03:31:19 <Lantell> Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5199-gb287095a7e
03:59:50 <Lantell> Tarkan (L1 DrEE) ASSERT(valid_cursor_pos(pos.x, pos.y, region)) in 'libutil.cc' at line 404 failed. (invalid cursor position -34,8 in region 2, should be 3,8 in region 3) (D:1)
04:51:05 <NormalPerson7> Something I've been wondering, I wanted to ask for an opinion
04:52:43 <NormalPerson7> Currently staves skill is a bit overpowered for wanderers, as quarterstaves are considered to be on the same level as falchions/short swords/hand axes etc, when they're a lot better quality than those other weapons. So you can start with a +2 or even a +3 quarterstaff, which is pretty insane.
04:53:45 <NormalPerson7> How about giving a random magical staff for the lower tier of staves skill instead? Magical staves are slightly worse than short swords in terms of their stats (higher delay, same damage, better accuracy), but obviously they have cool interactions with other skills
04:54:22 <NormalPerson7> (Could even try to match a magical staff to a given magic skill, but that might be a bit too good)
05:18:17 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-938-g40ac7a0 (34)
06:37:10 <Discord|> <06m​umra> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1229425287880638484/image.png?ex=662fa286&is=661d2d86&hm=8a55b8fb93b115d621a03d1d687c4babc87df987892f7e8ffead9aeadc415936&
06:37:27 <Discord|> <06m​umra> Just happened to spot an 18 year old (at least) bug in shopping.cc 😂
06:37:54 <GenTooMan> well seasoned bug huh?
06:37:58 <Discord|> <06m​umra> shop.keeper_name has THREE bytes, but the 2nd byte is reused by mistake
06:38:29 <Discord|> <06m​umra> so there are only 65k possible shopkeeper names, instead of 16m
06:40:56 <Discord|> <06m​umra> (also we can't simply fix it by changing the '1' to a '2' because it'd change all the names of shop keepers in existing games, cos the shopkeeper name is always generated on the fly from the seed and not actually stored anywhere)
06:45:25 <Discord|> <05i​coson> I'm not sure getting the shopkeepers name right is a high priority save compat issue
06:48:58 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> Indeed. And if it's not actually saved anywhere, is it really a save compatibility issue anyway?
06:49:18 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> (In other words, I'm on the side of fixing it.)
06:50:08 <meckryl> I'm trying to understand the description of fruit/meat caches to potentially make tiles for those. Just based on the name, I would assume they're like crates of food, but the description of commit 831329d makes me think that's maybe not the intention
06:58:52 <Discord|> <12g​e0ff> meckryl: have you seen the section about fruit/meat caches in the GitHub wiki? https://github.com/crawl/crawl/wiki/Decoration-type-spree-for-0.32#caches-of-fruit-caches-of-meat
06:59:17 <Discord|> <03w​heals> technically there are only 40k possible shopkeeper names, because for some incomprehensible reason each of those bytes is initalized to 1+random2(200)
06:59:53 <GenTooMan> hmm a cache could be anything really a crate  a hole in the wall a hole in the ground or a neat metal box labelled "FUD cache"
07:03:31 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> For full variety, I'm guessing they should be random2(256)?
07:04:10 <Discord|> <03w​heals> yeah
07:06:02 <Discord|> <03w​heals> or even better, just replace keeper_name with an int, use rng::get_uint32(), and allow 4B shopkeeper names
07:06:41 <Discord|> <03w​heals> (obviously this would require a little save compat code to load old shop_defs)
07:07:22 <Discord|> <06m​umra> Well the name is technically duplicated at least by Gozag code, so if you had an open gozag shopkeeper menu in your save file, the shopkeeper name would then change when you make your choice and the shop spawns
07:07:40 <Discord|> <06m​umra> And I don't know if the names are duplicated in stash code
07:08:53 <Discord|> <06m​umra> So I discovered this bug because I started having a go at a new shop name generation (using txt syntax instead of the extremely rudimentary current version)
07:10:00 <Discord|> <06m​umra> Current names are rather simple and never very memorable except for vault shops
07:10:40 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> Interesting.
07:10:51 <Discord|> <06m​umra> So I would end up fixing this as part of that (instead of storing the seed I would just store the generated name tbh, this seed code is ancient and I don't really see the point to save a few bytes on storing a string)
07:11:20 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> I've noted that Pan lord descriptions use seeds in a similar way.
07:12:03 <Discord|> <06m​umra> Yeah it's using the same name generation
07:12:03 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> But a lot more needs to be saved with them.
07:12:41 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> Since it ties into what adjectives they use for things, as well.
07:13:05 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> Which prevents putting such things into the database; I looked into that awhile back.
07:14:20 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> (At least not without a massive rewrite to accomplish it.)
07:15:07 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> But I suppose fixing shopkeeper name range would also fix their names as well?
07:16:22 <Discord|> <06m​umra> This particular fix wouldn't affect pan lords if that's what you're saying
07:17:27 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> Right. I meant the part about possibly using uint32 for the value for 4 bytes instead of 3.
07:19:21 <Discord|> <06m​umra> make_name already takes a uint32 and default param value is rng::get_uint32(), which is what pan lords are using
07:19:43 <Discord|> <06m​umra> (I can't see the same seed thing going on with pan lords in current code, so maybe this has already been fixed)
07:20:37 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> So it seems their names don't have the issue shopkeeper names do. Good to know.
07:39:24 <Discord|> <06m​umra> Right. So it seems 🙂 And shop names should def just do the same thing as them, generate a name on init and store as a string. So keeper_name can be dropped and just generate the name during save load for older saves.
07:40:12 <Discord|> <06m​umra> Gozag shops were already using the full uint32 range interestingly because they make the keeper name before the shop is actually created
07:43:26 <Discord|> <06m​umra> Fwiw the bug dates dates back to this commit https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1d0f57cbceb778139ca215cc4fcfd1584951f6dd
07:43:58 <Discord|> <06m​umra> So any further history is lost I think because it's a massive SVN merge into trunk 😫\
07:55:41 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> Yes, if it's back in the Subversion days, it's definitely ancient.
07:57:12 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> And Gozag shops using the newer method makes sense, because the Gozag code is newer than the old shop code. I remember when shops were stored outside normal map coordinates, as well.
