03:31:34 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 05:06:46 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-921-g04a7ad8 (34) 06:02:49 Is it intentional that if you get given an evoker as part of your starting equipment as a wanderer that it doesn't prevent that evoker or a mutually exclusive one from also spawning in the game? I can see how this behaviour would be consistent with starting scrolls of butterflies and wands, but it seems weird that an unrand-like item can spawn 06:02:49 twice if it's part of the starting equipment 06:08:47 <05icoson> that's probably a bug 06:09:30 <05icoson> the relevant bit isn't set on equip creation or something 06:10:00 <05icoson> (actually I wonder if it's intentional that, post-unique-evokers, that one of these can be wanderer starting gear?) 06:15:02 hmm, I personally don't see much harm to it, certainly creates a unique-feeling start 06:23:27 <12ge0ff> The lightning rod does 2d15 if you have 0 Evocations. And it recharges very fast at low XLs, iirc. Don't know if players actually reroll Wns to get it, but it's a crazy item. Probably a too good one. 06:24:27 right the lightning rod is probably too good, particularly with 4 charges 06:24:52 fwiw I used the sack of spiders against Terence at XL 3 ish and got it back at XL 6 06:24:58 so yea the recharge is fairly quick 06:25:40 (also you're probably getting 3-4 evo skill if you got an evoker, as the evokers are in the "good evocations" category) 06:38:46 <06mumra> Independently, maybe that should be rescaled to do much less damage at 0 evo 06:39:34 <06mumra> Because someone could still find it really early 06:43:27 <12ge0ff> Hmm. 2d15 is the damage of the first beam. Subsequent beams do more: 2d15 -> 3d15 -> 4d15 -> 5d15. Testing that in wiz-mode, I just did 111 damage to a monster at 0 Evo. 06:44:03 <06mumra> ⚡ 06:44:53 <12ge0ff> (time to win my two remaining Wns - CoWn and OnWn) 07:36:30 New branch created: pull/3760 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3760 07:36:30 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3760 * 0.32-a0-922-g9da03802f3: Fix wanderer evoker starts from allowing duplicate evokers 10(7 minutes ago, 4 files, 21+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9da03802f3da 07:41:20 <06mumra> Bit of a thought: since evokers are effectively unrands now, their charge amounts and so on could all be stored on the item instead of using those messy player props 07:43:58 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3749 * 0.32-a0-876-g3ff539f7cf: Improve the A screen for forms 10(10 days ago, 6 files, 220+ 70-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3ff539f7cf32 07:44:21 <12ge0ff> oh, right, since you no longer need to synchronize charges of evokers of the same type 07:47:10 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3760 * 0.32-a0-922-gde309d74b3: Fix wanderer evoker starts from allowing duplicate evokers 10(18 minutes ago, 4 files, 21+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/de309d74b3c9 07:49:18 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3760 * 0.32-a0-922-g0284fd1e66: Fix wanderer evoker starts from allowing duplicate evokers 10(20 minutes ago, 4 files, 22+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0284fd1e666b 07:57:33 <06mumra> Yeah pretty sure that's the only reason it's done that way, otherwise it would have been an item prop 07:59:44 <06mumra> Also, I am wondering if it's necessary to always have evokers fully charged when first found, especially for wanderer starts 08:00:12 <06mumra> (Maybe floor evokers could be uncharged, but one from a shop or acquirement would be ready charged ... "batteries included") 08:02:01 <12ge0ff> that would be a good way to tone down Wns that start with evokers 08:10:43 related question: do you have to carry an evoker in your inventory for it to recharge? 08:13:22 <06pleasingfungus> yes 08:13:48 <06pleasingfungus> otherwise it’d be optimal to drop em whenever they discharged (in a 3 rune game) 08:14:02 <06pleasingfungus> which is fiddly 🙂 08:16:03 right, I figured 08:23:25 <06mumra> Also wouldn't really make sense from any kind of realism angle if things you weren't carrying could be "charged" by your XP gain 08:24:26 <06mumra> As far as you can talk about realism in this context 🙂 08:29:26 <06dolorous_84348> And considering what you usually do to get XP, it effectively turns e.g. a lightning rod into a murder-powered llightning stick. If it charged up when not in your inventory, you could assume it was being charged up by other killings done near it, but that would come off as less "evokable device" and more "doomsday device". 09:54:45 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3760 * 0.32-a0-922-gfaf78afa5a: Fix wanderer evoker starts from allowing duplicate evokers 10(2 hours ago, 4 files, 20+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/faf78afa5af5 10:01:09 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3760 * 0.32-a0-922-gb0f2d65ab3: Fix wanderer evoker starts from allowing duplicate evokers 10(3 hours ago, 4 files, 20+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b0f2d65ab380 10:43:29 <04dracoomega> Somewhat related (though independent of the issue of starting with an evoker) I am reminded a bit of my brief musing the other week of having a 'minimum skill' for different evokers (not unlike how talismans work) to make it easier to balance certain effects that can't downscale very well from being 'always available for 'free''. Like, phantom mirror remains super effective at 0 (and is somewhat hard to make it less effective in a 10:43:29 simple way) and lots of people specifically train almost no evo while still making liberal use of a few of these items. Evokers in general are pretty inconsistent with how much they make use of evo skill, in ways that I think probably aren't very clear unless you're quite familiar with them? Some are pretty terrible at 0 skill (which can give the false impression that they're always pretty mediocre and won't reward invest in them) while others are 10:43:30 still quite strong at 0 (or barely even get stronger). Arguably putting a threshold number on some of them might help with that, beyond just some rescaling efforts? (As part of, I'm hoping still sometime in 0.32, also adding enough new evokers to make the pool of ones available in a given game more flexible) 10:43:33 <04dracoomega> Just a thought 10:53:57 <06dolorous_84348> If you tried to use an evoker below minimum skill, would it fail unconditionally, or would it work at such a low power level that it wouldn't be worth the effort? Talismans, with their HP penalty below the threshold, seem to do the latter. 