00:55:30 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-859-gb0a091d592 01:04:28 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.32-a0-859-gb0a091d592 (34) 01:04:29 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.32-a0-859-gb0a091d592 (34) 01:06:11 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 01:06:11 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 01:39:44 Fork (stoatsoup) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-s2-405-g6cba9e1cb6 01:39:44 Fork (stoatsoup) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-s2-405-g6cba9e1cb6 04:32:04 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5186-gbdc6987af4 05:30:40 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-859-gb0a091d (34) 05:50:29 New branch created: pull/3736 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3736 05:50:29 03yrdzrfxndfvh02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3736 * 0.32-a0-843-g6df8145437: add Charlatan's Orb to shop of orbs 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6df81454372e 05:54:13 hey is there a separate discord channel now for dev chat? 05:55:38 i ended up working on a new spell and i implemented it to test but wanting to run it past some people 07:02:35 <09gammafunk> mumra: I DMed you an invite 07:06:51 <09gammafunk> (on discord) 07:38:03 <06mumra> oh hi there! 👋 07:55:26 <06mumra> As i mentioned I started working on a spell. Actually there are 2 spells i have designs for now, but one of them I've done a basic implementation that still needs a bunch of refinement but the idea is working. 07:56:08 <06mumra> Maybe best to post in game description: Lunar Fissure (Lvl 9 Alchemy/Translocations) There are some these days who claim that the Moon is merely a lump of rock orbiting the sky! As any mage knows, she is in fact an even mix of both rock and condensed pure magical energy, which sustains her solemn glow. For one skilled enough it is possible to displace a fragment of the Moon into one's own hand and then, through transmutation, to rip 07:56:08 asunder the very bonds that bind this matter together, unleashing in the process a monstrous surge of magical energy and moonlight. Anything in sight will be blinded, including the caster, whose line of sight will be reduced to zero for a short number of turns; as well as receving a heavy dose of contamination. While blinded it is not possible to read or aim, and you will be unable to blink, but you are able to move freely and perform most other 07:56:09 actions. 07:57:53 <06mumra> Intended as a high level escape spell shutting down smiters and ranged attacks, clearing the floor a bit, and giving you a few turns to do something life saving, but badly contaminating you in the process 07:58:25 <06mumra> So using this to generally kill stuff would be a really bad idea 08:00:57 New branch created: pull/3738 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3738 08:00:58 03NormalPerson702 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3738 * 0.32-a0-860-gd4481ba789: Add damage to ability descriptions 10(19 minutes ago, 9 files, 252+ 42-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d4481ba789cf 08:04:35 <06mumra> While I was tinkering with this I stumbled on @gammafunk 's moon base, I had no idea it existed; and of course the book of the moon. But I'd written that first paragraph of the spell description BEFORE i read the descriptions of either of those; > Lehudib, who penned many writings on earth magic, eventually tired of > studying this world and sought to uncover the secrets of our moon. After > arriving there through unknown means, the 08:04:35 wizard carved out a fortress on the > moon's surface > A book written by a mad wizard, who had become convinced that the moon far above > was composed, not of shining light, but of rock as solid as that beneath one's feet. 08:05:13 <06mumra> So it really weirdly fits right into the lore, and maybe should be a Lehudib spell 09:00:47 <09gammafunk> Yes, although my lore there may have been edited! I shall investigate further..I myself may be the culprit. I wrote that secret lore for the moon base back when I added the map. The book of the Moon came later, I believe when PleasingFungus reworked spell books to be smaller and made several new books. He probably penned the book of the Moon lore at that time. Certainly possible to have another Lehudib spell as we probably have too 09:00:47 many mysterious earth mages at this point 09:01:41 <09gammafunk> The moon base lore is hidden away in DES as there's no real way to describe these maps in game. Maybe we'll add something like that some day. 09:17:05 <06pleasingfungus> assume this means that wand of light would be changed to blind players instead of confusing them? 09:17:31 <06pleasingfungus> ‘unable to blink’ seems redundant 09:18:18 <06pleasingfungus> hm, actually not sure that changing wand of light’s effect would be wise… but weird if blinding effects work differently from different sources 09:19:27 <06pleasingfungus> seems like a powerful effect, but not sure it’s a level 9? feels like dj getting it would be disappointed, and almost no one else would spend the massive xp needed to get a L9 alch/tloc spell running 09:19:37 <06pleasingfungus> might be better as an evocable 09:23:15 <03wheals> can a cao admin manually trigger a trunk save backup for wwf? (https://github.com/crawl/crawl/issues/3728) they