00:40:19 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.32-a0-886-g41c5271027 (34) 00:40:20 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.32-a0-886-g41c5271027 (34) 00:41:30 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 00:41:30 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 01:22:00 <02Monkooky> datura- berserking yourself 01:24:21 <02Monkooky> Eringya's? Gastronomic Expanse, Eringya proliferated the spell to get others to feed their pet 03:31:10 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 03:45:20 <06mumra> Been coming up with a design for Anachrobats They're not actually a bat, it's a humanoid (or possibly human-intellect trained monkey) gymnast/wrestler wearing a harlequin-style suit, running on their hands (and sometimes on the walls and ceilings). Fast and very high EV compared to Klowns, but lower HP and AC Probably too many ability ideas here now so refinement suggestions welcome 🙂 Maybe some of these ideas could go to another new 03:45:20 monster. - Trapese Ride: monster version of Piledriver with theme change, swings you across the map into a wall, but can be done from a few tiles away - Throw Player: throws player into middle densest group of monsters visible - Switcheroo: steals a worn piece of jewellery from the player, switching it for a worthless plastic trinket. Even triggering contam, drain etc. (If we wanted to be really nasty we could replace it with a cursed item which 03:45:20 can only be uncursed via XP gain but I think it's already pretty nasty!) - Melee attacks are "wrestle" flavoured. This can trigger a variety of wrestling moves e.g.: * Wall slam (slams you into an adjacent wall, breaking it if it's rock) * Neck choke (maybe engulf + constriction) * Body slam (give you Prone status with reduced EV) * Double kick (since they walk on their hands) * Vault 05:09:34 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-886-g41c5271 (34) 05:09:42 <02Monkooky> Switcheroo sounds deeply obnoxious 05:35:40 <06mumra> Yes. Too much? 05:43:17 <02Monkooky> having to re-equip your gear post-fight sounds very annoying 05:43:58 <02Monkooky> I'm also kind of worried that it encourages weird equip-swapping behaviour to prevent bad thefts? 05:45:33 <02Monkooky> this ain't about power, to be clear- I think this ability would be middling strength most of the time- but it sounds really obnoxious to deal with 05:55:29 <06mumra> I guess another way to do it without the annoyance would be more like a temporary curse so you lose all the item's bonuses until it wears off (either over time or by XP gain). 05:58:22 <06mumra> I think that situationally it could have a significant effect though, e.g. you're relying on Wiz for your best spells, you lose your fire resist while dealing with OoFs etc 06:22:24 <02Monkooky> yeah, but I feel like other than thematics I'm not sure what benefit this has over e.g. directly giving rF- 06:54:52 New branch created: pull/3750 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3750 06:54:53 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3750 * 0.32-a0-887-g804068d6cd: Fix red draconians in dragon form having two breath abilities 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/804068d6cd49 07:05:41 <09gammafunk> A few of these ideas a retreading some old ground in terms of ideas that were actually in the game and removed. Without being overly critical, I do want to say that the ability list feels too far in the direction of whatever idea fits the notion (of an acrobat) rather than being in the direction of what ideas would make for good gameplay on a monster. With that said... 07:07:29 <09gammafunk> I think disabling/removing effects from items must be severely limited (we have it quarantined to Maurice for a reason) unless somehow you can really find good ways to justify the design. We've tried temporarily suppressing player item effects with moths of suppression, which were removed 07:08:19 <09gammafunk> But aside from a vague flavor connection of performing a kind of magic slight of hand that ability doesn't even seem closely related to the theme of the monster 07:10:10 <09gammafunk> For throwing the playing generally, this is another idea we experimented with via octopode crushers/iron giants. It was very obnoxious to get into a "throw loop" where you're trying to kill the thing with a melee attack and it keeps throwing you. I reworked the idea into the "harpoon shot" used by swamp worms and later Harold so that the player would be "pulled" to the monster, after which no further movement would happen unless the 07:10:11 player possibly moved away from the monster 07:11:12 <09gammafunk> I'm not saying any sort of player throwing won't work as there are other conditions you could add but you do have to be very careful about not creating a gameplay loop that's either unfun or that basically removes meaningful tactics (or both) 07:11:54 <02Monkooky> to be fair- this particular throw you'd be able to avoid that issue, since it necessarily needs at least one other monster in sight to throw 07:11:56 <09gammafunk> I think breaking rock walls with wall slame is just a bad idea because you're creating a monster the player will want to lure to various areas of the game 07:12:19 <09gammafunk> Maybe wall slam could work without wall breaking, but it's sounding a lot like monster force lance at this point 07:12:32 <09gammafunk> ...which...does that still exist on monsters? 