00:32:11 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 00:32:12 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 03:31:50 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 04:07:33 <02Monkooky> thanks, this was super helpful 04:24:29 <06mumra> i have a PR with a docker container to make this slightly easier if you had any trouble running locally 04:58:49 <12ge0ff> OR you just manually install python, tornado and other things mentioned here, https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/webserver/README.md, so you can run a simple webserver locally 08:03:57 <06mumra> For the moondial evoker I came up with a slightly odd design: instead of increasing charges as usual, it progresses through "lunar phases"; new moon -> crescent moon -> half moon -> gibbous moon -> full moon. The phase affects the overall strength of the effect (specifically what % of targets on-screen will have the effect rolled, up to 100% at full moon). On evoking, all charges are used and the phase is reset to new moon. The general 08:03:57 effect of the item is to blind and/or malmutate anything in LOS with chance of effect strongly increasing with Evo -- but also blinds and irradiates the player (using new blindness mechanic). At low evo it is near useless. An alternate design would be to have a lunar phase clock independent of item charge, still progressing with XP, so the item is more or less effective at different times, and also allows using waxing/waning language in the phase 08:03:58 description which I find rather poetic. Also I think it gives the player a bit more decision making in choosing where to use the item. Using at full moon also irradiates the player more dangerously so during lesser phases it's more use softening a room up before a fight, at gibbous or full moon it is more of a last escape resort to if things are turning bad. I am not sure, does this seem like an interesting idea to pursue, or a bit of a unneccesary 08:03:58 mechanic? 08:14:54 <06dolorous_84348> How would the lunar phases be indicated? Would the player have to inspect the item every so often to see what it was, or would there be an inscription on the item that would change with the phase, or something else? 08:25:52 <06mumra> Yeah where a normal evoker shows (1/2) for the charges in the item name, instead it has (full moon) or whichever. Additionally there are console messages telling you when the phase advances (instead of messages telling you the item has charged). 09:42:25 Webtiles server stopped. 09:42:25 Webtiles server stopped. 09:52:19 <09gammafunk> Rip cko, thanks for your service 🫡 09:52:51 <09gammafunk> I need to get irc set up for cdi at some point 10:15:40 it's only just hitting me now that it's actually down for the last time. thanks everyone for your support over the last few years, staying in sync with the crawl ecosystem was completely painless 10:15:40 floraline: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them. 10:15:59 i'll report back here when the morgue files are finished copying to the archive site 10:31:04 <06mumra> I wonder if I could do something to make evoker recharge messages a bit more noticable in general by default. They're not in a special colour or anything and it's really easy to miss in the spam of a big fight. I'm always forgettting to use them because I don't even notice they're charged until i happen to go into inventory. 10:32:16 <06mumra> Maybe even a screen flash or something to get the player's attention 10:39:09 <06dolorous_84348> That could work. (Or maybe standardize the recharged messages, if needed, and add force_more prompts for them?) 10:39:26 <06dolorous_84348> But the latter would, of course, be more work. 10:39:52 <06dolorous_84348> But making such messages more noticeable is definitely a good idea. 10:41:13 <06dolorous_84348> And would the player want to, say, stop autotravel upon receiving such messages, or would it be too annoying? 10:42:23 <06dolorous_84348> So the screen flash sounds like the simpler option, since that wouldn't interrupt things all that much. 11:00:17 New branch created: pull/3758 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3758 11:00:17 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3758 * 0.32-a0-914-gecd8d6ee2f: Instruments shouldn't jingle when silenced 10(77 seconds ago, 3 files, 4+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ecd8d6ee2ffb 11:11:19 <06mumra> They don't happen on autotravel, they happen during combat, since it's all based on XP earnt 11:12:27 <06mumra> Being interrupted during combat could also be annoying but on the other hand maybe you want to know that a weapon has just come online 11:13:27 <06mumra> (Messages are already standardised, it's all in an