00:34:34 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.32-a0-876-gcfddb08e57 (34) 00:34:35 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.32-a0-876-gcfddb08e57 (34) 00:35:58 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 00:35:58 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 03:31:30 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 03:38:29 <12g​e0ff> Hmm, NP7 is not online, but I think he checks #c-d logs, so anyway: 03:38:44 <12g​e0ff> NormalPerson7, re: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3745. A wrong weapon colour on the HUD is not the worst thing that can be caused by that bug. 03:39:04 <12g​e0ff> You can have a completely wrong weapon on the HUD if you switch between afterfacts of the same type, e.g., art daggers or art magical staves. 03:39:26 <12g​e0ff> Like, if you equip an artefact dagger of fire which has the letter a) and you have an artefact dagger of cold on b), then swapping their letters via =iab will make the HUD show the dagger of cold, even though %, i, and w screens will correctly show that the dagger of fire is still equipped. 03:39:43 <12g​e0ff> It happens only on WebTiles, and the last time I tried to poke this bug, it looked like it was because for weapons is_equipped() sometimes gets out of sink and returns wrong values. 03:40:15 <12g​e0ff> Also, re: not being able to test the changes on WebTiles. Nowadays you can get a local WebTiles server even on Windows. Have you checked https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/webserver/README.md? 03:41:25 <12g​e0ff> (I have no idea how you've been able to do https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3727 without testing it on a local server) 04:33:47 <06m​umra> No worries. I am also finding only a little time between other stuff. Just nice to have a little creative outlet tbh 04:38:41 <06m​umra> I'm thinking to change the status light to Dazzle rather than Blind so the whole mechanic is more obvious. And then have like a 50% opacity white overlay in tiles (even have opacity varying over LOS to communicate the effect increase with distance) 04:39:19 <06m​umra> So the interesting thing is that atropa darts will of course also use the effect now 04:39:21 <06m​umra> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropa_belladonna#Toxicity 04:39:36 <06m​umra> > symptoms of belladonna poisoning include dilated pupils, sensitivity to light, blurred vision 04:39:57 <06m​umra> So it still makes sense for the dazzle effect to be caused by the darts as well 04:41:09 <06m​umra> Hmm could use a blur filter 😂 05:06:42 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-876-gcfddb08 (34) 09:13:49 ge0ff: Thank you very much. I will look into building WebTiles locally, as that will be very helpful. I thought I had figured out the cause of the weapon colour issue (namely the item information including colour is only sent to the webserver if the item has actually "changed" in some way, which didn't include equipping it). I imagine this may be 09:13:50 related to the additional issue you describe, but certainly my PR currently doesn't fix that issue, so I will look into a fix for that as well. 09:25:09 <12g​e0ff> NormalPerson7: One more thing, the weapon colour issue was introduced in d60598b1e, although this commit itself looks totally fine. 09:28:31 <12g​e0ff> (well, not really "introduced" by that commit, but more like "is a side effect of d60598b1e") 09:30:27 wouldn't surprise me if some of the tag changes affect it. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d60598b1e994#diff-4fcde6f827806983dce5ed3c5b7d0f2e6f4b64f1c29a2532f3c540779d41170aL109 looks suspicious in particular 09:32:46 I'll be honest I don't really understand what InvEntry::highlight_colour even does 09:33:01 neither does anyone else; that's kinda the point 🙂 11:34:44 update: WebTiles server was straightforward to set up, so thanks for the tip once again. The fix for this bug is incredibly simple: it turns out item information was only sent to the webserver when certain things changed - these included the base type and enchantment but not the name or brand or artefact properties or equipped status, for some 11:34:44 reason. I'm pushing a fix that sends an update when the name changes, which should include everything else anyway. 11:38:33 <04d​racoomega> For what it's worth, one specific place I'd been thinking of actually putting blind on monsters involved ink, so I'm not sure 'dazzle' covers both 'blink because dark' and 'blind because light'. The chance to wand of light was more incidental than the focus of this. 11:38:39 <04d​racoomega> Not for krakens, to be clear 11:38:51 <04d​racoomega> Their ink is probably not long for this world, alas 11:44:17 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3745 * 0.32-a0-877-g6d849cf63f: Another WebTiles weapon display fix (Ge0ff) 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 9+ 8-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6d849cf63fee 12:43:01 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> I'm 1200 words into a slow document writing up elucidations / commit message material for 10 monster changes, 6 new monsters, and 6 monster rough drafts. I'm also only just realizing that shoals skysquid both didn't make the list yet and that I don't have the requisite second home for the mechanic anywhere. Something to figure out eventually, I guess. 