'm not sure there'd be much mechanical consequence to dogs losing it. Jellies having it feels intuitive to me at least. And deep trolls can be weird eyeless depthizens ^^; ) 18:39:49 <06mumra> I think there's two different kinds: monsters that have some additional sense and therefore can see invis, but probably SHOULD be affected by blinding to some degree because they still have eyes that they clearly need to use for a lot of things -- and then monsters that literally don't have eyes and "see" in some completely magical way (e.g. dancing weapons, living spells, slime creatures) 18:40:25 <06mumra> (slime creatures are unblindable but DON'T have see invis however so nothing is consistent of course...) 18:42:08 <04dracoomega> I mean, I think it's probably fairly widely intuitive that things that don't even have differentiable organs maybe don't see in the usual way 18:42:15 <04dracoomega> For whatever that's worth 18:44:33 <06pleasingfungus> consistency is for nerds 18:44:40 <06mumra> Exactly so it seems like they should be able to see invis, since they're not relying on light 18:45:05 <06mumra> They're feeling vibrations or whatever ("can't see you if you're flying") 18:46:37 <06mumra> Maybe if there's a simplification it'd be to remove the unblindable flag, and let anything that has see_invis not be affected by dazzle/light (along with nonliving and undead which between all of those covers most of the unblindable flag anyway). 18:47:45 <04dracoomega> That's a huge change in what is affected (and frankly, makes the list a lot larger). I think it's actually interesting and relevant that things that are affected by dazzling flash and !invis are not the same, as differentiation of the two important stabbing tools 18:51:25 <06mumra> Most things with see_invis are also unblindable already 18:52:04 <04dracoomega> I... don't think that's true at all? 18:52:37 <04dracoomega> There's a whole lot of spellcasters (most of the high level deep elves) and vault crew that have see invis and are not 18:52:39 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Honestly, "deep trolls", "canines", "jellies", and three seperate holinesses are still more parseable categories than see invisible's sprawling space of "spellcasters that are supposed to be the strongest for their branch, but not otherwise".) 18:53:22 <06mumra> Sorry my bad 18:53:35 <06regret-⸸nde※> Orc sorcerers, Merfolk Aquamancers but not Merfolk Avatars... 18:53:49 <06mumra> It's the other way, most unblindable things are also see_invis 18:53:51 <06regret-⸸nde※> (...whatever an entrophy weaver is...) 18:53:54 <04dracoomega> Oh, right, all naga, too 18:54:00 <04dracoomega> Yes, that may be true 18:55:13 <04dracoomega> What this means in practice is that while invisibility is the strongest stabbing tool against things it works on, there's a relatively large swath of things that it doesn't work on. Blind does work on them still, but is much harder to apply en mass. (The things that invis works on but not blind are mostly undead, but there's lots of those) 18:56:44 <06mumra> You have to get close to use dazzling flash as well (at which point it's maybe better to just go for the stab in many cases?) 19:17:10 <06mumra> So really: perhaps the dart should just use the same checks as dazzling, and gods should be allowed to blind anything they want to 19:24:22 <04dracoomega> Problem is that, mechanically, the darts are already niche and that niche is mostly 'working on things that normal methods of applying the debuff don't'. I do think the poison flavor on them is awkward and maybe could bear changing. Description could be more explicit with it working on things that it normally would not. It might be nice if there was something other than blindness they could do as a stab-enabler here to avoid these 19:24:22 questions entirely. Funny, I assumed that paralysis darts were removed because they were considered too strong by someone (even if in practice, they were rare enough and the skill investment significant enough that I don't think that was the case), but looking at the commit that removed them, none of that is even mentioned. Just 'too many debuff needle types'. 19:31:14 <04dracoomega> Y'know, I am suddenly wondering if those things should even be darts at all. Like, it's weird in some ways (and I assume especially for newcomers) how they scale entirely different than poison and curare darts and mostly work different in every way. They check different resists, need a bunch of skill investment to have a chance to work, aren't useful for characters not doing that (unlike early poison darts and curare for quite a 19:31:14 while). With blowguns long gone, there's mostly nothing they have in common beyond 'status effect throwable', is there? 