00:02:44 <04d​racoomega> 'Glyph' feels a little too non-solid to me. Like, I get the thematic association with golem instructions and such, but there are plenty of other solid things that would be in this school and somehow that feels more like 'making magical circles' or item enchantment or something 00:04:15 <04d​racoomega> And less 'I made a cannon' (or several other creature/projectile possibilities) 00:04:43 <04d​racoomega> ('Fabrication' probably feels too modern... ) 00:07:56 <06m​umra> My take was kind that you'd be making a cannon, but inscribing it with glyphs to actually make it self operational 00:09:57 <06m​umra> hmm 00:10:01 <06m​umra> "Imagineering" 00:13:16 <06m​umra> "Forming" sorta works 00:16:34 <06m​umra> or "Forgery" even 00:20:53 <02M​onkooky> to be honest I'm not clear on what purpose this serves 00:21:01 <02M​onkooky> maybe I missed the start of the convo 00:28:20 <04d​racoomega> The original idea of some future summonings school split wasn't actually my idea originally, but I had been thinking about it recently in the context of endless internal design brainstorming for what to do with cannonade (and a number of other cute ideas, not all of which maybe have room). I think the meat of the discussion today starts here? https://discord.com/channels/735056636644687913/747522859361894521/1234978158000734318 00:31:20 <04d​racoomega> To be clear, it's not something I'm in a rush to do before there seems to be enough actually good and cool things to fill it out. But a handful of things I want to try for 0.32 (or revise among what I've already done) turn out to be a natural fit for this theoretical school and I am conscious of how otherwise alchemy possibly ends up disproportionally full compared to adjacent schools. (And there are a number of other 00:31:21 side-benefits, some of which are already mentioned above) 00:34:35 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (The main parts are: 1: there's a ton of spells already in Summoning in various over-full, inherently competing capacities- the five level 7 summoning spells being the most obvious manifestation, which this can mildly reduce the burden of by shoving Servitor into another school, but also it's hard to try to fit in other new summon spells because most crawl spells appear in most games and thus nearly everything has to compete 00:34:35 against the best options at each level unless they cross into weird schools; 2: it could easily delineate which "object" or "mindless" summons shouldn't have the gods who care about not hurting allies but who don't preserve one's allies from random damage, and 3: it can deal with a bunch of old flavour oddities, like artificers having a pretty finite and specific form of artifice or the schools of e.g. Blastmotes and Dazzling Flash.) 00:37:48 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Personally, while I understand the merits, the inherent nature of having to go reconfigure Summoner as a start again feels immensely precarious. While I've regularly helped Draco hammer out a lot of already-implemented and potentially-upcoming spells since this return, I think the needed extra stuff to fill up a new school when we've only just started in spaces like "high level Alchemy" or "more than just six 00:37:48 directly-damaging Ice spells" is quite the low priority in practice.) 00:38:51 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Though, if it could help with V not having enough enemies...) 00:40:59 <04d​racoomega> Yeah, summoner start is I think the biggest concern point here (beyond just making more spells for forgecraft). High-level stuff for them is fairly fine. 00:41:32 <04d​racoomega> So like... it would need some good and fun idea of what that would be replaced with (which I've not spent any time on yet) 00:41:57 <04d​racoomega> (The very low level part of forgecraft would be comparatively simple, I think. Those spells don't need to last so long) 02:04:23 <06m​umra> > most crawl spells appear in most games and thus nearly everything has to compete against the best options at each level unless they cross into weird schools I wonder if it's possible to make this not the case by bringing in spell rotation similar to item sets (and maybe Vehumet then being the only way to access certain spells if they are not in the rotation) 02:08:01 <06m​umra> Or maybe they'd generate rarely in shops but they'd be "artifact books" costing 10x the price so they're only affordable in extended 02:12:06 Rallik (L27 DjCj) Crash caused by signal #11: Segmentation fault (Vaults:5) 03:32:22 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5199-gb287095a7e 05:07:28 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1038-ga127011 (34) 07:54:23 <06p​leasingfungus> god-exclusive spells (eg veh or kiku exclusives) are an idea that comes up from time to time. 07:55:40 <06p​leasingfungus> i’m not fully sold on the idea of every spell competing with everything and most spells appearing in most games, though. especially in a 3 rune game, access to spells is significantly limited 07:56:49 <06p​leasingfungus> and this is something we could push more toward if desired, esp if we’re moving to single spell books, without having to introduce something as limiting as spell sets 08:00:19 <06p​leasingfungus> i definitely agree with regret-index that golemsmithing school is low priority. i just think it’s fun 08:00:59 <06p​leasingfungus> it also moves dcss closer to rift wizard, which amuses me. 09:30:34 <09g​ammafunk> one day I will play a rift wizard 09:36:04 <06p​leasingfungus> nope 09:36:05 <06p​leasingfungus> too late 09:36:13 <06p​leasingfungus> now you need to play rw2 09:38:50 <09g​ammafunk> I said "a rift wizard" for that reason (what if I'm only able to play rw3?) 09:43:58 <06p​leasingfungus> maybe my next game should be a rift wizard. 