07:12:37 <02Monkooky> yes 07:12:41 <09gammafunk> I seem to recall usage of that spell has changed recently 07:12:44 <02Monkooky> @?? deep elf knight 07:12:44 <04Cerebot> deep elf knight (e) | Spd: 10 | HD: 11 | HP: 44-59 | AC/EV: 1/16 | Dam: 21 | weapons, items, doors, fighter, spellcaster | Res: will(80) | Corpse | XP: 779 | Sp: throw icicle (3d20), force lance (3d14), haste, invisibility | Sz: Medium | Int: human. 07:13:02 <09gammafunk> did it get removed from a naga or something? 07:13:24 <02Monkooky> no idea 07:13:43 <09gammafunk> ok, looks like maybe just Erica lost it 07:14:01 <09gammafunk> but yeah, as Monkooky pointed out, it does still exist on monsters and there are a couple other uses of it 07:15:05 <02Monkooky> On trapeze ride, I think that ability would be very difficult to 'read'- determining where an anachrobat would take you is probably possible, but if it's nonadjacent requires some nontrivial beam tracing 07:15:35 <09gammafunk> There's another important meta question about this monster: what is the niche it's trying to fill thematically and gameplay wise? Is this a Zot monster we're adding to increase the circus theme, for example? If so, it's a fair question to ask whether we actually want to increase the prevalance of that theme. Maybe it's ok and there's a niche for a lower hp monster there, regret-index might have some good opinions on that as well 07:16:02 <09gammafunk> If you're imagining it going somewhere else, then just curious where that would be 07:18:11 <09gammafunk> Yeah, maybe that improves the design somewhat, but it depends on what you're trying to have the throw do. It wouldn't be particularly good to throw when a single (possibly trivial) destination monster is around, since it wouldn't really be increasing tension in many situations 07:18:43 <09gammafunk> You can add some complexity to the throw decision making, only doing so if there's "sufficiently" nasty monsters around, for example, but this make the ability more opaque to the player 07:18:43 <06mumra> That's the idea, it'd throw you into a group if there's one available 07:19:12 <06mumra> It's like throw ally but instead throwing the player into a melee 07:19:57 <09gammafunk> It's funny to hear you say that. Throw ally was added by msyelf precisely as "it's like monster throw player but monsters are doing it to other monsters" 07:20:35 <09gammafunk> What I'm trying to say is that we've had an ability very similar to this in the game already and it was removed for other approaches 07:21:16 <09gammafunk> although it might have been PF who made throw ally 07:21:28 <09gammafunk> just generalizing the throw player code etc 07:21:44 <09gammafunk> I think robin was actually first monster throw ally 07:21:45 <06pleasingfungus> true gamers lure deep troll earth elementalists from depths to slime:$! devs have DUMBED DOWN 07:21:58 <09gammafunk> ??sword in the stone[casual 07:21:59 <04Cerebot> I don't have a page labeled sword in the stone[casual in my learndb. 07:22:04 <09gammafunk> hrmm 07:22:10 <09gammafunk> ??the sword in the stone 07:22:10 <04Cerebot> I don't have a page labeled the_sword_in_the_stone in my learndb. 07:22:39 <09gammafunk> ??sword in stone[3 07:22:39 <04Cerebot> sword in stone[3/3]: Spectrina: they made it CASUAL 07:23:31 <06mumra> yeah i mean this originated from regret-index talking about having another circus-themed monster 07:23:38 <09gammafunk> ok, cool 07:23:56 <09gammafunk> as long as people feel the niche is there and the theme isn't going too far etc 07:24:14 <06mumra> https://discord.com/channels/735056636644687913/747522859361894521/1223026634815438888 07:24:19 <09gammafunk> There was a good deal of complaining overall about monsters throwing players in the op crusher/iron giant era, but there was a somewhat different player meta at the time as well 07:24:57 <09gammafunk> so maybe re-visiting throwing (carefully) with the right conditions could be ok, but I will tell you that it's actually non-trivial to get a player throwing thing that creates tension in the right ways most of the time 07:25:10 <09gammafunk> we also have drac shifters that convoke monsters around the player already 07:25:59 <09gammafunk> old throwing tried its best (it also liked to throw player near unexplored areas) but it was fairly aggressive allowing the monster to throw; it just used priority to try to find the best spot 07:26:22 <09gammafunk> so maybe if you combine the priority