00:04:32 -!- TAS-2012v is now known as TAS_2012v 00:08:50 -!- TAS-2012v is now known as TAS_2012v 03:32:55 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5199-gb287095a7e 05:08:01 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1028-gf613fa2 (34) 10:59:38 <04dracoomega> I wouldn't actually expect them to get it, to be honest? Like, I can see the argument because it's a 'mirror' of your own conjurations, but Vehumet doesn't support summons in general and won't boost the range of other summons that are directly casting spells. And, tbh, I don't think the player almost ever specifically has to care about the range of the servitor. It mostly does its own thing. 11:00:12 <04dracoomega> I wouldn't say I'm exactly opposed to it strongly, I suppose, but it feels more like this would be making a special-case of it rather than patching a missing case, if that makes sense? 11:01:59 <04dracoomega> Regarding Frozen Ramparts and Bog (and really, Hailstorm again, I suppose), I guess these are using 'range' in a way that is normally 'area of effect' and Veh doesn't make your fireballs have bigger explosions either. So maybe Flame Wave is actually the weird exception in all this? (But on the other hand, I can't help but feel like the effect it has on flame wave actually is cool and noteworthy, and that a little more of that might 11:01:59 be good for Veh) 11:04:32 <02Monkooky> My suspicion is that Bog is not LOS range to begin with for jank avoidance reasons 11:05:14 <06mumra> Would still not be LOS range with a +1 (normally anyway) 11:05:36 <02Monkooky> thought it ran one short of LOS 11:05:56 <06mumra> It's range 4 11:12:46 <06mumra> So range 5 with boost -- with robe of darkness that could be full LOS 11:13:22 <02Monkooky> damn, buff bog please 11:21:58 Meowism (L21 CoIE) ERROR in 'tags.cc' at line 5127: Invalid item: (quantity: 0) gold piece (Depths:3) 11:22:27 New branch created: pull/3785 (5 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3785 11:22:29 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3785 * 0.32-a0-1026-g19e649536e: Add monster weapons and brand damage to x-v 10(6 hours ago, 1 file, 141+ 26-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/19e649536ec2 11:22:29 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3785 * 0.32-a0-1027-g2b8711693a: Improve x-v for AF_PURE_FIRE, AF_DRAIN; fix damage being off-by-one 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 13+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2b8711693aa6 11:22:29 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3785 * 0.32-a0-1028-gad7ba80d0b: Include slaying equipment in monster damage on x-v 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 44+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ad7ba80d0b9d 11:22:29 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3785 * 0.32-a0-1029-ge89e8998e9: Completely fold monster throwing/ranged into the x-v attack table 10(70 minutes ago, 1 file, 104+ 30-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e89e8998e990 11:22:29 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3785 * 0.32-a0-1030-g6e6c02a210: Remove separate quiver line in x-v 10(37 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 18-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6e6c02a21022 11:22:43 <04dracoomega> Incidentally, if you wanted 'spell range suppression' to be an aura, I'd much rather it be a torpor-snail style aura than I would a silence-style one that has a limited range itself that needs to be tracked. (Wasn't sure exactly which you meant in your description up there). 11:23:37 <04dracoomega> Also: wow, definitely need to check that out (along with several other things they've done recently, I vaguely recall >.>) 11:23:45 <04dracoomega> Also so many things to want to do 11:25:10 <06mumra> I mean fireballs get to throw further, which is already quite significant for Fireball. Increasing the explosion as well would just be ludicrous 🙂 It seems like a good special casing to remove anyway and I'll make it a separate commit so it can be easily reverted 11:26:32 <06mumra> (Yeah was using your new aura system already 👍 but I am rethinking that monster design a bit anyway) 11:27:36 <04dracoomega> Oh, huh, Veh already works for IMB 11:27:41 <04dracoomega> Not sure I knew that, actually 11:27:49 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3785 * 0.32-a0-1031-gd75425bd0f: Nessos fix 10(19 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d75425bd0f41 11:27:49 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3785 * 0.32-a0-1032-ge230eadc39: unbrace 10(79 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e230eadc3943 11:33:05 <06mumra> I need to get my to-hit fixes in as well, it also improves x-v info (and maybe the % should be shown in these new attack tables then, I think ranged vs melee will have different %s?) 11:33:09 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3785 * 0.32-a0-1033-gd3951aba09: Remove dragon slaying 10(67 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d3951aba09d8 11:46:35 mumra: I was also thinking that - the table is running out of horizontal space a bit so we might struggle to fit to-hit in it, but it would clearly be better 11:47:10 does monster accuracy take into account weapon base accuracy/enchantment/slaying? because if so I imagine to-hit chances are different for different monster attacks too sometimes 11:50:22 <06mumra> Yeah it does 11:51:56 <06mumra> It's rather simpler than player version but yeah 11:52:07 <06mumra> I strongly suspect that melee and throwing will actually be the same but I'd need to test 11:55:31 <06mumra> It needs the stuff from my branch for sure as it unifies everything and makes numbers consistent 11:55:49 <06mumra> I wonder about add a 2nd line per attack rather than trying to fit more into the horizontal space? 11:55:56 <06mumra> So to-hit is shown below damage 11:56:39 hmm possibly... 11:56:50 is there a reason the UI is strictly limited to 80-char width? 11:57:25 <04dracoomega> Old console support 11:57:32 <06mumra> Alternately you just list the to-hits below as a separate section given that some might be the same 50% to hit with 40% to hit with melee and thrown 12:09:31 <06mumra> The special casing would be fairly transparent with the refactor -- I added a check for monsters if their religion is GOD_VEHUMET they will get a range boost; so player ghosts of vehumet worshippers will get increased range (a change which itself I am not 100% sure about - I don't know how desirable it is for ghosts to inherit god abilities? Their religion certainly gets set so I would assume it has some effects somewhere...) So given 12:09:31 this it would just be a case of setting the servitor religion to vehumet and they'd get it too... 12:13:36 <06mumra> Justification-wise, well it's the only summons that is also a conjuration, so it'd be thematically reasonable for it to have a different relationship with Vehumet than other summons (but, I can easily see the arguments against this as well, so I'll leave it out anyway) 12:21:05 <06mumra> On a cursory search through the codebase I can't find any other examples of player ghosts having any effect from their god, other than possibly flavour text so maybe I should leave that out as well; maybe a possible separate project to give ghosts more god flavoured abilities (I think I vaguely recall reading this suggestion on the dev wiki or the tavern eons ago) 12:28:04 the question there being whether it should be the god they worshipped while alive (but how do good gods feel about this?) or e.g. Yred? 12:29:52 <04dracoomega> Currently ghosts get no benefits of their religion in life, though, so it would seem strange to me to add this one specific thing. 12:30:02 <04dracoomega> Oh, you just also said that ^^; 12:30:19 <04dracoomega> (Frankly, I mostly feel like it's easier not to open that can of worms) 12:30:53 <04dracoomega> And then start worrying about which god abilities can even be reasonable implemented for enemies, which gods would still allow worship by a ghost, etc, etc. 12:41:32 !crash 12:41:42 28066. Meowism, XL21 CoIE, T:85775 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Meowism/crash-Meowism-20240427-182157.txt 12:42:11 <04dracoomega> I have seen that crash from time to time for probably months now. Don't even really know where to start looking into it, though. 12:43:17 Indeed, seems very hard to diagnose how you could end up with a pile of 0 gold 12:44:06 <04dracoomega> Although, I notice now that they're with gozag. I wonder if the earlier crashes also were. 12:45:33 probably none of the good gods would allow ghost worship 12:45:37 <04dracoomega> Okay, I just checked another 3 of them and they are 12:45:53 <04dracoomega> So it seems plausible that it's specifically to do with Gozag somehow 12:47:22 <04dracoomega> It always seems to happen from entering a floor, though I'm a little curious as to how it doesn't usually seem to be a blocking crash (ie: if there's a bad item saved on a floor, why wouldn't there always be when the floor was re-entered, preventing them from progressing entirely?) 12:50:51 <04dracoomega> Oh, I wonder if it could be something about that weird effect of Gozag's to move gold onto the top of item piles when you enter a level 12:55:08 <04dracoomega> I categorically hate most of Crawl's item handling backend, though ^^; 12:55:48 <04dracoomega> It would be one thing if I had a reproducible crash for this 12:58:26 <06mumra> I mean now I'm even thinking about it, there shouldn't even be any ghosts of the good gods, cos they've all gone to heaven right? 12:59:09 consistency? in my crawl? 13:02:54 <06pleasingfungus> clearly they haven’t 🙂 13:03:02 <06pleasingfungus> does crawl lore even have a heaven? 