07:59:29 <Discord|> <06m​umra> >  I remember when shops were stored outside normal map coordinates, as well.  Well that's a trick that even the likes of Bethesda still use in their latest game 😂
08:00:30 <Pinkbeast> Darn it, my record is 15 years
08:00:31 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> I suppose it's a classic, then 🙂
08:36:52 <Discord|> <05i​coson> we still use this trick a whole bunch (e.g. step from time)
08:39:30 <Discord|> <09g​ammafunk> yeah, we even still use this trick for shops
08:39:59 <Discord|> <09g​ammafunk> namely shop items have various weird storage coordinates in some cases, and monsters items I believe are stored outside of normal coordinates as well
08:47:01 <meckryl> Made a bunch of mini fruits, either I can arrange them into tiles once I have a better idea of how caches are supposed to look, or someone else can if they want https://tavern.dcss.io/t/tile-art-creation/706/8
08:48:37 <Discord|> <06m​umra> From the page you linked to, it sounds like the caches can be very varied and look like a variety of things, and tiles can be either picked randomly or vault specified
08:50:58 <Discord|> <06m​umra> Crates, barrels, trees, a table, a picnic basket, a refridgerator ...  (joking but actually that could be used as a joke in an Ozo vault or wizlab...)
08:54:10 <Discord|> <06m​umra> (Btw if you're relatively new to the game I don't know if you're aware of the history as the caches are also a nice nod to the fact that these foods were once individual items and a major mechanic in the game which was removed eventually because starving to death because you didn't find enough food wasn't actually that fun!)
08:54:47 <meckryl> One thing that kinda worries me is that the tiles should look like they can be walked over as specified. The current placeholders, which are literally just an assortment of fruit, definitely get that across; however, I'm not sure how to convey that a crate of fruit for example is a tile that can be freely walked over.
08:55:15 <meckryl> Also I've played on and off for long enough to remember what bread swinging is ahahaha
08:55:45 <meckryl> Well, I mostly used to just watch UV4's videos and wish I had the patience to really learn crawl myself, took me a long time to get started
08:58:10 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> There are other items with the same ambiguity. For example, tombstones are solid objects, but there are times I wonder if making them readable somehow would be interesting flavor, or there could be something similar to them like memorial plaques that you could read by walking over them.
09:01:14 <meckryl> I... didn't realize that dry fountains could be walked over until literally just now when I read the description of the cache tiles which says it. I guess I could see an argument that it shouldn't be a concern, but I'd still rather do my best to not contribute even more ambiguity
09:01:56 <Discord|> <06m​umra> That reminds me of a vault I never finished many years ago that had loads of randomly picked humourous tombstone epitaphs and zombies coming up out of the ground
09:03:13 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> I only know you can walk over fountains in general because I remember the days when you could drink out of them.
09:03:25 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> Sounds cool.
09:18:40 <GenTooMan> something like "here lies O'Really who lived the life of O'Reily whilst O'Reily was away."
09:24:33 <Discord|> <06m​umra> exactly
09:27:55 <Noisytoot> why was fountain drinking removed?
09:30:55 <GenTooMan> hmm that kind of place might be interesting to hide a treasure in, with a quasi random method of gaining it. IE you have to read the tombstones in order to get a key to a stone chest for example. The order is randomized based on a randomized clue for example. This way posting a "solution" for everyone would be difficult and the fun of solving it would still remain.
09:34:39 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> I can't find a reason given in the git logs, unfortunately.
09:47:59 <Discord|> <06m​umra> Maybe to stop new players thinking it actually did something, especially anyone who has come from nethack would be trying to id their potions by dipping them it 😂
09:49:12 <Pinkbeast> That's rings FWIW / fountain quaffing _used_ to do something, al la NetHack
09:51:17 <Pinkbeast> It seems likely it was removed as a useless appendix at some point after it stopped doing anything
09:51:26 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> noisytoot: it wasn't fun, exciting, or interesting. it was a way to translate players' time into a very very marginal advantage
09:51:50 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> drinking from water fountains was actually removed two years before drinking from sparkling and blood fountains
09:52:01 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> oh, i misread, just a few months
09:52:02 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> %git 17b3b5fd33d7b71f4c6cab2931f3188eaae2f6a6
09:52:03 <Discord|> <04C​erebot> kilobyte * 0.14-a0-1377-g17b3b5fd33: Disallow drinking from regular fountains. (10 years ago, 1 file, 5+ 9-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/17b3b5fd33d7
09:52:04 <Pinkbeast> I sit corrected
09:52:08 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> %git a797b2f5bcfa6e76355eebd5d988e3564e88460c
09:52:08 <Discord|> <04C​erebot> kate- * 0.14-a0-2849-ga797b2f5bc: Make sparkling/blood fountains purely decorative (10 years ago, 4 files, 7+ 129-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a797b2f5bcfa
09:53:41 <Pinkbeast> Embarassingly I've seen those commits before
09:53:57 <Noisytoot> it's not rings either, you can id rings by dropping them in sinks, not fountains (fountain can (un)curse items)
09:55:50 <Pinkbeast> Whoops! Oh well, it's not like I wrote the standard spoiler on identifying stuff back in the day. Oh, wait.
09:56:07 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> you wrote it so you wouldn't have to remember it!
09:56:15 <Pinkbeast> Ha ha only serious
10:36:54 -!- Loggers_VIII79 is now known as Loggers_VIII
12:48:11 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> Thinkin about books
12:49:32 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> there's a real problem of shuffling what spell is in what book when adding, removing or reworking spells
12:52:25 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> there's an unfortunate number of considerations for 'how do you do this right'- each book is constrained by number of spells per book, flavor theme of the book, mechanical coherence of the book. Each spell needs to appear in enough books, preferably often enough along spells that lead up to/follow it
12:53:53 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Combined with the fact that each spell must show up in exactly 2 books (with very few exceptions), it often leads to a complicated optimization problem that we have to solve by hand
12:54:08 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> (And then write several cute paragraphs about ^^; )
12:54:09 <Pinkbeast> Exactly 2 books> huh
12:54:10 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> Also book-data.h is horrible
12:54:36 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Yes, we have to manually search and ensure it didn't end up in too many or too few books
12:54:53 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> I don't know if you saw the thoughts I recently posted about this topic here? (And some messages afterward) https://discord.com/channels/205277826788622337/205316046230388737/1229511556832825457
12:55:07 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> yeah, that's a large part of what got me on this
12:55:34 <Pinkbeast> . o O (now background books are gone, all randart books)
12:56:50 <NotCheibriados> New branch created: pull/3767 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3767
12:56:51 <NotCheibriados> 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3767 * 0.32-a0-939-g01cc47e5b0: Fix a few things about wanderer 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 21+ 21-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/01cc47e5b0c8
12:57:18 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> I don' t know that i like single school books that much personally
12:57:46 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Single school books or the single spell minitomes I talked about there?