with more conditional activation it won't be so bad 07:27:22 <02Monkooky> it does overlap quite heavily with drac shifters though 07:27:28 <09gammafunk> One final note is that Prone doesn't sound like it would be a great debuff. Just removing EV isn't quite enough I think. We also have Vertigo which is doing that and other things to try to be more impactful 07:28:07 <02Monkooky> I'm generally unsure of the 'wrestle' bein a random melee thing 07:28:08 <09gammafunk> yeah they are definitely similar ideas with different approaches. I'd be inclined to think it's not necessary to have both, but we do have multiple ways of doing similar things on monsters even in the same branch 07:28:43 <02Monkooky> klown pies are pretty inscrutiable; I only know a few of the possible effects 07:29:21 <02Monkooky> and I think this would be a similar burden of knowledge without quite the same level of impact 07:45:28 <06mumra> i feel like by zot you should have enough digging wands available to not need to lure a highly dangerous zot monster around... was thinking that smashing walls in zot is frequently going to get you into more trouble 07:46:28 <06mumra> the trapese ride was intended that the monster at least lands next to you at the end of it 07:48:00 <06mumra> but yeah maybe a smaller number of effects as spells rather than a load more effects hidden in attacks is a bit less incomprehensible 07:48:24 <06pleasingfungus> do people ever lure dtems around for dig? i’m not aware of that if so 07:51:15 <02Monkooky> yeah; but figuring out where it sends you is nontrivial and, depending on how you do it, has very high or humungous variance 07:54:37 <02Monkooky> since you either have Anachrobat teleports next to you, then piledrives (if it's off-diagonal, which tile it goes to changes your resulting position massively) Anachrobat knocks you back along beam from it, then teleports adjacent (beam tracing to figure out where you land becomes hugely important in some circumstances, and can be wildly unintuitive) 07:55:22 <06mumra> does it need to be intuitive from player perspective though? or are you talking about implementation difficulty? 07:55:35 <02Monkooky> I think it does in this case 07:56:18 <02Monkooky> the player has no way to easily preview what the result is 07:56:47 <02Monkooky> However, it's deterministic- I could read the code, execute the algorithm in my head, and figure out if I need to care about the piledrive 07:57:07 <09hellmonk> It was fairly common to lure them for lrd when that broke walls, luring them to predig for orbrun is still possible but idk if anyone bothers 07:57:50 <02Monkooky> and for a reposition effect it's going to be rather important to do so far too often 07:58:40 <02Monkooky> think good, safe play around trapeze ride becomes very ponderous 08:01:08 <06mumra> hmm i see 08:04:35 <06pleasingfungus> i think i heard someone suggest they might lure a dtem to prep orbrun but i don’t believe em. people don’t even bother to prep normally usually 08:04:59 <06regret-⸸nde※> Waking up and staring at this conversation mostly just makes me think this design would just easily function as a monster with AF_CHAOS and AF_BLINK_WITH. Fits an easy niche of Zot not often emphasizing debuffs outside of Klowns and liches, gets more mileage out of the efforts to clean up chaos brand, and also reasonably repurposes a functional gimmick only used once elsewhere at the very opposite end of the game in early D. 08:05:10 <09hellmonk> yeah it is one of those things that you can do but nobody does 08:05:29 <09hellmonk> I think I have used dig wand in advance a couple times for very bad layouts 08:05:53 <09hellmonk> usually in zot 08:05:55 <02Monkooky> hm I honestly should do this 08:06:03 <06regret-⸸nde※> ??optimal 08:06:03 <04Cerebot> optimal[1/9]: what do you even mean, turn optimal? time optimal? resource optimal? safety optimal? sanity optimal? opportunity costs easily make this term mean nothing. 08:06:23 <02Monkooky> I orbrun dig all the time, and sometimes plan it out in advance 08:06:47 <02Monkooky> but for some reason??? never occured to me to dig then and there 08:07:31 <09hellmonk> well depending on terrain it can be disadvantageous to open up los in advance 08:07:37 <02Monkooky> yeah I think a much simpler design here would be better 08:07:44 <09hellmonk> esp if you also intend to passwall a lot 08:08:10 <06mumra> it really sounds like way more effort than it's worth 08:08:23 <09hellmonk> so I don't think predig entire intended orbrun path is actually that good, but I'm not really sure 08:16:47 <06mumra> i was thinking this was being used on balloon yaks 🙂 08:16:59 <06pleasingfungus> cf eg ??optimal 08:17:22 <06mumra> apparently it's AF_CHAOTIC btw, there is no AF_CHAOS (but maybe this should be renamed to be consistent with brands) 08:18:09 <06mumra> they could also be given chaos wepons (and balloon yaks drop clouds) 08:19:03 <06mumra> had the thought of a