say they can't ssh in to make one 09:23:25 <03wheals> i have no idea if that's a thing that admins can do or not 09:26:47 <06pleasingfungus> you need an extremely strong effect to justify a L9 alch OR tloc, in terms of player skilling - just a massive investment with little up front reward 09:27:27 <06pleasingfungus> and l9 alch/tloc is probably just impossible to justify for anyone but dj and memers 09:28:48 <06pleasingfungus> could be wrong, just my take 09:29:39 <03wheals> actually save backup might not be necessary -- just realized what the issue is 09:36:09 <06pleasingfungus> looking at the spell pitch more, it’s not clear to me why tloc is involved. the effects don’t feel tloc related at all. just trying for two birds with one stone? (l9s in two schools without em?) 09:38:40 <06pleasingfungus> making the spell alchemy only would help re training requirements, though it’d still be extremely expensive. i have mixed feelings about high level escape spells, like ddoor or borj 09:39:12 <06pleasingfungus> you spend a ton of xp on giving yourself the ability to cast a spell you hardly ever use 09:39:43 <06pleasingfungus> it’s design space, for sure, but i’m not sure it brings joy to players 09:39:47 it's tloc because it's taking stuff from the moon 09:40:00 <06pleasingfungus> that’s not a good reason :p 09:41:39 <06pleasingfungus> @dolorous_84348 lol, good bug 09:41:48 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-860-ge9ae430426: Allow memorising Piledriver v/no targets (#3737). 10(32 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e9ae43042689 09:42:49 <06pleasingfungus> actually interesting to compare this to ddoor 09:43:22 <06pleasingfungus> you’re approximately invincible in this, like in ddoor - almost nothing can hurt you with 0 los 09:43:37 <06pleasingfungus> (barring clouds, poison, sticky flame etc) 09:44:12 <06pleasingfungus> unlike ddoor, you can recast after it expires - heavy contam is too soft a constraint to block you if you really need the effect 09:44:21 <06pleasingfungus> could just recast repeatedly to orb ninja, for example 09:49:07 <06pleasingfungus> ddoor puts you to very low hp, so there’s pressure - you realllly want to be away from enemies when ddoor is over. lunar does the opposite - you can exit the effect at full hp and with enemies blind 09:52:15 <06pleasingfungus> main disadvantage of lunar vs ddoor, other than schools, is being harder to kill enemies - though you can get around that w some effects, eg fireball 09:57:33 <09gammafunk> I or advil can, but I won't have time until a couple hours for now. Do they need a backup or a fix? Reading the bug report, it looks like their game might need a full save cleanup (e.g. edit to move the player away from water) 10:00:43 <06pleasingfungus> having said all that, my current feeling is that this lunar effect could be ‘balanced’ with some work, but i’m not sure that it could be made ‘fun’. @mumra see feedback starting at https://discord.com/channels/735056636644687913/747522859361894521/1222580161224900630 10:01:04 <03wheals> nah, the problem isn't actually the water, it's that it's removing flight before the terrain is loaded, so it checks and finds bad data 10:01:22 <03wheals> just need to move the check for old coglins to the end of loading the terrain 10:01:37 <03wheals> they'll fall into water, but emergency flight will activate 10:01:42 <09gammafunk> I mean, don't they need a save edit regardless? 10:01:58 <03wheals> no, moving the code should be good enough 10:02:27 <09gammafunk> So you just need a backup to diagnose 10:02:32 <09gammafunk> ? 10:03:10 <09gammafunk> If you know how to fix and push a fix, all it takes is a rebuild 10:03:18 <09gammafunk> Not a save backup 10:14:15 <03wheals> yeah, at first i wanted the backup because i couldn't figure out what was happening 10:14:23 <03wheals> now i don't think i need it but it wouldn't hurt 10:44:26 <06mumra> @pleasingfungus Most of your points are similar to how i was thinking at this point, at couple of clarifications; - Monster version of lunar still just confuses player like other sources of blindness vs player. Because of the reciprocal nature of LOS it only makes sense mechanically to have it if everything in the room is blind - My initial design didn't have the whole Moon theme going on and the "dual school" thinking was that you are 10:44:27 using Tloc to actually perform magical atom splitting (which is what this is meant to be) and your Alch knowledge to actually understand how matter is composed in order to be able to do that. It'd feel a shame to lose the moon theme though. - Did think about the effect being an evokable Moon Rock or such if it can't work as a spell - -Blink is really because blink is useless with 0 LOS because there are no valid squares to blink to. But many other 10:44:27 spells are useless as well so yeah it doesn't need that especially. - I thought about preventing the spell also if you are too contaminated, so you couldn't ninja stuff, you'd have to rest off the contam after a single casting - Zero LOS is definitely not making you invincible -- shuts down a lot of threats but in testing you are still getting attacked in melee even though you are blind. Was also going to experiment with low-but-non-zero LOS so you 10:44:28 still have to deal with threats nearby (but are more able to do so), while still achieving the very strong effect of shutting down a lot of ranged threats. Just went with the extreme version first to see what it looked like but honestly it does make the interface feel really weird! - And the inital blast can do a lot of damage in of itself and the effect maybe needs a new enchantment for monsters rather than reusing blindness or malmutate (which I 10:44:28 didn't apply yet but it seems weird for the player to get so heavily radiated and nothing else in the room) 10:48:23 <09gammafunk> Cool, will make it for you in a couple hours unless you push a fix or tell me otherwise 11:00:39 <06regret-⸸nde※> Some mildy amusement that I was just discussing with Draco as we were waking up about level 7 and 8 alchemy spells, where nearly every one of them was essentially jut damage focused. 