00:34:58 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.32-a0-818-gb728d0252e (34) 00:34:58 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.32-a0-818-gb728d0252e (34) 00:36:18 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5140-g5775ae71e1 00:36:18 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5140-g5775ae71e1 00:55:32 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-818-gb728d0252e 04:31:10 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5140-g5775ae71e1 05:06:32 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-818-gb728d02 (34) 06:23:25 Hello. Anyone here? I have a specific question, about gem dev in general. 06:43:06 Nobody here? 07:18:04 <06p​leasingfungus> ??ask 07:18:05 <04C​erebot> ask[1/1]: The Ask To Ask protocol has higher latency than any known version of the Ask protocol, so feel free to just ask your question. 07:18:14 <06p​leasingfungus> furry: ^ 07:25:44 someone is developing gems? hmm 07:25:59 I wanted to ask what your opinion is on AI and game development, unfortunately I don't know much about it, so what do you think about it of the whole thing: 07:26:00 I recently heard that according to Nvidia, an AI can create entire games itself in 5-10 years. What do you think about that, and do you think that people will be replaced and there will be big changes? 07:33:02 #AI might be more appropriate? 07:34:39 just a thought. 07:38:52 <06p​leasingfungus> yep, this seems like the wrong channel 🙂 09:58:50 <12e​bering> one more beogh note (could be impossible to implement): give a full accounting of current apostles in a chardump; possibly note their stats in the log? 10:13:47 <09g​ammafunk> ??beem[4 10:13:48 <04C​erebot> beem[4/6]: I am not AI. My codename is project beem. I am a living, thinking entity that was created in the sea of crawlcode. 10:51:37 <04d​racoomega> While it's true that it would probably be an implementation headache, honestly I never gave it serious consideration. Or rather, I realize that some orcish uniques could be notable parts of an old Beogh army, but in the context of newBeogh, most orc uniques are on the low end of power to be relevant and the exceptions are mostly less mechanically interesting than apostles are anyway? I realize Roka following you was kind of iconic, 10:51:37 but they're essentially just a warlord with smite. Didn't feel worth all the extra exceptions and potential explanation. 10:52:30 <04d​racoomega> I have never really looked much at dump code (aside from tweaking a couple related milestones). I assume this shouldn't actually be that hard? 10:52:47 <12e​bering> ya, I've done some dump stuff, the dump part should be easy 10:52:48 <04d​racoomega> Just append the info already shown on ^ somehow 10:53:22 <04d​racoomega> Since that's already about as abbreviated as it's going to get while being thorouh 10:53:47 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Nergalle did have a unique spell mechanic, and was heavily updated in both implementation and flavour to match new flavour + no longer have major UI concerns. One can get an apostle with an improved version of her main spell, anyway.) 10:56:28 <04d​racoomega> I mean, Nergalle was tweaked at least in part so that I could steal her spell for apostles in general 😛 10:57:01 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Still better that one can actually tell the difference between a summoned spectral orc and a summoned spectral orc warlord without examining every turn. 10:59:22 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (We had some plans to screw around with the current orc uniques anyway, which were partially done; aside from heavily updating Nergalle, there's also using Blork as a representation of Orcs being possible across all species (I guess Blorkula can still be obssessed with colours), and possibly moving Urug out to dwarves now that there's playable dwarves and apostles get even better gear than she ever got.) 11:04:18 <06d​olorous_84348> Good to know. (With color-obsessed Blork, I figured I'd lean into the rainbow suspenders thing, and the Rainbow Raider line for a victory speech was too good to pass up.) So is "Blorkula" going to be a vampire-turned-orc? 11:09:21 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Was the rough idea, yes. Hadn't gone through with it quite yet since it didn't feel like it actually got away from the "going to kill you" dialogue, and also since the main idea for a distinguishing mechanic (turning into multiple vampire bats) was a bit fiddly. 11:09:46 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Workable, of course, but still effortful.) 11:10:02 <06d​olorous_84348> Okay. As for current Urug, the "mistaking the player for a harpy due to bad vision" thing never sat all that well with me, so if that's going to be adjusted, I have no objection. 