12:57:57 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> whoop meant spell yeah
12:58:48 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> I am not sure there is a lot of mechanical difference between 'pick up a book containing 2 unrelated spells you don't have' (as happens often now) versus 'pick up 2 different individual spells across the same length of game time', is there?
12:59:14 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> I mean- that's kind of a constructed example
13:00:50 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> THe big differences I'd anticipate are in finding a book that convinces you to pivot- like, book of Ice contains enough of a midgame Ice kit that I'm happy to pivot on finding it- and severely boringing up shops
13:02:48 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> Also, if you're doing single school books you're far more likely to get a spell for your starter school
13:02:54 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> I don't know if you noticed the part where I was suggesting that larger books (allowed to be larger than now, even, since constrains could be loosened) would remain as rare drops
13:03:15 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> So that you could still sometimes get a larger part of kit at once as a more exciting reward
13:04:05 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> (Also: I think the shop UI would be vastly improved by just selling individual spells most of the time. Like, that was even the original impetus in past discussions, outside of the book sorting problem)
13:04:23 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> hmm. It would improve shop UI, that's very true
13:05:10 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> (Spellbook shop UI being so terrible is actually a pet peeve of mine. I often don't even bother to sift through them and will just later on maybe try to find a spell I care about with ctrl+f >.>)
13:05:23 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> I think though that 'rare larger books, mostly one spell at a time' does drastically change how caster early game works
13:06:02 <NormalPerson7> Spellbook shop UI _is_ currently terrible, but I'd be concerned that you'd have to make each spell shop sell 20+ spells if you wanted to match the current availability
13:06:10 <NormalPerson7> maybe that's okay
13:06:55 <Pinkbeast> Current availability is quite bad because the books are expensive, it's not clear that selling _n_ spells a la carte would be worse
13:07:11 <NormalPerson7> yea it occurs to me that's probably actually a lot better
13:07:19 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> I think it would be a lot less interesting though
13:07:31 <NormalPerson7> I'm still quite worried about the rest of the game though
13:07:46 <NormalPerson7> currently finding 3 spells of a school (often what a book contains) is enough to convince you to go into that school
13:07:55 <NormalPerson7> sometimes you only find 1-3 books in the earlygame
13:08:07 <NormalPerson7> it wouldn't be so interesting if you just picked up, say, 9 random spells
13:08:22 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> To be honest, I think that a huge fraction of existing books don't actually have a sufficiently mechanically-connected set to temp anyone to pivot most of the time. Some do, but it feels like a 50/50 split.
13:08:34 <NormalPerson7> That's fair
13:08:57 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> I feel like it's more weighted towards connected than not
13:09:03 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> but that might be quibbling
13:09:13 <NormalPerson7> But those books that aren't connected are often quite lame to pick up imo
13:09:24 <NormalPerson7> It would be better if we could reorganise the books to be more connected
13:09:44 <NormalPerson7> (which I understand is hard, and sometimes there are other themes that are nice to have)
13:09:58 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> That only makes the manual shuffling problem that much harder, and it's already remarkably difficult, imo
13:10:00 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> but like, switching from 3 books to 9 random spells I feel like makes the incentive much more towards 'pray to find a spell in your start school'
13:10:23 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Like, each time I have done this, it's taken me quite a lot of hours of focused work just to fit a modest number of new things in >.>
13:10:42 <Pinkbeast> There are a few spells like Yara's where I don't care if the rest of the book was Iskenderun's Noseblowing
13:10:58 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> self published book entry ahoy
13:11:23 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> It is a fair concern, though I am genuinely unsure that it's actually meaningfully worse at this in practice than it is right now. You make more rolls at getting something useful, but get less at a time if you succeed at those rolls.
13:11:32 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> It's still easy to get 3 books and find nothing useful
13:11:34 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Currently
13:12:05 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> I wonder if there's some reasonable way to run statistical simulations of this
13:12:43 <NormalPerson7> How about just making all spellbooks random?
13:12:45 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> the trend towards more likely to get something in school is basic law of large numbers
13:12:54 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> but that's not super informative on details
13:12:58 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (I do wonder if it'd be a lot easier to have one of the two required books for each spell include some vaguely-explicit "run-off book" that just temporarily stores things until we e.g. get another high-level alchemy spell to cover the impending new alchemy spells)
13:13:00 <NormalPerson7> as in, artefact-type random
13:13:14 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> yeah, this was one of my thoughts
13:13:21 <Pinkbeast> NormalPerson7: <Pinkbeast> . o O (now background books are gone, all randart books)
13:13:38 <NormalPerson7> pinkbeast: yes I saw that, I didn't know how much of a serious suggestion it was
13:13:47 <NormalPerson7> but I think it's a good one
13:13:54 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> the other being the significantly more suspect 'define books in spell-data then autogenerate'
13:14:05 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> That's not mechanically unreasonable for dungeon drops, but does make the shop UI even worse to a meaningful degree, imo ^^;
13:14:14 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Randart spellbook shops are horrible >.>
13:14:26 <NormalPerson7> I don't see why you couldn't combine it with shops selling individual spells
13:14:35 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> At least with normal spell shops, I have a chance of recognizing some things without examining every book individually
13:14:40 <Pinkbeast> Make 'em all antique shops, judge from the title # this one not serious
13:15:08 <Pinkbeast> "950 zorkmids - a manual of something, probably a skill that's still in the game"
13:15:25 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> hmmm.
13:15:31 <NormalPerson7> I think my vote would be: shops sell individual spells, books you find on the floor are randarts, maybe adjust how randart books are made to make them more like some of the current books
13:15:51 <Pinkbeast> Or shops could sell almost exclusively fixed books in this scenario
13:16:15 <NormalPerson7> what do you mean by "fixed books"?
