03:32:09 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5199-gb287095a7e 03:37:36 aracne12 (L8 OpCj) ASSERT(!in_bounds(you.pos()) || !cell_is_solid(you.pos()) || you.wizmode_teleported_into_rock) in 'movement.cc' at line 798 failed. (D:4) 05:07:53 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1049-gd495c7a (34) 06:08:20 <02sentei> Checking in regarding the 62 inventory slot pr, I saw that it has a merge conflict again with the minor tags. Should I keep updating it in case anyone is looking at it? 06:08:24 <02Monkooky> might be a good idea to wrap lantell's output in triple ticks 06:19:02 <06mumra> Was gonna say exactly this 06:52:11 Gandelf (L1 OnCj) ASSERT(valid_cursor_pos(pos.x, pos.y, region)) in 'libutil.cc' at line 404 failed. (invalid cursor position -34,9 in region 2, should be 3,9 in region 3) (D:1) 07:59:00 <06pleasingfungus> sentei: think it’s fine to let it sit for a little bit; don’t think you need to be on continual maintenance duty until someone’s ready. 08:32:44 <12ge0ff> hmm, is there any in-game way to check the description of Co gizmo effects, like revperry? 08:34:57 <12ge0ff> (also, not sure where it should be, in the Passive effects menu, ?/p or in items?) 08:40:06 <02sentei> You can read about the effect in the gizmo item description 08:40:50 <12ge0ff> what if a player wants to see all of them, like they can check all the mutations/spells/etc 08:42:12 <12ge0ff> like, even with wiz-mode, how am I supposed to check gizmo-exclusive effects? i have no idea! 08:43:29 <12ge0ff> changing xl to 14+ and back to 1 seems to show the same selection of gizmos 🤷‍♂️ 08:45:25 <02sentei> Not sure, one idea is it could be done as a base type for each gizmo effect? Similar to searching amulet and finding all of the base type amulets 08:52:15 <12ge0ff> Gizmos could probably be a separate category in the ?/ menu 09:01:32 <02sentei> pleasingfungus: sounds good to me. 09:08:04 <06pleasingfungus> ge0ff: it seems like the solution to this should also support showing other egos/artps, like needle egos etc 09:14:34 <12ge0ff> yeah, it could be an "Item egos/properties" category 11:27:34 New branch created: pull/3795 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3795 11:27:34 03Aliscans02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3795 * 0.32-a0-1050-ga8b22d4281: Fix a message for items giving magic regeneration. 10(19 hours ago, 1 file, 4+ 14-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a8b22d428101 11:50:07 <12ge0ff> Reposting from another Discord: Coglin's Invent Gizmo ability becomes available too early. Following the classic branch order, you usually get to XL14 on Lair:3-4, before you check what's in Orc and in the rest of the Dungeon. It's too early to know which resists you need for S-branches and for the rest of the game. 11:50:24 <12ge0ff> One way to address that and add something for Cos to look forward to is to split gizmos into two parts: * at XL 14, you get to choose a Coglin-exclusive ego, like revmp or autodazzle, and one resists/slay * at XL 22, you get the 2nd choice: an amulet ego or one more resist/slay 11:50:32 <12ge0ff> The problem is that there are only 4 Coglin-exclusive egos, so we'd need a few more. Although, there's an option to make evokable Invis Co- and ring of Shadows-exclusive (and reduce its Drain cost). 11:54:00 <04dracoomega> I feel it's worth pointing out that a very common sentiment I have seen elsewhere is that invent gizmo is currently available too late 11:54:20 <04dracoomega> (Like, almost certainly this is from worse players, but it does feel worth mentioning that I have seen that expresse repeatedly) 11:54:42 <04dracoomega> And that moving it even later would only exacerbate those perceptions 12:02:57 <12ge0ff> yeah, xl 14 could be too late, if you compare gizmos to Dr colours or Ds mutations 12:07:37 <12ge0ff> (independently, it'd be great to have Faith as an option for Gizmos) 12:08:09 <04dracoomega> I mean, balance-wise it's felt like a reasonable place to me - late enough to have some idea of other gear you have available to guide your decision, but early enough that it still feels like a power spike when you get it. 12:08:56 <04dracoomega> (I specifically left Faith out. Coglins have the lowest invo apt in the entire game, and I'm pretty sure there's a thematic connection there) 12:09:04 <04dracoomega> Like, it would be useful, but there's a specific reason it's not in the list 12:10:00 <04dracoomega> Though I am certainly game for some more gizmo modifiers in general, if decent ideas can be presented (still need to do something about RevMP at some point... >.