10:55:26 <04dracoomega> I kind of assume it just doesn't let you use it. "You can't figure out how to operate the X" or whatever. Since part of the point is that it's hard to scale some effects low in a reasonable way, and this feels more... clear, to me at least? 10:59:52 <06dolorous_84348> Okay. Since talismans would seem to be more about magic and less about technomagical knowledge, that makes sense. 11:02:30 <06dolorous_84348> And if they end up acquirable via scrolls, they could use a similar formula to that of talismans. 11:03:12 <06dolorous_84348> (If your plan of having enough evocables to just pick five that show up in any given game comes to fruition.) 11:44:06 <06mumra> (Randart evokables and how would that even work??) 11:44:24 <06mumra> But yeah the minimum skill sounds interesting 11:44:51 <06mumra> Although taking e.g. phantom mirror, could you not just make the summon time out after like 1-2 turns at 0 evo 11:47:48 <04dracoomega> Possibly. I am not sure that actually feels better, though. 11:48:06 <04dracoomega> As opposed to making the mirror look like junk to the uninformed 12:08:09 <08wormsofcan> talismans have a binary threshold because of their strategic nature, what about just adding a fail % for the evokers 12:08:17 <08wormsofcan> that depends on skill, I mean 12:08:20 <08wormsofcan> instead of also making them binary 12:09:05 <06dolorous_84348> "At 0 Evocations, You use the phantom mirror on the monster. The monster briefly admires itself, and then resumes its attack on you." 12:09:07 <08wormsofcan> scarves of invis still scale off evo right 12:12:19 <06dolorous_84348> Yes, both items with the invisibility ego and artefacts with the invisibility property. 12:13:30 <06regret-⸸nde※> Scarves of invisibility also drain when they fail or succeed, to discourage rerolling the high fail %. 12:14:11 <06dolorous_84348> Notably, the artefact property doesn't drain. 12:14:19 <04dracoomega> I don't really like the idea of adding a failure chance to items that have been defined by never failing 12:16:10 <06dolorous_84348> Indeed. Since wands can miss, but they never actually fail to work. 12:17:10 (certainly if you were to have a minimum skill for evokers that would be the end of Wn starting with them) 12:17:31 <04dracoomega> I mean, Wn is happy to start with spells they can't yet cast 12:17:47 <04dracoomega> (I have few strong opinions on Wanderer in general, though) 12:18:00 actually that's true, I thought about that exact comparison earlier and then forgot 12:18:25 <06dolorous_84348> And should there be one (low-level) evocable that works with zero skill, a la beast talismans for players breaking into shapeshifting? 12:18:45 <06dolorous_84348> Or do wands cover that? 12:19:06 <04dracoomega> Well, I kind of figured that the skill requirement would vary between evokers rather than being flatly the same for each one. If we were doing this thing at all, I mean. 12:19:27 <04dracoomega> And yes, some could be deliberately more or less accessible 12:30:00 <06dolorous_84348> For the record, I have no problem with wanderers starting with evocables they can't use yet. (Also, wanderers can't start with talismans; should that be an option as well?) 12:32:03 <04dracoomega> Honestly, I feel like most things that have affected wanderers are almost incidental and few people even understand how they really work 12:32:08 <04dracoomega> Though I am prepared to be incorrect there 12:32:25 I mean there was a rework a while back right? 12:33:20 <06dolorous_84348> Yes. I remember the days when you could start with all the skills you had lower than level 1 (before fractional ones were shown) and the starting message "You wake up in a daze, and can't recall much." 12:33:29 seems harmless to include a beast talisman as part of the possible starting equipment 12:33:51 flux would be more awkward because you might want to prefer it to go with unarmed skill 12:34:46 <06pleasingfungus> i tried to add wn talismans but ran into some technical issues iirc 12:34:48 <06pleasingfungus> should be doable 12:35:04 <06pleasingfungus> i sort of liked beast talisman as minor gift and flux as major 12:35:31 <06pleasingfungus> randart beast as major would be probably too spicy… maybe… 12:36:12 randarts can be bad though too... 12:36:19 <06pleasingfungus> ya 12:36:51 <08wormsofcan> when are we getting an unrand mutant beast talisman that gives you talons, claws, horns and a stinger 🤔 12:37:32 <06dolorous_84348> For when you feel like being a monstrous demonspawn, but aren't one! 12:40:17 other thing I noticed today was Wn's stat assignment seemed kind of weird - staves apparently give you dex, whereas polearms/throwing/unarmed have an equal chance of str/dex - perhaps these should always be str? 12:42:17 <09hellmonk> This is I think a legacy thing from old str weighting 12:42:25 <09hellmonk> prob could use some revision 12:42:40 <06mumra> I think it would seem strange having an absolute skill cutoff on one class of items when nothing else works that way ... like you apparently know how to wear a full suit of plate armour at 0 armour skill even if it's not optimal for some characters. Having a failure chance that reduces to 0 by the minimum skill for the evokable seems less absolute than suddenly being able to use it without issue after a cutoff (and it's nice that 12:42:40 talismans don't work that way, although i think the language is confusing .. when i saw "minimum skill" i assumed exactly that i just wouldn't be able to use it at all) 12:43:08 Hey, I'm new here. What discord is this linked to? 12:43:11 <09hellmonk> I think it may also exist to ensure that wn receives stats more evenly than they otherwise would, since there are fewer explicit dex skills 12:44:47 <06mumra> Was also thinking it'd be nice to reintroduce some fairly weak evocable for Artificer starting gear that drops off in usefulness by around midgame 12:44:48 right but as it currently stands there are 3 str skills (axe, m&f, arm), 7 dex skills (sbl, lbl, rng, ddg, shd, sth) and 5 coinflip skills 12:45:08 although most species do have more str than dex, so I do see the merit to having more dex stuff than str stuff 12:45:39 (forgot staves is also a dex skill) 12:46:26 <09hellmonk> Yeah, probably can be revised given the newer mechanics 12:46:50 <09hellmonk> (wonder if shield should be coinflip now as well) 12:46:57 right I was thinking that 12:48:04 will probably do a bit of testing to make sure it doesn't make Wn too unlikely to get dex 12:53:39 I'm interested in contributing tile art, but I'm not sure really what the best way to approach that would be 12:53:42 <08wormsofcan> xom's chesspiece has entered the chat 12:54:11 <06pleasingfungus> meckryl: the discord is invite-only to reduce moderation concerns, sorry! i'm happy to hear you're interested in contributing tile art! we have a list of things that could use art, or you could find things that you're interested in and submit them 12:54:38 <06pleasingfungus> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles contains our existing art, eg https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/mon/demihumanoids/jorogumo.png 12:54:48 <06pleasingfungus> note that most tiles are 32x32 pngs 12:55:24 <06pleasingfungus> you can send over pngs individually, or you can put up a pull request in https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pulls with your changes 12:55:32 Ah, that makes sense no worries! I'm a zoomer so i'm just way more used to discord's interface, but this works. 