13:16:17 <Pinkbeast> It would be less important to get fixed books "just right" because that would be a relatively minor source of spells.
13:16:23 <NormalPerson7> I see
13:16:28 <Pinkbeast> The kind defined in book-data.h
13:16:38 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> My vote would be 'all randart but magically fix the shop UI'   (barring vaults)
13:16:54 <Pinkbeast> Vaults could place them but it would be discouraged compared to giving an indication of theme.
13:17:39 <NormalPerson7> the only thing you might have to adjust for is the fact that it isn't _quite_ the case that all spells appear in 2 books
13:17:49 <NormalPerson7> certain high-level and level 1 spells only appear in 1 book
13:18:00 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> actually I should probably sleep on a la cart spell shops
13:18:09 <NormalPerson7> so you might have to artificially make them rarer
13:18:12 <Pinkbeast> An explicit statement of intended spell rarity would surely be an improvement
13:18:21 <NormalPerson7> or that ^
13:18:59 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Currently level 9 spells are in exactly 1 book, along with Infestation, and Borg's Revivification. Everything else between level 2-8 is in two.
13:19:22 <NormalPerson7> I thought also horrible things?
13:19:24 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> (Most 1s are only in 1 also, but I hadn't personally checked every one)
13:19:28 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Oh, right
13:23:42 <Pinkbeast> (This is a fascinating conversation because our book-data.h is kind of accreting at random...)
13:24:08 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> gonna re-raise this idea
13:24:37 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> though I think someone's gonna be able to poke a fatal hole in it
13:25:07 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> would it improve things signficiantly to define what books a spell is in as part of the spell's definition
13:25:52 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> draco: i feel like you're making this harder for yourself than you need to? think it's fine to let things be mushy for a while, to occasionally let spells be in the 'wrong number' of books, etc. it's all vibes
13:26:02 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> monkooky: how would it?
13:26:22 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> when creating or adjusting a spell, you have immediate access to 'where is this spell'
13:26:49 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> but it seems harder to observe and control how many spells are in each book, right?
13:27:02 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> hmmm. yes.
13:27:03 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> my take is that we should be more explicit about 'spell rarity' (as alluded to above) and weight books accordingly
13:27:11 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> then we won't have to worry as much about how many books each spell is in
13:27:45 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> err, do you intend the weightings to be manually defined?
13:27:51 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> book frequency = sum of (spell rarity / # of books spell is in)
13:27:54 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> no, probably it'd just be per-level
13:28:16 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> and maybe we do some junk with item level to try to spawn low-level books earlier - we do now, i think
13:28:27 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> so maybe "spell weight" is a better term than "rarity"
13:28:47 <NotCheibriados> 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3767 * 0.32-a0-939-ga36ab03120: Fix a few things about wanderer 10(40 minutes ago, 1 file, 23+ 22-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a36ab031200f
13:29:20 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> That would help
13:29:57 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> There's been a lot of situations where there's an obviously-appropriate spell to put in a book, but then that spell is in 2 other books already, so in order to use it I feel the need to swap one of those existing uses out with something else from somewhere else, and then that maybe leads to more dominos
13:31:25 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> constraints for the current system: - making each spell appear at a broadly similar rate compared to other spells of that level (fixable per above) - generating enough spells early that there's good odds of spellcasters finding some kind of upgrade, but not so many spells that they get their whole game lined up by d:8 (this is why we have ~3 spell books - not sure if there's a more sophisticated way to do this that isn't
13:31:26 <Discord|> incredibly complex) - having fun flavour
13:31:59 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> all of these constraints are 'soft' and are easy to bend without breaking the game
13:32:50 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> i agree it's work to shuffle things around; i personally enjoy it and would be happy to do so as a follow-up to whatever changes you work
13:32:56 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> but it's also fine to let things slide to some extent
13:33:20 <Pinkbeast> PF oh thanks, when I finish Velakast's Universal Solvent I'll drop you a line # joke
13:33:26 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> we have so many books and so many spells that it's hard for players to notice small divergences from the ideal
13:33:27 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> 😛
13:33:55 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> As a side note, if anyone does do a rework of how spellbooks work, can you change how player-spellness is decided
13:34:00 <NormalPerson7> one divergence I have noticed though (and I might see if I can fix and PR) is the book of the Spheres has 5 spells
13:34:07 <NormalPerson7> which is a bit too many
13:34:16 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> it's kind of dumb that non-monspells must be in a book or shit crashes
13:34:18 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> book of the spheres is blessed by the crawl gods
13:34:22 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> it gets to be the exception
13:34:43 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> I still assert that that just needs a sixth spell so we can have a Book of the Lesser Spheres and Book of the Greater Spheres.
13:34:51 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> we definitely have more spheres
13:34:57 <NormalPerson7> that would be nice
13:35:00 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> i'd be shocked if we didn't
13:35:11 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> imo do this but both have the same six spells
13:35:36 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> ("definitely" said with total confidence, before hurriedly double-checking)
13:36:15 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Was going to ask if you were really going to count all explosions as spheres, even when this includes "storms" and "unravelling".
13:37:11 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> i could swear there was another one that i removed from that book at some point
13:37:12 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Yes, I also very specifically left Book of the Spheres alone, even as I wanted to move boulder into something else 😛
13:37:15 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> maybe i'm hallucinating
13:37:20 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Because it's a good joke
13:37:37 <NormalPerson7> I mean yara's, irradiate, ignition sort of count
13:37:39 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> don't seem to be any other good options rn tho. tragic
13:39:41 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Currently in rebasing hell, trying to deal with the fact that several spells are between an early draft of one spell and the spell it eventually become, chronically
13:40:11 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> praying for you…
13:40:26 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> I'd say something about how Cannonade or Magnavolts could hypothetically get non-placeholder tiles for their spawns that look spherical, but I'm sure Draco would collapse in a pile on figuring out another reconfiguration again.
13:41:11 <NormalPerson7> how many new spells are in the pipeline then?
13:41:20 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> 4
13:41:25 <NormalPerson7> wow!
