00:13:55 <05alexjurkiewicz> small prototype of in-progress games list 00:13:56 <05alexjurkiewicz> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1209035119206080512/Screenshot_2024-02-19_at_3.09.58_pm.png?ex=65e574b3&is=65d2ffb3&hm=d436b704446b24307c4a2e361af0cb0ab0dc20fbdb0afe4f6c20558b478d3d30& 00:32:27 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.32-a0-391-gce5c0aab1b (34) 00:55:20 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-391-gce5c0aab1b 01:17:56 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3529 * 0.32-a0-418-g1d0173ce0b: Experiment with giving bloodcrazed Vp mp regen 10(59 seconds ago, 2 files, 19+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1d0173ce0b61 01:30:04 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> @pleasingfungus an awkward thing about letting standing still count as walking for the next turn's coglin stiffness is that often if you want to move while stiff you should first stand still for a turn 01:30:37 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> not sure exactly what the best solution is 02:01:38 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.32-a0-391-gce5c0aab1b (34) 02:01:39 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.32-a0-391-gce5c0aab1b (34) 02:05:28 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5140-g5775ae71e1 02:05:29 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5140-g5775ae71e1 02:12:36 <04dracoomega> I wonder at like... once stiff is active, it will not be removed until you move, but waiting after moving won't give you it? 02:34:42 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-2295-ga527bec3a8 02:34:43 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-2295-ga527bec3a8 04:32:28 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5140-g5775ae71e1 05:31:25 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.32-a0-391-gce5c0aa (34) 06:21:16 Revguard (L1 CoBe) Crash caused by signal #11: Segmentation fault (D (Sprint)) 06:21:39 Revguard (L1 CoBe) Crash caused by signal #11: Segmentation fault (D (Sprint)) 06:22:09 Revguard (L1 CoBe) Crash caused by signal #11: Segmentation fault (D (Sprint)) 07:13:17 <03wheals> !crashlog * sprint 07:13:19 <04Cerebot> 958. Revguard, XL1 CoBe, T:46 (milestone): https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/Revguard/crash-Revguard-20240219-132208.txt 07:14:13 <03wheals> odd stack trace 07:14:20 <03wheals> !crashlog * sprint -3 07:14:22 <04Cerebot> 956/958. Revguard, XL1 CoBe, T:56 (milestone): https://underhound.eu/crawl/morgue/Revguard/crash-Revguard-20240219-132115.txt 07:26:45 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> yeah, maybe that works, though the whole thing starts to feel uncomfortably delicate... I wonder a bit actually whether it's better to change things further so that you only gain stiff when you attack with two weapons wielded and only lose stiff when you move? 07:30:02 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> think that might feel more natural (and would have the nice benefit of not making the stiff status flash on whenever you do something strategic like pick up or drop an item while exploring 07:30:56 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3529 * 0.32-a0-419-g0b6bc278e0: Make vampiric draining spell prevent blood loss 10(17 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0b6bc278e0e0 07:47:39 03SentientSupper02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3529 * 0.32-a0-420-gaea436df4a: Make vampiric bites prevent blood loss 10(36 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aea436df4a49 08:19:13 <09gammafunk> I need to remind myself where those "fake" item locations are 08:19:42 <09gammafunk> since for this randart stats thing, by far the easiest way to implement it is to allow the item to exist at a place with grid coordinates 08:20:08 <09gammafunk> although I guess I need to also look into proper removal of the item from the grid if I do that 08:22:05 <09gammafunk> looks like I can simply destroy_item() since with the way this already works, I'll have the item index 08:33:03 <06pleasingfungus> draco: yes, that seems right - that’s what i’d intended, oops 08:35:06 <06pleasingfungus> elliptic: i’m not fond of tying stiff to attacks in general, and doubly not fond of tying them to two-weapon attacks in particular. i want to encourage people to launch dual attacks, not punish them 08:35:30 <06pleasingfungus> (and i also think it’d be trickier to flavour / less intuitive…) 08:41:51 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> well, the idea was to have two states you are transitioning between: attacking and moving 08:43:17 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I think it's logically simpler and also I've heard several comments from players who explored into a monster, immediately drank a potion or used a god ability, and then realized they were stiff and should have moved a step or two first and were sad 08:43:55 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> that said, I'm not sure it addresses my main complaint with the stiff thing, which is that it brings in the most annoying part of chei 08:44:08 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> a single accidental step (e.g. when tabbing) can be quite punishing 08:44:18 <06pleasingfungus> i can see an argument for two logical states, but how does that push toward 'only triggering on two-weapon attacks'? 