12:55:41 <06pleasingfungus> 🙂 12:57:02 <08wormsofcan> we are still looking for a bunch of deco tiles like food, right? 12:57:11 What things could use art? I don't have anything particular in mind, I just like doing art stuff and it would be nice to contribute to a game I've been playing off and on for like 6 years 12:59:08 <06pleasingfungus> honestly, you can look through https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commits/e52afbec8579785abae39111cb079cc0261f599f/crawl-ref/source/rltiles... most of the things added this year are placeholder 12:59:17 Gotcha 13:00:21 For now I'll go through the commits that say placeholder I guess 13:00:41 <06pleasingfungus> evoker "gell's gravitambourine", spells "gell's gavotte, maxwell's piledriver, permafrost explosion", Yred ability icons, unrands "gloves of the gadgeteer, charlatan's orb" 13:01:08 <06pleasingfungus> player species: coglin 13:01:30 <12ge0ff> having more tiles for mutations would be great too 13:01:38 <06dolorous_84348> the new "Brilliance" unrand ("palette-swapped" and "palette-adjusted" are other ways of saying placeholder) 13:01:40 <06pleasingfungus> decorations: boulders, caches of fruit, caches of meat, mystic cage <- esp this, bedeviled crystal, magic conduits 13:01:55 <06pleasingfungus> oh, yeah, we got halfway through the project of adding tiles for all mutations and then stopped 13:01:56 <09hellmonk> Maxwell's etheric home decor 13:02:43 <06pleasingfungus> you can type ?/u mut in-game to see a list of all mutations, including which ones have tiles 13:03:19 Making a screenshot of this, thanks!! 13:03:22 <06dolorous_84348> monster coglin, for that one vault with monster versions of all species 13:03:35 <06pleasingfungus> philosophical question: are monster coglins just goblins? 13:03:42 <06pleasingfungus> i'd be tempted to argue yes 13:04:00 <06dolorous_84348> Probably, but the exosuit is the important distinction from ordinary goblins. 13:04:26 <06dolorous_84348> And it would be nice to see one in-game, and I can't draw one. 13:08:34 <06dolorous_84348> (Meaning the exosuit.) 13:09:11 <06mumra> (and it needs two weapons) 13:09:40 <06mumra> also note: the tambourine needs both an "inert" and "charged" version 13:11:18 <04dracoomega> Hey, I think piledriver's is actually perfectly fine 😛 13:11:38 <04dracoomega> (The tambourine was admittedly "About the best I could manage" :P) 13:11:46 <12ge0ff> yeah, tambourine's art is pretty good! 13:12:38 <06pleasingfungus> draco: i've never seen it! I was just going down the list of commits 🙂 13:12:39 <12ge0ff> (just need to have an inert version of it) 13:12:54 <06pleasingfungus> oh, if we're requesting more evokers, i think we wanted inert versions of more of them? 13:12:54 <06regret-⸸nde※> (I don't think bedeviled crystal or conduits really need different tiles? Boulders also were cut from decorative use, though it'd be good for the spell's actual animated boulders to have a non-beetle tile.) 13:13:40 <04dracoomega> There... is? 13:13:41 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Maybe I should fit a hole into the conduits though.) 13:13:55 <06pleasingfungus> i guess box of beasts and tin of tremorstones are the ones missing inert versions? 13:13:58 <04dracoomega> I mean, I don't think either one is great, but if it doesn't display on webtiles, then it's a bug 13:14:02 <06pleasingfungus> draco: it's not in rltiles 13:14:16 <06pleasingfungus> there's misc_tambourine.png, but no _inert version 13:14:35 <12ge0ff> Out of current misc evokers only the box looks "placeholder"y: 13:14:36 <12ge0ff> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1228075750326927440/misc_evokers.png?ex=662ab9ab&is=661844ab&hm=fdfa26371b98ea1e2dcb0b0ffd95bb868b1fc8a4d1f5f80979bba8a65a044090& 13:14:42 <04dracoomega> I specifically remember making one. There was a whole conversation with index over this, in fact. >.> 13:14:54 <06regret-⸸nde※> I guess it just missed actually being put in? 13:14:56 <06pleasingfungus> oh, sack is also missing an inert one 13:15:07 <06pleasingfungus> so sack, tin, box 13:15:38 <12ge0ff> (it'd be great to have something like a github wiki page for the required art) 13:16:00 <04dracoomega> That would make sense, yeah 13:16:36 <06pleasingfungus> ge0ff: fun trivia: box of beasts' current tile dates back to the very first tile commit! https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/62f7040f14b39e67042be98f951575fbc819e84e 13:17:07 <06pleasingfungus> (and possibly further back) 13:18:37 <06mumra> can confirm the inert version not there, since i was just looking at the code, and had a whole conversation with index over this as well 😂 13:18:44 <04dracoomega> I guess to me, it seems a lot simpler to work that way? I realize other items and gear currently do not (and it's not like I'm completely sold on this idea in general, even if it's something I was interested in thinking about more seriously). Because a sliding fail chance scale is going to mean there's some period of time where the success rate is good enough to make reliable use of it, but still low enough to sometimes fail 13:18:45 anyway, and I don't really like the idea of introducing this to a class of action that was always dependable? 13:19:16 <06mumra> in webtiles the inert versions are not used at all for any evoker (at least in the quick access bar) 13:19:58 <02Monkooky> personally, I feel like the push towards making 0 skill evokers useless is bad 13:20:03 <12ge0ff> launches a local web tiles version to make a screenshot for mumra 13:20:06 <04dracoomega> Also things like a lightning rod having a chance to fail in the middle of charging up seems bad 13:20:14 <04dracoomega> Given the way its damage scaling works 13:20:19 <06pleasingfungus> didn't we just have that discussion re webitles? 