13:41:36 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Should be ready to push shortly after I solve this git stuff
13:41:43 <NormalPerson7> exciting
13:41:45 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> does this actually work the way you want it to? let's say we have Alistair's Augmentation (spell A) in 5 books; but it is intended to be rare. and Borgnor's Bogmentation (spell B) in 2 of those 5 books and no others; it is intended to be common
13:42:19 <NormalPerson7> monkooky: then B is 2/5 as common as A (except randart books)
13:43:11 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> Sure, but the idea being floated is that you can set rarity as a spell property and book drop weight is determined by the rarity of the spells in it
13:44:23 <Pinkbeast> Inasmuch as I'm floating it, that is in conjunction with most books being randbooks (and the chance of a fixed book appearing could be derived from the rarity of the spells in it)
13:45:36 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> ok yeah that can fix it
13:46:51 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> might end up with situations where Borgnor's Bogmentation is in like every randbook, but that's fine
13:47:51 <NormalPerson7> I highly doubt it
13:48:22 <NormalPerson7> for a start, currently most randbooks pick two schools and give random spells in those schools
13:49:12 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> that was hyperbole
13:58:14 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> spell rarity can be solved pretty conveniently by single spell books btw
13:58:30 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> i like everything about single spell books except for the flavour cost
13:58:42 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> but the flavour cost makes me very sad
13:58:43 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> since then rarity is just freq of that book + some small % chance of generating a randart (negligible)
13:58:58 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> monkooky: i don't really understand the question, sorry
13:59:19 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> I wonder how much flavor single spell books actually lose
13:59:37 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> You miss out on funny theme + title but you can still have a book description thats separate from the spell description
13:59:43 <NotCheibriados> 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-939-gf7567baaaa: Add more misc colours for Blork dialogue. 10(43 minutes ago, 1 file, 46+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f7567baaaac8
13:59:49 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> so in some sense you have room for double the lore
14:00:30 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> at last we can bring back fannar's backstory in the book of ozocubu's refrigeration
14:00:33 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> oh, i didn't realize you were suggesting actually naming and describing these books
14:00:36 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> that's spicy
14:00:37 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> hm
14:00:58 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> write out the full casting instructions in the book desc
14:01:20 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> I guess I'm envisioning the book desc containing the spell desc but having room for an additional piece of lore if you want it
14:01:46 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> (because having the spell desc immediately on the screen instead of having to menu to it is Just Better)
14:02:01 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> would they also have their own names, or would it just be the Book of Lehudib's Crystal Spear etc?
14:02:03 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> basically I don't think your formula as proposed makes spell rarity closely map to actual frequency in game
14:02:15 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> does it help if i rename "spell rarity" to "spell weight"
14:02:17 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> probably cleanest to just use the spell name
14:02:20 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> as i suggested later in the convo
14:02:27 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> for ux reasons
14:02:48 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> not needing to memorize that lcs is in the book of the moon troll or whatever
14:02:57 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> no, because I have no idea what exactly spell weight is meant to do and it doesn't seem to make it easier to balance how often spells show up
14:02:57 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> or menu into it to find out every time
14:03:40 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> definitely a tradeoff tho
14:03:49 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> sure
14:04:03 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> monkooky: let me resummarize my pitch (though i wonder if going hellmo's way is more likely)
14:04:16 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> @dolorous_84348 you may enjoy https://www.reddit.com/r/dcss/comments/1c4sk5c/elephantaur_shiver/ btw
14:05:03 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> Thanks for the notice. Glad to make some players shiver 🙂
14:05:12 <NormalPerson7> I'm still really concerned that if you go for single spell books, the chances of finding a useful set of mid-level spells worth training for in D:1-10 (thus defining the direction of the game) will shoot through the floor
14:05:26 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> normalperson7: why?
14:05:31 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> you would increase book frequency to compensate
14:05:51 <NormalPerson7> right but even so, you're just gonna get some random set of spells
14:06:07 <NormalPerson7> no guarantee whatsoever they're of coherent level or school to be useful
14:06:08 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> is that very different from status quo? current books are often very nonsynergistic
14:06:15 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> tons of them are theme rather than school or mechanics
14:06:27 <NormalPerson7> this is true
14:06:51 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> @Monkooky   the idea was: 1. start to generate a book item. 2. look at item level. based on that, assign a weight to every spell level. e.g. item level 10 wants to generate spells of around level 4-6, so it weights spells of level 5 at weight 10, spells of 4 or 6 at weight 8, 3 or 7 at weight 6, etc down to 1. 3. go through each book. assign each book a weight based on average of (spell level weight / # of books that spell is
14:06:52 <Discord|> in). 4. choose a book based on the book weights from (3).
14:06:53 <NormalPerson7> but currently the theme books don't often convince me to train for them when I find them
14:06:55 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> does that make more sense?
14:07:14 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> normalperson7: i don't think that's a primary goal?
14:07:15 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> I think you could do something with book shops to help as well, perhaps (currently kind of bad and expensive in a lot of cases)
14:07:52 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> Incidentally, Blork's list of rare colors is a lot bigger. Although there's one disappointing thing: I've known for a few years that "Sorcerer's Violet" is another (much cooler) name for the periwinkle, but it only applies to the flower, not the color, so it can't be used in the color list.
14:07:56 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> i wrote above what i think the primary goal is:  > generating enough spells early that there's good odds of spellcasters finding some kind of upgrade, but not so many spells that they get their whole game lined up by d:8...  occasionally encouraging pivots is nice, but not expected to be common
14:08:10 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> @dolorous_84348 don't let that stop you!
14:08:23 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> don't think you have to commit to single spell books, but it does take care of spell weighting nicely
14:08:42 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> yes, it'd let you skip step (3) in my proposal above
14:08:48 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> ok; for some reason I was thinking each spell would get a frequency modifier
14:08:58 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (For the record, flatly increasing book frequency while also reducing book spell count nerfs Elf:3 / Vaults:5 loot a fair bit, which I brought up with Draco last night and she spun that into replacing stone placements: https://discord.com/channels/205277826788622337/205316046230388737/1229512770131857458)
14:09:00 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> This is why I had originally been thinking that manually-defined spellbooks (at least the cooler ones) could stay around as 'unrands' with a lot less constraints on exactly what was in them. Because yes, the flavor of so many of these descriptions is quite neat. (Though I suspect few of them actually get read since the book is automatically destroyed as soon as you autoexplore into it...)  But spreading descriptions around onto
14:09:00 <Discord|> individual single-spell books as hellmonk mentioned is another thought....