13:04:21 <04dracoomega> I don't think there's any particular mention of it 13:04:34 <04dracoomega> Frankly, it's ambiguous how Hell even factors into an 'afterlife' in Crawl 13:17:33 <06dolorous_84348> Maybe the good gods' worshippers join them in the Tripartite Holy Realm, or something, and heaven's just the shorter name for it. Although it wouldn't really be heaven for those who don't buy into the good gods' viewpoint. But ghosts hanging around the dungeon or going off to some afterlife state adds some ambiguity. 13:20:06 <06dolorous_84348> Too much detail turns it into a can of worms. Do the chaotic gods have (for lack of a better term) Chaos Heaven? Does Gozag have the Divine-Treasury But Named Differently So As Not To Impinge On Star Trek Ferengi? Etc. 13:20:51 <06dolorous_84348> The same applies to hells, even with the in-game hells. 13:21:19 <06regret-⸸nde※> Clearly the mass murders players do in a good god's name excludes them from a more peaceful afterlife. 13:22:07 <06dolorous_84348> Indeed. It's not really heaven for them unles you pull in targets for them to kill from somewhere else, but is that really a good act? 13:22:26 <06dolorous_84348> But goodness in-game is yet another can of worms. 13:23:26 <12ge0ff> there are a few mentions of the (?) heaven in flavour texts: sacred scourge: A blessed weapon, woven by the saints in Heaven and hated by the unholy. eudemon blade: A sacred blade from the forges of Heaven, inhabited by a good spirit. 13:24:15 <06dolorous_84348> Indeed, but it's also a contrast to hell (compare the demon whip's description to that of the sacred scourge). 13:24:18 <12ge0ff> (basically, a TSO's shield and weapons factory) 13:25:12 <06dolorous_84348> "It's not TSO heaven anymore, since we've made everything TSO said was evil extinct! Maybe turn them in eudemon plowshares now?" 13:26:01 <06dolorous_84348> Or you just wound them badly enough, and Ely heals them, and you do it all over again. 13:26:30 <06dolorous_84348> Although that has its own issues. 13:29:12 <06dolorous_84348> TSO shield and weapons factory, Ely hospital, and Zin... lecture circuit? 13:34:25 <06dolorous_84348> And whatever Yred had before their fall, now that I think about it. 13:41:06 <06regret-⸸nde※> The prisons for those who break laws in the afterlife, obviously. 13:42:21 <06dolorous_84348> Perfect! 13:53:19 <04dracoomega> Thinking I may have unraveled this Gozag bug 13:53:41 <04dracoomega> After a bunch of "Oh, I think this is it!" and then finding out some reason it wasn't it 13:53:43 <04dracoomega> Except that it was 13:58:29 <04dracoomega> Right now trying to track the history of a somewhat dangerously lying comment 13:59:12 what was yred god of before their fall? 14:15:11 <06dolorous_84348> Wardens? 14:17:34 ah, the infinite mercy of a good god, operating heaven prisons instead of dragging posthumous evildoers directly to Crawl Hell for afterlife crimes (not a sentence I thought I'd be typing today!) 14:17:47 (incidentally, more worms for the worm can of religious player ghosts include that player ghost dialogue is already presently mixed on whether they actually still worship their old god for all good gods and even some non-good gods) 14:18:27 <06dolorous_84348> Especially if there's overlap. Maybe Zin's heaven and Xom's hell are the same place? 14:18:56 relative hell 14:19:42 <02Monkooky> also known as thanksgiving dinner 14:20:51 <06dolorous_84348> And what about those who don't fit one place so well? "I like order, but not that much, and a self-important god reciting laws at me for eternity isn't my idea of bliss." 14:21:04 <04dracoomega> I feel like a ghost thinking they still worship a god is quite different from the god thinking this 14:21:13 <04dracoomega> If it's just stuff the ghost is saying 14:21:28 <04dracoomega> They might well be some echo of a living memory, stuck in stasis 14:22:10 * geekosaur imagines a pghost that died while doing Recite, still doing so in eternity 14:22:15 several already *explicitly* don't worship their god, so if we're picking one or the other, that's the one to pick 14:22:29 (also that level of extra enemy complexity seems both unenviable to implement and for players to learn with ghosts' current state of being jailed and spread far apart) 14:23:11 <04dracoomega> The mortuary portals are still a good idea for ghost mechanical relevance, imo, but that doesn't really change that point 14:24:47 <06dolorous_84348> Or that's what certain gods want you to think, because the alternative (the so-called good gods abandoned you as soon as you were no longer useful to their purposes in this world) would discredit them 👿 14:25:26 is that why Yred quit the club? 14:25:42 <06dolorous_84348> Maybe... 14:26:09 sure is a lot more fond of undead in their service! 14:26:20 <06dolorous_84348> Exactly. 14:26:51 <06dolorous_84348> And others the good gods turn down due to nothing more than species. 