Chaos enhancer stave that only enhances chaotic spells 08:20:03 <06regret-⸸nde※> I listed off in https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hVC2U2eN8biQNSMP76UKQBvJuNlRwX7w18OEVC1rY80/edit how the rough sketch of chaos and or cloud mechanics there would slot in just as fine for Pan as it would for Zot. 08:20:07 <06pleasingfungus> did we ever rename golden dragons and gold dragon scales to be consistent 08:20:18 <06pleasingfungus> or possibly vice versa 08:21:07 <06regret-⸸nde※> This has not been done yet, no. 08:23:23 <06pleasingfungus> one of crawl’s less pointful warts 08:25:55 <06pleasingfungus> hm, skeptical about this dgmo pitch 08:26:09 New branch created: pull/3751 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3751 08:26:09 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3751 * 0.32-a0-887-gc359046372: Allow demigod monks 10(10 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c3590463729d 08:26:46 <09hellmonk> add it and add demigod piety titles for self worship 08:26:48 <09hellmonk> tbh 08:26:57 <09hellmonk> enable demigod invo skill 09:14:17 <09gammafunk> Yeah, digging for a zot monsters is definitely less of a problem; we have plenty of DTEM showing up before then. However I think breaking a single wall in zot is actually unlikely to be impactful a large majority of the time. DTEM/caco digging is impactful because it can dig many tiles at once and is effective at removing cover. 09:18:51 digging the orbrun> also AFAIK nothing is done about the incentive to take all up hatches in DUZ to shorten the orbrun route 09:22:45 <06mumra> (Well, what has kind of been done about both issues is adding gems to incentivise turncount) 09:50:19 <06pleasingfungus> gems aren't expected to be a core/standard motivation; we expect most players to care about winning primarily 09:51:52 winning> and I think Hypothetically Optimal Man should take all up hatches before the orbrun. I thought vaguely about giving the player the knowledge automatically when they pick up the Orb, but how do you communicate that? 10:11:20 New branch created: pull/3752 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3752 10:11:20 03yrdzrfxndfvh02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3752 * 0.32-a0-887-ga16ffd7ed0: add cardinal to rand_wpn 10(83 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a16ffd7ed0b6 10:16:09 <06mumra> Or, delete all up hatches when you pick up the orb 10:35:31 <06dolorous_84348> Or make Pan lords more likely to spawn near where the up hatches take you? 10:45:19 03yrdzrfxndfvh02 {dolorous} 07* 0.32-a0-887-g7c90f283a1: add cardinal to rand_wpn 10(35 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7c90f283a109 10:52:35 sigtrap (L15 FoHu) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (D (Sprint)) 10:55:30 04Build failed for 08master @ 7c90f283 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/8527150501 11:45:59 <04dracoomega> Just want to say that [Someone's] Gastronomic Expanse is a wonderful name. The idea of feeding a sweet pet Horrible Gargantuan Monstrosity also makes me smile 12:13:26 <05icoson> hm I guess ci mac python is broken in yet another way now 12:22:58 03advil02 07[ci-python-fix] * 0.32-a0-888-gc2c32a6844: build: fix macos ci? 10(37 seconds ago, 1 file, 491+ 490-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c2c32a6844e4 12:51:42 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.32-a0-888-g8ce7b1ec60: Fix: bring stray lajatangs back to the fold (Ge0ff) 10(80 seconds ago, 3 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8ce7b1ec6032 12:57:20 <12ge0ff> Thanks for fixing that, PF! 12:57:27 <12ge0ff> Are there any open source programs for editing pixel art specifically? Using GIMP or Krita to just remove a few stray pixels felt like an overkill. Any recommendations? 12:58:28 <06dolorous_84348> Kolourpaint? 12:59:06 drawing, gnome-paint, maybe krita 12:59:31 <12ge0ff> Thanks, I'll check them 13:06:24 <12ge0ff> Lol, nice description. I guess some DCSS tiles do belong to the latter category. 13:06:25 <12ge0ff> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1224812197981589635/drawing.png?ex=661eda3f&is=660c653f&hm=19d327ce6b50e3e18b629ef85095612622cf94793ffba80ed6e041ed7c38e069& 13:06:36 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-889-g7cf571d63e: Add misc colours as an option for Blork dialogue. 10(43 minutes ago, 1 file, 74+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7cf571d63ed1 13:16:04 04Build failed for 08master @ 7cf571d6 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/8528773428 13:16:05 <06pleasingfungus> my setup isn’t great for pixel art honestly; i mostly use pixelmator. historically i used pixen, which is more aimed at pixel art… but both are apple exclusive and paid, iirc, so a very poor fit for your ask :p 13:16:34 <04dracoomega> I've always used GIMP for all my work (in Crawl and in other things) 13:17:00 <06dolorous_84348> I use GIMP for the fancy stuff, and Kolourpaint for when the GIMP is too sophisticated. 