00:49:14 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.32-a0-868-g153ae1a8d6 (34) 00:49:15 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.32-a0-868-g153ae1a8d6 (34) 00:53:30 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 00:53:31 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 00:55:03 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-868-g153ae1a8d6 04:32:32 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 05:15:58 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-868-g153ae1a (34) 05:16:51 I know improving the A screen for forms was discussed recently. There are several things not currently displayed on there that probably ought to be: most statue/dragon/death/storm/serpent form resistances, serpent form cold-bloodedness/amphibiousness, storm/death form active abilities, and potentially talisman artefact properties; bad forms don't 05:16:52 have an A! screen and mostly don't show unarmed penalties/buffs anywhere other than ?/t. 05:17:56 I wanted to ask: would people prefer the A! "form properties" screen were expanded to include these things, or should they be listed on the main A screen? (my instinct is to put resistances exclusively on A!, list other abilities elsewhere but I'm also conscious that A! is slightly obscure and not immediately obvious when you press A) 05:18:09 also, sidenote: it is currently the case that transforming into a bad form, e.g. via !lig, while using an artefact talisman keeps the talisman's artefact properties, which I presume isn't intended 05:44:59 also on an unrelated note, now that monk has its own unique set of starting equipment, should demigod monk still be a forbidden combo? 06:13:33 <05icoson> I am somewhat out of the loop probably, but what is the A! screen? I'm not seeing this on any of the forms I just checked 06:15:14 <03wheals> do vampires still have it? 06:15:51 <05icoson> ah yes vampires do have a secondary screen for blood properties 06:16:41 <05icoson> that's just informational though 06:16:52 <05icoson> in that it doesn't reflect the player's current status at all 06:21:03 <05icoson> NormalPerson7: I'm also not seeing quite what you're describing, e.g. snake form does show amphibiousness (but doesn't have any way of finding out what that entails) 06:24:06 <12ge0ff> The A!, Form Properties, screen appears only if you enter a form via a talisman. Changing form via the &p command doesn't add this second page to A, for some reason 06:24:46 <05icoson> I see 06:25:01 <05icoson> yeah, I see the code for this page 06:25:06 <05icoson> that seems buggy (though wizmode-level buggy) 06:26:21 <05icoson> well, I guess it's showing item-specific properties 06:27:45 <05icoson> ok, now that I see this, I'm not sure it's ideal that this be expanded 06:28:48 <05icoson> specifically: if there's a resistance of the kind that would ever show up on the main A screen, it should always show up there (and may or may not be on the secondary screen) 06:30:04 ok so you think we should add: death form rC+, rN+++; statue form rN+, rElec; whatever resistances storm form has, serpent form rPois, dragon form rPois, rF++, rC- to the A screen? I can get behind that 06:30:57 I suspect the reason this hasn't been done before is that it's going to be pretty ugly to make this work around species' existing resistances mutations (although aren't most of them melded anyway?) 06:32:25 <05icoson> hmm, the implementation of this second screen as a menu is probably generally not ideal 🙂 06:33:19 <05icoson> something is generally pretty broken here 06:33:55 <05icoson> when I access serpent form via &p it shows different muts (more correct ones) than when I access it via a talisman 06:34:08 <05icoson> e.g. &p shows amphibious, the talisman does not? 06:34:27 oh so it does, weird 06:35:20 MrSquiggles (L19 DsWn) ERROR in 'mon-cast.cc' at line 1787: Unknown monster spell 'Gell's Gravitas' cast by ForkInBrain's ghost (Elf:2) 06:35:22 <05icoson> so fixing this may be a good starting point, possibly all of the forms have at least some missing form properties (I guess it's also possible that some of what &p is showing is innacurate? I am not fully up on talismans) 06:39:39 <12ge0ff> yeah, &p still has Appendages, Spider, and Hydra forms, which didn't get talismans in the forms reform and were removed 06:42:18 <05icoson> ah &p itself will just have any forms that still exist in code (which those do) 06:42:28 <05icoson> I mean the form mutations shown when triggering a form that way 06:49:24 <12ge0ff> Nice: entering Statue form via a talisman and then activating it again via &p prints "You extend your transformation's duration." 