03:31:40 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5199-gb287095a7e 05:07:13 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-999-gfa1cc04 (34) 14:44:45 03Rytis Petronis02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3357 * 0.32-a0-1000-gdeac9ec169: Increase the number of inventory slots to 62. 10(4 hours ago, 9 files, 26+ 40-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/deac9ec16939 14:44:45 03Rytis Petronis02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3357 * 0.32-a0-1001-g0cc0da9518: Remove quick access digit inscription functionality 10(4 hours ago, 4 files, 1+ 64-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0cc0da9518c4 14:44:45 03Rytis Petronis02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3357 * 0.32-a0-1002-gd85ddc70b9: Handle save upgrading with a minor tag 10(4 hours ago, 3 files, 15+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d85ddc70b970 14:44:45 03Rytis Petronis02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3357 * 0.32-a0-1003-g659af3cdec: Use the ENDOFPACK and ENDOFLETTERS instead of magic numbers 10(3 hours ago, 15 files, 38+ 37-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/659af3cdec8d 14:44:45 03Rytis Petronis02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3357 * 0.32-a0-1004-g160d98b6c4: Add index_to_alphanumeric and alphanumeric_to_index 10(3 hours ago, 15 files, 72+ 52-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/160d98b6c479 14:44:45 03Rytis Petronis02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3357 * 0.32-a0-1005-gfa9a16ecef: Handle jewellery_prompt = true and make text updates to match changes 10(5 minutes ago, 6 files, 51+ 40-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fa9a16ecef4b 15:12:22 <02sentei> I had some time again, so I updated the 62 inventory slot pr to handle octopode jewellery prompt edge case and to be mergable into master again. I also hosted it on my fork server http://xom.montres.org.uk:8080/#lobby select the TestCrawl version 15:18:36 <06pleasingfungus> thank you! 15:37:19 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-999-gfa1cc04b1d (34) 16:18:17 <06mumra> Honestly ... that extra 10 slots sounds so handy 16:19:21 <06mumra> But in practice I know I would just fill up those 10 slots and then be annoyed at the 62 limit anyway 😂 16:21:14 <06mumra> I think really any limit is arbitrary and I wonder if the best solution is some kind of "bag of holding" where you have a stash you can move things to/from at any time but it takes like 1000 aut 16:23:28 <06mumra> Which is no different in practice than having some stash(es) somewhere in the dungeon and you have to spend a bunch of turns going back there and getting things but the UX is more straightforward 16:25:58 <06mumra> and if you're optimising for turn count you'll avoid it but do occasional big dumps/swaps but most players would probably just use it when they run out of inv 16:28:38 <06mumra> And it's no good for things you need right now but it avoids the kind of "I am really fond of this artifact that carried me through the game but now I have to leave it behind even though I might want to requip it one day depending on circumstances but right now I'd rather pick up this ring that I'm much more likely to want to equip some time in the reasonably near future" 16:30:48 <06mumra> I don't know if anyone here is familiar with Spout Lore? Kind of like the fanny pack they carry around ... it's like an entire extra dimensional mansion but on the outside it's just a tent carried around as a fanny pack 16:31:33 <06mumra> So setting it up is non-trivial and you wouldn't even do it with enemies around because then they've discovered your secret 16:34:52 <06mumra> But you can easily just stash anything you want there if you have time (the RPG rules they're playing specifically allow infinite inventory for characters regardless, so it doesn't even matter there (and I don't think it'd create any problem in crawl) 16:37:29 <06mumra> My only other immediate thought on the subject: why was the number 62 specifically gone for? Might it be better on a numerological level to have 64 slots? 16:39:24 <06dolorous_84348> I'm guessing 62 because the slots are labeled A-Z, a-z, and 0-9, for a total of 62. 64 might be good numerically, but what characters would you use for the last two slots? 