13:19:25 <06dolorous_84348> In other news, if Blorkula is supposed to use all the colors of mesmerism, now the rarer ones are an option. 13:22:14 <04dracoomega> @mumra I spent some time last night trying out Ungoldify in various situations, by the way. (And also reading through the code involved). I hope this doesn't come off sounding overly critical, since I think experimenting is good, but I feel like the movement mechanic as-implemented doesn't really work very well. Not only can you not use the spell usefully in melee range of a target (already a noticeable limitation compared to many 13:22:14 offensive spells), but you can't use it against things one space away (since they will close that gap after you cast, but before you can move in their direction to fire) and you unpredictably can't use it against things even further away from you than that, if their speed lets them double-move at the wrong moment. And it feels real bad to cast a spell and then have the battle situation change such that you can't use it usefully anymore and need to let 13:22:14 it sort of 'fizzle'. (The random beams also have a high chance of being aimed at empty spaces even if you are able to fire it in the right direction. I had it completely miss an entire deep troll band multiple times. Though this is really a separate problem.) 13:24:30 <04dracoomega> One of my own working concepts for a high level alchemy spell also involved movement in an unusual way for a conjuration, though in a completely seperate manner. (I've been hashing through specifics for the spell in my head for a while and don't feel like I've quite nailed it yet, but might be getting closer) 13:27:50 <04dracoomega> Original concept was like... a magical 'solvent' that extracted materials from things it hit. Shoot an enemy with a (weak for its level, but not irrelevant) beam that left pickups on that ground that also did instant damaging effects when you collected them - player-centered AoE explosions or auto-targeting beams, etc. But of course, there's potentially a lot of complexity here (and also potential execution difficulties with needing 13:27:50 to be able to pick up things around whatever you hit), so I've tried iterating a few times on the basic concept. (The name I'd been working with for a while had been Alistair's Azoth, by the way :P) 13:30:58 <04dracoomega> Recently had been leaning towards a single type of pickup that fires a pair of auto-aimed bolts at enemies when collected. Maybe initial spellcast just creates a few of those around the player directly? Maybe killing an enemy with it creates more, so it's sort of a mana-efficient poke spell. (r-i once described it as shooting acid by playing DDR). Still not sure how this plays in practice with groups of enemies interfering with your 13:30:58 movement. Feel I'd need to go through the pair of actually implementing it to get a real sense of how well any of this works. (I just liked the alchemy flavor of extracting things and 'crafting' from materials in a very limited focused way somehow. That was part of the original starting point) 13:33:26 <04dracoomega> Way back when Alchemy was first being made, I'd toyed with a version of this as something new for the Alchemist starting book (before the sticky flame changes happened). I think it's probably an easier sell to have to run around and pick things up at that point in the game, where you're generally fighting fewer things at once and more willing to go through a few hoops to get your good damage. High level spells have a high bar of 13:33:26 'just blow things up' to compete with in other schools. 13:40:55 <04dracoomega> The other most fleshed out high-level Alchemy concept I'd been tossing around is (working title) Fulsome Fusillade. Create 3 smite-targeted AoE explosions on random enemies each turn for a few turns, split between different elements (maybe with debuffs attached?). Think somewhere between Ignition and Polar Vortex, but ideally distinct enough from either. Stronger against small-ish groups of enemies than Ignition is (since you get a 13:40:56 max of exactly 3 explosions a turn), more functional in tight spaces than Polar Vortex is, different elemental coverage. Still, a straightforward 'blow things up' kind of spell. (It also felt like a cute fit for a 3-school high level spell, which has never really existed. But if it were something like level 8 Alchemy/Fire/Ice (or even level 7) then it needs to compete more directly against Ignition and Polar Vortex and it's not clear how well it 13:40:56 would do so. Like, if you're alchemy focused during the game than maybe it's an appealing option, but if you have enough fire that you could get a little bit more to cast Ignition, what's tempting you enough about this to work even harder at other things for it?) 13:44:38 <04dracoomega> Playing with Ungoldify also made