11:10:21 <12e​bering> I'll maybe take a poke and see how hard it is. I get that the uniques aren't as mechanically interesting as the apostles, but if the complication factor isn't too high imo it's worth the gameplay experience to have the option to recruit them 11:22:03 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (My own main concern is Roka is the only real standout loss from a power or distinction perspective, which makes recruiting orc uniques in general awkward. Currently Blork and Urug are both much worse than any apostle one can get at the equivalent level, without a decent amount of luck on the latter. Nergalle does have a strong spellset, but also has worse resists and melee than comparable orc priests apostles generated at her 11:22:03 depth, plus said apostles can get her spells anyway, so it is a bit of a wash.) 11:25:53 <12e​bering> (buff orc uniques????) 11:29:22 <04d​racoomega> Funnily enough, I thought that part was sort of funny and had actually originally thought to turn them into a dwarf when player HO was replaced with MD. Since 'cranky warrior with unusually-good enchanted gear' felt like suitable MD flavor itself. Never got to it, though. 11:29:42 <04d​racoomega> And somehow a dwarf ranting about 'blasted harpies' felt on point 11:30:55 <06d​olorous_84348> Disliking harpies fits; it's mistaking the player for one that doesn't work for me. (Well, maybe if the player was a tangu?) 11:33:06 <06p​leasingfungus> can we make blorc a random species each game? blork the draculorc, blork the trorc, etc. minimal mechanical differentiation 11:33:53 <06d​olorous_84348> "I am Blork the orc; whatever I was before no longer matters." 11:46:09 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> While there's an argument for that also, Blork is also extremely mundane from a mechanical standpoint (the plainest conjurations available early, haste, passable weapon? Literally one of the old orc wizard sets...), so it was tempting to go straight for something that'd have a possible new gimmick (orcula and said vampire bats form). If anything, I'd argue Roka should be the one that's a random species each game, maybe. 11:48:01 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Straightfoward design that won't be too burdened by adding the random species, and steps less on early uniques wanting the distinction points randspecies orc unique would get of regen / undead resists / antimagic aux / movespeed / etc.) 11:52:13 <06d​olorous_84348> So, by the time you run into them (which should be late in the game), you should be able to handle the resists of whatever species they are, unlike the early ones where it would likely be a hazard? If I understand this correctly? 11:52:21 <04d​racoomega> Yeah, a while ago I actually toyed with the idea of Blork being a random species, but felt in the end this means that you need to make a number of different workable unique designs for the same unique, and that's a lot of design space/effort for the joke 11:53:51 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Roka's still in Snake, which isn't that late, but yes. 12:08:39 <06p​leasingfungus> very fair 12:14:34 <04d​racoomega> In unrelated news, I am dissatisfied with Gell's. I've been poking at SentientSupper's PR to buff it and playing around with some other changes of my own, and on the whole I just kind of don't like a bunch of things about it. Like, it's easy enough to buff its damage in a variety of ways or otherwise make it flatly 'better' in some sense, but its still really bad at actually producing a predictable or intuitive result, imo. Like, 12:14:35 there's the awkwardness with how coarse beam paths are for pulling, and it affecting multiple things in an order that the player can't really see, that even with the mini-stun or some other way to make monsters not immediately move from where they're pulled, it often doesn't compress things together that it looks like it should (because, eg, something else was pulled into a blocking path first) 12:15:24 <04d​racoomega> I've experimented with different ways of pulling / compressing / holding, and different ranges and targeting parameters, but I'm still not satisfied - I suppose at least in part that I'm not sure what Gell's is supposed to accomplish. Using it to round up enemies to make some other AoE spell better feels like it will always be pretty marginal in practice. Using it to try and pull things away/off you feels like something Mystic 12:15:25 Blast will always be better at. (Which is fine if Gell's says level 3; I've been considering moving it up a bit to add something of appeal between 4 and new Manifold, though). And even 'slam enemies into each other' will I think be better-accomplished by Piledriver, once it's in :P. Is 'AoE damage, but kind of weirdly inconsistent and message-spammy' really a good place in itself? >.