16:41:29 <06mumra> ahh 16:43:33 <06mumra> i dunno i thought it was arbitrarily "add 10 more slots" but that obviously makes sense 😂 16:43:42 <06pleasingfungus> various forks have added bags of holding. i do not hear good things about the ui 16:43:53 <06pleasingfungus> i don't think they added the very long delay you suggest 16:44:26 <06pleasingfungus> it's unclear to me that deciding which items should go in your bag of holding vs which should go in your inventory is meaningfully different from status quo. as you say yourself, it's very similar to stashing in the dungeon 16:45:02 <06pleasingfungus> the annoying part of crawl's limited inventory isn't going to your stash to get stuff, it's managing which things are in your inventory and which you need to drop 16:45:44 <06mumra> In my games at least, the annoying part isn't "which items do I need to have handy at any given moment" 16:46:27 <06mumra> It's very rare that there are more than 52 items that are really relevant for a turn-to-turn situation 16:46:28 <06pleasingfungus> it seems plausible to me that adding another 10 slots would be helpful, at least for me. i can usually keep a few slots free at present to minimize inventory pain, so i can believe that adding more would forestall inventory juggling for quite a while 16:46:37 <06pleasingfungus> really? i don't think that's particularly rare 16:46:43 <06pleasingfungus> !log . won 16:46:45 <04Cerebot> 52. PleasingFungus, XL27 MeSh, T:24085: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/PleasingFungus/morgue-PleasingFungus-20230722-204327.txt 16:47:05 <06mumra> `Normally it's items that i think i might be going to need but i actually never needf 16:47:08 <06pleasingfungus> !log . zot 16:47:10 <04Cerebot> 5. PleasingFungus, XL24 DrCA, T:89237: https://crawl.kelbi.org/crawl/morgue/PleasingFungus/morgue-PleasingFungus-20231209-010348.txt 16:47:36 <06pleasingfungus> i think i used pretty much everything here? idk that there was a ton of fat. maybe wand of flame 16:48:11 <06mumra> I don't disagree that a few extra buffer slots wouldn't be really handy in every game 16:49:57 <06mumra> Ok so questions .. 16:50:18 From the "inventory pressure is good" end - I bring items with me I never used, but I could envisage situations where I would have used them, so I don't regret bringing them 16:50:22 <06mumra> You have four magical staves there, do you swap between them situationally? 16:51:09 <06pleasingfungus> yes 16:51:12 <06pleasingfungus> i was swapping nonstop 16:51:16 <06pleasingfungus> it was a huge pain 😛 16:51:48 <06mumra> It's good to have "item that I hardly ever have but I'm really pleased I had with me on that one specific occasion" 16:51:53 To cover resist, or for the enhancer? 16:52:09 <06mumra> i mean, that indicates a different problem 🙂 16:52:47 (but wait, me, didn't you recently obviate the need to carry potions of mutation and feel great every time you drop the damn things? err yes) 16:52:52 <06pleasingfungus> pinkbeast: staff of poison was for resists, the others were for enhancers, iirc 16:53:25 <06pleasingfungus> mumra: talk to elliptic or hellmonk about their unplans for fast weapon swapping sometime 😛 16:53:36 <06mumra> i was also going to ask about i - a ring of resist corrosion How many times do you swap on rCorr unless you're doing something like going to Slime where a long-term-planning 1000aut penalty is acceptable? 16:53:50 <06pleasingfungus> whenever i see a lich 16:54:07 <06pleasingfungus> (ancient lich, specifically, iirc) 16:54:16 <06pleasingfungus> i was on zot:5, so there were a few of those around 16:56:08 <06mumra> In the current form of corrosion i don't worry about it anything like as much as i used to 16:56:13 <06mumra> which is kind of a shame 17:05:06 <06mumra> maybe the problem here is: wanting to swap equipment in and out for what should be marginal resists but by now you should have found the right piece of gear to not have to worry about that 17:06:57 <06mumra> what i'm wondering about is some extra mechanic of gaining permaent resists 17:07:55 <06mumra> e.g. a shop where you can buy a permanent rCorr but it's like 3000 gold 17:09:58 <06mumra> in a lot of my games i end up carrying around stuff like this but i never end up actually using it in a situation where it might matter 17:11:32 the only time I manage to think of using a resist item is when I don't have it… 17:14:27 <09hellmonk> intrinsic resists + unswappable equipment could be kinda pog tbh 17:14:43 <09hellmonk> idk if spend lotsa money is the best system for that though 17:16:49 <06mumra> @dracoomega Latest itserations on Ungoldify. Tried it at level 5, I'm having a really hard time with the level of this spell tbh. 5 seems too early: gold matters at this stage but there are so many other spells competing at this level and there are probably specific things in shops you want to spend money on too. A spell that costs gold has to be late-game when you possibly don't care about gold any more (but maybe there are still things 17:16:50 you want to buy). Additionally the Silver damage theme is only really relevant late or extended. So I feel it has to be level 7+. If a 2nd school was to be added Earth would make most sense when we're transmuting metals but obviously we have Seismic Cannonade already lvl 7 earth/alchemy as well as the fact that a direct damage spell just feels earth-like regardless. 