me wonder if a gold-cost attack spell (if we do indeed want one) works better at like... level ~5 or something. Make the gold cost actually relevant at a period in the game where the player still likely has other things they're interested in spending gold on, but also make it something you can 'graduate' out of using, instead of capstone-ish. So that you don't need to worry about ammo in the 13:44:38 long-term, or about your skill investment stopping being relevant. It can provide some stronger-than-similar-level-options burst in midgame and then you train past it and don't feel compelled to use it lategame? (Not sure at all. Was just something I'd been thinking about at the time) 13:48:04 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.32-a0-890-g59293ed448: Fix: catch a few more strays (Ge0ff) 10(45 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/59293ed4484b 13:52:19 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-891-gc41d80381e: Rename gui/spells/poison to gui/spells/alchemy. 10(18 minutes ago, 11 files, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c41d80381ef9 14:01:55 04Build failed for 08master @ 59293ed4 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/8529258021 15:25:58 <06mumra> Thanks for looking at it. Yeah the two main issues you raise I definitely felt in testing also. The latter (beam randomness) I thought to deal with by both a) adding a bit of weighting to the beam selection so there is a higher concentration in the center of the cone but there can still be outliers, and b) adding at least one guaranteed beam in the exact direction of movement (and otherwise it can feel very odd using it in corridors if 15:25:58 all the beams just hit the walls and hardly any shoot ahead. In terms of the movement issue maybe can be adjusted so you don't actually have to be moving into an empty space, as long it's not towards a wall; moving towards a monster is fine, and if the blast kills the monster then you will move into the space. And combining this with another thing I considered which is to make it a channeled spell except instead of sitting still you have to keep moving 15:25:59 (and keep fueling with more gold). So it becomes a bit better value for the MP cost to compete with things like ignition. Still I appreciate the point about level 8 being a very difficult place for the gold cost to be relevant (although, with the above, you could be spending 100ish gold per cast if you use a few blasts, which can certainly still be very relevant at the time you're getting a single school level 8 spell online, very dependent on 15:25:59 character, religion, what gear you've found, what is available in shops, etc). And access to (potentially) both corrosion and silver in a single cast is at least interesting in zot if it can e.g. take down OoFs quicker at close range than Ignition can. Other ideas you mention are also interesting. Fusillade has some similarities to actually a monster spell I was thinking of (for a unique coglin artificer/alchemist) called something like Arcane 15:26:00 Fletchettes. Anyway it's an experiment, will try some of the above tweaks and see how it feels 15:28:58 <04dracoomega> I'm not really convinced there's value in beam randomness being able to fire off into empty air. Like, this doesn't even seem to be specifically trying to encourage using it in corridors, since the code explicitly tries not to bias targets based on presence of walls. Is there some specific reason you want beams to be able to whiff entirely as opposed to at least being aimed at something? 15:29:31 <04dracoomega> Black draconian breath had the property of 'sometimes powerful, but prone to firing at nothing at all' and it was by far the least popular breath - and that's for something that didn't even take skill investment 15:35:59 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-891-gc41d80381e (34) 15:38:02 <06mumra> Good point, I guess I was just thinking about "you get more total damage vs crowds" (and yes was encouraging open space rather than corridors). Automatically aiming at targets within the cone indeed sounds much more useful. 15:44:43 <06mumra> And then gold spent being directly proportional to how many targets are hit is probably more satisfying for the player 15:44:50 <04dracoomega> For what it's worth, I also found it a bit odd that lead was BEAM_POISON and iron was BEAM_ACID. Regardless of randomized side-effects from these shots, it seems unintuitive that lead bullets would do 0 damage to undead or poison immune creatures (or iron do reduced damage against jellies, etc.) 15:45:49 <06mumra> Yep this was not the final the version of the actual beams, intended to make new beam types 15:46:23 <06mumra> The iron is really "oxidising iron" hence the corrosion but needs more physical damage 15:47:43 <06mumra> And lead could maybe change to some other element e.g. mercury (or just be removed and have corrosion + silver as main effects) 15:48:06 <04dracoomega> Poison stacks really do an almost irrelevantly small amount of damage by lategame, on monsters 15:49:38 <06mumra> Yes and was kinda thinking about a special kind of poisoning element that works strongly against e.g. demons, but, probably doesn't need to be good against absolutely everything 15:52:41 <04dracoomega> Honestly, with several other high-level alchemy proposals jockying for corrosion effects (such as Gastronomic Expanse), I wonder if it's fine for this to be simplified into just silver damage, which is already unique (and has the direct precious metal connection). 