02:16:03 mertasd123 (L12 FoHu) ERROR in 'mon-cast.cc' at line 1787: Unknown monster spell 'Gell's Gravitas' cast by Pysuim's ghost (Lair:1) 03:31:23 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 04:21:50 <12ge0ff> re: noticing when evokers recharge. It's hard to miss already if you play on local or web tiles. The on-screen inventory/action panel show different tiles for empty and recharged evokers (and the number of charges). 04:22:04 <12ge0ff> For the message log, I use message_colour += lightgreen:(has recharged|has regained|chittering from your sack of spiders|faint sloshing from your phial of floods), which makes it even easier to see when you get an extra charge. 04:22:36 <12ge0ff> Colourizing such messages might be a better default option than adding force_mores and, especially, than adding a screen flash, which are too annoying and disruptive. 04:33:42 <12ge0ff> it'd be great if there was a separate message channel for evoker-related messages, so you could just do channel.evokers = lightgreen instead of adding all possible messages to a message_colour setting 05:08:28 <06mumra> Personally I still find it easy to miss - I barely look at those panels, and the icons are so tiny anyway. And I think the empty/recharged icons have actually been removed at some point, they always just show the "charged" version now 05:10:07 <06mumra> So yeah a message channel seems a good solution 05:11:44 <12ge0ff> empty/recharged icons are still there: 05:11:45 <12ge0ff> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1227229460403851275/action_panel.png?ex=6627a580&is=66153080&hm=c90c2175334dbf09e5d100da47ce727ed6a0ca1af4066b15b05e9c07b13043d8& 05:15:19 <06mumra> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1227230360006430839/image.png?ex=6627a656&is=66153156&hm=9c35af83617ae0b76994ba3e41817f1eba6884c6bcebb01d168f29f17a954a20& 05:15:25 <06mumra> not on desktop apparently 05:15:52 <12ge0ff> yeah, I see: empty evokers are greyed-out only on web tiles. Also, not all of them have an empty tile variant: 05:15:52 <12ge0ff> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1227230498741289041/evokers.png?ex=6627a677&is=66153177&hm=fe071e9801d74c5de7b211774cb917e2c6b19ba2910a656b11bec0190206a968& 05:16:03 <06mumra> yeah exactly 05:16:14 <12ge0ff> like, the phial and vane have 2 tiles, but others only 1 05:16:15 <06mumra> and honestly i think the empty variants are no longer used (i was just looking at the code yesterday) 05:17:11 <12ge0ff> Also, there's no charge numbers on local tiles. So, clearly web tiles >>> local tiles :kobold: 05:18:21 <06mumra> the icons are still too tiny on webtiles (on a 1080p laptop anyway), unless i adjust browser zoom, which messes things up graphically 05:18:47 <06mumra> i can set dungeon view scale but not UI, unless i'm missing an option 05:18:52 <12ge0ff> icons on the panel can be resized separately - there's a whole menu to tune this panel 05:19:00 <06mumra> ah 05:20:38 <12ge0ff> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1227231699109416980/panel.png?ex=6627a795&is=66153295&hm=82649fd81639b9ee801f70e1595c229a6eb2eb46b4ad41d4475a53a20f34a8cd& 05:20:44 <06mumra> yep found it now 05:21:37 <06mumra> way more usable now ... would maybe consider having a higher default setting based on window size 05:22:03 <06mumra> it's a shame font size doesn't also affect the chat window 05:23:18 <12ge0ff> hopefully, one day we'll have a proper graphical ui for all settings (https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/2873) 05:23:36 <12ge0ff> ^--- the most ambitious pr ever 05:24:04 <06mumra> hiding the menu in a right-click is also a bit non-intuitive, could just add an additional settings button tbh (and what would you do on touchscreen?) 05:24:29 <06mumra> hah oh wow 05:53:42 <12ge0ff> it's in _tileidx_misc(), tilepick.cc: cpp case MISC_PHIAL_OF_FLOODS: return evoker_charges(item.sub_type) ? TILE_MISC_PHIAL_OF_FLOODS : TILE_MISC_PHIAL_OF_FLOODS_INERT; 05:53:52 <12ge0ff> The on-screen inventory of local tiles shows them too: 05:53:53 <12ge0ff> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1227240063805554800/misc_evokers_on_local_tiles.png?ex=6627af60&is=66153a60&hm=845a007b5fc104d6161fc2a8698a54a862985410c51df70013a3bf32087edd13& 05:54:03 <12ge0ff> ^--- empty phial and rod 06:29:02 <06mumra> Oh so it does, sorry 07:37:51 03mumra02 {dolorous} 07* 0.32-a0-914-g9e1d0c6be1: Instruments shouldn't jingle when silenced 10(21 hours ago, 3 files, 4+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9e1d0c6be18d 07:37:51 03mumra02 {dolorous} 07* 0.32-a0-915-g7506e13361: Musical instruments shouldn't work silenced 10(20 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7506e133619c 07:38:56 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-916-g093061d48c: Remove unneeded space. 