13:20:21 <06pleasingfungus> this sounds really familiar 13:20:53 <06mumra> yes, like yesterday 13:21:03 <06mumra> sorry i said it was index but it was you 13:21:12 <06pleasingfungus> it was me all along...! 13:22:21 <12ge0ff> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1228077701521346651/panel.png?ex=662abb7c&is=6618467c&hm=5d9f9996099366cb95e6cd32bd90714fe66372cd4afaee43e93541ee9dce7059& 13:22:38 <06mumra> ahh how do i keep getting this wrong 😂 13:23:09 <06mumra> i think maybe i was looking at tremorstones and the inert tile (especially darkened) doesn't look particularly different from the ert one 13:23:11 <06pleasingfungus> ge0ff: i'm working on https://github.com/crawl/crawl/wiki/Art-Requests now 13:23:17 <06pleasingfungus> tremorstones doesn't have an inert version 13:23:50 <02Monkooky> Some evokers are certainly too good at 0 skill; phial, perhaps lightning rod, old condenser vane but it seems to me that the correct solution to 'misc evokers being unusuably bad at very low skill gives the impression they are always bad' is... not have misc evokers be unusably bad at very low skill 13:26:25 <06regret-⸸nde※> That, of course, hits an entire separate problem of "levelling Evocations is seen as somewhat niche", though I'm sure very different opinions are held on this matter between such, levelling Throwing, and levelling defenses to 27 every game ASAP. 13:27:01 <06pleasingfungus> hm, is leveling evo seen as niche? 13:27:07 <04dracoomega> I mean, I am not exactly sure what I think if they were all universally 'fairly good' at 0 skill, either. (To say nothing of some effects being intrinsically harder to scale strongly with power one way or the other) 13:27:40 <06regret-⸸nde※> Levelling beyond some arbitrary low number, anyway. 13:28:03 <04dracoomega> To be clear, I am not entirely convinced at my own suggestion about skill thresholds. It was just a thought to make some things less universally free and easier to balance (while also allowing some stronger new effects that might be hard to make a 0 evo version of at all). 13:28:44 <04dracoomega> (I actually think that phantom mirror is actually more obviously super good with no investment than phial is, though simply expanding the pool so that it's not in literally every game does help with that somewhat) 13:29:03 <02Monkooky> oh, yeah mirror should be on that too good at 0 list 13:29:04 <06mumra> having an absolute minimum skill is definitely simpler and also communicates "this will definitely be useful from N skill" -- but i think if that is done, then talismans need to work the same 13:29:20 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Tell me when you're done with editing that page, PF. I'll add to it myself.) 13:29:42 <02Monkooky> think you can put 'cannot be used below X skill' in the tooltip and it'll be fine 13:29:52 <08wormsofcan> maybe add a link to that in the topic afterwards 13:29:58 <04dracoomega> Like, whatever their other issues, thresholds can simultaneously address 'too good at 0' and 'too weak at 0' 13:29:59 <02Monkooky> talismans clearly state the consequences of minimum skill 13:30:28 <12ge0ff> yeah, the box and sack are pretty unimpressive at very low evo 13:30:44 <02Monkooky> vane is quite astonishingly bad at low evo now 13:30:48 <02Monkooky> as is tremorstones 13:31:54 <12ge0ff> you try them, get a weakly ally that dies to a yak or one cloud, and ignore the items for the rest of the game 13:37:40 <02Monkooky> (as an aside- mindburst should definitely have a 200 power cap, right now you hit cap at 24.something evo) 13:38:49 <08wormsofcan> sack gives you two allies, one of which could be a culicuvora or redback! 13:40:08 <12ge0ff> or just two scropions 13:41:13 two scorpions isn't useless, it still gives you a chance to e.g. swap with an ally to create a space 13:41:38 <04dracoomega> 'Not literally useless' doesn't stop something from being deeply, deeply sad (and giving a bad impression of an entire item) 13:41:44 right 13:41:57 <06mumra> Random thoughts for new evoker items: Dreamcatcher: Releases a number of dreams which roam around seeking monsters and put them to sleep Liar's Lyre: Targets a single monster and causes all other monsters to think that monster is the player Bagpipes of blowing: Targets only a single line in a compass direction (or alternately starburst targetting) Just pushes monsters back a few tiles. Possible starting item for artificer. (I honestly 13:41:58 don't know why 2/3 of these are instruments and I don't really want to reopen the "should silence affect evokers" debate 😂 ) 13:42:20 <08wormsofcan> it's kind of funny the gap in power between 0 skill sack and 6 skill sack though 13:43:02 <02Monkooky> intent question- is the goal for misc evokers to be 'good at 0 skill on D1, train evo to keep it good' 13:43:26 <02Monkooky> similar to how many other tools function 13:45:44 <04dracoomega> I... don't know, I suppose? I sort of feel like wands already widely fit an 'evocations item that is strong for everybody in early game, and then falls off without investment' (but also investment in them isn't that strong, in my experience) and it's mechanically fine if the evocables ask a little more of you in general to get going and aren't D1 items? 13:46:07 <04dracoomega> But maybe an early one encourages you to invest a little differently, I suppose? 13:46:11 <04dracoomega> Depending on what it is 13:46:23 <02Monkooky> I think I'm growing of the opinion that evokers being good at 0 skill is completely fine 13:46:37 <04dracoomega> Note: I never intended the skill requirements to be high in the way that lots of talismans are high, to be clear 13:47:25 <02Monkooky> If finding phial is just pure value with no training requirement... that doesn't seem like a problem to me. 13:47:33 tbh my opinion is the first 5 or so skill levels are so cheap and evo is useful for nearly every character that I don't see why every character (after say lair) wouldn't have 5 evo 13:48:32 <04dracoomega> (I hadn't given it a lot of concentrated thought, but I kind of assumed that even the highest baseline requirement ones like mirror might still only ask for ~9 and many would deliberately be lower) 13:49:09 doing something like this might certainly convince me to train evo a bit higher though 13:49:14 which would be an interesting choice 13:49:22 <02Monkooky> There are issues to be found- Phial not really getting better with training is not desirable. Old vane had wack ass scaling which was very undesirable. 