03:31:41 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5199-gb287095a7e 04:36:04 <06mumra> I know you mentioned wanting to use blinding on one or two monsters -- I'm just fixing up that branch slightly (basically separating out the to-hit improvments and the webtiles screen flash fixes into separate commits so it's a bit easier to sanity check) but it's pretty much ready to use if you need it 05:21:00 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-986-ga09f62f (34) 06:17:55 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-987-gd922fe92ef: Properly apostrophise rimeblight message. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d922fe92ef0a 07:27:08 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-988-gd927fbf5ee: Add another colour for Blork's dialogue. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d927fbf5ee0a 08:25:31 <04dracoomega> It probably should be, honestly. Like, I considered whether it's more interesting for it to actually be an aura that makes you want to prioritize the high priest first, but even if it were, I don't think it would change up target priority dynamically, really. So I think I will just simplify it into a one-time AoE buff spell (and maybe reuse it as a newly-refactored aura-style effect on something else in a completely different 08:25:31 context) 08:29:47 <02Monkooky> Had a thought for gastronomic expanse- instead of requiring the player present to grow, it grows with anything present 08:30:51 <02Monkooky> this is mostly because it feels more natural to flavour that way- "the transposed region grows as long as it contains something to digest" 08:31:10 <02Monkooky> not sure if that makes it less interesting to play though 08:36:09 <04dracoomega> I mean, I can't talk to how it currently plays (as I haven't gotten to trying it myself yet) but if some of the intent is for the double-edged nature of maintaining it, that seems likely to be lost if you want here to try to park yourself just outside it while fighting something that is inside it? (Mind you, asking the player to take stacking self-corrosion to maintain the spell may be a tall ask; really depends on the damage 08:36:10 output and the rate of self-debuff and all) 09:30:17 <04dracoomega> @gammafunk CDI trunk seems to be more than a week out of date. Is the auto-update not working properly? 09:30:31 <04dracoomega> At least according to lightli 09:36:01 <04dracoomega> Unrelated: thinking about the mons_is_object restructuring I mentioned the other day, I have wondered whether it makes sense to split nonliving holiness into 'object' and 'some other thing that isn't biological [name pending]' and have the former subsume all of mons_is_object. Have them not care about being attacked, have the gods not care about attacking them, etc. Nonliving covers a lot of things of different degrees of sapience at 09:36:01 the moment, and it would be more internally consistent and arguably clearer (even if I am a bit hesitant on adding a new holiness type) Alternatively, we could make brainless intelligence more clearly 'Is definitely not sentient in any way' and have that behavior apply to all brainless things and then increase the intelligence of things which are currently listed brainless (but definitely alive) to something else. Maybe it's fine if jellies and eyes 09:36:02 are just 'animal' intelligence instead of inserting some 'primative' or 'instrinctual' level immediately below animal. What even is the practical difference between brainless and animal at the moment anyway, besidese the former having very slightly worse pathfinding? 09:40:01 <06dolorous_84348> If the only difference between brainless and animal intelligence really is only slightly worse pathfinding, the second option sounds better to me. 09:40:54 <04dracoomega> I'd have to survey the code to be sure 09:41:03 <04dracoomega> I suspect there's some other minor effects 09:42:37 <04dracoomega> (I mean, to be honest, it's not clear that golems ought to be bad at pathfinding either :P) 09:43:01 <04dracoomega> There's a bit of a difference between 'no internal cognition' and 'bad at executing pre-programmed instructions' 09:43:29 <04dracoomega> Guidance systems are bad at appreciating music, but still very good at reaching a target location, for instance 09:43:44 <06dolorous_84348> Indeed. Or if the golem's instructions weren't that good. 09:44:15 <06dolorous_84348> "The problem with computers...err, golems is that they do exactly what you tell them." 10:04:57 The computer is an idiot they do exactly what you told them, often to our own demise (see sci fi apocalypse issues) 10:08:19 <06pleasingfungus> hellmonk has an old post about the effects of intelligence. there are a large number of small effects iirc 10:09:46 <06pleasingfungus> draco: unclear to me that conflating holiness and intelligence would be helpful? 