xp_evoker_data map, so it's pretty easy to do this in one place whatever the best thing to do is) 11:22:38 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3758 * 0.32-a0-915-gdf757bd31e: Musical instruments shouldn't work silenced 10(56 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/df757bd31e07 11:36:22 <06dolorous_84348> Good to know. 11:43:40 <06pleasingfungus> floraline: thank you again very much for the years of running cko! you made many people very happy 🙂 11:45:29 <06pleasingfungus> mumra: option A sounds cute. it's basically just being able to use the evoker at less than 100% charge, with some florid wording, right? option B sounds sort of complex and fiddly - players needing to keep track of where in the cycle their evoker is. you get to add more messages which are usually irrelevant and which players will usually miss... 11:45:50 <06pleasingfungus> (or forget about by the time they're ready to evoke) 11:46:03 <06pleasingfungus> feelbad moments when you miss the 'good phase' to use the evoker in 11:48:05 <04dracoomega> The moon phase idea is interesting, but I have some concerns that if it fluctuates from stronger to weaker over time that this is going to add another element beyond just charges for the player to notice actually changing in their inventory. Is the player going to feel compelled to track whether the dial is currently becoming stronger or becoming weaker? (Some of this could be improved by having different icons for each state, I 11:48:06 suppose?) Also not sure that AoE blind/malmutate alone feels worth applying blind/contam to the player on top of the limited charges usefulness? Of course, reliable AoE blind is kind of like a potion of invis on demand... 11:48:27 <04dracoomega> Ha, similar thoughts to PF, I suppose? 11:50:18 <04dracoomega> Yes, if it just charges up, that's a lot less potentially troublesome. If it goes down again, there's potentially a lot more fiddly monitoring involved that I'm not convinced is worth it. Mildly wondering what it would be like if it just 'alternated' with each use? Though in that model, it probably can't just be 'worse' in one more or players might want to use it to get it over with? Just mildly pondering if it's interesting if an 11:50:18 evoker alternated between two (related?) effects on alternating uses? 11:54:25 hm, ??lightning rod 11:54:33 ??lightning rod 11:54:33 lightning rod[1/2]: A four charge {xp evoker} that fires a thunderbolt like a regular beam, then when evoked again fires lightning in the space between the first and second beams. Does not multizap. Does more damage the less spread there is. Accuracy on all but the first shot is absurdly high. 12:32:22 <06mumra> Yeah I think my initial instinct was right as I coded up a draft of A, the B idea was more an afterthought, but yeah it's pretty fiddly in retrospect (maybe a concept that'd work better on a deity...) @pleasingfungus Well internally there are 4 charges with some florid wording, and all charges are used up at once when evoked. And charges are slightly less expensive. So yeah same overall effect as being able to use eat less than 100%, but 12:32:22 there are discrete steps. 12:32:51 <06mumra> Was not aware of latest lightning rod mechanics tho 12:33:19 <04dracoomega> Latest? I don't think it's changed in ages 12:33:30 it changed a few times 12:33:36 but not within the past few years 12:34:31 (aside from becoming an evoker when rods in general went away) 12:37:57 <06mumra> I am really quite out of date on some things still tho 🙂 Just what sequell described there, I was not aware of a multi-charge effect 12:40:03 I think it had those mechanics for a longish time, they were just less obvious (and poorly documented in sequell) 12:40:25 the spread business was absurdly badly described for a long time 12:43:51 make it depend on real moon phases 12:45:42 * geekosaur has flashbacks to nethack 12:45:59 <02Monkooky> The spread business is still absurdly badly described 12:47:12 it's better than the original though, which was verbose and confusing 12:48:01 said something then repeated not-quite-the-same-thing with more words 14:35:06 <06mumra> An alternating item is also interesting but yeah my immediate thought is that it potentially leaves the player wanting to expend a use to get the effect that they really want, if the effects are not exactly equal in value (which is probably impossible as depending on the character build and the player, one probably always ends up being better/more interesting than the other). Not sure if it sounds like a fun mechanic for an evoker anyway. 