13:49:32 <06pleasingfungus> maybe someone should sit down, think up a good philosophy of evokers, and write up a paragraph or two. then we can all reply to that and say how great it is 13:49:36 <06mumra> I can definitely see that maybe some players wouldn't realise that necessarily and having some min skills item is a way to encourage them to dabble a bit and realise, oh hey that has other benefits too 13:49:45 <06pleasingfungus> (i'm not convinced that there's a consistent philosophy at present) 13:50:25 <04dracoomega> Yes, I think it's been something of a grab-bag 13:50:30 <02Monkooky> yeah. 13:50:40 <04dracoomega> Which is probably part of why some things are really bad at 0 and some are almost entirely fine without bothering to get skill at all 13:51:52 <04dracoomega> Yeah, one advantage is that like... rather than an item being weak at 0, we can pick some number where it will definitely start to actually do a thing you notice, and then when a player uses it there, they can see this. (And items with higher thresholds can be dramatic enough to maybe make it feel exciting to get them online) 13:51:57 <04dracoomega> Maybe 13:53:13 <02Monkooky> Man I really dislike this approach It feels like it's at best papering over some fundamental flaws 13:54:09 for phial/lightning rod once can also fiddle with the formulae 13:55:06 random thing I just discovered: apparently the damage formulae shown when examining these items is randomised by whatever div_rand_round formula is used 13:55:12 that probably shouldn't be random 13:56:20 also I've only just realised how terrible the evo skill scaling is on the lightning rod 13:56:33 <04dracoomega> As in, it's actually different each time you examine it? 13:56:47 Xd15 at 0 skill, Xd22 at 27 skill 13:56:50 <09hellmonk> XP evokers are a different type of consumable that trades off some of the potential shortcomings of traditional consumables (stockpiling and power spiral) for a design that makes expending them more significant in the short term but unimportant in the long term. The skill related aspects are mostly legacy stuff I think, it's just "always" been the case that they are tied to a skill. 13:56:52 dracoomega: correct 13:57:01 <04dracoomega> (A bunch of 'showing of formulas' specifically doesn't randomly round in menus, but probably is inconsistent) 13:58:01 <04dracoomega> Are you suggesting you think it would be better if they didn't scale at all? 13:58:02 (at least, it was true for the lightning rod - it's very possible it's fixed for the phial) 13:58:26 <09hellmonk> No, I'm suggesting that them scaling is sort of incidental to their underlying gameplay function 13:58:47 (compare Xd15->Xd22 for the lightning rod to 4d5->4d21 for the phial) 13:59:15 <09hellmonk> much like wands scaling imo (but wand scaling is balanced more consistently, probably) 13:59:41 <02Monkooky> Damage wands do all scale at roughly the same proportion 13:59:49 <02Monkooky> roots maybe being the exception? 14:00:10 <09hellmonk> I don't think it's necessarily wrong to have a "consumables skill" though 14:00:18 <09hellmonk> If the choices are interesting 14:00:27 <04dracoomega> Roots scaling was quite non-linear before the 0.32 constriction changes and is somewhat less so now, but I'm not sure specific care was made to compare it to other wands 14:00:52 <04dracoomega> (It does suck less at 0 now, though, for sure :P) 14:01:04 <06mumra> Hmm, artificer could start with say a min skill 5 evoker and then it's more like caster starting kits in that you have something guaranteed that will come online in a few levels to get you through to Lair but isn't available at XL 1 (artificers are otherwise rather luck dependent on finding some wands) 14:01:35 <02Monkooky> uh, feel like you're very badly misreading the artificer background 14:01:40 artificer is more just a "blank slate" start that gets wands to deal with the early dungeon 14:02:22 <04dracoomega> Artificer is pretty good as-is, imo 14:02:28 <02Monkooky> yeah 14:02:51 there aren't really any other "blank slate" backgrounds like that, so I like it 14:03:19 <04dracoomega> (Has the somewhat unique gameplay of 'Having to figure out what your long-term gameplan even is' from what you find, while having super strong early consumables to solve some number of problems until you do that) 14:03:34 exactly 14:03:56 <04dracoomega> (I think Delver is a bit black slate-y too? But Delver obviously has other things going on :P) 14:04:10 right right how could I forget delver... 14:04:36 <04dracoomega> But I liked Delver so much that I went and won all of them on my first version coming back to modern Crawl ^^; 14:05:32 <04dracoomega> Think it's genuinely possible they're stronger than, say, gladiator once you get the hang of it. (Artificier is probably one of the strongest starts in general, though?) 14:06:01 <02Monkooky> think delver is more prone to unavoidable deaths 14:06:30 <02Monkooky> still rare for them, but much less rare than most bgs 14:06:30 <04dracoomega> It surely is, but really my success rate at getting back to D:1 ended up being very high by the end (and almost always with some of the good consumables left) 14:07:33 it is interesting to compare De and CK, they both have the possibility of unavoidable deaths 14:07:56 but it's rare in both cases, idk which is worse 14:08:07 <09hellmonk> same 14:08:26 <09hellmonk> I think they're clearly bottom 2 but idk which is bottom 1 14:08:57 <04dracoomega> This is somewhat tangential to evoker threshold discussion, but while on the general topic, I saw it suggested some time ago that instead of 'Only one copy of an evoker can spawn each game' (sometimes leading to unfortunate feelings regarding Gauntlet paths you can't take or bazaar shops you can't buy from or whatnot) additional copies of an evoker that you already have merge to make the new one '+1' or something when you pick them 14:08:58 up and give improved recharge rate. This does also mean that instead of more or less reliably filling out 'your full set' all of the time by some point, some runs might have fewer different ones, but some particular evoker (maybe even one you otherwise wouldn't use as much?) will be noticeably better than it would on average. Could even put them in shops a little more frequently, since they'd stop running out of there being a 'point' of doing this 14:08:58 nearly as quickly. 14:09:09 <04dracoomega> Wondering what other people think of the general concept 14:09:22 <04dracoomega> To be clear, same pool limitations for total number of different things you can have. 14:09:52 sounds interesting, would be a bit awkward to flavour 14:09:56 <06dolorous_84348> That does sound interesting, and it synergizes with wands, too. 14:10:24 <04dracoomega> You drain the magical essence of one item into the other? 