14:09:02 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> If you say so!
14:09:30 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> i think the book descriptions are mostly read in shops these day, yeah, tragically
14:09:46 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> Hm. I feel like the vast majority of my casters I pivot based on a single book I find
14:10:36 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> imo make players read the book description before they can memorize spells from it
14:11:21 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> but reading is for nerds!
14:11:33 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> add a dialogue box with a quiz you gotta pass to memorize the spell
14:11:34 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Vaguely imagining having a "full flavour" .rc toggle that dumps the book descriptions into message logs whenever they're picked up, alongside guaranteeing food cache messages on pick-up and messages for passing by fountains and probably some other things I'm forgetting.
14:11:53 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> yes this is why it's a flavour enhancement bc you need int to cast
14:12:20 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> How does one quiz anybody on the Book of Sloth?
14:12:29 <NotCheibriados> 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-940-g8c197d95f1: Add one more colour for Blork's dialogue. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8c197d95f197
14:13:21 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> this still can do weird things.  if spell A is in 3 books; coexisting with B in one, C in another, D in a third and B, C, and D each only appear in one book
14:13:34 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> spell A will be 3 times as common as B, C, or D
14:13:51 <NormalPerson7> presumably the idea is you would still roughly balance the number of books with each spell
14:13:57 <NormalPerson7> it just wouldn't have to be so rigid
14:15:12 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> ah, rip
14:15:23 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> no, i just hadn't thought it out 😛
14:15:27 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> monkooky is right
14:17:07 <Discord|> <02M​onkooky> Did you read the book? (Y/N)  N is the correct answer
14:22:29 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> the correct answer is to not bother answering the question until your connection times out
14:22:39 <Discord|> <06p​leasingfungus> just wait for the SIGHUP...
14:25:44 <Discord|> <09h​ellmonk> librarian unique that makes you answer a multiple choice test about spellbook descriptions and torments you on every wrong answer
14:53:49 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Curse you "Typo in tile name rewinds compilation by 10 minutes" * shakes fist *
15:00:45 <Memoria> meckryl: I'm a bit late on this, but wrt caches of fruit, several of the vaults that use it are natural fruit trees where a crate etc wouldn't make much sense. could still be done, but it's worth noting
15:02:07 <Memoria> (I was originally for tables or crates so the caches wouldn't be mistakable for items you could pick up until I realized this)
15:18:11 <meckryl> Oh, thanks!
15:23:54 <NotCheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-941-g697f7be91b: Fulsome Fusillade: level 8 Conjurations/Alchemy 10(8 days ago, 19 files, 317+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/697f7be91b66
15:23:54 <NotCheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-942-g7e3501342c: Rimeblight: New Level 7 Ice/Necromancy spell 10(5 days ago, 30 files, 306+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7e3501342cac
15:23:54 <NotCheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-943-g242962994e: Seismic Cannonade (level 7 Alchemy/Earth) 10(2 days ago, 32 files, 395+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/242962994ea3
15:23:54 <NotCheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-944-ga627dd3ad3: Magnavolt (level 7 Air/Earth spell) 10(9 days ago, 36 files, 250+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a627dd3ad3c1
15:23:54 <NotCheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-945-g4722b9ceb0: Some tweaks to auto-aiming to make Magnavolt work sanely with autofight 10(18 hours ago, 6 files, 61+ 22-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4722b9ceb024
15:23:54 <NotCheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-946-gb27d4a036e: Shuffle new spells into spellbooks, add 3 new books in the process 10(3 hours ago, 5 files, 58+ 14-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b27d4a036e01
15:36:47 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-940-g8c197d95f1 (34)
15:44:08 <NotCheibriados> 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-947-g1366db7308: Fix typos, wording, and spelling. 10(2 minutes ago, 3 files, 8+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1366db73083e
15:44:55 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Appreciated, as always! (Even if it also always makes me go "I really need to make sure to run all this stuff through a spell-checker first" and then promptly only remember to do that for like half of it >.>)
15:45:07 <Discord|> <06d​olorous_84348> No problem.
15:53:42 <NotCheibriados> 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-948-ga1d19d5947: Fix missorted Blork colour entry. 10(88 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a1d19d5947d2
16:02:16 <NotCheibriados> 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-949-g6b026da01a: Fix spellbook name typo. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6b026da01a18
16:56:07 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> meckryl:  * The fruit cache pieces looks pretty nice. As Memoria mentioned, they're used in multiple contexts between "some plants or trees dropped a bunch of fruit" and "some orcs / goblins / elves / yaktaurs / etcera dropped off some fruit into a closet"- I was sort of envisioning a fallen circle or a heaping pile of fruit rather than anything orderly like a chest, table, or blanket. We’ve had fountains for decades as
16:56:08 <Discord|> something sizeable people can just stand on, after all. (If only we had more flexible layering for vaults?) * The gavotte icon still feels a little weird on the stuck-out leg (not that I quite know what to suggest for anatomy even when it's this extremely tiny), but is pretty close to good enough. * The gravitambourine's tambourine part is quite nice. The outline on this and the box of beasts tiles are a bit off, since nearly every item besides orbs try
16:56:08 <Discord|> to have a full black outline on physical parts of objects or entities- see how it's done on lightning rod and condenser vane for examples of such. The pink aura's also a bit weird- a bit thick and single-colour for something with no transparency and also a colour not very much like the shades of purple we make everything translocations-themed in this game use (aside from dispersal traps)- while the item isn't strictly translocations in terms of the
16:56:09 <Discord|> spellschool or teleporting people, it's close enough in the older position and current flavour I'd prefer shifting it over to said purple.