06:59:36 <05icoson> I might suggest renaming that subscreen to "Talisman effects" , which would make it clearer why it doesn't appear for badforms 07:27:17 <06mumra> Made a quick prototype of the Ungoldify spell. Seems really fun to play with. The move-and-fire mechanic is fun enough that it can be a interesting spell without the gold cost, so it can be reflavoured if the cost is too offputting or just irrelevant, I've gone with around average 10 coins per cast (randomised, rising with spell power, but each coin gives you an extra beam). Good synergy with rampage, translocations, anything that 07:27:17 manipulates the space. You need room to move but you also want to be as close to stuff as possible when it triggers for maximum effect as the cone is a random spread of beams, meaning nearby enemies get hit with more beams. 07:28:18 <06mumra> Considering doing something similar to channeled spells but with movement instead. So you cast it once then every time you move it fires for a few turns, costing more gold each time 07:46:06 <03wheals> maybe instead of a separate screen the form properties should appear below the main mutation list? that way we don't have to worry about syncing up what things should appear on the main screen or not 07:46:32 <03wheals> and except in really exceptional circumstances, scrolling shouldn't be necessary 08:40:58 <05icoson> it's maybe a bit tricky, because the main A menu is really structured as a menu where you can select items to view the details (and it happens that not everything is selectable), whereas what I was seeing on the cases I checked A! is much closer to an item description hacked to display in a menu form 08:41:16 <05icoson> menus aren't really very good for doing that at all, but someone had already hacked the vp info to display there 08:41:27 <05icoson> so I guess it got generalized 08:47:21 I don't think the circumstances for scrolling on A will be that exceptional 11:01:29 OOFs and company are appropriately dangerous for the final level but they don't have that final boss energy 11:01:42 Final fight against ZOT in Zot 5 when 11:02:49 Or even better on orb run D:1 11:24:37 <06mumra> It'd be cool if the dungeon was kinda collapsing around you 11:27:13 It's a load bearing ORB! 11:30:43 When I die I want Gell's Gravitas to lower me to my grave so it can let me down one last time 11:33:24 <06dolorous_84348> "Wait, if this orb is the real orb, why is the dungeon still standing?" says adventurer with the Charlatan's Orb. 11:54:25 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-869-gf73ac73325: Remove Gell's Gravitas from players/monsters 10(19 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f73ac7332549 12:14:15 <02Monkooky> the gravitambourine is kind of insanely strong 12:14:59 <02Monkooky> it's sort of like a recharging scroll of butterflies 12:20:48 <04dracoomega> The radius scales quite strongly with evo. It's very possible it starts off too good in that regard. (I did like the idea of more evokers where you really feel actually pumping evo vs. not) 12:21:28 <04dracoomega> (I do find it kind of amusing that lici specifically used save upgrading to get an infinitely reusable version of the spell and didn't actually think that was wildly OP somehow) 12:26:48 <04dracoomega> Also, surely it's weaker than ?butterflies by only working on one side of you at a time and not creating chump blockers? (Though 'wind blast on a stick' had been a thought for a revived fan of gales...) 