12:57:29 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (I wonder if I should abbreviate this into quick summaries to see if anybody else wants to do them earlier...) 12:57:50 <02M​onkooky> sure, I'm in need of a project 13:03:15 <09g​ammafunk> have you considered moon orcs 13:04:14 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> If anything, multiple notes here are to emphasize the new Beogh status of other-species orcs. 13:04:54 <09g​ammafunk> ...so moon orcs are looking closer to reality? 13:06:03 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> The exact opposite. 13:07:43 <09g​ammafunk> More seriously, since various devs are around. New CDI is basically live and will be activated in Sequell (and eventually CAO). It's at the same url of https://crawl.dcss.io/#lobby but running on the nyc datacenter DO droplet. It's using the cbr2 userdb so any existing logins on cbr2 should have a corresponding login on cdi with the same credentials. If you're a dev, please verify that you have access to your account on CDI (or 13:07:44 register one there if you didn't have a cbr2 account) so I can verify that every dev with admin rights on cdi has ownership of their account and that every dev does have admin rights 13:08:17 <09g​ammafunk> I think floraline is still planning to take CKO offline on 4/7 13:14:52 <02M​onkooky> wizmode access is not preserved for me 13:17:15 <04d​racoomega> Took me a bit to remember my password, but I seem to be logged in there now 13:17:29 <04d​racoomega> (I never had any special rights on cbr2, though) 13:17:41 <04d​racoomega> (Or any server, for that matter) 13:23:03 <09g​ammafunk> yeah sorry, dgl wizards can't really be a thing any more now that it's official, since it could lead to too many weird issues etc 13:23:54 <09g​ammafunk> ok, I can make you a dgl admin, not super relevant since cdi will attempt rebuild of trunk/experimentals every 15 minutes (as it did before) 13:28:20 <02M​onkooky> rip 13:30:28 <06p​leasingfungus> hurray, 15min rebuild servers! 13:31:31 <04d​racoomega> Very convenient for the next time I horribly break things 13:32:10 <09g​ammafunk> Oh dgl access actually helpful for backup save download too, forgot about that 13:32:52 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Logged in as indexOfRegrets on crawl.dcss.io, also never had special rights on any server or here.) 13:33:32 <09g​ammafunk> OK, can add 13:48:41 <02M​onkooky> on an entirely different topic had a thought for a spell, though it needs some serious workshopping fundamental thrust is create an area that grows as you stay in it, but you get badstuff'd for staying in it- the goal is to get a creeping growth effect without encouraging too much precasting Current specific idea is Name's Glowing Garden creates a small area (3x3?) with player on the middle of a side . in the area expands it monsters 13:48:42 in the area take irresistable dam monsters are malmutated while in the area spending time in the area contams you area expires rapidly while not in it- 20-30 auts? 13:52:37 ("Name" sounds like it should be Eringya) 13:55:30 <02M​onkooky> yeah that'd track 13:55:58 <06d​olorous_84348> Sounds interesting. 13:57:57 <04d​racoomega> I'm a bit iffy on contam as the downside, at least partially since I think that could feel really bad if the player misjudges things (ie: area grows large, contam gets too high, but then it also takes multiple turns to get outside of it and it gets even worse. High contam is also somewhat nonlinearly bad). But the basic concept of 'push your luck' as an AoE spell is interesting (and certainly we could have more area-changing 13:57:57 effects than currently exist in the game) 13:58:41 the player starts out on the edge of the area if I read that correctly, so it shouldn't be too bad? 13:59:01 <04d​racoomega> Starts, but the idea is that it keeps growing, right? 13:59:14 <04d​racoomega> So you make it grow large, and then realize it's going to take another 5 turns or more just to get outside of it or something 13:59:16 yes, but it should mean one edge is reasonably reachable\ 13:59:30 <04d​racoomega> (I'd had 'self-corrode' as a downside possibility for some alchemy spell that hadn't quite found a proper home, and I wonder about that in this context now) 13:59:36 <02M​onkooky> you have to actively grow it- but yes you could fuck yourself over 13:59:44 <06d​olorous_84348> Does it grow from the opposite edge of the one where you start? 