16:56:10 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> * The box of beasts tile is very cute and very literal, which helps it a fair bit. I've got mixed feelings about the readied box's shadowy-cat-tail overlaid on the outside of the box, as it helps it be cute but reads a fair bit as there being a gash in the box that heals up when the box is inert- possibly it'd be fine as just slightly brighter than pure black? That’s pretty much my only concern, though. * The rakshasa tile's
16:56:10 <Discord|> kind of generic in design and flatly shaded. A fur-like striping (c.f. yaks and death yaks) could help a fair bit, and so would making the gold a bit more prominent (limb braces getting bigger, adding an amulet necklace or a golden belt). I think the ears are a little big (and thus invoke orcs a little too much), and a bit more saturation in the skin overall would help. I'd almost want something more deformed than what kind of comes off as another orc
16:56:11 <Discord|> or ogre- maybe small tentacle legs (compare octopode and weird mutant beasts) would help, or a smaller cap and an even larger face? * The Yred invocations are... awkward, due to the iterations. I heavily preferred the streaking flame of the second version’s Raise The Black Torch and dislike the thinner streaking white of the third version’s Hurl Torchlight. Lowering the torch base in the former to allow both a taller flame and a streaking flame, and
16:56:11 <Discord|> going for more cyan streaking in the latter, both would help a fair bit.
17:03:25 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (In terms of the rakshasa offering being flatly shaded, I guess I'd use orange demons, balrugs, and brimstone fiends for comparative examples of shading to learn from?)
17:29:24 <Discord|> <06m​umra> @dracoomega Fusillade seems to be able to fire through transparent walls btw
17:31:12 <Discord|> <06m​umra> Although the tracer tells me there are no valid targets, it is happily destroying things the other side
17:39:06 <NotCheibriados> New branch created: pull/3768 (3 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3768
17:39:07 <NotCheibriados> 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3768 * 0.32-a0-950-g9fa81a0c3d: Balloon Yak: new Zot monster 10(64 minutes ago, 18 files, 96+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9fa81a0c3d45
17:39:07 <NotCheibriados> 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3768 * 0.32-a0-951-g648378d5ff: Anachrobat: new Zot monster 10(24 hours ago, 19 files, 62+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/648378d5ff03
17:39:07 <NotCheibriados> 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3768 * 0.32-a0-952-g2e32bbd438: Add anachrobats and balloon yaks to vaults 10(6 minutes ago, 9 files, 33+ 25-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2e32bbd438b5
17:41:59 <Discord|> <06m​umra> @regret-⸸nde※ A first stab at these couple of chaos monsters
17:45:30 <NotCheibriados> 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3768 * 0.32-a0-953-g7e8b9f832f: Fix spacing and change char colour 10(42 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7e8b9f832fb9
18:16:33 <NotCheibriados> New branch created: pull/3769 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3769
18:16:33 <NotCheibriados> 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3769 * 0.32-a0-950-g73ccfe8d40: Make Killer Klown rare speech actually rare 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/73ccfe8d401b
18:31:26 <NotCheibriados> 03mumra02 {dolorous} 07* 0.32-a0-950-g82205d557d: Make Killer Klown rare speech actually rare 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/82205d557d6c
18:32:12 <Discord|> <06m​umra> Good finds
18:32:30 <NotCheibriados> 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-951-gfd48ac3f16: Make Dissolution/tormentor rare speech be rare. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fd48ac3f16f9
18:32:34 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> Oh dear. Thanks for the catch.
18:35:09 <Discord|> <06m​umra> Fun spell tho. Was incidentally testing a ghost vault spawning in wizmode and accidentally murdered everything inside 😂
18:47:23 <NotCheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-952-g002fc65269: Don't let Fusillade hit targets through glass (mumra) 10(68 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/002fc65269b9
19:33:07 <NotCheibriados> New branch created: pull/3770 (40 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3770
19:33:18 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3770 * 0.32-a0-517-g2ca90a6665: Update salamander.png, cerulean_imp.png, and 24 more files... 10(7 weeks ago, 26 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2ca90a6665d2
19:33:18 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3770 * 0.32-a0-518-gf698bcf748: Update orc_apostle_priest1.png, orc_apostle_warrior1.png, and 6 more files... 10(7 weeks ago, 8 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f698bcf74833
19:33:18 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3770 * 0.32-a0-538-g879b5ff21f: Merge branch 'crawl:master' into master 10(7 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/879b5ff21f7e
19:33:18 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3770 * 0.32-a0-540-gce3e9a9805: Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/Ploomutoo/crawl.git 10(7 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ce3e9a9805a0
19:33:18 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3770 * 0.32-a0-548-gea09486988: Merge branch 'crawl:master' into master 10(7 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ea094869887a
19:33:18 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3770 * 0.32-a0-549-ga88b548c03: gobold 10(7 weeks ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a88b548c0318
19:33:18 <NotCheibriados> 03Eggdude1102 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3770 * 0.32-a0-550-g207128cada: Fattens ynoxinul, molten gargoyle, and war gargoyle 10(7 weeks ago, 3 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/207128cadac4
19:33:18 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3770 * 0.32-a0-551-gde8cf2f98d: Update ancestor.png, ancestor_battlemage.png, and 2 more files... 10(7 weeks ago, 4 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/de8cf2f98d73
19:33:18 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3770 * 0.32-a0-584-g8329cf5a23: Merge branch 'crawl:master' into master 10(7 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8329cf5a23fe
19:33:18 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3770 * 0.32-a0-595-g625de0b1b9: Merge branch 'crawl:master' into master 10(6 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/625de0b1b95f
19:33:18 <NotCheibriados> ... and 30 more commits
20:06:16 <NotCheibriados> New branch created: pull/3771 (42 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3771
20:06:28 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3771 * 0.32-a0-517-g2ca90a6665: Update salamander.png, cerulean_imp.png, and 24 more files... 10(7 weeks ago, 26 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2ca90a6665d2
20:06:28 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3771 * 0.32-a0-518-gf698bcf748: Update orc_apostle_priest1.png, orc_apostle_warrior1.png, and 6 more files... 10(7 weeks ago, 8 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f698bcf74833
20:06:28 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3771 * 0.32-a0-538-g879b5ff21f: Merge branch 'crawl:master' into master 10(7 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/879b5ff21f7e
20:06:28 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3771 * 0.32-a0-540-gce3e9a9805: Merge branch 'master' of https://github.com/Ploomutoo/crawl.git 10(7 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ce3e9a9805a0
20:06:28 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3771 * 0.32-a0-548-gea09486988: Merge branch 'crawl:master' into master 10(7 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ea094869887a
20:06:28 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3771 * 0.32-a0-549-ga88b548c03: gobold 10(7 weeks ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a88b548c0318
20:06:28 <NotCheibriados> 03Eggdude1102 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3771 * 0.32-a0-550-g207128cada: Fattens ynoxinul, molten gargoyle, and war gargoyle 10(7 weeks ago, 3 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/207128cadac4
20:06:28 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3771 * 0.32-a0-551-gde8cf2f98d: Update ancestor.png, ancestor_battlemage.png, and 2 more files... 10(7 weeks ago, 4 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/de8cf2f98d73
20:06:28 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3771 * 0.32-a0-584-g8329cf5a23: Merge branch 'crawl:master' into master 10(7 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8329cf5a23fe
20:06:28 <NotCheibriados> 03perci02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3771 * 0.32-a0-595-g625de0b1b9: Merge branch 'crawl:master' into master 10(6 weeks ago, 0 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/625de0b1b95f
20:06:28 <NotCheibriados> ... and 32 more commits
20:50:48 <Cbrotell> holysushi (L17 CoHu) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Shoals:3)
20:52:33 <Cbrotell> holysushi (L17 CoHu) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (Shoals:3)
21:38:59 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Hmmmm. Should I paste these 500 words on the monsters pull request into this channel for mumra to see later, or into the github PR page so we're making a little more visible progress on rapidly giving feedback to the yet-still-endless issues backlog? >_>
21:43:24 <NotCheibriados> New branch created: pull/3772 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3772
21:43:24 <NotCheibriados> 03dolorous02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3772 * 0.32-a0-953-g99e06e0bd7: Add abandoned chaos spawn temple overflow vault. 10(30 hours ago, 2 files, 41+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/99e06e0bd77d
21:54:20 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> I guess I'll just post it here since dev PRs are in a very different position from contributor PRs.