10:11:25 <04dracoomega> Well, it's more like mons_is_object, which affects penance and reactivity and a few other things, is very specifically about 'would we consider this a mindless object', and is somewhat inconsistent with several other things (and hidden!). And it seems potentially good to unify all these behaviors under something that is displayed as something more than intuition and is explicit about 'this is just an object' or whatever 10:12:23 <04dracoomega> Nonliving is currently sort of a catchall between things that are definitely objects, things that are weird hard-to-classify eldritch stuff, things that are clearly sapient in one form or another (eg: gargoyles, player djinn), whatever elementals are... 10:19:51 <06pleasingfungus> sure, a split of nonliving in some way has been floated for a while; i'm vaguely fond of the idea of splitting 'constructs' and 'eldritch/magic' creatures apart 10:20:08 <06pleasingfungus> but unclear to me that such a split could or should map neatly onto this is_object concept 10:20:24 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-989-gd272cc43a0: Fix corpse naming of the mad acolyte of Lugonu. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d272cc43a007 10:20:24 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-990-g1f0809d323: Fix now-inaccurate comment. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1f0809d32369 10:21:37 <04dracoomega> Well, if such a split did happen, isn't it likely that the 'constructs' one ends up with them all being objects? 10:22:12 <04dracoomega> Currently servitors are the only golems that count for this, but it's not clear to me that we couldn't extend this to the rest of them 10:22:52 <04dracoomega> (A very, very marginal buff to ?summoning) 10:25:15 <06dolorous_84348> Thanks for the info. 10:27:04 <04dracoomega> Oh, is there a link to that somewhere? I have been going through the code to compile my own since I mentioned it >.> 10:28:19 <06pleasingfungus> draco: hm, i guess i don’t understand what is meant by is object in that case. are you saying it would include gargoyles? 10:28:41 <06pleasingfungus> i’ve been looking 10:29:02 would it? ISTR player gargs at least are described as "living stone" 10:29:23 (and were originally named Grotesk because of the differences from monster gargs) 10:29:29 <04dracoomega> It currently does not, and I wouldn't want to extend it to that. The behavior in question currently is largely "Do good gods get upset with you for hurting an ally of this type" and partially (but not entirely) overlaps with "Monster gets upset with you when you hit it". (And I thought I'd try to combine the two, since they're almost the same) 10:29:39 <06dolorous_84348> As are players in statue form. 10:29:47 <04dracoomega> The idea being "This is definitely not a sapient being of any sort" 10:30:16 <04dracoomega> mons_is_object currently contains all of mons_is_conjured but then a handful of other non-living things too, in an individual list 10:30:31 <04dracoomega> Like lightning spires 10:30:46 <04dracoomega> So that Ely doesn't get sad about their well-being 10:31:09 <04dracoomega> But a gargoyle is a person, no matter how you slice it 10:31:10 <06pleasingfungus> and gozag doesn't incite them..? 10:31:22 <04dracoomega> Yeah 10:31:42 <06pleasingfungus> ely doesn't heal, tso doesn't bless, mayhem doesn't 'hem 10:31:53 <04dracoomega> Yeah, I made a list of the specific effects a little while ago here 10:31:54 <06pleasingfungus> i'm skeptical whether this category should exist. 10:32:08 <04dracoomega> For most of that, probably not, no 10:32:18 <04dracoomega> I was going to take a few things out. The penance part still matters, though. 10:32:37 <04dracoomega> (I think it's kind of dumb and needless that Makhleb doesn't let you heal on dancing weapon kills, for instance) 10:32:45 <06pleasingfungus> sure 10:32:58 <04dracoomega> (I just kind of wanted to simplify / streamline a number of things I brought up that day) 10:35:17 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.32-a0-991-g7117bd966e: Fix a silly use of mon_is_object 10(25 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7117bd966ef3 10:36:10 <06pleasingfungus> it feels very odd to me that we'd define an entire new holiness for a specific god's piety checks..? 10:37:20 <04dracoomega> I mean, arguably 'plant' mostly matters for a single god thing, too 10:38:36 <04dracoomega> (But I had been thinking to consistently fold this into 'will get mad if you hit it', too. And it's something we list clearly when examining stuff.) 