11:08:19 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Extremely shrinking LOS to 1 before gradually expanding again was the rough idea for replacing the immense complexity of Shadow Form in the now-delayed but still-upcoming Dith reform. I'd probably agree that extremely high-level weird utility is in a very awkward spot to press much further; Death's Door is mostly an adjunct to getting Infestation operational and is almost never cast regardless, and Disjunction is much more 11:08:19 direct in helping obtaining runes / the orb to win the game with.) 11:08:55 <06regret-⸸nde※> (Draco and I really should document more of our plans in a more tangible form, considering how surprised people regularly are by these things.) 11:10:41 <06dolorous_84348> I'd be interested to know what the plans are regarding the Dith reform, since all I've heard so far is they'll be losing the umbra. 11:10:57 <06mumra> > shrinking LOS to 1 before gradually expanding again 😂 yes this was literally the next idea i had to tweak the spell 11:11:19 <06pleasingfungus> enter the D A R K N E S S 11:13:43 <04dracoomega> Yeah, reducing LoS to nothing/nearly nothing and then expanding over time (while being unable to reuse until LoS is back to normal) was the new planned Dith capstone. Seemed a flavorful and neat way to accomplish some of the 'escape tool that involves you blending into the shadows' without quite so many different stipulations as shadow form currently has, as well as hopefully just feeling kind of fun in itself 11:17:17 <04dracoomega> Regardless of the obvious overlap with plans there, I think Lunar Fissure's take on this is specifically awkward because it... has basically no synergy with anything else either school is doing, despite being a very expensive capstone of both. Probably still worse than DDoor, but additionally it's alchemy without letting you use most damage spells on things and tloc without letting you actually blink or do other tloc things 11:17:18 (whereas DDoor is perfectly happy to let you toss Infestations around, and Borg has direct synergy with it). I know you say that it could do a bunch of damage immediately on casting, but I wonder if it's awkward to do a big screen AoE and then... immediately hide everything, so that it's unclear to the player what they even accomplished by blasting things. What is alive and where? Who knows? 11:17:32 <04dracoomega> I do hope I don't sound too negative here, sorry ^^; 11:18:36 <04dracoomega> (Worth noting that DDoor, despite being an extremely strong defensive tool, is still pretty unpopular in 3-rune games despite synergy with a school that already has appealing high level spells that synergize with it) 11:18:41 <04dracoomega> And this would be a lot harder to cast 11:21:16 <04dracoomega> (This doesn't actually have to bear on Fissure either way, but probably worth pointing out that an implementation of player blindness had been talked about in #dcss several times over the past months that I'd been thinking of making a monster or two use at some point, which is basically 'Accuracy penalty that strongly scales with how far away the target is'. So any anti-ranged thing, to some degree. And this is something that might 11:21:16 actually be fine to let Wand of Light use, too (even if that wasn't its primary intended home) 11:27:31 <04dracoomega> Also, wow that Piledriver memorization bug T.T 11:27:44 <04dracoomega> Whoops. (Thanks for catching it ^^; ) 11:28:15 <06dolorous_84348> No problem. 11:31:54 <04dracoomega> Also, regarding Dith plans, at least part of why I haven't been more talkative is that a bunch of them are still vague on the specifics and want actual implementation testing to see how well some of it plays. But the rough idea is 'probably that darkness capstone just mentioned, replacing shadow form', 'probably passive noise suppression', 'lose bleed fog entirely', 'revamp shadow mimic heavily and lean into that as one of the main 11:31:54 god aspects you interact with' 11:32:23 <06dolorous_84348> Makes sense. The details are the hard part. 11:33:44 <04dracoomega> Instead of trying to do the weird "It's a monster who tries to trick the game into thinking is actually you" which has a lot of implementation baggage, make it an actual visible monster that occupies a different tile. Don't try to directly mimic exactly what the player does, but instead have follow-up effects that can work more generally (without, say, needing the player to target particular tiles, which has made spell mimic more 11:33:44 and more brittle over time). In one past conversation, someone described the idea as sort of like "halfway between an ancestor and a battlesphere" which perhaps isn't altogether wrong 11:34:07 <04dracoomega> Pops out for short bursts of things and vanishes again 11:36:40 <04dracoomega> Some vague ideas about melee shadow maybe appearing behind what you target, maybe being better at forcibly distracting things. Maybe spell mimic has a fixed per-school effect so that it's entirely predictable what option it can do (while still supporting different styles of magic differently, like it's trying to do at present). It probably wouldn't show up most times the player did something, so that it could be a little 11:36:41 flashier when it did so, while still being passively triggered. 