13:59:58 <06d​olorous_84348> Or in what direction? 14:00:05 <04d​racoomega> Oh, wait, I thought it passively grew for each turn to spent inside it, not only turns you do nothing 14:00:05 <02M​onkooky> hm, the idea was radially 14:00:41 <06d​olorous_84348> So it'd get bigger and bigger, but if you stay near the edge you started at, that would be the shortest distance to get out? 14:01:00 <02M​onkooky> yes 14:01:12 right, and a cap is LoS (and probably less since you probably don't want the spelll to be too powerful) 14:01:56 <02M​onkooky> tbh I suspect if you have to . to grow it and the downside is meaningful, LOS is probably the only relevant cap 14:02:07 <02M​onkooky> but yeah this should absolutely not hit out of LOS 14:02:48 <02M​onkooky> I think passive growth would be preferable if it didn't mean you could fuck yourself over 14:03:28 <02M​onkooky> so possibly what it should do instead is passive growth but only grows away from the player 14:03:31 <04d​racoomega> (Hence something like stacking corrode, which only fucks you over in the short term rather than long term :P) 14:03:40 <04d​racoomega> As a thought, I mean 14:04:01 <02M​onkooky> yeah, there's a strong argument for that 14:04:30 <04d​racoomega> Applying acid debuff to enemies happens to also be basically the same as malmutate anyway (almost) 14:05:23 <04d​racoomega> Alchemy/Translocations. You're literally transposing the area with the digestive track of some colossal extraplanar beast >.> 14:05:23 <06d​olorous_84348> Given the radiation/mutation theme, it also sounds as though Xom would find the spell amusing. 14:05:23 <04d​racoomega> <.< 14:09:15 hmm I was looking at DCSS code, I don't see a record feature to recreate the game play to watch it, I assume this doesn't exist then?++++++++ 14:11:51 <06d​olorous_84348> If you're using console, you could probably make a ttyrec of the gameplay? But that isn't a part of DCSS. 14:25:42 with console you just run crawl piped through tee, with webtiles there's an option in the server config to record it 14:31:29 <09g​ammafunk> It's more accurate to say that webtiles is a console build that additionally outputs json to a unix domain socket for webtiles server 14:32:39 <09g​ammafunk> To disable console output you have to change your server configuration in a special way 15:21:59 so short is "external ways" no built in feature. hmm time to look at how to do this I guess. 15:30:53 crawl's ndoing it the cheaty waty. the proper way, which I think practically nobody uses, is `newterm` on a ttyrec file and output everything multiple times using `set_term` (see curses(3)) 15:31:39 and in particular newterm(3NCURSES) 15:36:48 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-876-gcfddb08e57 (34) 16:37:45 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hVC2U2eN8biQNSMP76UKQBvJuNlRwX7w18OEVC1rY80/edit Nearly 4000 words of write-up. 16:38:47 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (I just spent a bunch of hours fully wrapping this all up. I'll record this down on the github wiki later, after some more devs pick through the list.) 16:48:29 <06d​olorous_84348> I was not aware until now that Blork's rainbow suspenders were a Mork and Mindy reference. 17:01:49 <06d​olorous_84348> Also, no monster directly uses the foul flame melee attack. If shadow fiends get brought back, maybe that would fit them? 17:02:46 <06d​olorous_84348> It's supposed to be rare, but maybe shadow fiends would be rare enough? 17:02:48 <12e​bering> shadow fiends live 17:02:52 <12e​bering> just with a new name 17:03:40 <06d​olorous_84348> And the undertakers sound interesting. 17:05:46 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> One of the many entries in the document linked was about moving tzitzimimeh to holies (I'm not entirely convinced demonized deities being demons are bad when nobody has complained about Dispater or Ereshkigal in the same capacity, but holies need more attention in general, so it's an easy move on a flavour front). Shadow fiends would be easy to fit in again, but the question is more about what tzitzimitls would do seperate of 17:05:46 that. 17:06:51 <06d​olorous_84348> That is a good point. 17:06:56 <06p​leasingfungus> fewer folks alive still following ancient sumerian religion, i’m told 17:07:19 <06d​olorous_84348> Indeed, but I find religion a fascinating subject to learn about. 17:07:56 <06p​leasingfungus> not quite my point 17:08:14 <06p​leasingfungus> there isn’t really anyone around to be harmed by us demonizing sumerian or roman deities 17:08:32 <06d​olorous_84348> I figured. 17:08:39 <06p​leasingfungus> whereas i’m told a very few folks still do hold to precolumbian religious practices 17:09:40 <06d​olorous_84348> So we want to avoid stuff like Marvel Thor stepping on the toes of Norse Thor, to use an analogy? Makes sense. 