15:53:12 <04dracoomega> If this is already using an usual form of fuel, unusal form of aiming, and then randomization within that aimed area 15:59:49 <06mumra> It's like there's a vacuum there and people try to fill it 🙂 16:02:49 <06mumra> Improves the theme I think with just a single element (and silver is already more interesting with new chaos zot monsters) 16:02:49 <06mumra> And there is already a word for alchemical production of silver: argyropoeia 16:03:05 gesundheit 16:05:21 I like black draconian breath and Conjure Ball Lightning. Lots of explosions. 16:07:55 <04dracoomega> Well, CBL definitely hits things (whether or not they're the things one wanted it to hit ^^; ) 16:26:14 New branch created: pull/3753 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3753 16:26:14 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3753 * 0.32-a0-887-gae111327f7: Don't show MPRegen line on % screen for djinn 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 11+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ae111327f768 16:31:01 <02Monkooky> you don't get warnings for piledriving an enemy into a friend 16:37:57 <04dracoomega> Oh no 16:38:08 <04dracoomega> (Do you still get penalized for this?) 16:38:37 <04dracoomega> (Should you actually be allowed to do this at all, or should it not consider friendlies to be valid obstacles to throw things into?) 16:41:45 <02Monkooky> you do get penalized, yes 16:42:35 <02Monkooky> think it should probably be allowed and penalized, just warned 16:42:46 <02Monkooky> summons already clog things up a fair bit 16:49:43 <04dracoomega> I'll put it on the list 17:25:13 <06dolorous_84348> I had a thought. In _god_fits_artefact(), there are currently no restrictions on artefacts from Ignis, so they can be any brand. Such flexibility works for some gods (e.g. Xom has no limitations, to the chaos brand or anything else, because being restricted would be boring, and Xom is very much against boring), but, given that Ignis is the god of fire, and dying at that, would it make sense to limit weapon artefacts from Ignis to 17:25:13 the flaming brand? 17:26:11 I was thinking the logic was somewhat the opposite: Ignis is no longer strong enough to guarantee flaming brand? 17:27:22 <06dolorous_84348> Possibly, but seeing as Cinder Acolytes always start with a flaming weapon, I thought they would have enough power for that much. 17:27:39 <06dolorous_84348> Although the weapon is also damaged, so there's that. 17:28:42 right, my thought is Ignis burnt (no pun intended) a lot of its power to produce a starting weapon that ends up damaged anyway, gifts would become iffy 17:28:59 (hm, and might not even be artefacts…) 17:29:27 <06dolorous_84348> Hmmm. So banning artefacts from Ignis would be another possibility. 17:29:44 well, I was thinking they're possible but low probability 17:29:55 <06dolorous_84348> Still, it's an interesting concept. 17:33:05 might even be that getting an artefact, especially flaming, might lose you one use of an ability 17:34:59 <06pleasingfungus> i think there's a misunderstanding here 17:35:10 <06pleasingfungus> geekosaur, dolorous isn't talking about adding trog-style gifts 17:35:20 ah 17:35:36 <06pleasingfungus> dolorous is talking about a very obscure bit of randart name generation code that forbids randarts for being named after 'unfitting' gods 17:35:44 <06pleasingfungus> *from 17:35:58 okay, yeh, that changes things a bit 17:36:00 <06pleasingfungus> so you can't have an antimagic weapon of sif muna or w/e 17:36:06 <02Monkooky> so right now you can get the +0 Mace of Ignis's Wrath {freezing} 17:36:10 <06pleasingfungus> yeah 17:36:24 I'm not sure there should be any restrictions in that case, since they're all identified as "ancient" and Ignis used to be mroe powerful 17:36:34 <02Monkooky> but always flame aspected 17:36:39 yes 17:37:05 <02Monkooky> so the restriction to only naming things after Ignis if they're flaming seems reasonable to me 17:39:43 <06dolorous_84348> Okay. I figured I'd get feedback before tweaking artefact generation, even if it only has a 1 in 26 chance of coming up (since Pakellas is obviously blocked). 17:44:54 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-892-g40b700cd64: Limit Ignis' artefact weapons to flaming brand. 