>) 12:10:46 <12ge0ff> in my games, Orc loot and shops often already had resists I've acquired on a gizmo, so it was a bit of a "feel bad" moment 12:11:23 <12ge0ff> like, choosing between rF/rPois/rElec at XL 14 is just a guess 12:14:47 <04dracoomega> Somewhat, but I don't think it's entirely blind most of the time, either? 12:15:39 <04dracoomega> Coglin's current overall power level does seem more divisive than with most species, though, I think 12:16:10 <04dracoomega> Like, I've seen more complaints about them being weak than I think I have for any other species that other people think are very strong 12:16:37 <04dracoomega> Is that intrinsic to being so slanted towards being glass cannons, I wonder? 12:17:35 <04dracoomega> Since usually there's a more broad grouping of "Generally considered strong, even if people disagree on how strong" or "Generally considered weak, even if people disagree on how weak" compared to this "Coglins are a challenge species / coglins are really strong" business 12:17:38 <12ge0ff> (that's exactly how i'd describe them, "melee glass cannons") 12:23:43 <12ge0ff> if the player remembers about the "glass" part of "glass cannons" and finds decent armour/weapons, then Cos could feel pretty strong 12:40:35 <04dracoomega> (I must admit that I haven't really played them much since they 'stabilized' to have opinions on their power point which are worth a damn) 12:40:48 <04dracoomega> Too busy making things >.>; 14:17:26 <06mumra> I think the problem with XL:14 is for a relatively new player it seems a long way off. Even just reaching Temple or Lair is a huge achievement 14:19:42 <06mumra> What I would consider is having an earlier weak gizmo, like XL:7, and then the XL:14 one will replace this one you invent it (basically make give gizmos Fragile, so you can 14:21:35 <06mumra> Then even another round at XL:21 so you have another chance to sort out your build based on what you find after lair 14:25:23 <06mumra> Which would seem to sort out both of the complaints (XL:14 is too early vs XL:14 is too late) without making them overall stronger 14:34:28 <06dolorous_84348> If gizmos are going to get more options, might I suggest flight and/or invisibility? You could flavor them as the exo-suit's getting a jet pack, and/or enhanced enemy-detecting sensors. 14:44:10 <04dracoomega> I don't think we need to worry about flavor of why any gizmo is doing what they do, but I'd left those off the list since they felt fairly low impact and unexciting compared to other options 14:44:27 <04dracoomega> (More things can be bundled together at once for a single modifier, but at some point that gets a little long) 14:44:42 <06dolorous_84348> Okay. Just a thought. 14:44:52 <04dracoomega> But I'm inclined to think flight+see invis together is still worth less than other minor mods 14:45:55 <06dolorous_84348> Maybe the hypothetical jet pack could provide something other than flight, but the only alternative I can think of steps on Barachim toes. 14:46:22 <04dracoomega> I've seen suggestions in a few places about going through a succession of gizmos as you level, and there's some merit to it, but have never been sure that the potential benefits of it were worth the loss in elegance. (I'm pretty sure elliptic was opposed, when this came up in past, for instance) 14:46:38 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Finally, a reason to bring back Boots of the Spider?...) 14:47:39 <06dolorous_84348> What exactly do you mean by loss in elegance? 14:49:04 <06dolorous_84348> Given the description of the exo-suits as something under continual development. 14:49:50 <04dracoomega> Well, from a mechanical perspective, I mean. A single big important decision, rather than a sequence of smaller ones (and then deciding when to overwrite one with another, and what to override it with) 14:51:00 <06dolorous_84348> Ah. 14:58:30 <04dracoomega> To be clear, I am not categorically opposed to the idea, just uncertain. (And I'm pretty sure others were more opposed) 14:58:56 <04dracoomega> Would really like to play some more coglins to have my own sense of what they feel like these days. (Eventually >.>) 15:03:03 <06dolorous_84348> I've played some of them, and the sense I get is "the best defense is a good offense" works with them (much like oni, except of course oni don't dual-wield). Although I'm not that good of a player. 