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/093061d48c09 08:24:49 <06pleasingfungus> @mumra are we sure we want to disable tambourine under silence? 08:24:55 <06pleasingfungus> oops misping 08:25:01 <06pleasingfungus> @dolorous_84348 ^ 08:26:06 <06pleasingfungus> this take seemed reasonable to me 08:26:07 <06pleasingfungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1227278376125857832/image0.jpg?ex=6627d30e&is=66155e0e&hm=7fd952c1a67546892d77b688d9de7d354687694512fa76d9d8b2b3a5ec4aa21f& 08:44:58 <06dolorous_84348> I figured it could go either way. Also, the commit making it not work under silence is simple and self-contained, so it's easy enough to revert that part if it's really a problem. 08:45:28 <06dolorous_84348> I guess I should do that? 08:50:29 <06dolorous_84348> And done. 08:51:09 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-917-gff2ca24bee: Revert "Musical instruments shouldn't work silenced" 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ff2ca24bee08 08:51:09 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-918-g0f22ef8d61: Remove unneeded blank line. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0f22ef8d6127 10:03:23 <06mumra> @pleasingfungus My main reasoning was that Geryon's is already silenced as well 10:05:11 <06mumra> Otherwise I was on the fence (only because I saw the silenced messages are different, I checked to see if there were any mechanical changes) 10:05:40 <06mumra> So for consistency maybe Geryon's should also not be affected 10:07:41 <06mumra> Having two evokable musical instruments and only one is affected by silence feels inconsistent (would argue that the description also does not explicitly say that noise is NOT making the effect, and it mentions both "music" and "rhythm") 10:25:32 <12ge0ff> %git 73e103df7ed6 10:25:33 <04Cerebot> doy * 0.8.0-a0-735-g73e103df7e: don't allow blowing the horn of geryon when silenced (14 years ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/73e103df7ed6 10:25:44 <12ge0ff> ^--- it's a very old thing 10:37:19 <12ge0ff> Silence affecting musical instruments is a less surprising behaviour, so it makes sense disabling the horn and gravitambourine when silenced. Also, the descriptions could be tweaked to be more explicit about that. 10:42:44 <06dolorous_84348> It could still go the other way. What if reality itself responds to the horn and opens up portals that bring hell beasts, while the unholy noise the horn makes is just a side effect? 10:43:35 <12ge0ff> and, for the record, the player didn't know that horn can be silenced, so the "gameplay consistency" argument doesn't really work here 10:44:53 <06dolorous_84348> If evokables can be silenced, their descriptions should probably mention that explicitly. 10:45:19 <06dolorous_84348> Instead of just "I'm silenced, and suddenly this item is greyed out?" 10:50:54 <12ge0ff> The vane doesn't work if the player has -clouds status, but this restriction is not mentioned in the description. (although, -clouds is a very rare status, inflicted only (?) by servants of whispers from the Desolation) 10:51:51 <06dolorous_84348> Interesting. It should be documented somehow. 10:52:38 <12ge0ff> the ally-creating misc evokers don't work if you can't have allies, vane doesn't work if you can't make clouds, musical instruments don't work under silence - it's all kinda intuitive 10:52:44 <06mumra> Yeah I think it follows crawl's general internal consistency that anything that can be reasoned to need noise to work, does 10:54:25 <12ge0ff> when you have -clouds, the vane's description gets this line: > You can't evoke this right now: the air is too still for clouds to form. 10:54:33 <06dolorous_84348> Ah. 10:54:41 <06dolorous_84348> Good to know. 10:55:32 <12ge0ff> and the horn gets "You can't evoke this right now: you can't produce a sound!" under Silence 10:55:59 <02Monkooky> I think these first two are categorically different from the third 10:56:43 <06dolorous_84348> I think the main point of contention is that the horn of Geryon and Gell's gravitambourine aren't ordinary musical instruments, and so their magical effects may or may not be tied to their musical effects. 