10:38:56 <04dracoomega> (But at the same time, zombies are definitely not objects and should also still not get mad, so there's an argument for mindlessness being the main part there entirely) 10:39:00 <04dracoomega> Hence the other thing I mentioned 10:52:38 <06pleasingfungus> true, bur think there’s a difference between ‘a penance corner case’ and ‘a god’s core gimmick’ :p 10:56:22 <06pleasingfungus> i agree that playing with intelligence is more promising 10:57:01 <06pleasingfungus> not sure if the best route is upgrading many brainless mons to animal, or re-splitting brainless into two levels 10:57:04 <06pleasingfungus> as in times of old 10:59:37 <04dracoomega> Current consequences of being brainless/animal (there are more effects of being human, but nobody's suggesting anything end up there): -Condemnation/anguish/mindburst don't work on brainless monsters -Only brainless monsters will enter rainclouds above shallow water (...because they think they could drown) -Brainless monsters are less likely to avoid most clouds in general -Brainless monsters won't avoid slime/icy walls 10:59:37 -Brainless monsters won't step aside to let other allies move in alongside them -Less intelligent monsters forget the player more quickly -Brainless monsters won't retreat from ranged attacks when unable to reach their target -Brainless monsters have somewhat complicatedly bad behavior for patrolling a given point -Less intelligent monsters have a shorter pathfinding distance -Brainless monstes (EXCEPT JELLIES) cannot push other monsters out of the way 10:59:38 -Brainless non-living monsters cannot be berserked -Brainless monsters cannot be pacified -Living animal intelligence count as 'beasts' (except for non-swamp dragons, ugly things, ice beasts, sky beasts or butterflies >.>). Currently used only to determine eligible targets for Druid's Call and druid's death buff. 10:59:55 <06pleasingfungus> good ol plant vs insect int… 11:00:51 <06pleasingfungus> lol re beasts 11:01:02 <04dracoomega> That one is apparently entirely my fault 11:01:12 <06pleasingfungus> think i’d seen it once before but it’s very funny 11:01:18 <04dracoomega> Even though when I read it this time, I immediately turned to Index and was like "Guess what's not a beast" 11:01:32 <04dracoomega> "Nobody knows what an ice beast is actually supposed to be" 11:01:36 <06pleasingfungus> a few of those things seem goodish to preserve 11:02:05 <04dracoomega> Yeah, it mostly doesn't seem unreasonable (with a few exceptions like the raincloud thing :P) 11:02:23 <06pleasingfungus> anguish, not stepping aside, not pushing all seem vaguely relevant 11:02:55 <04dracoomega> Looking back at old commits, the first version of druids didn't consider swamp dragons eligable at all, then it was changed not long after to include them and the comment specifically said that I was leaving fire/ice dragons out, even though they spawn in Swamp, since I worried calling them would be too good. Not convinced I feel that way now, though. 11:03:04 <06dolorous_84348> Incidentally, ugly things' odd status is that originally gave me the idea to turn them into the color-shifting, radiation-absorbing mutant horrors they've been for awhile. (They have animal intelligence, but can open doors? Obviously, they used to be more intelligent, until something horrible happened to them...) 11:03:35 <04dracoomega> I am honestly not sure that golems not pushing past things is mechanically ideal or intuitive 11:03:51 <04dracoomega> I wouldn't have expected it, anyway (and they're often good frontline things) 11:05:04 <04dracoomega> Being heedless of bad terrain feels fairly relevant and intuitive of current behaviors, to me anyway 11:06:57 <04dracoomega> Brainless non-living monsters cannot be berserked Although the code clearly was doing specifically this, I thought that non-living things couldn't berserk period anyway 11:07:35 <06dolorous_84348> So did I. 11:08:04 <04dracoomega> Oh, they can get frenzied but not berserk 11:08:24 <04dracoomega> Maybe? 11:10:29 <09hellmonk> rename to Ice Mr Beast 11:10:41 <09hellmonk> they banish you to squid game 11:15:56 <04dracoomega> Okay, so Discord does work on monster gargoyles (even though they cannot berserk), but still the stipulation up there never seems to matter as there is not a single non-living brainless monster that doesn't also have infinite will 11:16:37 <04dracoomega> So they'd already be immune to Discord for other reasons. (Is there any other way to frenzy a nonliving thing?) 11:17:00 <06dolorous_84348> Orb of mayhem? 11:17:47 that fails to surprise me, arguably if they're not smart enough to e.g. avoid bad terrain, they're also not smart enough to need willpower for resists 11:19:26 needles? 11:20:29 sorry, darts 11:20:39 losing track of which one is still around 😛 11:20:45 atropa, in particular 11:21:11 oh, guess it doesn't frenzy at this point 11:21:22 <04dracoomega> Well, needles don't work on nonliving or undead at all 11:21:24 <04dracoomega> Which Discord does 11:22:08 <04dracoomega> But yes, I guess orb of mayhem seems to work in this scenario and would frenzy brainless nonlivings if not for this 11:32:21 <04dracoomega> I feel like minor improvements to pathfinding and such isn't that relevant a buff of moving jellies/eyes into animal, but what does feel like it matters most here is actually Ely. Because it not only means that pacification can easily eliminate eyes from behind things, but also that they can basically just clear out Slime nearly as