12:29:24 <02Monkooky> It doesn't create chump blockers, but it does root 12:30:46 <02Monkooky> And yeah, it doesn't do as well when fully surrounded, but I've used it to get space like 8 times this run 12:31:00 <02Monkooky> (I did pump a fair bit of evocations, mind) 12:31:31 <06pleasingfungus> coglin is cheating :p 12:32:43 <02Monkooky> I do have +3 evo it's true 12:32:48 <04dracoomega> I mean, 'using it for an intended purpose 8 times in a run' doesn't intrinsically sound OP so much as 'useful' for an evoker one has invested in a bit. (Obviously there are various numbers that can be nudged down, regardless) 12:33:20 <04dracoomega> Like, maybe the root could be a lot briefer. (It needs a tiny bit, if only just to get a shot at them all clumped up) 12:33:30 <02Monkooky> yeah it probably should be 12:34:48 <02Monkooky> and yeah you can frame it as 'using it for an intended purpose' but if that intended purpose is 'not die even though I've been playing like an idiot and the only other thing that could save me is a blink' 12:34:57 <04dracoomega> (How much evo did you have, out of curiousity?) 12:35:07 <02Monkooky> currently at 15 12:35:11 <02Monkooky> was very strong at 10 12:36:07 <04dracoomega> (It could maybe use non-linear scaling on radius size, honestly) 12:36:17 <04dracoomega> The AoE size is a huge part of how strong it is 12:36:46 <04dracoomega> Which is intentional, but I wasn't sure the balance of it feeling too piddly at 0 evo and then people not wanting to invest in it 12:36:59 <04dracoomega> Even if investing in it would be strong 12:37:21 <02Monkooky> I mean, it shouldn't singlehandedly motivate evo 12:38:05 <02Monkooky> but also I think it's gonna be extremely useful at 1 aoe 1 turn root 12:38:06 <04dracoomega> Well, more like: I have wondered in general if too many evokers are still too useful at 0 evo. And rather than a grab-bag of general mild tools anyone can use, if it would be better if it felt like making them good did ask for some investment, but that investment was rewarded fairly obviously. 12:39:01 <04dracoomega> Not tambourine-specific here 12:39:32 <04dracoomega> Like, they all scale, but a bunch of them feel 'good enough' at their role with very little investment at present? 12:39:44 <04dracoomega> And I'm not certain if that is ideal, tbh 12:40:39 <06regret-⸸nde※> Phial and Lightning Rod are the obvious concern points at 0 evo compared to the rest, I'd say. 12:42:11 <02Monkooky> yeah, tremorstones does anything at 0 evo but it's not much, and vane does astonishingly little at 0 evo 12:42:27 <02Monkooky> oh mirror is also still fantastic at 0 evo 12:42:31 <04dracoomega> Yeah, was going to say 12:42:42 <04dracoomega> Like, phantom mirror already feel very strong at 0 12:42:57 <04dracoomega> (And it's in every game!) 12:44:06 <04dracoomega> Like, sure, it lasts less time and technically has lower HD than if you had more evo, but it still is a huge power spike on demand and is plenty capable of doing its job as-is 12:45:19 <04dracoomega> (Like, I'm not sure what I'd even consider an 'idea' balance point for any of this, since obviously investing hugely into evo doesn't really work in this system either - there's just not enough gas in total for that to work - and thus we can't expect people to skill it like they would a magic school. And having a grab-bag of minor tools has its appeal as well. But I just wonder if it would be a net positive if things could be shifted 12:45:19 a bit more in that direction?) 12:45:27 <06regret-⸸nde※> Would also be good for reducing inventory pressure concerns if less species wouldn't always carry Phial / Rod / Mirror. 12:46:23 <04dracoomega> Not sure how achievable that is unless they did almost literally nothing at 0, though 12:46:55 <04dracoomega> (I mean, I still carry around a ton of wands lategame that realistically I almost never actually use. But I could >.>) 12:55:08 <04dracoomega> Suddenly contemplating the wild thought of evokers having 'minimum skill' in a similar way that talismans do. So that, say, your character couldn't figure out how to properly use a phantom mirror at all until 9 evo (or some other arbitrary number). Wouldn't even have to be the same number for each evoker, as a way of balancing weaker/stronger effects (or just 'effects that are hard to downscale properly'). So some things are easy 12:55:08 to use, and some tools are more powerful but require actual investment to use. I don't know all the ramifications of this (and I can see several vectors of opposition), but just suddenly curious how the system would play with some rejiggering along these lines (and a little rescaling + additional evokers for a wider pool of randomization) 13:01:46 <06regret-⸸nde※> https://discord.com/channels/205277826788622337/205316046230388737/1222989466751336549 (Just pondering now about five or so XL-scaling monster lists for Fire / Cold / Electricity / Poison / Draining, then Xom granting a buff and a temporary corresponding-brand weapon gift that'd makes dealing that element of damage summon short duration mostly-dead allies from that list. Like, a fire buff that summons across the game e.g. 13:01:47 bombardier beetles, pyromancers, efreets, fire crabs, red draconians, salamander tyrants...) 