14:27:16 <06dolorous_84348> (Although the foul flame lore doesn't mention whether the demonic test subjects were willing ones or not.) 14:27:36 <06dolorous_84348> (I deliberately left that ambiguous, for that reason.) 14:27:55 <06dolorous_84348> (Don't want to make the sides too obvious, after all.) 14:31:49 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-1029-g232a111982: Fix a rare Gozag crash 10(65 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/232a11198252 14:32:33 <04dracoomega> Dang, I forgot to specify in the commit message that it only caused a crash if the last chunk was the one to roll 0 gold, and not any other chunk 14:34:16 04Build failed for 08master @ 232a1119 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/8862714064 14:36:05 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-1030-g7194ef5473: Add fish name to artefacts. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7194ef5473c0 14:36:25 <06regret-⸸nde※> (I always thought that in crawl most of the damned were stuck in a perpetual undead state entirely outside of necromantic magics, with thus all the undead in the hells rather than any features actually depicting tortured souls trapped in cages / statues / walls / liquids / etcera.) 14:36:39 dracoomega: I think that can be inferred from the commit message anyway; nice fix 14:37:20 <06dolorous_84348> So the ghosts are undead, but not damned undead? 14:37:35 <06dolorous_84348> (Except for ghosts in hell, I mean.) 14:38:05 <06regret-⸸nde※> No ghost vaults can spawn in the hells, of course. 14:38:19 <06dolorous_84348> I thought so, but I wasn't sure. 14:39:18 04Build failed for 08master @ 7194ef54 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/8862738767 14:39:22 <06dolorous_84348> Good to know for certain. 14:39:52 <06regret-⸸nde※> Some sort of different-severities-of-punishment schemas, some sort of bit about Yred deciding to no longer imprisoning the dead, so on, and so forth. 14:40:31 <06regret-⸸nde※> (It'd probably be overly edgy to actually depict anybody being tortured in hell, though it's clearly a state somewhat implied by stokers and tainted leviathans, I guess.) 14:40:58 <06dolorous_84348> And possibly searing wretches, if you compare them to the old flaming corpses. 14:42:29 <06dolorous_84348> And anchorites/anchoresses are effectively willing holy prisoners. 14:44:37 <06pleasingfungus> @dracoomega omg you’re my hero 14:44:44 <06pleasingfungus> that gozag bug has been triggering for so long 14:45:29 <06pleasingfungus> i looked into it years ago but failed to get past > Which was already specifically guarded against! Piles of 0 gold will not be placed by _explode_corpse. 14:46:13 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I had a number of false starts of "Oh, it's this! ...wait, it literally can't be that." But I did get it to crash once by doing it, so I knew there had to be some reason it was sometimes possible 14:46:24 <06pleasingfungus> good encouragement 14:46:45 <06pleasingfungus> sometimes you need a good failure before you can succeed. 14:46:45 <04dracoomega> (I think the math actually works out such that it's not possible for any other size of creature, also) 14:47:03 <04dracoomega> The least that any other size can generate was 1 gold 14:47:21 <06pleasingfungus> funky 14:48:27 <04dracoomega> I actually didn't notice the existence of this bug until a few months ago, for some reason, and at the time had been paranoid it was apostle-related. I'd had so many item-related crashes when I was working on it locally that I was fairly reassured to realize it wasn't. Somehow never noticed it was a Gozag thing until today. 14:48:54 <04dracoomega> But it looks like this should be a very old bug, so I guess it just didn't attract my attention until that point I spent a bit of time worrying it was my fault? ^^; 14:49:50 <06pleasingfungus> it’s been triggering for many years ago 14:50:00 <06pleasingfungus> i looked at it, iirc advil? looked at it 14:50:23 <06pleasingfungus> just didn’t get to the bottom of it, and it never seemed urgent 14:51:00 another for the list of weird rare niche crashes alongside eleionoma wand shopping list crash and hep ancestor abyss crash 14:52:34 <04dracoomega> I sure am glad this wasn't anything like the nightmare those were >.> 14:53:08 <04dracoomega> Yeah, the fortunate(?) thing is that the crash was triggering on exiting the level and not entering the new one, so the game never got stuck in an invalid state 14:53:38 <04dracoomega> At the start, I thought it was from entering a floor, and was confused how this couldn't be repeatable, if so 15:37:22 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-1030-g7194ef5473 (34) 22:35:45 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1030-g7194ef5473 (34) 22:59:15 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1030-g7194ef5473 23:13:10 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1030-g7194ef5473 (34) 23:55:48 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-1030-g7194ef5473