08:44:59 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> Lici said something similar here: https://discord.com/channels/205277826788622337/205316046230388737/1209155869493694545 08:45:04 <06pleasingfungus> i definitely remain unsure that stiff is a good mechanic 08:45:08 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> sure, you could make it be all attacks, that's not the important part 08:45:09 <06pleasingfungus> and am happy to consider alternatives 08:45:21 <06pleasingfungus> (i'd probably want it to be attacks + spells if i made it more narrow) 08:46:11 New branch created: pull/3570 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3570 08:46:11 03dolorous02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3570 * 0.32-a0-392-gb3ddab845f: Reflavour foul flame as darkness, not light. 10(2 hours ago, 19 files, 57+ 57-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b3ddab845f30 08:46:57 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> mainly I just think it would be good if stiff wasn't a "default state" 08:47:04 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> but again I'm not sure stiff is a great idea anyway 08:48:10 <06pleasingfungus> sure 08:52:25 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> it fits thematically but also there's some overlap with the rev mechanic (which also penalizes repositioning in combat, just to a lesser extent) so I wouldn't mind replacing it with something completely different if anyone has any ideas (now that we have the coglin theme maybe someone has some idea inspired by that?) 08:53:16 <02Monkooky> to be honest, I'd rather see rev go than stiff 08:53:34 <02Monkooky> (I've only played a tiny bit of coglin, so I'm not gonna defend that opinion yet) 08:54:05 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> hm, I feel like I've heard like 4 times as many complaints about stiff gameplay as about rev 08:54:47 <02Monkooky> yeah- but I'd argue that's because rev has a very difficult to recognize impact 08:58:42 <06pleasingfungus> brainstorming coglin-y things (still thinking about downsides, since i think we need them) - metal bits breaking off/exploding and needing to be fixed - issues in water? (but this feels narrow) - falling over - things ‘going on the fritz’ - sparks arcing out 08:58:58 <06pleasingfungus> (just thinking about vibes atm, not mechanics yet) 09:00:51 <06dolorous_84348> Quick question. Would anyone object if I temporarily move the foul glow mutation to tier 1 for demonspawn instead of tier 3, so that it shows up often enough to get some testing? 09:01:29 <06dolorous_84348> As for coglins, metal bits breaking and things going on the fritz seem most fitting. 09:02:32 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> do you mean tier 2? I thought tier 1 was like scales or body-slot 09:02:35 <02Monkooky> feedback in main discord channel is that it's not really on par with t3 muts 09:02:47 <02Monkooky> but feedback is one person so far I think 09:03:31 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> think generally the line between tier 2 and tier 3 is blurry enough that moving it to tier 2 would be fine, the main difference in design is that tier 3 mutations arrive later so are more aimed at lategame/extended 09:03:31 <08nicolae> @regret-⸸nde※ starting on the project to punch up bazaars. first step: giving them a minimum of 3 shops, as you mentioned. for some layouts this will be easier than others. some layouts don't even need fixing up, which is nice. hypothetical next steps: implementing a chance for Fancy Shops (but maybe not for all layouts?), and adding new layouts that have new themes 09:03:51 <06dolorous_84348> I thought tiers were rarity levels; foul glow doesn't take up a body slot. 09:03:58 <08nicolae> also i'm going through and adding comments to each bazaar layout of how many shops they can generate 09:04:13 <02Monkooky> there's a very fixed pattern of facets you get 09:04:37 <06dolorous_84348> I guess I don't understand demonspawn mutations as well as I thought. 09:04:39 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (non-monstrous) ds always gets 1 body slot, 1 scales-type, 2 tier 2, 1 tier 3 09:05:23 <06dolorous_84348> Foul stench gets in tier 2, and it doesn't take up a slot either. 