13:04:00 <06regret-⸸nde※> (If damage tracking that way is too difficult in crawl, the corresponding spell schools or weapon brands would probably be fine?) 13:08:51 <06pleasingfungus> seems like a nontrivial amount of work, but maybe? 13:12:46 <06regret-⸸nde※> Xom has felt like they've needed a lot of love after the miscast simplification, but also bothering with giving Xom much more is a super low priority since few people want to play Xom and the people who play Xom are amused by whatever's still randomly around. The chaos rework helped a bit, at least, but that was also meant in part to make chaos brand more usable outside of, like, three monsters. 13:13:48 <06pleasingfungus> seems like there's a ton that could be done to make xom more interesting, but i have a hard time motivating myself to work on any of it, since... xom 13:14:05 <06pleasingfungus> but i do approve of spicier xom! 13:17:08 <06pleasingfungus> reposting my current xom ideas list for reference (many of these borrowed from others) - retile player - retitle player - set los to 0 or 1 briefly - force you into a Duel and bet on who’ll win - gift weapon/armour renames (voulge etc), or rename held weps - plop out pog entrances - gift talismans - goodpoly - gift minimanuals (~50 xp) (hellmonk) - player clones (maybe en masse with reduced HD/dam/etc, to differentiate from 13:17:12 nem/mara) - temp +10 all stats - give you a rudely named randart that’s worse than your current gear in some way 13:18:10 <06regret-⸸nde※> My single highest priority Xom would be for remaking and scaling the hostile / allied summons list to scale with the whole game. Makes it so Xom's not killing pre-Lair non-felids constantly or boring lair-branch characters constantly would at least make it a lot more attractive to more players. Also would allow flashiness to brag about with e.g. radroach / OCS / apocalypse crab / hellephant allies. 13:18:40 <06mumra> > Suddenly contemplating the wild thought of evokers having 'minimum skill' Was reading along the thread and arrived at that same thought literally one line before you said it 13:18:41 <09hellmonk> Did I ever pitch the xom fake summons idea 13:19:02 <06pleasingfungus> that sounds very funny 13:19:03 <09hellmonk> Xom should be able to summon stuff but it has like a 2 turn duration 13:19:11 <09hellmonk> but it looks like regular xom summon 13:19:22 <06pleasingfungus> oh i was imagining like. mimic summons. whenever they'd attack / cast / be attacked, they vanish 13:19:41 <06regret-⸸nde※> MONS_RAKSHASA_FAKE finally getting in again, I see. 13:22:12 <02Monkooky> is there any way to improve the tabfeel of jumping spiders 13:22:53 <02Monkooky> trying to melee a single jumping spider is lot more frustrating than interesting 14:08:28 JettDanger (L16 CoBe) ERROR in 'mon-cast.cc' at line 1789: Unknown monster spell 'Gell's Gravitas' cast by Daeqyi's ghost (Swamp:1) 14:16:15 <09gammafunk> oh, I remember my chaos thought from the other day 14:16:43 <09gammafunk> now that chaos is been reworked to have more sane results so that a player could reasonable take chaos melee without worrying about e.g. para or banish 14:16:58 <09gammafunk> we could probably ditch the +12 klown clubs and just give them af_chaos? 14:17:11 <09gammafunk> is af_chaos more safe to give monsters these days, basically 14:17:41 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-870-g877066f4b4: Add foul flame to _chaos_beam_flavour(). 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/877066f4b40c 14:19:27 <09gammafunk> I think the original af_klown was just trying to be chaos-lite (relative to chaos at the time) so that killer klowns weren't something you had to prioritize with ranged so much of the time 14:19:40 <09gammafunk> but I haven't looked at the commit that added them 14:37:52 <06dolorous_84348> All the talk of chaos reminded me that the chaos effect lists are supposed to be unified (as far as they can be without osme reworking; the chaos cloud effects have things the attacks and beams don't) and I forgot the foul flame case. Until now. 14:38:17 <06dolorous_84348> Although would unifying them require adding beam and attack types for some of the effects? 