14:10:31 <04dracoomega> And the former crumbles away 14:10:34 (it's also weird how you can get evokers from acquirement but because of how acquirement ungenerates items you didn't choose you can then still get the evoker) 14:10:45 <06mumra> Additional ones are flavoured as "a broken X" and you "use the spare parts to improve your X" 14:11:20 <04dracoomega> Can't really do this, since technically multiple of the same thing could generate before you pick up either. Weird to have items in shops suddenly break because you bought one from a different shop 14:11:49 you could make them all broken if you had them start unusable and have to be charged first 14:12:32 <09hellmonk> Clearly there should just be one evoker and you keep adding new parts to customize its effects 14:12:52 <04dracoomega> I remember reading a comment that if evokers were ever added to acquirement, that specific care would need to be done to make sure they ungenerate. Were they recently made acquireable and I never noticed it or something? ^^; 14:13:45 I have certainly been offered one from acquirement 14:14:08 <06mumra> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1228090736126464040/image.png?ex=662ac7a0&is=661852a0&hm=8e29e4ad157de65b4e21bfba6eeaa73041627b5d62d05b97c08377f791fced02& 14:15:00 <04dracoomega> %git 4925a30cd082e48d1926941e749fb9d177807d59 14:15:01 <04Cerebot> dolorous * 0.32-a0-636-g4925a30cd0: Revert "Destroy unchosen misc items in acquirement." (5 weeks ago, 1 file, 4+ 11-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4925a30cd082 14:15:09 <04dracoomega> Hmm? 14:15:25 <06dolorous_84348> Yes, my mistake. (Evokers can be acquired, but not from scrolls.) 14:15:48 <04dracoomega> No, it's more like, this is recent and saying they can't be gotten from scrolls, while someone else is claiming otherwise 14:15:53 <04dracoomega> So I am even more uncertain than before ^^; 14:16:09 <06dolorous_84348> If they can be gotten from scrolls, it's news to me. 14:16:47 <06dolorous_84348> That bit of code was when I was trying to understand the acquirement code well enough to get talisman acquirement working. 14:18:06 <06dolorous_84348> Given what gammafunk and PleasingFungus pointed out to me about generation tracking around that point, I'm pretty sure evokers can't be acquired via screolls. 14:20:21 <09hellmonk> They could at one point and it was removed, probably 14:20:34 <06dolorous_84348> I figured. 14:23:21 so it certainly looks like they aren't supposed to be gotten from scrolls, which makes sense 14:23:25 I will do some investigation 14:24:01 Is there a description for Permafrost Explosion? And how should I share stuff I make with someone who can decide whether it belongs in the game or not? 14:25:37 <02Monkooky> http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Permafrost_Eruption think this is up to date, fortunately 14:25:58 <06dolorous_84348> Or check source/dat/descript/spells.txt if it isn't. 14:26:48 Thanks! I didn't see anything put in there in the commit that added the spell, so I wasn't sure if one existed at all yet 14:26:54 Now I know where to look 14:29:17 aaaa git is scary but I should learn how to do a pull request. Do you all keep like a personal branch that you make changes to and then create pull requests from that? 14:29:27 Not sure how this would work 14:29:39 <02Monkooky> You want to create a fork of the repository 14:30:16 <02Monkooky> (that's your personal version of the repository, that you can change with abandon) 14:32:31 <02Monkooky> then, you probably want to make a branch in your fork-you can make your changes for a particular goal in this branch without your master branch diverging from the main repository. 14:32:41 <12ge0ff> usually artists just post their work on whatever image sharing service they prefer. Creating pull requests is not required for art 14:33:47 <12ge0ff> (also, could post the art on the roguelikes discord, on the #crawl channel) 14:36:15 gotcha, thanks! 14:36:52 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Using a PR makes it much less likely the art is missed by any devs during lulls in activity, however.) 14:37:42 <02Monkooky> (but also just posting somewhere is easier enough that you should probably resort to that first) 15:05:16 <06pleasingfungus> draco: it's always seemed hard enough to get reasonable scaling for evokers without adding another multiplying factor in 15:06:22 <04dracoomega> Entirely reasonable. (Actually, the original suggestions were about increasing evoker power and that felt completely doomed since we're not even slightly consistent about that. Recharge rate felt like something at least possible in that space) 15:07:29 <09hellmonk> return of the evocations enhancer 15:07:44 <02Monkooky> that already exists and I need to change it 15:07:59 <06pleasingfungus> i guess i feel like recharge rate is also tricky to get right 15:08:16 <02Monkooky> because it turns out that increasing evoker power is stupidly inconsistent and in at least one case just breaks 15:08:22 <06pleasingfungus> it's something i've battled with on and off, to limited success 15:08:24 <09hellmonk> the underlying xp curve is very wacky 15:08:38 <06pleasingfungus> it is. 15:08:40 <09hellmonk> (also the skill dependent part still exists I think) 15:08:43 <06pleasingfungus> yes 15:09:08 <09hellmonk> in principle something that is keyed to some % of an xl probably works better lategame 15:09:17 <09hellmonk> but this would make recharging way too fast early 15:09:28 <04dracoomega> Actually, I think that is how it currently works? 15:09:52 <09hellmonk> is it? 15:10:07 <09hellmonk> I thought it was some very complicated raw xp number 15:10:37 <02Monkooky> I thought it used the drain number? 15:10:38 <04dracoomega> I know my original (rather convoluted) formula tried to make them recharge at something broadly resembling the same overall pace in early and lategame, despite xp requirements and income varying wildly between these, but I think PF's more recent simplification is just a percentage of xp needed for some nearby level, capped in some fashion? 