21:58:50 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Oh, but, before that: the chaos temple seems good to me. I'd mostly just make the I glyphs all .s, because I find it hard to read vaults that use letters for what are almost entirely floor and NSUBST with the floor glyph instead, and I'd rather have generic colour-specific crystal walls just be renames that redirect their descriptions to the main crystal wall description, because we've got a lot of other colour of crystal wall
21:58:51 <Discord|> uses that don't get different descriptions.)
21:59:03 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> I worry a little these two in PR #3768 kind of compete rather heavily with each other by both using chaos effects in Zot in some awkward fashions. I know you got a fair bit of advice to not over-complicate new enemies with one-off effects, but I think variations of mechanics that already exist don't put nearly as much pressure as e.g. new lists to memorize or new debuffs to learn.
21:59:11 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Anachrobats: I'm not super confident on another notably-strong-melee-only monsters in Zot. Zot has several of those already- tmons, orb guardian, draconian monks- and while they're all weaker than Depths' versions (juggernauts, caustic shrike bands) right before that, they're all cautiously balanced due to being in the same branch as a dozen moths of wrath each game. These initial numbers (speed 18 battiness, 30/40/40 chaos
21:59:11 <Discord|> hits, 80 HP and 30 EV) are quite nasty to anticipate being berserkable some notable fraction of the time, and . Also, the blink close / away spell list duplicating jumping spiders isn't really how it supposed to be handled either (there's "generic" shared monster spell lists at the top of mon-spell.h), and we use variants of blinking nearly the whole game long at this point- I would probably prefer AF_BLINK_WITH instead of a third chaos hit, which
21:59:12 <Discord|> emphasizes weird movement much more heavily than just blinking away does. I think overally I'd rather a highly aggressive chaos attacker be a Pan untiered demon (c.f. hellephants and apocalypse crabs) instead the Melee Orb Of Fire, even if the pun would be too silly to see elsewhere- if nothing else, also because there's more mechanical interest space possible with the other one. (Alternatively, maybe it could be another Zot-only unique, as a different
21:59:12 <Discord|> tactic to preserve the pun? It's very dangerous, but even with a small circus band it’s hardly going to approach the ridiculousness of Tiamat’s band.)
21:59:16 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Balloon Yaks: While I like this joke a fair ways more than the other one, the implementation's deeply silly. Windblast spells on a band of melee-only monsters makes them shove players around a pretty heavy amount without actually dealing much direct damage, and also flings away other band members away from actually hitting the player much. It also kind of defeats the point of their death explosion, since they'll shove the
21:59:16 <Discord|> player away from themselves and other yaks away from the player whenever they breathe, so even melee characters most likely will just wand or javelin them down without being hit. (Also, the description's pretty grotesque, which isn't unwarranted but compares weirdly to klowns / toes / cobs in the same branch.) The original intent of my outlines and write-ups was to emphasize the whimsy of a balloon popping through rather different variations of the now
21:59:17 <Discord|> heavily-used (and weirdly un/balanced) death explosion damage effects- either windblasting on death and distributing a few chaos clouds, or using the old plague shambler gimmick of an expanding chaos cloud where they died (except faster than one can could previously walk to outpace). Probably alongside AF_RANDOM_BAND_SINGLE instead of multiple exploding enemies together? I have to admit I haven't actually tested out much of those prior
22:04:54 <Discord|> <06r​egret-⸸nde※> , but they're fairly more distinct than more irresistable explosions in the branch (stormcallers, proteans).
22:07:52 <NotCheibriados> 03dolorous02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3772 * 0.32-a0-953-g2dd22633f9: Add abandoned chaos spawn temple overflow vault. 10(31 hours ago, 2 files, 41+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2dd22633f922
22:13:31 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> I generally agree with most of what was said there, but I also want to point out that the numbers on anachrobat's melee compare pretty favorably to Mnoleg of all people (and apply chaos like 3 times as often!). With what much chaos flying around there on a dangerous body, I'd worry that the odds of, say, sleep into an immediate 100 damage hit (without even factoring berserk into the mix!) or the mini-para also ensuring the next 40,
22:13:31 <Discord|> 40 land will be likely enough that it's going to happen to people (and it's going to feel real unsatisfying when it does)
22:14:06 <Discord|> <04d​racoomega> (I had also assumed the point of wind blast on balloons was as a death effect and not something they used while alive. Popping the balloon and all)
22:18:29 <NotCheibriados> 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-953-g508020473e: Add abandoned chaos spawn temple overflow vault. 10(31 hours ago, 2 files, 41+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/508020473ebc
22:35:46 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-953-g508020473e (34)
22:59:28 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-953-g508020473e
23:32:14 <Cbrotell> Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-953-g508020473e (34)
23:55:51 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-953-g508020473e