14:35:07 Regarding the blind/contam downsides. Yeah it's a bit extreme, but "can blind everything in sight PLUS malmutate" is pretty strong. And the contam is only really serious at high power levels -- at lower (but still useful) levels it's like Irradiate or less rads. Without contam (which is admittedly not a particularly fun side effect to deal with, and used for a lot of things now), is blindness alone enough downside? For someone specialising in evo, 14:35:07 like casters, they have plenty of optoins that ignore accuracy. And the player blindness lasts strictly less time than the blindness of any targets, so you have time to get close to enemies then take advantage of their blindness when yours ends. Other things I've been mulling over are either, causing actual damage to targets (but I like the idea of an evoker that doesn't cause any damage directly) or some other effect instead of radiation (e.g. leave 14:35:08 them shining with moonlight, another halo debuff source). Or, cause a completely different effect to the caster, but I don't have an idea for it yet. 14:43:08 <04dracoomega> the contam is only really serious at high power levels A cautionary note that we generally prefer to avoid things that become meaningfully worse with investment. It seems plausible there's a point here where the blind duration is already long enough and then additional skill makes it worse to use than if you hadn't gained additional skill (since you're mostly getting additional downside). In fact, there are a bunch of effects that 14:43:09 scale with power and very deliberately don't scale the downside. someone specialising in evo, like casters While evo still affects staff damage, I'd actually say that people investing in evo are more likely to not be casters, both because they're options that work fine with heavy armour and only moderate investment, and that spellcasters can already get some of what devices offer. I mean, I don't have quantitative stats here for it, but I'd expect a 14:43:09 majority of characters with significant evo investment to be melee-slanted. (Self-blind in exchange for mass blind is still likely a net positive, of course) I agree that evokers that don't have a damage component at all is a good space for more things to exist in. 14:44:12 <04dracoomega> Actually, my first point suddenly reminds me a lot of when spell invisibility existed, where high spellpower was often just plain worse, beyond a point. It was lasting long enough to conclude a battle, but you still gained contam over a longer duration and could sometimes mutate from a single cast. Actually, this is kind of similar to spell invis in a number of ways, I suppose. 14:46:04 <04dracoomega> (As for an alternating evoker, I think even if the effects are not exactly equal in value, so long as they aren't dramatically slanted, one isn't likely to want to waste an entire charge just because it's somewhat less useful than the other charge. Turns are usually fairly cheap, and charges are much more expensive, so you'd still want to get some use out of the flip side) 14:55:27 -!- TAS-2012v is now known as TAS_2012v 15:00:27 <06mumra> You misunderstood me on "someone specialising in evo, like casters" -- i wasn't saying that casters are specialising in evo -- I was saying that evo characters are similarly able to tolerate the blindness effects as casters are 15:00:52 <06mumra> Sorry slightly ambiguous phrasing there 🙂 15:06:50 <06mumra> But yes i meant they will have various spell-like options available to them so blindness isn't as bad as primarily melee/ranged chars 15:10:39 <02Monkooky> contam is really not a good downside for this to have. I got a lot of other qualms, but this one I think I can articulate before sleep 15:11:38 <02Monkooky> <06mumra> I think contam is generally a very difficult effect here because it's not like something like Irradiate where you have multiple casts that can get you into the danger zone. You're only using the evoker once. So either it's meaningful or it's not. (Really, it's a hangover from where this started as an Alch spell, and the way the flavour is subsequently written) 15:12:06 <06mumra> Yes i was literally writing that as you said it 15:13:03 <02Monkooky> I think you're also overestimating the power of the effect in general if you're downsiding it at all 15:13:37 <02Monkooky> Blind + Malmutate if you have high evo is.... worse than killing things with tremorstones 15:14:54 <02Monkooky> there's gonna be some targets where this is significantly better, of course, but I don't think the situational disable is gonna be so much better than tremorstones that it warrants a drawback 15:15:49 <06mumra> Hmm fair enough 15:51:39 -!- robin_ is now known as robin 16:05:16 -!- nabru- is now known as nabru 18:10:05 -!- hedy is now known as hedy[t] 23:45:14 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-913-g739538afd8