15:11:18 <04dracoomega> Pretty sure draining (and a number of other things) use a different set of numbers that doesn't have as steep a curve as xp-needed does 15:35:13 <02Monkooky> (I am very slow to pen thoughts on prior topic, this is about minimum skill thresholds) I think evokers should be an exciting thing to find, and a powerful tool to learn to use, regardless of char. I think evokers can add significant interesting tactical options to a fight, due to being repeatable enough to colour a run but still limited enough to use judiciously. I think the ideal is that the vast majority of characters would want 15:35:14 any given evocable, and have (possibly rare) situations where using that evocable is their best turn. I do not think it's vital that evokers motivate training evocations. I think evo scaling is desirable; it permits an archetype of 'consumable dood', allows you to potentially justify distortively powerful evoker effects, and provides a potential way to keep an evocable relevant for a longer span of the game. However, I do not think that motivating 15:35:14 players to train evocations should be a goal; I think the design should be focused on making evokers behave sanely based on how evocations is trained rather than try to make players train evocations in a way that makes evokers behave sanely. I think making basic functioning of evokers contingent on having skill in evocations is undesirable. Unlike weapons, talismans, or spells, an evoker is necessarily a small and specialized portion of your character; 15:35:15 every character being able to use any given evoker at a basic level does not meaningfully samify games. Conversely, a character being unable to use an evoker meaningfully detracts from that game by narrowing their tactical options. To me, the goal would be that every evocable is good at 0 skill in it's ideal situation- but raising skill is rewarded by making the effect more dramatic or less situational. I want to be excited to find evocables and 15:35:15 maybe train to make the exciting effect more so, rather than leave evocables on the floor because I'll need to train 9 levels for something that might be exciting 15:36:25 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-921-g04a7ad8e02 (34) 15:37:10 <02Monkooky> I think the thresholding in particular is ungood; it seems to me if you find an acceptable threshold where e.g. tremorstones 'starts getting good' then there's little reason not to set tremorstone's power at Evo 0 to that threshold. 15:38:36 <06pleasingfungus> hellmonk: it's something, all right cpp const int xp_by_xl = exp_needed(you.experience_level+1, 0) - exp_needed(you.experience_level, 0); const int skill_denom = 3 + you.skill_rdiv(SK_EVOCATIONS, 2, 13); const int xp_factor = max(xp_by_xl / 5, 100) / skill_denom; ... debt = max(0, debt - div_rand_round(exp, xp_factor)); 15:39:01 <06pleasingfungus> it used to be more complex 15:39:31 <06pleasingfungus> %git abe9d7adf63 15:39:32 <04Cerebot> PleasingFungus * 0.30-a0-1109-gabe9d7adf6: Simplify evoker recharge curves (12 months ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/abe9d7adf63b 15:40:34 <06pleasingfungus> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MKU84xL0E4dU3FkAhMTiZ7-7EiLwQI9TXgdlSoVghe8/edit#gid=0 summarizes the old and new costs, plus uses per XL at various evo skill levels 15:45:17 <06mumra> Ahh I think i found a bug in beams UMBRA_TO_HIT_MALUS is a negative value So beams are actually being made more accurate if the target is in umbra 15:45:17 <06mumra> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1228113655145697373/image.png?ex=662adcf8&is=661867f8&hm=50018378f2c8ac5b1398b1fb1775442159e87c2ed445100c1e41b2b086b8efd4& 15:45:17 <06regret-⸸nde※> Every evoker being usable at 0 skill adds a bit more to inventory pressure (compared to various lower apts + casting characters dropping box / sack / tremorstones / vane), and we never really got around to ring partial-or-full compression nor the 62 item slots PR for this version, so I'm rather wary about making them all usable at 0 evocations. I would be wary of the low evoker count overall also, but Draco's been helping on 15:45:17 that front and has more planned sooner or later. 15:46:38 <04dracoomega> I kinda feel like I always carry all evokers I've found around a lot of the time, regardless of them being mediocre? Except for, like, condenser vane or box of beasts a bunch of times, I guess? 15:46:46 <04dracoomega> I've been nodding and mulling over what you wrote up there, by the way 15:48:27 <06pleasingfungus> mumra: nice 15:50:15 <06regret-⸸nde※> Finished my immediate memories of various old requests, interests, and issues for https://github.com/crawl/crawl/wiki/Art-Requests, for the record. 15:51:02 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Not quite sure how to organize the bigger headers current done in player / monster / item / dungeon / effects / gui order, but whatever.) 15:51:20 <06mumra> Elsewhere i.e. melee, the value is added instead. Calling it "MALUS" is deceptive really, both defines should be called _MODIFIER rather 15:53:27 <04dracoomega> However, I do not think that motivating players to train evocations should be a goal; I think the design should be focused on making evokers behave sanely based on how evocations is trained rather than try to make players train evocations in a way that makes evokers behave sanely. I don't think it was an explicit goal when I was first considering this, and I think I largely agree that your second statement here makes sense? Well, 15:53:28 I guess I think that it would make sense to give bigger payoffs for training it on a number of items than currently exists? But some other ones are fine in that regard already, probably. every character being able to use any given evoker at a basic level does not meaningfully samify games. Conversely, a character being unable to use an evoker meaningfully detracts from that game by narrowing their tactical options. I'd say it can get a little 15:53:28 same-y for particular situations where the evocable is so commonly an automatic good answer (eg: throwing water in Nikola's face in a majority of games) but expanding the evoker pool may arguable address this sufficiently? To me, the goal would be that every evocable is good at 0 skill in it's ideal situation- but raising skill is rewarded by making the effect more dramatic or less situational. I genuinely wonder how this can be accomplished for some 15:53:29 things. Like, what is the 'ideal' situation for a 0 evo spider? Does this mean that we start the summon table halfway up the current list or something? I'm not exactly sure how items like that can be remotely sane in the earlygame and still relevant in the lategame if 0 is still supposed to be okay on both points unless you're also basing it on player xl or something? (Genuine question here) 15:55:16 <02Monkooky> I think it's fine for evocables to have somewhat of a window- like, 0 skill sack of spiders in zot doing nothing is fine 15:56:30 <02Monkooky> and less so but I think it's probably fine for a super early evocable to kind of just win fights for a while- D1 sack of spiders killing anything I open it on is fine 15:57:17 <02Monkooky> but that doesn't really obviate your point 15:57:36 <04dracoomega> So 'ideal' here also meaning 'period of the game it excels in' rather than just 'type of situation [at any point in the game] where it is good'? 