10:56:50 <06mumra> (Under my PR the gravitambourine got the same description as well yeah) 10:57:18 <02Monkooky> hated by all means allies are banned. the thing that makes allies is, naturally, banned. 10:57:38 <02Monkooky> There is a mechanical logic there 10:57:58 <02Monkooky> similarly, condenser vane cannot make clouds when clouds cannot exist 10:59:01 <06mumra> You could definitely argue the tambourine works by translocational magic and the sound waves are irrelevant, but i think it should still be internally consistent when dealing with magical music instruments; what's the point of it being an instrument if the instrument part of it is irrelevant? 10:59:38 <12ge0ff> and things that rely on music/noise to do their thing don't work under silence 🙂 10:59:46 <02Monkooky> However, silence has no mechanical impact on the horn of geryon- it blocks it because it's a horn; if you were to reflavour it to a magical kennel without changing the actual effect then the silence block would be nonsensical 11:00:42 <06dolorous_84348> Point, but how much of it is tied to the instrument aspect? If there were a new evokable that was a type of drum, the same issue would come up. 11:00:50 <06mumra> How can you call your dog from the kennel if you are silenced? 😂 11:00:50 <06dolorous_84348> Exactly. 11:01:05 <06mumra> (Joking, I get the point obviously) 11:01:16 <06dolorous_84348> Does silence block all sound, or just sound within your species' hearing range? 🙂 11:01:17 <02Monkooky> turn the kennel upside down and pour the dogs out 11:01:57 <06mumra> So Call Canine Familiar should work when silenced? 11:02:57 <06dolorous_84348> Depends on how it's calling them. Spells being blocked by silence is established, but if there were an evokable dog whistle, it might be different. 11:03:00 <02Monkooky> except actually it's spells, scrolls and god powers that don't work under silence. many of these you could argue don't need sound- you have to actively assume that spells need a verbal component, that you need to verbalize your prayers, etc 11:03:33 <02Monkooky> Hurl torchlight for example- blocked by silence, despite that not being fully in line with flavour 11:03:53 <06dolorous_84348> Yikes. 11:05:33 <06dolorous_84348> So Yredelemnul worshippers wouldn't be able to throw torchlight at Mennas while he does the silence thing, which means the Holy Hypocrite Gods win? Should Yredelemnul stand for that? 👹 11:06:58 <02Monkooky> (had to go double check that was true) but carving out flavour based exceptions means you can no longer describe silence in a way which is concise and unambiguous 11:09:19 <06dolorous_84348> I've noticed that lighting the torch isn't possible while silenced, either. 11:11:57 <06dolorous_84348> Although, since some monster spells are implemented as abilities and aren't affected by silence, there's already some ambiguity. 11:13:57 <02Monkooky> yeah, but at least just for monsters 11:14:24 <02Monkooky> though the state of monster silenceability is not something I'd call ideal 11:14:31 it occurs to me that verbalizing prayers doesn't match at least some religions (see https://www.sefaria.org/I_Samuel.1.13?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en) 11:15:01 <02Monkooky> it is real difficult to keep track of what is and is not silenceable 11:15:33 although that might be a balance change given how well established is e.g. silencing Brothers in Arms 11:18:00 <06dolorous_84348> "You are unable to use the Black Torch while silenced by Mennas, but you pull out your macabre finger necklace and position its finger in such a way that Mennas knows exactly what you think of him. Yredelmnul is exalted by your worship." (Kidding.) 11:21:21 <02Monkooky> it is late and I intend to sleep, but the charlatan's orb might need a different shade of evo boosting 11:24:41 <02Monkooky> +50% evocations is a little jank it turns out; it reveals some serious weaknesses in the wand power code, condenser vane straight up breaks the cloud picker at > 27 evo, and I'm not confident the scaling on other shit behaves sanely at superhigh evo 11:25:06 <02Monkooky> or, really, I'm not sure the evo scaling on anything behaves sanely 11:48:01 <12ge0ff> Also, Singing Sword can't do Sonic Wave when you're silenced. So we have two precedents of music/noise related items not working under silence! 