17:10:05 <06d​olorous_84348> As for Sumerian stuff, I remember the story of Gilgamesh's mentioning scorpion men. 17:10:29 <06d​olorous_84348> Although I know little about them other than that. 17:18:57 <06d​olorous_84348> And they're not deities, obviously, but maybe the concept could be useful for something. 17:25:22 <06p​leasingfungus> scorpion people are great 17:25:37 <06p​leasingfungus> loved em in dark souls 2, for example 17:50:48 <09g​ammafunk> https://tenor.com/bald5.gif 18:04:58 MrSquiggles (L27 DsWn) ERROR in 'mon-cast.cc' at line 1787: Unknown monster spell 'Gell's Gravitas' cast by Canwutygu's ghost (Zig:23) 18:55:22 -!- Noisytoot is now known as Noisymeow 19:10:07 <04d​racoomega> Going to adjust Piledriver when I finally get real dev time in again (hopefully tomorrow!). Still torn between adjusting it for level 3 versus 4. I was definitely too conservative with the cooldown -move compared to initial test versions and I have been convinced by chat that it might be a good idea to at least try with no cooldown at all (and probably scaling the distant multiplier to make range 1 piledrivers a little worse). I've 19:10:08 wondered at a one turn -move afterward, but I wonder if -move is just disproportionately unpopular in general? (Some people suggested -swift instead, though I am unsure) The thing about level 3 is that it could help out Warper's weak earlygame a bit more (and Warper can certainly use help), but would likely be less appealing for other characters to pick up, and theoretically this is replacing a widely popular level 4 spell at the same time. So I'm 19:10:08 not sure. 19:11:49 -!- geekosaur is now known as mewosaur 19:38:56 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 19:38:56 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??online for instructions, ??lg / !lg for play stats | PM Sequell for long queries | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV game replays: ??footv for instructions | #crawl-dev for dev discussion, #crawl-offtopic for offtopic 19:40:15 <02M​onkooky> 1 turn -move is likely to be very obnoxious relative to the impact it has on balance 19:44:05 <02M​onkooky> Also, is it intended that you can't piledriver invisible enemies? 19:46:15 <04d​racoomega> That is the concern, yes. 19:46:44 <04d​racoomega> Probably? I mean, the targeter can't show it, and I don't like the idea of the player ending up moving in a completely different direction than they expected. 19:46:55 <04d​racoomega> Because some invisible thing was nearby 19:49:20 <02M​onkooky> Hmm, that's true. 19:49:48 <02M​onkooky> feels a bit bad when you've only got the invisible thing adjacent, but think that might be unavoicable 19:51:29 <04d​racoomega> Yeah, it's a little unfortunate, but the other option seems worse. It's probably no worse than summoner problems with invisible things. (Actually, less bad, really) 19:51:44 <09h​ellmonk> very tempting to throw out a snarky remove monster invis here 19:51:50 <09h​ellmonk> so I will 19:51:54 <04d​racoomega> As soon as I saw you typing, I knew what was coming 19:52:05 <04d​racoomega> You've made my brain start doing your work for you 😛 19:52:53 <09h​ellmonk> look I'm not saying the flavor isn't cool or it has no mechanical interest at all (maybe in 2016 I would have said that) but it does introduce problems with like half of new spell/ability designs 19:53:38 <04d​racoomega> You're not wrong, but I've always liked the flavor a lot and am used to the technical problems, I suppose? 19:57:25 <04d​racoomega> Formative memories of 2 AC deep elves being brutalized by out of depth unseen horrors in ancient times >.> 20:49:23 -!- mewosaur is now known as geekopurr 21:39:49 <06m​umra> Thanks, that's helpful context. Now I wonder if different sources of blindness should have a greater or lesser impact on accuracy, but simplicity is probably still preferred. I still feel it's not true blindness, it's more an extreme visual impairment. Maybe "Sight", "Vision", or "Eyes" as a status to indicate there is a problem area but you're not actually completely blind. Re the range reduction. I still feel that for such a significant 21:39:50 effect as "you can't see" it would seem strange that magic users are completely unaffected. Magic users still have plenty of tools they can use to manage the battlefield but it's still a tangible effect. Veh worshippers are further backed up against this. And it's fine if some spells (e.g. Olgreb's to pick one at random) can still affect full LOS, i think it should only be for spells that you have to actually aim. There's also nothing else in the game 21:39:50 that manipulates this so it seems like an interesting and unique debuff. Having said this I realised my implementation is broken in various ways as doing it in the spell_range function has affected all kinds of things that shouldn't be affected, including monster spells (but also god abilities and wands). So at very least spell_range needs an optional parameter to say whether to check the debuff, so the changes required are slightly more extensive than 21:39:51 I initially thought. I also need to make additional tweaks e.g. the to hit change isn't represented in the console while you're aiming a ranged weapon (and probably should have additional text to indicate why the chance is reduced) 21:46:17 <04d​racoomega> As you said, I didn't imagine it so much as 'you can't see at all', but rather 'you can't see very well'. It's true that's not really being blind blind, but it feels like such a common convention for RPGs to refer to it as 'blind' even if you can clearly still see at least somewhat. I do tend to think that a single level of the debuff is probably best, since its exact effect on practical to-hit rate is already sort of vague? 