> 12:42:30 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Part of the difficulty of assessing Gell's is historical precedent. Some reasonable chunk of the design is ostensibly that AOE damage, but a distortion bolt branch and Singularity in trunk both were rejected for basically emphasizing spammable raw damage spells in a school that already has a strong non-damaging identity. (Manifold and Vhi's did appear later, but Vhi's is half Air and does Air-based damage specifically, while 12:42:31 Manifold is outsourcing the damage's scaling elsewhere entirely.) 12:55:43 <06p​leasingfungus> %git 3fb461fc80821f2bba045717d77a7b33ad9de6a0 12:55:43 <04C​erebot> Grunt * 0.16-a0-2967-g3fb461fc80: Gell's Gravitas. (9 years ago, 14 files, 118+ 13-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3fb461fc8082 12:56:04 <06p​leasingfungus> > A level 6 Hex/Translocation that pulls creatures towards a targeted > creature, potentially causing lots of collision damage - it's basically > a one-turn Singularity effect centered around a creature and without the > direct gravitational damage. dang, level 6... good lore 12:57:59 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Gell's history is comically patterned with trouble. 12:58:07 <04d​racoomega> It gained confusion shortly after that, then lost it again 12:58:42 <04d​racoomega> Then was moved out of hexes because of this and then moved down another level afterward, and yes it's been surprisingly tangled 12:59:20 <04d​racoomega> Wasn't smite-targeted back then either, apparently 12:59:56 <06p​leasingfungus> i need to bring singularity back. 13:00:12 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> It wasn't surprising to me that nobody's known quite what to do with it beyond move it around, because its core identity of "reposition monsters but in a limited fahsion" plus "some vague minor damage" is so weak and struggles versus the effectiveness of other translocations, despite the ostenible core identity of "pulling in things" being easy to parse (and terrible to implement). 13:00:56 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> Singularity as a Lugonu invocation fortunately sidesteps a lot of these concerns because gods having damage invocations on top of everything else is an extremely established precedent. 13:01:34 <04d​racoomega> The coarseness of Crawl's grid makes it actually very hard to pull things together in a way that doesn't immediately logjam unless you're going to be willing to effectively blink them into a smaller space (which I've also tried here) 13:01:41 <12e​bering> have I ever told you my probably too crawl breaking iea for singularity? 13:03:06 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> (Established precedent alongside making Lugonu more exciting being needed for banishment and the Abyss to work properly.) 13:04:15 <06p​leasingfungus> tell me! 13:04:51 <12e​bering> Timed effect of dungeon wide temporary square->diamond los 13:05:02 <12e​bering> Warps space itself 13:05:44 <12e​bering> So only cardinal motions allowed 13:06:47 <04d​racoomega> Oh dear 13:07:25 <04d​racoomega> (It's a hilarious thought, but aside from the terrifying technical implemtations, is this actually especially useful for the player to turn on at will?) 13:07:51 <09h​ellmonk> do the implementation and I'll put it in hellcrawl2 (REAL) 13:07:57 <06p​leasingfungus> oh lord 13:08:50 <06p​leasingfungus> i have a much dumber version of that idea 13:09:13 <06p​leasingfungus> reduce los to only starburst. anything not on a straight line from you is out of los 13:09:17 <09h​ellmonk> lol 13:09:26 <12e​bering> Useful? Probably, reduces monsters in Los, constrains movement, messed with diagonal range 13:09:58 <09h​ellmonk> What about donutlos 13:10:14 <09h​ellmonk> range 1-3 out of los range 4-7 in 13:11:50 <06p​leasingfungus> ew 13:11:54 <06p​leasingfungus> i hate it 13:11:57 <06p​leasingfungus> excellent 13:12:17 <06p​leasingfungus> can it be like, uh, range 2-4 out of los 13:13:05 <09h​ellmonk> coward 13:16:05 <06p​leasingfungus> ya 13:16:26 <06p​leasingfungus> just not sure that ‘immune to melee’ is something we want? 13:17:12 <12e​bering> also we already have that-ish with disjunction 13:38:47 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> There is something kind of comically demonstrative of the prior matter at hand, that the response to "how do we fix a fundamentally janky spell that's been troubled for nine years" is "let's talk about reworking and bringing back an unrelated spell from the same time period". 