15:58:10 <02Monkooky> I think the second one more than the first would be better 15:59:05 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1030 * 0.32-a0-922-g410ac38588: Generate job data from yaml files 10(4 weeks ago, 35 files, 1189+ 470-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/410ac38588bd 15:59:05 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1030 * 0.32-a0-923-g2bc362c57f: Generate job groups on the character selection screen from yaml files 10(4 weeks ago, 31 files, 141+ 130-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2bc362c57f9d 15:59:05 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1030 * 0.32-a0-924-g5e69497648: Add documentation for background creation using yaml files 10(4 weeks ago, 2 files, 44+ 205-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5e694976483e 15:59:05 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1030 * 0.32-a0-925-g0d35de0fb3: Move weapon_choice and job_def definitions out of job-data.h 10(4 weeks ago, 4 files, 41+ 26-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0d35de0fb39e 15:59:05 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1030 * 0.32-a0-926-gcf1afb614b: Convert weapon_choice to an enum class and abstract the yaml field 10(4 weeks ago, 17 files, 40+ 37-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cf1afb614bb2 15:59:05 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1030 * 0.32-a0-927-g035ec0070e: Move some common functions out of job-gen and species-gen 10(4 weeks ago, 3 files, 88+ 134-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/035ec0070ee9 15:59:05 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/1030 * 0.32-a0-928-gf99c1aa1ff: Use plaintext for more things in species and background YAML files 10(4 weeks ago, 70 files, 567+ 544-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f99c1aa1ff41 16:00:11 <02Monkooky> but for enough evokers I don't have a good solution besides 'aim to have 0 skill be good at [period of game]' and you need to skill to keep it good later 16:01:26 <04dracoomega> And just 0 is aimed too low for a number of these items such that it only applies before you're likely to ever find one? 16:01:41 <04dracoomega> eg: If Scorch didn't often show up until S-branches >.> 16:02:09 <04dracoomega> I mean, there's a period in the game where 2 scorpions is pretty good! But, uh... not a very long one 16:02:17 <02Monkooky> yeah 16:02:47 <02Monkooky> this also ain't anything like a complete solution 16:02:59 <02Monkooky> doesn't at all answer 'how make phial scale' 16:03:27 <02Monkooky> and vane seems... really nontrivial to adopt this approach for 16:04:35 <02Monkooky> I sleep now, I'll catch up when I wake 16:04:46 <04dracoomega> Sure, sure 16:05:01 <04dracoomega> (I mean, waterlogged duration scaling more is an 'obvious' answer to phial, probably?) 16:08:46 Could also fiddle with whatever aoe effect the phial has (can it apply the status to more than one enemy? I genuinely have no idea) 17:37:17 <08wormsofcan> vane has a lot of knobs for tweaking 17:37:29 <08wormsofcan> amount of clouds, duration of the clouds, type of clouds 17:47:28 <04dracoomega> Possibly the current version downscales too many different dimensions of it at once (ie: just a few clouds of weak types that don't last long) but I've not looked closely at the code 17:49:23 <04dracoomega> I have run down so many design variants for this spell that you could probably assemble 3 different spells along these lines from them all >.> 18:17:11 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.32-a0-922-ga7055e1045: Don't let broodmothers abjure (hellmonk) 10(5 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a7055e1045e9 18:17:11 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.32-a0-923-gf54f9d2431: New Yred Recall tile (meckryl) 10(61 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f54f9d24319f 18:25:45 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.32-a0-924-gf9495cfbe1: Add meckryl to the CREDITS 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f9495cfbe17c 18:25:46 @dracoomega (idk how to ping someone on discord), I put some other Yred tiles on the roguelikes discord, was told you should look at them 18:26:50 that should work 18:44:56 DimondSprtn (L24 FoEE) ERROR in 'tags.cc' at line 5126: Invalid item: (quantity: 0) gold piece (Vaults:3) 20:00:07 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-925-g8b09de87e5: Fix typo. 10(65 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8b09de87e521 20:14:02 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-926-gb82d5c5c13: Add more modern mythical animals to artefacts. 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b82d5c5c1388 20:14:02 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-927-g1d8594ba9b: Fix spacing. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1d8594ba9bb6 20:19:14 <06pleasingfungus> @dolorous_84348 …does this imply there’s a Jersey in Crawl? 20:24:42 <06dolorous_84348> I didn't think so, any more than the Lochaber Axe implies there's a Lochaber in Crawl. 20:24:58 <06dolorous_84348> (It also had an older name: the Leeds Devil.) 20:27:12 <06dolorous_84348> I remember there were complaints ages ago about calling the original polearm the Lochaber Axe for that reason, which is why it was renamed the bardiche, but with the unrand by that name added, I figure things changed. (Jersey/Leeds could be mythical places in the Crawl universe for all we know.) 20:28:14 <06dolorous_84348> Or someone opened a portal there and summoned the creatures, and the name stuck regardless. 20:30:26 <06pleasingfungus> tbh, i forgot that lochaber was a place 20:31:21 <06dolorous_84348> I didn't know it was one either until the subject of the Lochaber axe came up. 20:32:40 <06dolorous_84348> During the old debate, I mean. 20:34:33 <06dolorous_84348> And I was the one who picked the name bardiche, because it sounded better than the alternative of voulge, at least to my ears. 20:35:08 <06dolorous_84348> (Also, it was a case of "whoever implements the change picks the name.") 20:36:06 <04dracoomega> I mean, a Jersey Devil isn't quite the same thing, but regarding lochaber, there's actually lots of English words have specific historical origins (which people aren't even aware of) and I think it's madness to say you shouldn't use them without implying the setting has a similar history. Nothing in Crawl can have a silhouette without there being a specific French finance minister at some point in its past? 20:36:48 <04dracoomega> That's just the word now 20:36:55 <06dolorous_84348> Indeed. If the game ever mentioned boycotts, does that imply a bad landlord by the name of Boycott existed at some point too? 🙂 20:37:15