14:42:33 Gell's Gravitas was removed? Feb 11 21:18:13 gell's gravitas is a key aspect of the iconic "gell's mage" build and cannot be removed. 14:44:33 <06dolorous_84348> It's been replaced with the Gell's Gavotte spell, and the Gell's Gravitambourine evocable. Gell's mage builds are still possible. 14:49:05 <04dracoomega> My brief thoughts here are that the +12 clubs are kind of funny, and also klown pies are already a significant number of random effects to know on a monster and that klowns don't really need more of them than that 14:49:10 <06regret-⸸nde※> I'm also wary about giving the very bulky and fast monsters that vitrify / silence at ranged access to melee that petrifies / slows / sleeps. 14:49:20 <04dracoomega> Even though AF_CHAOS is probably more safe to give to other things with simpler designs otherwise? 14:51:13 <06regret-⸸nde※> I'd be up for a different circus-themed Zot monster without so much health or other debuff access that mostly focuses on using AF_CHAOS, though, sure. Reminded of bcadrencrawl having Zot balloon dogs that windblast and distribute random clouds around on death, though I'm not fond of the dog part since the h glyph is so full. Maybe balloon yaks?.... 14:53:01 <06dolorous_84348> Balloon yaks sound totally awesome. 15:09:41 <06mumra> i thought how circuses have acrobats, then i thought killer klowns have funny name, then i thought of anachrobats 15:11:39 <02Monkooky> I agree re:club funny 15:11:58 <02Monkooky> also anachrobats is fantastic ship it 15:14:53 <06mumra> high EV, low health, batlike movement 15:28:57 <09hellmonk> They need to send you to an older version on hit 15:35:53 <02Monkooky> simultaneously add anarchobats 15:36:01 <02Monkooky> similar but not quite identical tile 15:39:17 <04dracoomega> Zot political compass memes 15:47:50 New branch created: pull/3741 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3741 15:47:51 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3741 * 0.32-a0-862-gbe2049ca59: Draft: Alistair's Ungoldify (new level 8 Alchemy spell) 10(6 minutes ago, 21 files, 284+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/be2049ca591f 15:48:28 <06mumra> ^ i did a thing 15:51:02 <09hellmonk> death cobs are authleft, orb guardians are authright, draconian bands are libleft, orbs of fire are libright. I will not be taking questions at this time. 15:54:20 <06pleasingfungus> into it 15:54:55 <06pleasingfungus> might swap oofs for klowns 15:55:11 <09hellmonk> oofs are the easiest zot monster to gozag bribe 16:06:25 ongoing (L14 DrCj) ERROR in 'mon-cast.cc' at line 1787: Unknown monster spell 'Gell's Gravitas' cast by anet's ghost (Lair:1) 16:06:56 03mumra02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3741 * 0.32-a0-863-gb9a50c2e69: Fix checkwhite 10(77 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b9a50c2e693b 16:08:21 ongoing (L14 DrCj) ERROR in 'mon-cast.cc' at line 1787: Unknown monster spell 'Gell's Gravitas' cast by anet's ghost (Lair:1) 16:09:53 also add arachnobats for spider 16:36:26 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-870-g877066f4b4 (34) 17:07:55 -!- Loggers_VIII16 is now known as log 17:10:29 -!- log is now known as Loggers_VIII 19:45:10 <06dolorous_84348> For the record, anachrobats also sound totally awesome. 20:26:30 <09gammafunk> it could never work to have a variety of weird and obscure bats in dcss 20:32:36 <06pleasingfungus> not a ghostface of a chance… 22:15:55 -!- daethoven80 is now known as daethoven 22:19:34 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-871-ge202e49faa: Rename obsolete tile refs to Poisonous Vapours. 10(36 minutes ago, 4 files, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e202e49faa2d 23:23:08 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-871-ge202e49faa (34) 23:35:27 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-871-ge202e49faa (34) 23:58:38 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-871-ge202e49faa