21:46:17 And spell range reduction certainly matters and is a potentially interesting effect. I guess I was just unsure, because even with just the same to-hit reduction we'd be giving to ranged weapons, lots of spells would still be effectively bad to cast at the edges of their range (keep in mind that, unlike ranged weapons, each shot has a significant mp cost, so you really don't want to cast them at all if they will probably miss). And, well, 21:46:18 flavor-wise it seemed fine if you could still toss a fireball 'generally over in that direction'. The player obviously isn't so visually impaired they can't manage 'the general direction' if it remains possible at all to hit things at the edge of LoS. 21:46:44 <04d​racoomega> Like, I dunno if spell range reduction makes more sense as an entirely separate debuff, or if that would be somewhat too niche? 22:03:38 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> I'd be interested in it reducing invocations (and maybe abilities?) at the same time at that point, as has come up in the past for other antimagic designs and in comparison to some of the ones that already exist somewhat overlapping for such (mp draining, silence). 22:04:02 <06m​umra> For ranged/reaching we can at least communicate the to-hit effect because we're already showing a hit percentage For spells I don't think it'd be at all practical to affect to-hits because they're part of the zap if they exist at all, the spell itself doesn't miss, it's just the damage that can miss. And we are already showing spell failure % and I wouldn't want to have to process another number. Spells also all have their own 22:04:02 idiosyncrasies so if you did something like "maybe the fireball will land on a different square if it misses" you have to special case a whole bunch of spells to handle the miss chance in a relevant way ... Range reduction is at least very easy to understand and very clearly visually represented! 22:05:48 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Spells that care about accuracy already show to-hit, though? 22:05:48 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1224223165920706650/image.png?ex=661cb5ab&is=660a40ab&hm=4ff01ed16b91f1546594abf3c08128e6a4f9e4497d4eac612bde7eb2de2c28fa& 22:07:08 <06m​umra> Oh, well I didn't see that 🙂 22:07:58 <04d​racoomega> To be clear, when I said 'toss a fireball in that general direction', I didn't mean fuzz where the fireballs lands in some fashion. I meant that the an individual tile is already 'a general direction', in terms of in-world simulationism. In the same way that a blind archer can still put a shot on a given tile (but not guarantee hitting whatever is standing inside that tile) 22:08:29 <04d​racoomega> But 'in the right tile' is already enough for the explosion to cover the rest, etc. 22:11:06 <04d​racoomega> While I did like the long-ago discusssed idea of a status effect that blocks anything that uses mp (including invocations) to make it more general, I sort of immediately shudder at the thought of trying to apply a concept of 'reduced' range to, say, Nemelex abilities >.> 22:11:23 <04d​racoomega> Or Disaster Area. Probably other things. 22:12:57 <06m​umra> Yeah i was thinking that either way it probably shouldn't affect god abilities, it's your deity aiming for you so it doesn't matter if you can't see clearly 22:53:32 <06m​umra> Ugh. Showing the correct to hit % is harder than expected because there's no defender instance in those cases to check the position (it's just your % change against that mosnter type in general). Even weirder ... in range we show a % to hit but in melee we show the % to evade ... 22:54:18 <06m​umra> Which seems like something that should be made consistent anyway? 23:19:20 <04d​racoomega> It's also unfortunate that the code used to calculate formulas for display is separate from the code used to actually perform to-hit stuff, and there's always the risk of them not matching each other 23:19:30 <04d​racoomega> If any additional cases are added or things changed 23:37:47 <06m​umra> Yep. In this case the display code also needs to know about blindness now a well. 23:46:31 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-876-gcfddb08e57