17:20:00 <06mumra> I started thinking what about money plus other permanent resources e.g. stats or XP .. but then it's also starting to sound like a deity idea 17:26:36 sounds like an evil deal between gozag and ru 17:31:31 <06mumra> exactly 17:38:57 <02Monkooky> I'm not sure if I expressed my doubts about this before, but I really don't think a gold cost per use is a good idea without serious restrictions 17:55:03 there are also other things that would need to be worked out, such as interactions with Zin and Gozag 18:00:33 <02Monkooky> I feel like it's fundamentally unviable, edge cases aside 18:01:28 <02Monkooky> The amount of gold you get in a game, and when you get it, has incredible variance and a wack curve 18:05:19 <02Monkooky> Aiming the spell at 'late-game when you possibly don't care about gold anymore' means either the gold cost is flavour text, or some games you get 20x the casts available as other games 18:05:42 ^this 18:17:10 <06dolorous_84348> Flavor-wise, at least, there might be interactions with Beogh as well. The Orcish Mines has a lot of gold, which you could use to power this spell and magically slaughter all the orcs living there. I don't think Beogh would approve of that. 18:18:09 <06dolorous_84348> Especially given the new flavor of the orcs fleeing from the surface to the mines for their own survival. 18:33:18 03Monkooky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3775 * 0.32-a0-895-g34a7a95e8b: Grant rCorr when casting GE 10(3 days ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/34a7a95e8b1e 18:33:18 03Monkooky02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3775 * 0.32-a0-896-ge27bf71818: Describe gastronomic expanse 10(56 seconds ago, 2 files, 9+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e27bf7181896 19:33:31 <02Monkooky> Should gastronomic expanse be reduced by AC 19:47:38 <06pleasingfungus> i would hope so 19:58:50 <09hellmonk> if the ungoldify targeting seems interesting I wonder about just making it straight up a fire spell or whatever 19:59:38 <09hellmonk> directional turbo laser 20:47:33 <02Monkooky> adding to my backlog of projects to not get around to: refactor mons_adjust_flavoured so it takes a flavour instead of an entire beam 20:47:57 <02Monkooky> (this is nontrivial because a small number of cases do care about bits of the beam besides the flavour) 21:04:12 <04dracoomega> Whatever anyone's misgivings about a gold cost on a fundamental level, I think the statement a spell that costs gold has to be late-game when you possibly don't care about gold any more is backwards. Like, if the idea is that it shouldn't matter, then it actually shouldn't matter (ie: shouldn't be part of the spell). And if it is a part of the spell, then it should matter. (This is part of why I thought ~5 might be better, 21:04:13 because the gold cost might actually be relevant at the time and you can 'grow out' of the spell, such that the total number of casts you could get over the whole run doesn't matter because it's no longer a bread-and-butter spell. You don't have to be sad about running out of ammo because now you have 'some other high-level spell' that you graduated into) 21:06:53 <04dracoomega> (As for gold costs on my own stuff, I'd been considering trying it out on an evoker. A 'sellsword's coinpurse' that summons a well-equipped ally for an entire floor's duration - as a slight tip of the hat to long-gone mercenary card. I thought that by making it something you are able to use much, much less often (by being an xp-recharge item), a gold cost could maybe make mechanical sense while being a little cute?) 21:07:00 <04dracoomega> I don't know if Monkooky would have similar objections here or not (and I've certainly not gotten to working on it yet) 21:11:12 <02Monkooky> I think an earlier targetted spell runs into different, but more severe problems. Before gold loses value as purchasing power, before you've seen all the shops you're going to see and bought everything worth buying, you need the spell to be noticeably stronger than the competitors to justify that kind of permanent strategic