11:37:32 <04dracoomega> But the specifics of exactly what and when and how often will need actually playing around with it and iterating 12:12:06 <09gammafunk> @wheals Let me know if this is the right one, just took latest trunk save for that user: https://crawl.akrasiac.org/saves/wwf-crawl-latest.tar.bz2 12:14:54 <09gammafunk> Wanted to just run the dgamelaunch-config script directly from terminal but it turns out that's non-trivial to do since you need proper chroot setup 12:15:22 <09gammafunk> I should see if we already have a dgl command group interface to this already but what's done is done 12:39:40 <06mumra> Definitely seems like at least the LOS effect is not worth pursuing in spell form due to overlap, even if other issues can be overcome 🙂 I did love the overall moonlight theme and the idea that everything in the dungeon is so adjusted to darkness than even just moonlight can be damaging and blinding (but especially in extreme doses). Gonna have a think about the blindness mechanic you mention here. I think the space I'm really going 12:39:41 for (and with the similarity to DDoor/Reviv) is "high level spell that's situationally useful and primarily support rather than damage". Definitely agree with PF it's actually not very fun to have a spell you hardly ever use. 12:43:51 <04dracoomega> Yeah, high level spells that are not damage can definitely be a tricky space to design for, but I'm sure there's still design space there for something. (Possibly some of the difficulty with stronger non-damage support tools at high levels is that anything the player can use 'whenever they feel like it' needs some kind of significant counterbalance. There's definitely been a trend for powerful 'panic button' style effects to be 12:43:51 god/consumable-based, since they have long-term limitations that spells generally can't) 12:45:16 <04dracoomega> (And of course, Borg's has its own strategic cost, while DDoor has significant risk attached) 12:45:52 <04dracoomega> I am sure there are a number of baked-in downsides that no spell has yet explored, though 12:59:51 <06mumra> Yep which is why I was experimenting with the heavy contamination, but irradiate already deals with this to some extent. Definitely makes think again about using irradiate more than a couple of times in a fight 13:11:10 <05icoson> !crashlog wwf 13:11:11 <04Cerebot> 2. wwf, XL18 SpEn, T:49399 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.10/wwf/crash-wwf-20120516-153238.txt 13:12:10 -!- kate-- is now known as kate- 13:12:49 <05icoson> !lm wwf 13:12:50 <04Cerebot> 5962. [2024-03-27 20:00:20] wwf the Poker (L8 MfSu of Gozag) killed Blork the orc on turn 6055. (D:6) 13:13:09 <05icoson> !lm wwf coglin 13:13:10 <04Cerebot> 7. [2024-02-21 17:24:02] wwf the Apothecary (L7 CoAl of The Shining One) killed Natasha on turn 3776. (D:4) 13:13:31 <05icoson> this user is reporting a stuck game, "My coglin was wearing rings and the updated [dcss] version does not allow coglins to wear rings. It removes my ring of flight, but I am over deep water with no safe place to land. This causes the crash but does not delete the current game." 13:13:46 <05icoson> not sure why the crash is not showing in sequell, I'll look into that 13:14:01 <05icoson> I can delete the game probably but maybe if this is a general save compat issue it should be fixed? 13:14:18 <05icoson> it shouldn't crash I'd think 13:14:18 <06pleasingfungus> isn't this the thing wheals was talking about above/ 13:14:21 <06pleasingfungus> ? 13:14:27 <05icoson> not sure, I haven't read any backlog 13:14:38 <05icoson> just reading my server admin emails 🙂 13:14:42 <06pleasingfungus> https://discord.com/channels/735056636644687913/747522859361894521/1222591231578603642 13:15:05 <06pleasingfungus> looked like @wheals had a plan; not sure if they were planning on committing a fix or were stopping for now? 13:15:21 <05icoson> ah that's the same user 13:15:48 <05icoson> I'll look into getting the save later this evening 13:17:27 <06pleasingfungus> i think gammafunk did that too 13:17:34 <06pleasingfungus> https://discord.com/channels/735056636644687913/747522859361894521/1222624205204619266 13:25:56 <03wheals> https://discord.com/channels/735056636644687913/747522859361894521/1222591305386033182 this is what needs to be done to fix it, btw 13:26:13 <03wheals> it's not showing in sequell because it's recursive i think 13:27:06 <03wheals> and it's recursive because it's trying to print the local map in the crashlog and that crashes for the same reason that the original crash happens, it hasn't been loaded yet 14:35:53 <12ge0ff> today's message from CXC Discord: > zkyp: it's nearly the end of March