11:50:16 <02Monkooky> singing sword also scales explicitly off noise right 11:51:37 <02Monkooky> oh wait no it's tension now, maybe always was 11:52:35 pretty sure it always was (and tension may have originally been added for it?) 12:43:59 <06pleasingfungus> we should go by whatever’s most intuitive for players - balance isn’t a major concern here. however, i have no idea what’s more intuitive 12:47:09 <06dolorous_84348> My intuition says that either musical instruments in general are affected by silence, or evokables with a musical effect are not affected by silence because the magical effects produce sound as a side effect. So either block both the horn of Geryon and Gell' 12:49:55 <06dolorous_84348> Which means I have no idea either, really. 13:26:14 <02Monkooky> I'm inclined toward neither being blocked, though not strongly. I don't really want to learn what is and isn't silenceable 13:26:58 <02Monkooky> (but also can see finding it very surprising to be able to toot your dog horn while silenced) 13:49:50 <06mumra> Can we add "Geryon toots his dog horn" in game please 13:56:38 <06mumra> I feel like small flavour-based special casings like this are very much normal in crawl and players won't be even slightly surprised by musical instruments not working when silenced, whatever their base type 13:59:37 <06mumra> And in terms of "flavour over mechnics" i think the mechanical effect is so small and rare in this case that it's worth choosing flavour 14:09:55 <06mumra> But yeah my intuition is still that the instruments should be affected by silence, especially given additional things pointed out by @ge0ff -- irrespective of other mechanics maybe not having all the exceptions you'd expect 14:11:01 <04dracoomega> For what it's worth, I didn't actually know that silence blocked evoking horn until I saw the tambourine commit, and this fact surprised me 14:11:27 <06mumra> Of course there's a really simple solution: Just make instruments into a whole new item type, and then obviously need to add a load more like Lehudib's Loot, Alistair's Axe... 14:11:29 <04dracoomega> Silence may be on a somewhat case-by-case basis for monsters, but have generally been very consistent for players, with very few exceptions 14:12:02 <04dracoomega> (I mean, the tambourine was only a tambourine because it started with 'ta', to be entirely honest >.>) 14:12:57 <06mumra> But now it's too late and the thing you unwittingly created takes on a life of its own 🙂 14:13:00 <06dolorous_84348> One other detail: if the horn of Geryon is changed to work when not silenced, the same should apply when Geryon's using it (currently, it's a vocal spell in Geryon's spell list, which I think means silence blocks it, but I'm having a hard time making sure of that). 14:13:27 <06mumra> Yes also that, and yeah that's what you assume ... 14:14:23 <04dracoomega> (For what it's worth, I never really assumed that the sound of the tambourine was the important part. You're still making vibrations and all) 14:14:37 <06mumra> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1227366079823745114/image.png?ex=662824bc&is=6615afbc&hm=4a786858b31261437bab0709388dc563382acf9c2fccdddaf147bf714c460052& 14:14:47 <06dolorous_84348> Ah. Thank you. 14:14:48 <04dracoomega> A horn calling something is arguable a more intuitive noise requirement (though I wouldn't be sad to see it usable while silenced, for consistency) 14:15:08 <04dracoomega> I mean, even demon spells can't be silenced, so demon magic items don't seem like they obviously have to be either 14:15:36 <04dracoomega> The beasts still know the horn was blown, even if the player can't hear the note 14:15:40 <06mumra> Yep I think it's easy to justify for both either way 15:36:05 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-918-g0f22ef8d61 (34) 22:35:28 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-918-g0f22ef8d61 (34) 22:58:34 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-918-g0f22ef8d61 23:13:36 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-918-g0f22ef8d61 (34) 23:55:17 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-918-g0f22ef8d61