straightforwardly as they can do Lair, and I... kind of don't think I want that? 11:34:33 pretty sure the only way you're supposed to be able to get through Slime for free is to worship Jiyva 11:35:52 <04dracoomega> I don't think I really like golems not being able to push to the front of things, but if that clause was eliminated, then zombies would also push to the front of things, too, right, which feels somehow less good? I wonder if this is because it feels like there's sort of two only partially-overlapping intuitive concepts of 'brainless' in my head. There's 'no independent thought' versus 'only partially capable of even understanding 11:35:52 instructions' and I'd expect golems to be perfectly competent at the thing they were made to do even if there's no independent thought. Hmmm... 12:36:03 <06pleasingfungus> > -Only brainless monsters will enter rainclouds above shallow water (...because they think they could drown) wait, they can! i am actually shocked we haven't removed that 12:36:22 <06pleasingfungus> also this logic is deranged 12:36:22 <04dracoomega> Wait, what? I thought rain clouds didn't deeper water for ages now? 12:36:30 <06pleasingfungus> cpp if (env.grid(pos) == DNGN_FLOOR) feat = DNGN_SHALLOW_WATER; else if (env.grid(pos) == DNGN_SHALLOW_WATER && you.pos() != pos && one_chance_in(3) && !crawl_state.game_is_sprint()) { // Don't drown the player! feat = DNGN_DEEP_WATER; } 12:37:27 <06pleasingfungus> %git 57db23c628d 12:37:27 <04Cerebot> kate- * 0.12-a0-2702-g57db23c628: Don't let rain create deep water in Sprint (11 years ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/57db23c628d7 12:37:29 <06pleasingfungus> rather confused by this one tbh 12:37:55 <06pleasingfungus> oh, it was a permanent change then 12:38:04 <04dracoomega> I mean, I haven't seen rain clouds make water in ages 12:38:13 <04dracoomega> Is there something else involved in this? 12:38:14 <06pleasingfungus> how often have you seen rain clouds? 12:38:22 <06pleasingfungus> what even makes rain clouds these days? 12:38:35 <04dracoomega> Sky beasts still do 12:38:42 <06pleasingfungus> yeah, and they're almost it 12:39:29 <04dracoomega> Oh, huh, I did manage to get it to do it in wizmode then 12:39:34 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.32-a0-992-ga3b3661b09: Allow rain to create deep water in sprint 10(33 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a3b3661b097b 12:39:47 <04dracoomega> I truly thought that was gone 12:40:08 <04dracoomega> (I mean, the deep water part sounds basically impossible) 12:40:42 <04dracoomega> A 1 in 15 chance per cloud from a sky beast if they're somehow already over shallow water, which is also almost never 12:41:38 Fuck's sake github don't make me verify 2FA to view a commit, I can just do it in porn mode 12:41:56 <06pleasingfungus> lol 12:42:13 <06pleasingfungus> anyway i'm fine with cutting this 12:42:21 <04dracoomega> It's certainly never asked me to do that. ...okay, it's never asked for 2FA from me in any case, on reflection 12:42:24 <06pleasingfungus> might do so now 12:42:29 <06pleasingfungus> oh, you should set up 2FA on your gh. 12:42:33 <06pleasingfungus> and everywhere else. 12:42:56 <04dracoomega> (I mean, not counting repo access, which is via token) 12:44:22 <06pleasingfungus> extra bonus of removing this is that i get to immediately revert my previous commit 12:45:54 04Build failed for 08master @ a3b3661b 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/8775064041 12:46:12 <06pleasingfungus> i'm sorry, what 12:46:32 <06dolorous_84348> One too many right parentheses. 12:46:39 <03semi_tonal> load-bearing 11 year old commit 12:49:10 <04dracoomega> The fact that player and monster enchantments are basically entirely unrelated data structures is making trying to unify monster enchantment aura monsters kind of pesky. (Most existing and planned stuff is just monster-to-monster, but torpor snails affect both players and monsters, and at least one other thing on the big list would also affect a player) 12:49:26 <06pleasingfungus> but... it compiled... 12:49:29 <06pleasingfungus> well, whatever 12:49:59 <06dolorous_84348> Odd; it didn't on mine. 12:50:09 <06pleasingfungus> maybe i only imagined it compiled. 12:50:12 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.32-a0-993-g5bea24bcb7: Don't allow rain to create deep water anywhere 10(3 minutes ago, 2 files, 10+ 43-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5bea24bcb774 12:50:13 <04dracoomega> Not only is there no direct mapping between enums of one type to the other, player enchantments don't have agents 12:50:20 <06pleasingfungus> seems like the most plausible explanation (sincere) 12:51:57 <09hellmonk> ruining my upcoming spell design eringya's sudden rainstorm 12:51:57 <04dracoomega> The irony of "It would be better to unify these effects rather than adding yet another one ad hoc" when I would certainly already have finished doing the latter, and yet am still trying to determine how to even do the former 12:54:28 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-994-gabb26cbae4: Fix spelling. 