cost. Which means +-1 early scroll of acq is extremely distortive, especially pre-orc 21:13:50 <02Monkooky> If it summons a dancing sword I'm on board (I have misgivings but only on principle for the moment- no concrete objection) 21:14:55 <04dracoomega> That's a very cute pun (though I'd originally intended something along the lines of mercenary card - weapon-using humanoids with unusually good gear) 21:15:14 <04dracoomega> Unlimited duration until you leave the floor you're on (like any other summon) 21:15:14 <06regret-⸸nde※> Dancing weapon summon eats into Nemelex, alas. 21:16:26 <02Monkooky> (this was my take on a similar idea, but I listed it as a bad artefact idea for a reason) 21:16:42 <06pleasingfungus> lol monkooky 21:18:19 <06pleasingfungus> as creator of the god of Bring Back Mercenary Card, i feel obligated to support this 21:19:15 <04dracoomega> An early ?acq would probably be 'distortive' here, sure, but I'm not convinced it's inherently a bad thing if a spell operating on a different vector than normal did make some decisions have different answers than they usually do? Like, sure, it's true that an ?acq you want to take gold from lets you have a brief period of a lot more liberal ammo than another character with access to the spell, but is that a bad thing? 21:20:18 <04dracoomega> I am not saying I am sure that such a spell is overall a good thing, but I don't think "On some runs the spell is a lot better than other runs, due to gold availability". I mean, if that wasn't true, what's even the point? 21:22:28 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Intrinsic resists and unswappable equipment feels like it already eats into the inherent systems already reflecting such in Demonspawn facets / Draconian colours / Coglin gizmos / Xom and Jiyva mutation gifts in general. In terms of late-game gold sinks, I've mentioned repeatedly I'd like to convert crypt_loot_plus() into something in the spirit of nicolae_hell_entry_big_baal_hell working as reasonably well as it does. A 21:22:29 guaranteed shop in Crypt:3 (that costs more) using the custom theme loot the branch already has helps out the late optional branch with less rewards and less weaknesses than Elf, and also make it much more forward-facing for the unspoiled how likely it is to get Necronomicon spells / a death talisman / regen amulet randarts and rN++ ring randarts in Crypt:3. Aside from my waning energy for crawl development these days, I kind of planned to ask nicolae- 21:22:29 for some assistance in managing all the shop syntax details, though, and he's clearly been rather distracted with other projects for most of 0.32.) 21:27:21 <02Monkooky> well, yes, I agree if that's not true there's no point, but I don't think it being true is good either; hence feeling like the concept is generally non-viable. 21:28:14 <04dracoomega> I suppose I would say "I am extremely uncertain whether the dynamic would end up feeling good or not" but not to the point of rejecting it outright before actually trying it to see how it feels in practice, I suppose? 21:28:22 <02Monkooky> like, ok the downside means that this spell is fundamentally relegated to not being your main damage, and instead being a special occasion treat for big scary things 21:29:03 <02Monkooky> yeah I'm not even touching on the feelsbad of spending gold, which would definitely be a thing but is not possible to really reason about 21:30:01 <06regret-⸸nde※> A meaningfully-expensive option using gold for non-shop / Gozag purposes being different per game doesn't feel much more different than games already varying heavily in strategy from floor drops already, though I would be inclined to agree on it mostly being more interesting and viable on non-spell fronts because spells themselves already have a lot of narrow uncontrolled vectors of usability between games (apts, drop rate, 21:30:01 whether or not one just finds something else better). Crawl spells, for better or worse, have been pretty narrowed down into "mostly negligible and anticipatable downside" with most of the newer spells. 21:30:29 <06regret-⸸nde※> "being a special occasion treat for big scary things" already sort of covers how XP-recharging evokers currently work, after all... 21:31:17 <02Monkooky> the way I'm looking at 'gold costed spell' is that it basically amounts to a wand that you can acquire a large pile of charges for 21:36:47 <04dracoomega> Except using/requiring a bunch of magic skills, of course. But I think that way of thinking about it is not entirely wrong? 23:45:49 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-999-gfa1cc04b1d