15:03:29 <06dolorous_84348> Although maybe part of that is I refuse to take the easiest options a lot of the time. 15:04:12 <06dolorous_84348> And for the record, I find new Mountain Dwarves a lot more interesting than the old ones. 15:04:29 <06mumra> My personal experience on my last good coglin run (which was a while ago as well) was the decision ended up feeling bad because I later wished i took a different gizmo than the one i went with 15:06:56 <04dracoomega> I wonder how much worse is than acquirements sometimes are, where you almost immediately end up wishing you'd picked a different option after finding something better for that slot? 15:08:14 <06mumra> 🙂 exactly it's like that but multiplied, because you know you don't get another chance to make a better decision (to "put right what once went wrong" so to speak) 15:09:07 <06mumra> with a bad acquirement choice you're kicking yourself for a while, but sooner or later you find something else better and you forget all about that 15:10:16 <06mumra> with the gizmo i had to live with it for the rest of the game 15:11:09 <04dracoomega> Was it really that entirely superseded by something else you found? Like, sure, "Would have picked B instead of A if I had known" but wouldn't it still have been doing something of value? 15:12:15 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Another pressing question: is this that much worse than not having any control over the set in the first place, like demonspawn?) 15:12:21 <06mumra> sure it was, but it was kinda plain - it was weeks ago now so details are slightly hazy - i think i picked RegenMP+RegenHP but wished i'd tried out autodazzle 15:13:03 <06mumra> because sure regen is good but you can have that on any character so it felt really plain (and so maybe that's the problem with that ego) 15:21:12 <06mumra> it's a good point but i think it's not the same thing, i'm struggling to really explain why though 🙂 15:31:36 <06mumra> Btw .. i made a version of yaktaur glyphcaster as i was testing some another monster with range reduction as another possible yaktaur support option. but i know DracoOmega has been working on monsters and i wanted to check i am not duplicating work here? and i'm wondering if you had anything else in mind for glyphcasters other than sigil? 15:33:16 <04dracoomega> I hadn't done any implementation work on glyphcasters yet. I'm honestly pretty uncertain whether the semi-ring-of-sigils works out to be better for the players or monsters in practice and would need to test it locally before reaching conclusions on that. (ie: does it effectively constrain the player's movement in interesting ways without just allowing them to use it to easily retreat from enemies instead?) 15:33:58 <04dracoomega> Like, it's fine if sometimes the player can use it to their advantage. It's a question of frequency ratios: how often does this impede the player vs. help the player vs. do nothing meaningful 15:35:33 <04dracoomega> And I don't really feel I have a good sense on that question without playing around with it for a bit 15:37:11 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-1049-gd495c7ad2a (34) 15:38:03 <06mumra> my initial version i've allowed at least the caster to ignore the traps themselves 15:40:39 <06mumra> i didn't actually test it yet, just had some odd build issue and i'm reconstructing the branch 15:41:14 <06mumra> (and to be clear, that's only for monster version, player version still works the same) 15:41:16 <04dracoomega> Given that they have a ranged attack, I'm not sure they need to ignore it 15:42:02 <06mumra> was just thinking along the lines you were that the player can use it to their advantage 15:42:12 <06mumra> i mean functionally it's the same as the player just casting the spell themselves otherwise 15:42:41 <06mumra> the monster version could even be clearly different and not trap any monsters, only the player and their allies 15:52:24 <04dracoomega> You see, given that monsters get swiftness after stepping on sigils anyway, it seemed possible that it was actually fine as-is. Even the player version is bad to fleeing things unless you can duck away somewhere in a short length of time. It felt like a cute way to 'weaponize' that if it was a part of the enemy spell that actually felt like a net benefit over time 15:53:16 <04dracoomega> Like, I suspect you're not actually happy about that warden stepping on one if you had a long distance to flee, because that can mean it actually catches you when it otherwise wouldn't 15:54:50 <06mumra> now it's finally building. on initial testing it's mostly rather easy to step around the sigils unless you're in a 1-tile corridor 15:56:10 <04dracoomega> How many did you have it place? 