10(80 seconds ago, 4 files, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/abb26cbae42c 13:07:11 <06dolorous_84348> Happens. 15:09:49 <06pleasingfungus> crawl trivia: in console, wall_wax is almost always coloured yellow. what's the exception? 15:19:56 <12ge0ff> when it's lit by a halo? 15:20:11 <06pleasingfungus> huh 15:20:15 <06pleasingfungus> possible, but not what i meant 15:20:44 <06pleasingfungus> answer key: when it's one of ||lemuel's hornet hive vaults||, which are brown instead 15:37:44 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-994-gabb26cbae4 (34) 16:11:29 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-995-gb4a59205af: Fix Hurl Torchlight description. 10(79 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b4a59205afeb 17:01:30 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-984-gbf77b23558: Make flashes consistent in webtiles 10(13 hours ago, 5 files, 19+ 56-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bf77b2355861 17:01:30 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-985-g2e64a6a426: Add an alpha channel to screen flashes 10(13 hours ago, 6 files, 23+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2e64a6a42679 17:01:30 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-986-g07851962c7: Make "to-hit" display more accurate and consistent 10(4 hours ago, 11 files, 126+ 46-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/07851962c767 17:01:30 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-987-g70e69fb6cc: Blindness: new player status 10(45 minutes ago, 13 files, 104+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/70e69fb6cc62 17:01:30 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-988-ge36ef3179c: Add visual effect for blindness 10(52 minutes ago, 1 file, 17+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e36ef3179c93 17:01:30 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-989-g221cec145c: Add blinding to possible chaos effects 10(49 minutes ago, 2 files, 14+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/221cec145c76 17:01:30 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-990-gaeb3fa2083: Add blinding to klown pie effects 10(9 minutes ago, 4 files, 26+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aeb3fa2083a0 17:01:30 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-991-g87a1ccc4ea: Use blindness for Zin wrath 10(25 minutes ago, 2 files, 7+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/87a1ccc4ea3e 17:01:30 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3746 * 0.32-a0-992-gab4a6119a1: Gozag wrath can distract players 10(22 minutes ago, 2 files, 13+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ab4a6119a15f 17:06:51 <06mumra> This is a cleaned up version of the player blindness branch, and I've separated it out into a bunch of commits so things can be easily reverted/cherry picked if not everything is wanted 17:11:10 <06mumra> I feel this is pretty mergable now, please let me know any feedback (particularly could do with a look over the to hit changes in https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/07851962c767 and the blindness algorithm itself in https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/70e69fb6cc62 ) 20:54:47 <04dracoomega> I've been a bit scattered in different directions recently, but promise I'll take a look at that myself in the near future 20:56:19 <04dracoomega> (As for my present work, does the maxduration member of mon_enchant do anything? I wasn't aware it existed now, and looking at the few places it is referred to, it's unclear it has any functionality?) 20:56:59 <04dracoomega> Oh, it has to do with degree decay, I guess 20:57:31 <04dracoomega> I wonder how many enchantment still actually meaningfully use degree for anything, besides poison? 20:58:32 <04dracoomega> ENCH_SUMMON hides the source spell in degree, but doesn't decay that 20:59:21 <04dracoomega> Oh, I guess I used it for some Beogh vengeance marker tracking that I forgot about 21:00:40 <04dracoomega> Monster berserk is seemingly the only enchantment that ever manipulate maxduration manually, and I'm not sure it does anything there at all 22:35:19 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-995-gb4a59205af (34) 22:54:33 <04dracoomega> Trying to make a small new file to handle all this refactoring tidily seems to have gotten me stuck in include file hell 22:55:14 <04dracoomega> I have tried and failed to fix monster.h:45:27: error: ‘mon_enchant’ was not declared in this scope like 5 times now (with length compilation waits inbetween). I may be too tired now to deduce why ^^; 22:58:19 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-995-gb4a59205af 23:13:49 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-995-gb4a59205af (34) 23:55:32 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-995-gb4a59205af