09:44:11 <06p​leasingfungus> feels hard to out rift rw, though. 09:44:21 <06p​leasingfungus> maybe you could do more with terrain. 09:45:02 <09g​ammafunk> imo make a rift wizard wizlab or portal or turn desolation into rift wizard a prototype and test case 09:47:16 <06p​leasingfungus> cunning 09:47:42 <06p​leasingfungus> tukima’s is very slightly like rw 09:50:15 <06p​leasingfungus> think the key for a rw wizlab would be to have summon statues that operate out of los, with prerevealed locations 09:50:36 <06p​leasingfungus> time pressure - go find and break all these summoners before they spawn too many monsters! 09:50:54 <06p​leasingfungus> could be a rework for that one wizlab with ghost monks or w/e 09:55:14 <03w​heals> as long as it has Rift in it 10:16:19 <06d​olorous_84348> Same here. 10:40:25 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (I've got, like, ten paragraphs in me about how RW2's experimental systems pushing away from RW1 currently makes it worse until more iteration are done on it. Spent a decent while trying to give feedback in their server, but despite getting regular agreement from others, never got much acknowledgement from the solo dev. Such is fate.) 10:42:13 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Also, the easy way to out rift RW is to go in Cryptark's direction next, considering how harmless 80% of gates are in RW2.) 11:17:32 <09h​ellmonk> i would out-rw rw easily 11:17:40 <09h​ellmonk> simple as 11:19:39 <04d​racoomega> I think doing something like item rotations for spells is significantly more troubled for a multitude of reasons, incidentally. Players do long-term training of skills on the expectation that they will be extremely likely to find at least some useful subset of the high-end spells of a school they're training. There are so many spells in Crawl that you cannot establish for a long time whether those spells are in the pool or not at 11:19:39 all. Imagine going Ice only to find that like... Freezing Cloud, Permafrost, and Refrigeration weren't even in the pool? How would the player even know that what they were doing was 'pointless'? (And informing the player of what is in the pool at the start of the game feels like it's inviting start scumming in this context) Current book system also makes it very hard to exclude some spells independently of other spells (though there may be reasons to 11:19:40 adjust this system anyway, as discussed in past conversations) I think curation of 'what alternates with what' in any sane context is really, really hard for spells, also, as schools don't provide easy mirrors of each other - both in terms of how key individual parts may be, but also the distribution across level ranges and roles. Wands were designed from the ground up to allow easy alternation between sets (and what things are in this set are 11:19:40 established early), but spells have nothing comparable. 11:45:56 another point is that while one likely has a high percentage of available spells at the end of a 3-rune game, many are either long past their relevance or too late to pivot to when found anyway, so that in itself does some of the job of item sets 11:53:30 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (I could quibble a fair bit about spell availability being highly influenced by doing Elf:$ pre-Vaults-and-Depths or pre-S:$-and-S:$ or stuck-right-before-V:$-and-Zot, but determining the playerbase's branch order in such a fashion needs a lot more bot query knowledge than I've got off-hand.) 13:47:06 mcore (L1 TeNe) ASSERT(valid_cursor_pos(pos.x, pos.y, region)) in 'libutil.cc' at line 404 failed. (invalid cursor position -33,9 in region 2, should be 4,9 in region 3) (D:1) 18:52:49 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1039-ge5262815a4: Fix spelling. 10(88 seconds ago, 1 file, 9+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e5262815a434 18:57:54 04Build failed for 08master @ e5262815 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/8917473064 19:40:02 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 19:40:02 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 21:49:20 New branch created: pull/3791 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3791 21:49:21 03dolorous02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3791 * 0.32-a0-1040-g72e03f5f46: Add rare fire-themed temple to Ignis and Makhleb. 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 33+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/72e03f5f463c 22:08:38 <06p​leasingfungus> presumably it should go wherever the slime temple and corrupted temples are 22:20:44 <06d​olorous_84348> That would be in temple.des, but a temple with only 2 gods in it seems a bit much. Then again, there's the rare temple there with no gods in it, so maybe not. 22:23:51 <06d​olorous_84348> Also the rare temple with only one god in it. But that one also doesn't pick which god is there. 22:35:18 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1039-ge5262815a4 (34) 22:57:45 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1039-ge5262815a4 23:00:35 03dolorous02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3791 * 0.32-a0-1040-g71d62bccb1: Add rare fire-themed temple to Ignis and Makhleb. 10(6 hours ago, 1 file, 33+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/71d62bccb1f8 23:02:44 <06d​olorous_84348> Apparently, trying to add a temple entry with two named gods and no random ones just makes things crash when you try to place it. So if it needs to go in temple.des, it will need some special syntax to fix that which I currently don't know. 23:13:03 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1039-ge5262815a4 (34) 23:55:02 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1039-ge5262815a4