and no1 has stepped up yet. The server might die very soon 😦 14:37:23 <12ge0ff> (I thought there already was someone who has agreed to host and admin new (?) CXC) 14:52:23 <06pleasingfungus> yeah, i thought so too 15:06:44 <09gammafunk> yeah, I manually prepared the save and sent the url to wheals already. I think there's nothing to do but push a fix for the bug and potentially do a rebuild 15:17:36 <06mumra> Further thought on this. Reducing accuracy like this only really affects ranged combat and some limited spells - what if the status actually reduced the range of your spells by 1 or 2 tiles (as well as ranged weapons?) (In addition to the accuracy reduction) 15:18:37 <06mumra> And then it's a more powerful effect to use against monsters if you can reduce their smite range / spell range 15:22:07 <04dracoomega> Well, it affecting ranged combat more strongly than most things was deliberate, though the range reduction is interesting. I hadn't actually been intending to change monster blindness at all, though. They already have a blind status effect that seems to work okay - it's just that there isn't really a good player equivalent of such (which is why wand of light currently confuses players instead, which is even less similar) 15:22:25 <03wheals> ok, i'm glad i got the save backup because the fix apparently isn't as simple as i was hoping 15:23:11 <09gammafunk> glad I didn't grab the wrong one 15:24:03 <06regret-⸸nde※> Immensely reducing accuracy affects bolt wands also, and latemidgame / lategame ranged combat is considered concerningly good + samey for the rest of the game after all the skill / types compression + comparatively distancing magic further away from such, so directly targetting ranged combat is a feature. 15:24:04 <04dracoomega> (Also, I did say that the penalty would scale with distance to target, but I didn't mean to imply that it was absent in melee range altogether) 15:24:46 <04dracoomega> Just scaling from something like "Mild penalty" up to "Why are you even trying?" at the edge of LoS or something 15:27:54 <06mumra> Oh certainly, yeah I didn't mean to say it wouldn't affect melee at all 15:28:09 <06mumra> Just seems that simulating player blindness there should be some effect on spells 15:29:56 <06mumra> with a range reduction some spells are affected more than others and it forces you to change your tactics a bit (but still punishes ranged more than spellcasters) 15:31:52 03wheals02 07* 0.32-a0-861-g165e151e72: fix: crash on loading a coglin with ring of flight (#3728) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 16+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/165e151e7203 16:36:06 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-861-g165e151e72 (34) 16:56:45 <06mumra> So. The other spell idea I'm toying with: Alistair's Ungoldify (Lvl 8 Alchemy) The ultimate ambition of every alchemist has long been to achieve the elusive transmutation of base metals into gold. Many have died (or worse) in pursuit of this "Philosopher's Stone". The reverse, however, is rather more possible for one with sufficient mastery of the alchemical arts (although it is no less hazardous). Begins a transmutation of a handful 16:56:45 of gold coins into lead, iron, and silver slugs. The reaction is highly energetic but must be supplied with kinetic energy from the caster by moving immediately after casting, in the direction they wish to roughly propel a cone of the shrapnel. Failure to move in time, or performing any other action, will cause a far weaker expulsion all around the caster instead. Silver slugs cause great damage to chaotic beings, whilst iron causes corrosion, and lead 16:56:45 will poison and knock targets backward. 17:00:50 <06mumra> Untargeted, instead you have to move after casting to pick the direction of fire. So effectively 2 turns per cast. And costs gold. Modelled as 1 projectile for each 1 gold spent. (Amount of gold is a spell power based dice roll, maybe as much as e.g. 100-200 gold at full power) 17:01:54 <06regret-⸸nde※> I suppose this might be much smoother math by being basically two cone shapes (diagonal versus orthogonal), but the innate nature of trying to bring back cones was assessed by others as deeply troubled and is a controversial space at best. 17:04:11 <06mumra> Was thinking something like a 60 degree cone so there is a bit of overlap with the directions. One advantage with no targetting is you don't have to actually show the cone when casting (but I'm not sure what all the issues are with cones) 17:04:47 <06pleasingfungus> ??curvature[2 17:04:48 <04Cerebot> curvature[2/2]: < ebering> your geometric intuition from real life doesn't apply to crawl < ebering> 8 equilateral triangles meet around a point! < ebering> that's too many 17:05:04 <06pleasingfungus> ([1 is funnier but a bit too allcaps for me this afternoon) 17:05:35 <06mumra> haha 17:05:35 <06pleasingfungus> i personally love cones so will be hard pressed to oppose them 17:05:45 <06pleasingfungus> (i have not read the design yet, to be clear) 17:05:52 <06mumra> It could be a 90 degree field of fire even to make the math easier 17:06:28 <06regret-⸸nde※> Cones are a natural extension of the bolt and fireball focus many spells have leaned upon but a variety of people hate the math involved in a discrete grid and regularly require heavy careful finesse to actually catch multiple