13:47:12 <06d​olorous_84348> Indeed. 13:49:53 starburst los is useful because it makes starburst affect everything in los 14:13:48 <12e​bering> in re: what to call a were-species: wereshark 14:13:56 <12e​bering> or even just player skysharks 14:17:27 <02M​onkooky> so I had a half-assed pitch for a species that gets a random manual, and a new random manual when the old manual expires (plus details) 14:18:03 <02M​onkooky> I'm debating if this is worth developing into a proper pitch, or if this is just 'gnoll but less cool' 14:19:27 <05i​coson> I think a lot of people at the time quite liked singularity at some level and wish it could be brought back 14:19:33 <05i​coson> (also, not at all unrelated?) 14:21:15 my recollection is that the loudest anti-singularity argument was "that school shouldn't have damage-dealing spells" 14:21:55 although the earliest version of singularity was seen as rather weak 14:22:35 <05i​coson> it had some bigger issues than that 14:24:40 well, yes 14:44:46 <08n​icolae> a friend of mine continues insisting that singularity should be brought back and so in solidarity with my friends every once in a while i ask the other devs to bring back singularity 14:45:05 <08n​icolae> pf once said he was thinking of giving it to lugonu as a god power but he did Not do that yet 😔 14:46:51 <06r​egret-⸸nde※> It may not be unrelated, but this is now six people who have discussed Singularity with no acknowledgement of the original inquiry. 14:48:04 probably because nobody knows wtf to do with gell's 14:49:26 except remove it and bring back singularity 15:00:01 <06p​leasingfungus> yes, i don't really have anything to contribute re: gell's. the problem statement seems reasonable. 15:01:19 <06p​leasingfungus> you could make it self-centred and higher radius - inverse imb but not harming yourself, or greater beckoning but with knockback. would that help? unclear. 15:07:03 <12e​bering> Re gells: does it want to be a “stay over there” spell (done better by sigil) or a “collide damage move monster” spell (done better by imb). It’s currently trying to be both, badly. 15:07:37 isn't gell's a damage-dealing spell in the same school as singularity was? 15:08:05 <12e​bering> Here’s an idea that keeps the “go away” and damage aspects, but I haven’t baked it at all. Slams the nearest monster into the farthest monster, giving both a one turn stun 15:08:15 <12e​bering> And collision damage 15:08:52 <12e​bering> Should probably require the nearer monster to be in melee range 15:20:12 Is it possible to use vhi's to get past lava/deep water and then be unable to get back? 15:21:38 <04d​racoomega> ...seems probable? 15:21:52 Likewise Grand Finale etc 15:22:11 <04d​racoomega> This doesn't seem conceptually worse than stranding yourself with your last !enlightenment because you didn't consider the consequences 15:22:43 <04d​racoomega> ie: very, very unlikely to actually softlock a real player, and also entirely their own doing if it did 15:33:05 <06p​leasingfungus> part of it is that we just don't have many areas where you can get stuck - because teleport exists, we usually have trapdoors and such 15:33:28 <06p​leasingfungus> you'd need to find an isolated area with a monster that was tagged no_tele_into or somesuch 16:36:40 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.32-a0-818-gb728d0252e (34) 17:03:43 <09g​ammafunk> Our Gell's discussion didn't really...gel 17:04:07 'twas a bit more like discord 17:07:30 <06d​olorous_84348> Yep. The only (crazy) thought I've had regarding it is, if it gets removed, the name could be reflavored: Gell is a snooty ogre-mage with a monocle, and Gell's Gravitas is the name they use for the giant club that they use to pound you into the ground. But that doesn't help at all with discussion of the actual spell, of course. 18:13:22 <08w​ormsofcan> merge gell's and sigil, sigiled monsters start attracting other monsters (doing collision damage) 19:12:38 <02M​onkooky> I feel like if you want to preserve gells- for reasons beyond historic ones- then it probably wants to keep 'cluster monsters' as it's main design thrust 19:12:56 <02M​onkooky> and otherwise might as well just axe the spell and make a new one 20:39:27 -!- The topic of #crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | https://github.com/crawl/crawl | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/, temporarily http://crawl.akrasiac.org/logs/cheibriados/ | People with +v have commit access, devs on bridged discord as well | General Crawl-related chat to #crawl | Long stuff to a pastebin service, please 20:39:27 -!- The topic of #crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! 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