15:56:20 <06mumra> right, i see 15:57:05 <06mumra> only 2 at a time, but it doesn't remove old ones like player version 15:57:08 <06mumra> so i did end up here 15:57:10 <06mumra> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1236089197169872986/image.png?ex=6636bd46&is=66356bc6&hm=39821dd3d8e5c091cd40f3725ee697c5addd16df1ce737392520c3570f4613d0& 16:01:28 <06regret-⸸nde※> Even if they're sidesteppable, movement constraints in general slow down hitting polterguardians if one cares about the rmsl, keeping close to thunderhulks to prevent their thunder, and prevents getting away from walls for frosthearts. 16:02:12 <04dracoomega> (I had probably initially imagined 3-4 on a single cast, I'm a bit unsure about so many piling up over time like that) 16:03:02 <04dracoomega> Though them changing the layout of existing ones whenever they feel like is also slightly awkward, hmmm 16:03:45 <06mumra> but yeah placing more at once, or changing the logic for placement, could make it more threatening (the algorithm is slightly fiddly and i'm wondering if there's actually a mistake there, because it doesn't exactly align with what one of the comments says ... at the moment there will be one sigil adjacent to the target, and then one not adjacent to the target, but the comments indicate it's just not supposed to be adjacent to the 16:03:46 other sigil) 16:07:15 <06mumra> to be honest that probably wouldn't happen in normal play, i am just stepping around a lot letting them cast it as much as they want. if i was actively trying to kill them here they wouldn't still be there 16:11:04 <04dracoomega> Oh, I just planned to have them surround the player with them. Well, place some random number adjacent to the player 16:13:54 <06mumra> ah i literally just reused the same logic as player version 16:14:01 <04dracoomega> Things placed at radius 2 have far too low a chance of actually impeding the player in a meaningful way, imo 16:14:37 <04dracoomega> But 'partial ring around where the player currently is' may easily block off the most direct route of either engagement or retreat, and has a higher chance of doing something 16:18:15 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1050-ga0a6642542: Let Flash Freeze damage targets that already have Frozen status 10(2 days ago, 3 files, 6+ 27-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a0a664254214 16:18:15 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1051-gf3e26c52f0: Increase the effectiveness of the Frozen status 10(31 hours ago, 5 files, 8+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f3e26c52f06b 16:18:15 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1052-g66f656e766: Seismic Cannonade -> Hoarfrost Cannonade (lv 5 Ice/Alchemy) 10(31 hours ago, 36 files, 179+ 302-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/66f656e76643 16:18:15 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1053-g7561cb4b74: Fix a couple missing message recolorings 10(31 hours ago, 2 files, 3+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7561cb4b74c5 16:18:15 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1054-gf64a43db20: Hellfire Mortar (level 7 Fire/Earth spell) 10(2 hours ago, 21 files, 369+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f64a43db205b 16:18:15 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1055-g706e7c35db: Improve behavior if player ends up in a wall due to terrain changes 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 17+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/706e7c35db21 16:18:15 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1056-ge8f873248b: Remove an unused bolt member 10(2 hours ago, 2 files, 0+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e8f873248be7 16:18:15 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1057-gd6975a0968: Tweak Curse of Agony description for clarity 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d6975a0968af 16:18:15 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1058-ga603194e1b: Lightly tweak Fulsome Fusillade 10(83 minutes ago, 2 files, 11+ 7-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a603194e1b83 16:18:15 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1059-g799ce95f6c: Tweak Rimeblight a little more heavily 10(18 minutes ago, 5 files, 31+ 14-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/799ce95f6cd2 16:18:15 ... and 2 more commits 16:47:01 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1062-ga89ee85f61: Use @reflexive@ more in monster spells/speech. 