targets, while spells have become as minimally-aimed as possible because people get tired of doing any of that any meaningfully after hundreds of wins. 17:06:29 <06pleasingfungus> crawl-dev status 17:06:30 <06pleasingfungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1222698291712626779/orange_cone_zone.png?ex=66172985&is=6604b485&hm=2f320a5548f5a035db173820876d474921f4452fe42e76866cce65c525ea6367& 17:07:02 <06pleasingfungus> you keep leaning on the 'hundreds of wins' thing but fiddly aiming is a pain in a single win. see: rift wizard blazerip 17:07:07 <06pleasingfungus> and its deeply cursed friend 17:07:34 <06pleasingfungus> chill wind..... 17:07:37 <06regret-⸸nde※> I literally just won a game of RW2 last night with Chill Wind's new upgrade to mirror on the opposite side. 17:07:39 <09hellmonk> think it's more a casts per game issue than a games played issue 17:08:03 <06regret-⸸nde※> Both pressures can be true. 17:08:08 <06pleasingfungus> casts per game and time per cast 17:08:25 <06pleasingfungus> (real life aiming optimization time) 17:08:41 <09gammafunk> One thing we really don't want to recreate is how glaciate had that rotating targeter where multiple points mapped to the same cone area and just in general how figdety that targeter was 17:08:46 <06pleasingfungus> like i really don't think that we're designing crawl around your elliptics and licis etc 17:08:52 <06pleasingfungus> in terms of spell design concerns 17:08:53 <06mumra> Which is where i think this could be fun because you're casting and moving and don't have to keep stopping and aiming 17:09:30 03Monkooky02 {DracoOmega} 07* 0.32-a0-862-ga0577c09bc: Simplify liquefaction 10(29 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 10-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a0577c09bc12 17:09:30 03Monkooky02 {DracoOmega} 07* 0.32-a0-863-g1478e51eec: Fix grey drac breath display 10(30 hours ago, 5 files, 6+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1478e51eecbf 17:09:30 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-864-gc35c0dd17b: Rename a couple things for improved clarity 10(8 minutes ago, 3 files, 11+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c35c0dd17b52 17:09:31 <06mumra> Also can have good interaction with something like rampage 17:10:22 <06pleasingfungus> me when i'm planning to exploit synergy with a new spell 17:10:22 <06pleasingfungus> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1222699265764102214/rampage.png?ex=66172a6d&is=6604b56d&hm=b78083afe6da4eacc67e8f366c1cadf209aa615b3d12cd84d74b8501e20c33f3& 17:10:40 <06regret-⸸nde※> ...We are extremely obviously designing Crawl around various players' opinions and I guess I'm going to just leave this conversation short. 17:11:08 <09gammafunk> you're gonna hit that sign above your head and get electrocuted and then fall off the building, watch 17:12:42 <06pleasingfungus> you fool! i'm in the bottom right, not the center 17:12:42 <06mumra> ah that takes me back 17:13:06 <09gammafunk> a furry... 17:13:25 <06pleasingfungus> no comment 17:13:41 <06pleasingfungus> long-haul crawl players are part of the rich and diverse quilt of feedback that helps fuel crawl development 17:13:45 <06pleasingfungus> but they are only one part 17:14:13 <06pleasingfungus> (and tbqh i'm not sure they even have strong or consistent opinions about fiddly casting spells?) 17:15:53 <09gammafunk> it's fun to try to make everyone happy because we always succeed every time and then everyone is happy especially the devs 17:16:02 <06pleasingfungus> i have been SAYING this 17:19:26 <04dracoomega> A projectile spell that is aimed directly via moving is kind of neat. I have some concerns about how intuitive the area that would be affected would be in a given direction (since you don't get to see a targeter hilighting what would be hit this way), but maybe if the field is wide enough it will still mostly work with player intuition? (Separately, while using gold as ammo for spells is something I've considered a few times, 17:19:26 I'm... not exactly sure the gold balance is Crawl is great for this, especially on a spell that isn't a situational/emergency thing and rather seems like you'd want to use as a primary offensive tool in a lot of situations. It's true that players usually end up with 'more gold than they realistically have anything useful to spend it on' by the later parts of the game, so there's some free wiggle room, but still have questions about how widely this 17:19:27 varies from run to run, as well as how this would end up feeling as an investment when a player inevitably runs out) 17:20:30 <06dolorous_84348> And would it be the one thing that Gozag would object to, since you're not spending it and, hence, not using it in proper capitalist fashion? 