19:31:22 <04dracoomega> And I wonder if this would be clearer if they were just something else 19:32:31 <04dracoomega> (Not immediately clear to me what that should be, mind you) 19:33:36 <06mumra> Interesting 19:34:55 <06mumra> Yeah the blinding dart is "atropa", in real life this causes light sensitivity so you'd expect it to have all the same mechanical implications as dazzling 19:36:02 <06mumra> There are not many other options for what they could be 19:36:02 <06mumra> If you want to keep the throwing skill relevant then "magic rocks" 19:36:44 <06mumra> Or other things that can be thrown like dust/sand 19:39:13 <06mumra> You can't really go misc evokable if it's meant to be "alternative way of applying the debuff" since /light is already an evocations source of stabbing 19:39:13 <06mumra> Or are you thinking a whole different item type? 19:40:17 <04dracoomega> I wasn't talking a mechanical change here. Just 'flavor the thing you're throwing as something else' - whatever that might be 19:43:13 <04dracoomega> (My brain keeps going to 'ofuda' and then dialing it back and being like "Is there any less anime equivalent to that?" since we surely can't say 'talisman' these days :P) 19:45:46 <06mumra> i'm wanting to say "rocks with sigils inscribed on them" and i'm back at runes again aren't i 😂 19:48:16 <04dracoomega> Like, it's easy to think of various throwing weapons to attach this effect to, but many of them are things you'd expect to do damage 19:51:40 <02Monkooky> pocket sand 20:13:54 <06pleasingfungus> oh, when you said they maybe shouldn’t be poison, i assumed they wouldn’t be darts either 20:14:02 <06pleasingfungus> that is, it seemed to follow naturally 20:14:11 <06pleasingfungus> some kind of magical debilitating throwable 20:17:20 <06pleasingfungus> throwing ofuda any distance seems hard 20:18:35 <06pleasingfungus> re player intuition :p 20:19:04 <04dracoomega> I am curious what sway other media would have on player perception in that space, but it wasn't a serious suggestion for Crawl itself, no 20:19:07 <06pleasingfungus> i’m picturing breakable throwing flasks full of sparkly stuff 20:19:25 <06pleasingfungus> finally… the throwable potions that players crave 20:20:04 <06pleasingfungus> not sure what you’d call em. maybe flasks. maybe tinctures 20:21:10 <04dracoomega> I didn't think these darts always mulched, though 20:21:55 <04dracoomega> Wiki claims ~16.6% chance to mulch per throw 20:23:20 <04dracoomega> (You could spawn a lot more at a time, but that does also mean you get a lot more you can throw in a row if you miss/fail, without needing to pick them up again) 20:23:27 <06pleasingfungus> that seems fine 20:24:17 <06pleasingfungus> can also make em only mulch on hit, and only multiply spawns by 4x or something 20:24:21 <06pleasingfungus> instead of 6x 20:24:28 <04dracoomega> Perhaps, yeah 20:25:17 <04dracoomega> (I am currently working on Wiglaf's triumphant return, and trying to figure out the acceptable degree of impenetrable scots) 20:25:27 <04dracoomega> Or, frankly, how to write even an acceptable degree of it 20:25:55 <06pleasingfungus> lol 20:26:06 <06pleasingfungus> but what will he do now that his hat was stolen 20:26:20 <04dracoomega> Well, that's the whole thing! He alternates with Joseph 😛 20:26:43 <04dracoomega> (I mean, that's not the whole thing. That's just a joke. But it's part of the thing) 20:27:25 <04dracoomega> That joke had been tossed around for a while without a good mechanical hook of what he actually does, but now I'm giving him hellfire morter ^^; 20:27:37 <04dracoomega> Which feels adequately dwarvish also 20:27:46 <04dracoomega> Wiglaf came back with a very, very large gun 20:27:47 <06pleasingfungus> spicy… 20:28:01 <06pleasingfungus> poor kobold bombardiers getting overshadowed already 20:29:04 <04dracoomega> Looking over his old dialogue to see what may be worth keeping. It lays on the eye dialect thicker than I remember. 20:29:48 <04dracoomega> (I am electing to take out the lines about being a drunkard or vaguely racist, at the very least) 20:30:15 <06pleasingfungus> smh 20:30:26 <06pleasingfungus> where will we be without vague racism 20:30:30 <04dracoomega> Haha 20:30:44 <04dracoomega> But honestly, the biggest problem is feeling like I can be consistent about the accent ^^; 20:31:02 <06pleasingfungus> consistency is the hobgoblin of tiny devs 20:31:07 <04dracoomega> Hahaha 20:31:11 <06pleasingfungus> look at whatever rupert is doing 20:31:22 <06pleasingfungus> if you can live ‘up’ to that, you’re fine 20:32:28 <06dolorous_84348> Just imagine a hobgoblin unique named Consistency, and complaining about it (not at the same level as Donald, of course, but at least a bit). 20:44:26 * GenTooMan listens to Consistency complaining about use of literals instead of defined constants as the "worst" form of 'magic' coding. 20:50:22 that thought reminds me of the Q3 commands in the server code so easy to mess up just a few "acidental" changes and suddenly "getstatus" becomes "guesstatus" :D 23:00:48 <02Monkooky> big fan of this gathering up thrown darts is a pain in the ass 23:20:17 <04dracoomega> I mean, the entire point of suggesting the niche status effect ones be something other than darts presumes that poison/curare darts remain as they are 23:45:45 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1074-g4fd57f6e19 23:49:07 <06mumra> the thought i had while i was going to sleep was "marbles" - little glass balls that can have pure magic bound inside them or liquids/gasses as required for whatever theme (and the tiles can be nice and distinct with different swirling colours inside them) 23:50:09 <06mumra> and they're nice and small and throwable but require skill to throw accurately. and it makes sense to always mulch on hit 23:52:35 <06mumra> and without being too close to potions to have to explain why you can throw one but not the other 23:52:38 <06mumra> (the other option might be to call them glyphs and they're like little carved stone tablets, and close enough to ofuda while selling the fact they can be thrown) 23:54:09 <06mumra> ... then it also occurred to me that nets are another form of throwing item that gives a debuff and also aids stabbing