10(21 minutes ago, 2 files, 9+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a89ee85f6172 16:47:01 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1063-ga27d9813d7: Fix wording and punctuation. 10(15 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a27d9813d7e1 16:47:01 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1064-ge7eec5b58b: Fix some Rimeblight messaging for named monsters. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e7eec5b58b95 18:29:17 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1065-g04caa866ee: Fix comment typo. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/04caa866ee52 18:49:45 <06pleasingfungus> rip seismic cannonade 18:49:52 <06pleasingfungus> you were briefly with us... but you will always be loved 18:54:07 <02Monkooky> Hmmmmmmmm can you martyr's knell to double hoarfrost cannonade shots 19:39:38 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 19:39:38 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 19:39:53 <04dracoomega> It felt like getting a 5th shot was common. Of course, I've not used it in a real game, just a bunch of example battles of various sorts. 19:40:46 <06pleasingfungus> will be excited to see feedback 🙂 19:40:48 <04dracoomega> You can dig in place to melee things while cannons provide supportive damage (as Ice often wants to do) or you can take advantage of their slowing to pull things back over longer distances to let the cannons pepper them, both 19:41:25 <04dracoomega> (If the numbers are a bit too low, that sort of adjustment is easy, of course) 19:41:40 <06pleasingfungus> regret-index: i’d just feel a trifle awkward saying it out loud. but the beauty of online video games is i don’t have to 🙂 19:43:58 <04dracoomega> I take full comfort in knowing it's just literally the normal word for a normal thing 19:44:01 <04dracoomega> imo ^^; 19:44:33 <06pleasingfungus> fair enough! 19:44:56 <02Monkooky> hoarfrost is somethin I was familiar with from... D&D maybe? 19:45:24 <02Monkooky> it's definitely a thing that shows up in enough fantasy that you aren't gonna get many accidental misunderstandings 19:47:32 <06pleasingfungus> one must use every elemental synonym. 19:52:50 <06regret-⸸nde※> * offhandedly gestures at RW2 having 11/37 Lightning spells and skills named with the word Lightning, four with Storm, and three with Thunder * 19:54:00 <06pleasingfungus> zap 19:55:09 <02Monkooky> tbh just name the next spell irradiateaga 19:57:44 <06regret-⸸nde※> Sure is easier to uniquely name spells in this next project using Ink, Slyph, Glitch, and Plasma elements. 19:57:48 <09hellmonk> she hoar on my cannon till i frost 20:00:44 Einwand (L26 FoWr) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Depths:4) 20:02:15 <02Monkooky> man does anyone grok targetters 20:02:45 <02Monkooky> I'm trying to only allow targetting orthogonally adjacent tiles 20:24:08 <09gammafunk> sounds like you could start with targeter_beam or targeter_smite with range 1 and just override ::valid_aim 20:25:35 <09gammafunk> and from there you're just doing straightforward arithmetic conditions on the pos to check for cardinal directions 20:26:42 <09gammafunk> but this would probably be simple enough just completely implement a new subclass, using e.g. the smite targeter as an example 20:39:37 <02Monkooky> ah, valid_aim is the one I need! 20:39:40 <02Monkooky> thanks! 22:35:27 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1065-g04caa866ee (34) 22:58:30 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1065-g04caa866ee 23:34:00 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1065-g04caa866ee (34) 23:48:36 03Monkooky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3775 * 0.32-a0-898-gbab4c71868: miscellaneous cleanup 10(14 seconds ago, 6 files, 33+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bab4c7186829 23:50:45 03Monkooky02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3775 * 0.32-a0-899-g847d8ab98b: Update crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/spells.txt 10(55 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/847d8ab98ba2 23:55:23 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1065-g04caa866ee