17:20:54 <04dracoomega> That might be a shame, honestly, since that's obviously the easiest way to make sure you have plenty of ammo 17:21:49 <06dolorous_84348> Probably, but it depends on Gozag's view of gold: a way of keeping score and gaining power, or a tool to be used as you see fit? 17:21:51 <04dracoomega> (The gold-based designs I had considered ages back were mostly around types of effects that were specifically aiming to be balanced by not being able to use them too many times in a run) 17:21:54 <06mumra> I was literally also trying to figure that out 17:21:56 <04dracoomega> Before Gozag existed at all, to be clear 17:22:50 <06mumra> But yeah i think it'd be a case that it's just a good spell for Gozag followers (although you still have to balance your need for branch bribes) 17:23:07 <02Monkooky> I think gold based designs are kind of grody personally 17:23:18 <04dracoomega> Like, please don't take this as me ragging on the concept, since it does interest me, but I'm basically unsure if: -Players will feel like they need to hold back on using it, which makes a level 8 spell less fun -Players will not hold back enough (since it's a strong killdudes spell and there are dudes that need killing) and then they run through ammo too quickly and come up dry (and this also feels unfun because now what are those 17:23:18 skills doing for you?) 17:23:22 <06mumra> Ideally I think the gold cost should be balanced so that around the time you might get this spell online, you still have to think about it. But at some point in late/end game you can stop caring 17:23:41 <04dracoomega> It's not the kind of resource anyone is going to have experience rationing 17:23:45 <06mumra> And it's fine that you still have to vary what spells you're using 17:23:53 <02Monkooky> and gold is so wildly variable that I don't think any balance point exists 17:24:17 <04dracoomega> I think lategame gold is almost always 'more than enough' in the majority of cases that I genuinely have no idea how much inter-run variation there is 17:24:24 <06dolorous_84348> Maybe, instead of a spell, make it an offensive ability that you can purchase from Gozag? 17:24:25 <04dracoomega> Which would matter here plenty 17:25:04 <02Monkooky> I mean, one good acq roll is gonna be ~+50% gold at just past O:2 17:25:49 <02Monkooky> (for non goz) 17:25:58 <04dracoomega> Worth considering that 'by the time you get this online' can vary a lot from character to character 17:26:21 <04dracoomega> Merfolk of Veh or something probably gets this quite early if they wanted it 17:26:26 <02Monkooky> Also, wrt cones: if it's not a cardinal direction, it is really pretty cumbersome 17:26:37 <02Monkooky> from poking at lightning rod for a while 17:27:07 <02Monkooky> or at least, if you're doing 'space between two rays' as your cone 17:27:28 <06mumra> So - exactly why this allows only cardinal directions 17:27:29 <02Monkooky> since crawl rays are jank af- you can do very odd things to get +1 tile in your aoe 17:28:00 <06mumra> And if I make it a 90 degree cone then it's very easy to players to reason about as well 17:28:16 <02Monkooky> yeah 17:28:36 <04dracoomega> ...y'know, I suddenly realize I've been using 'cardinal' wrong. It doesn't include diagonals, does it? 17:28:36 <02Monkooky> there's a bit of an oddity where the diagonals become much easier to hit but that's kind of fine probably 17:28:38 <02Monkooky> no 17:29:34 <04dracoomega> I do think these kinds of micromanipulations aren't going to be relevant to a spell that also requires you to move a space while doing it, honestly 17:29:35 <06dolorous_84348> No. In cultures with five cardinal directions, Center is the fifth, but that's not a diagonal. 17:30:44 <06mumra> So the description from Brom's is wrong... 17:30:57 <06mumra> But what is the word for cardinals plus diagonals? 17:31:06 <06mumra> I feel sure there is one 17:31:07 <04dracoomega> 'Compass direction', maybe? 17:31:33 <04dracoomega> Not sure 17:31:53 <06mumra> "Ordinal direction" is the diagonal apparently 17:31:54 <06dolorous_84348> Ordinal directions, I think? 17:32:35 <04dracoomega> That's diagonals only, apparently 17:32:52 <06dolorous_84348> Argh. I've found conflicting sources. 17:33:58 <06mumra> Crawl is non euclidian anyway. I feel like the diagonals count as cardinals in this instance. 17:34:38 wikipedia claims the entire set is called the "principal winds" or "main winds" 17:35:12 <06mumra> I think if you wrote "principal direction" people would get what it meant 17:35:33 <04dracoomega> I've seen a few places now that refer to all 8 as 'compass directions' 17:35:42 <04dracoomega> Which seems better than 'principal winds', at the very least >.> 17:35:50 yeh 17:36:10 means nothing to you if you don't sail… 17:36:36 and we're already losing "tack" so using a phrase that comes from sailing seems like a lose 17:37:13 <06dolorous_84348> "Compass directions" sounds good. 17:39:59 <06pleasingfungus> i had this discussion with some folks a year ago and 'compass directions' was the answer i preferred 18:25:53 03yrdzrfxndfvh02 {dolorous} 07* 0.32-a0-865-gb5af3dc018: add Charlatan's Orb to shop of orbs 10(13 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b5af3dc0186f 18:30:08 03Wizard Ike02 {DracoOmega} 07* 0.32-a0-866-g0cd9e5b168: Fix jinxbite doing extra attacks 10(3 weeks ago, 4 files, 21+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0cd9e5b16809 18:53:29 03SentientSupper02 {DracoOmega} 07* 0.32-a0-867-g107c3107db: Fix pressing f twice to aim quivered Dr breath 10(11 days ago, 2 files, 7+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/107c3107db1d 19:06:15 <06pleasingfungus> @dracoomega so you know, if a commit message includes something like Closes #1234 or Resolves #1234, it'll auto-close the named PRs/issues when it's pushed to master. 19:06:26 <06pleasingfungus> And it'll add a link in the PR to the commit. 