10(28 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/40b700cd640f 18:02:59 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-893-gf85d74f360: Ban Zin's artefacts from having the chaos brand. 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f85d74f36088 18:04:18 <06dolorous_84348> Just figured out (by tweaking brand weights to make it more common) that there was nothing blocking chaos artefacts from Zin(!). Until now. 18:05:07 <06dolorous_84348> Although that brand on artefacts is normally incredibly rare. 19:39:09 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 19:39:09 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 20:16:10 <02Monkooky> On Gastronomic Expanse, thinking about expand away vs expand radially: IN both these cases, when you cast the spell you place the center of a zone adjacent to yourself. Expand away is the option where when the zone expands, the radius increases and the center of the zone moves 1 tile away from you*. This means that expanding the zone never makes you farther from the edge*. *edge case for standing on the center Expand radially is the 20:16:10 option where the center never moves, and when the zone expands the radius of the zone simply increases. The former seems like it would be harder to parse and understand, particularly if the zone is partly 'under walls' however, it gives more freedom for the zone expansion mechanics, and reduces the odds of getting 'stuck' in the middle of a gastronomic expanse It also essentially makes the zone grow twice as fast in a particular direction, which seems 20:16:11 good 20:17:59 <02Monkooky> Oh there's also the option of giving a gastronomic expanse a fixed direction it expands in- whichever direction is away from the player when first cast. Think this might be even harder to parse though 20:21:05 <06pleasingfungus> i wonder if gastronomy should replace bog 20:21:43 <06pleasingfungus> this is the wrong question to ask 20:21:46 <06pleasingfungus> but i’m curious 20:27:16 <04dracoomega> This is probably going to be a lot less accessible, so it maybe seems a shame to parcel off that off to highest levels only. They do have a bunch of overlap, but I wouldn't immediately think 'too much'. Different damage type, different expansion mechanics, a risk/reward tradeoff that Bog doesn't have. (And even then, we're often fine with 'Spell' and 'Spell Mark 2 (with a spicy twist)' 20:28:23 <04dracoomega> I agree that radial expansion is by far the easiest to understand, but does have the downsides of the player getting further and further away from an exit no matter what they do to stay there. Not sure how hard the other alternatives are to understand; feel like this is something that probably needs actual playing around with? 20:29:19 <04dracoomega> Wait, isn't this just 'You pick a direction when the spell is first cast and it expands generally in that direction foremost, over time'? 20:29:31 <04dracoomega> If so, that doesn't seem too hard to understand at all? 20:29:43 <04dracoomega> Like a weird tidal wave, rolling out in a given direction 20:31:27 <06regret-⸸nde※> I'm vaguely tempted to note that if this overall growing terrain spell feel a little too close to Bog, there's always space for desires like "more evoker variety" (with Condenser Vane and technically Wand of Roots being the only evokers focused on damage over time) or "more invocations variety for more boring / variety-demanding gods" (though probably it's too complicated for Makhleb being aimed at simplicity, too slow for 20:31:28 Nemelex's focus on raw blasting, and would overlap with a certain Lugonu invocations plan sitting around). 20:38:14 <06pleasingfungus> to be clear, my angle wasn’t “too much overlap” but rather “here’s a spell that i see complaints about; should we replace it with this vaguely similar thing?” 20:38:25 <06pleasingfungus> but like i said, it’s the wrong question 20:38:46 <06pleasingfungus> first let’s figure out how to make gastronomy the best version of itself 20:43:04 <02Monkooky> My concern is with tracking the direction of expansion 20:43:58 <02Monkooky> like, if I save and reload and don't remember what was goin on 20:44:34 <02Monkooky> how do I figure out where the expanse is going to spread next? 20:50:54 <06pleasingfungus> i think it’s on amazon prime now 20:53:46 <04dracoomega> Color the 'frontier' of the area differently 20:54:08 <04dracoomega> ie: the edge that will be expanding 20:54:30 <04dracoomega> (Or use a feature for 'about to become acid' on the leading edges or somesuch) 20:54:48 <04dracoomega> This is possibly useful anyway 21:23:36 <02Monkooky> ok yeah that makes that clear enough 22:35:16 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-893-gf85d74f360 (34) 22:57:36 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-893-gf85d74f360 23:13:11 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-893-gf85d74f360 (34) 23:55:04 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-893-gf85d74f360