19:08:34 <04dracoomega> I did technically know that, but I guess I didn't think to edit anyone else's commit message to include this, if I wasn't making other larger changes 19:08:52 <09hellmonk> was reminded of plague shamblers today... I wonder if there is some room for a monster that bursts into clouds on death (perhaps misery clouds?) sort of like a bloated husk explosion. Maybe it is still too cheeseable. 19:08:55 <06pleasingfungus> obv not remotely a big deal 19:09:08 <06pleasingfungus> tbh i love plague shamblers and think we should just bring em back 19:09:10 <06pleasingfungus> they were cool 19:09:38 <09hellmonk> apparently they caused a retching status? I don't remember that at all 19:09:51 <09hellmonk> I remember walking away from the clouds a lot 19:10:28 <06pleasingfungus> i just remember clouds billowing out over time yeah 19:10:48 <09hellmonk> evidently it was 1 tile per 10 aut so you could always walk out unless slowed or otherwise constrained 19:10:58 <09hellmonk> or slow species 19:14:44 <09hellmonk> I was looking on tavern to see if anyone complained a lot about them and the closest I got was someone saying they showed why circlelos is bad 19:15:01 <09hellmonk> commit removing is here: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/edb40d360931499a73b11273a2af2a7e1d5fe4f4 19:15:32 <09hellmonk> would be cool to see them back with some of those issues addressed, perchance 19:17:37 <06dolorous_84348> They do sound interesting. 19:19:24 <06dolorous_84348> Incidentally, when I was looking through spell code earlier, I noticed that Cigotuvi's Dreadful Rot operates under the assumption that you have flesh if you're of natural or undead holiness. The proposed Poltergeist species would seem to be incorporeal, so that would have to be revised for them. 19:20:02 <04dracoomega> I assumed they would be undead 19:20:30 <06dolorous_84348> I figured, but they wouldn't have flesh to rot despite being undead. 19:20:56 <04dracoomega> I thought undead already couldn't cast that, for some reason 19:20:59 <04dracoomega> I guess I'm wrong? 19:21:12 <06dolorous_84348> Actually, I'm not certain. I should check. 19:22:49 <06dolorous_84348> The code, as far as I can tell, doesn't ban undead from casting it. I'll check in-game. 19:23:26 <04dracoomega> I'm probably completely wrong 19:23:43 <04dracoomega> (I've not really used it much) 19:26:54 <06dolorous_84348> I haven't either, but I figured it might come up given the discussions over undead. And in in-game testing, mummies, ghouls, vampires, and death-forms can all cast it with no restrictions (and they're also drained when casting it, regardless of negative energy resistance, but that's probably a balance thing?). 19:27:37 <04dracoomega> Yeah, undead still pay normal drain costs for various things 19:29:12 <06dolorous_84348> Ah. Player ghosts can't cast CDR, but they don't have flesh either. 19:30:12 <06dolorous_84348> Maybe it could be another species flag: has_flesh or something. 19:30:39 <06dolorous_84348> Once something without flesh gets added as a species, I mean. 19:33:37 <04dracoomega> Djinn definitely can't cast it 19:34:13 <06dolorous_84348> Right, because they're nonliving. Gargoyles shouldn't be able to cast it either, for the same reason. 19:36:45 <06dolorous_84348> Which reminds me, whenever anyone comes up with food cache lines for statue form, maybe the same lines should apply to gargoyles as well? Since both are made of living stone? 19:36:55 <04dracoomega> Makes sense to me 19:37:30 <06pleasingfungus> hm 19:37:32 <06pleasingfungus> i just realized 19:37:44 <06pleasingfungus> we brought back md 19:37:55 <06pleasingfungus> but we forgot about the special md statue form interaction 19:37:57 <06pleasingfungus> probably?? 19:37:59 <04Cerebot> The chances of something with 0.01% probability occuring are certain given how much Crawl you play. 19:38:08 <06dolorous_84348> The resemblance to a lawn gnome thing? 20:23:20 <09gammafunk> thanks Cerebot 20:37:17 <06regret-⸸nde※> I'd be interested in using the plague shambler mechanic for Abyss or Pan, where the exploration needs and respawning monsters both add pressure to waiting out clouds and being locked out of a region, and thus not actually needing much for additional gimmickry (beyond maybe fast movement) to make the monster work. The Abyss could let the clouds be much larger but has glyph pressure (unless we're making it another corporeal 20:37:17 undead anthrophage again, which is also really boring from a flavour perspective) and apocalypse crab comparison pressure (unless they moved over to Pan instead). Pan could get some added flavour space with... a more tangibly malevolent vortex? Vomiting demon birds? Vampire warlocks that dissolve into massive chaos mist? 20:38:02 <06regret-⸸nde※> (I think we have more than enough miasma in extended between Tomb and Tartarus, so it probably would have to be misery or chaos.) 20:38:20 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-868-g153ae1a8d6: Don't crash on gavotting a dead monster 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/153ae1a8d698 20:39:35 <06dolorous_84348> Vomiting demon birds sound the most interesting to me. (It also reminds me of the days when talons were available as demonspawn mutations.) 23:20:54 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-868-g153ae1a8d6 (34) 23:35:25 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-868-g153ae1a8d6 (34) 23:57:54 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-868-g153ae1a8d6