09:05:29 <06dolorous_84348> So tier 2 sounds right, then? 09:06:14 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I don't know enough about the facet to know whether tier 2 or tier 3 is more appropriate designwise, but tier 2 muts are scheduled to show up a lot earlier usually 09:06:36 <02Monkooky> tier 3 is also generally more game warping than this sort of reflexive damage 09:07:40 <06dolorous_84348> Okay. Showing up more often is good for testing, and it shouldn't be that game-warping (even in its shadowed rework). 09:09:59 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> some of those vibes remind me a bit of *Corr/Slow, I guess? 09:11:24 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I'm not sure I like giving them *Corr or Slow exactly, but maybe there's something that can be done with "chance of something bad happening when damaged" 09:13:28 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> or alternatively something that cares about your current HP level (vaguely like the augmentation DS facet) 09:14:25 03dolorous02 07* 0.32-a0-392-gb00f77f2df: Move foul glow to tier 2 demonspawn mutations. 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b00f77f2dfb3 09:16:55 <06pleasingfungus> hm, maybe 09:21:09 <06pleasingfungus> another vague vibe: redirecting power between subsystems, like the old x-wing games 09:21:25 <06pleasingfungus> (but would be very worried about micromanagement here) 09:22:53 <02Monkooky> Could integrate stiff and rev for that 09:23:34 <02Monkooky> so the 'stiff' effect instead operates by the more revv'd you are, the slower your speed 09:25:05 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> rev not interacting with spells (nor should it I think) makes that awkward I think 09:25:32 <06pleasingfungus> would help with elliptic’s dichotomy mentioned earlier, but doesn’t help with stiff being very punishing of mispresses 09:25:35 <08nicolae> doing a non-move makes your next action quicker if it's a non-move, and slower if it's a move. and vice versa. nailed it. 09:26:05 <06pleasingfungus> don’t think we want this to be a fast move species :p 09:26:38 <08nicolae> what if it's just slow move all the time but if you stand in the same spot everything else ramps up until you're like a little turret of death 09:27:08 03dolorous02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3570 * 0.32-a0-393-g2f26af50ba: Reflavour foul flame as darkness, not light. 10(3 hours ago, 19 files, 57+ 57-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2f26af50ba47 09:27:26 <08nicolae> coglins have a mindelay cap of only 0.1 dAut but each time they do something so fast they take a lil HP damage 09:27:45 <08nicolae> they can move faster than the weak flesh 09:27:53 <08nicolae> by unlocking the inhibitors 09:27:59 <06pleasingfungus> lightli had (accidentally?) mentioned permanent slow move 1 (barachian, 1.2) as an alternative to stiff 09:28:08 <06pleasingfungus> i like hp costs for actions. 09:28:40 <06pleasingfungus> unclear what the reward should be 09:28:48 <06pleasingfungus> fast mindelay has a few issues 09:28:49 <08nicolae> there we go. merge vampires and ghouls like you thought that one time. make coglins the two-state species. you can choose to Disable Safety Protocols or whatnot, where you move faster and punch harder but you're noisy and it deals damage to you. 09:28:54 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I am against another abnormal default movespeed species 09:29:23 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> think we just don't have room for many of those 09:29:23 <06pleasingfungus> fair 09:30:29 <06pleasingfungus> hm, i can imagine an ‘enter overdrive’ ability that gives you upsides and hp costs for a bit, but…. weren’t we designing a downside for the species? 09:30:29 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I liked the stiff thing on paper because it is fairly distinct from slow movespeed (despite players liking to compare them) 09:31:18 <06pleasingfungus> i vaguely wonder if stiff would be noticeable but less punishing at 1.5 or something, instead of 2.0 09:31:20 <08nicolae> the downside is whatever being stuck in Safety Mode entails (too safe (gotta follow goblin OSHA (checklists (yellow hazard lights)))))) 09:31:31 03dolorous02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3570 * 0.32-a0-393-gd93fb49eda: Reflavour foul flame as darkness, not light. 10(3 hours ago, 19 files, 57+ 57-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d93fb49eda7b 09:32:44 <02Monkooky> you can only wear bright yellow body armour 09:32:45 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I thought about this but I don't really think it improves the design, just makes it less salient 09:32:52 there is already a downside (rev) 09:32:57 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> still can get double-hit by a bunch of monsters if you accidentally move etc 09:33:29 <06pleasingfungus> monkooky: ah, gamer armour, 09:34:12 <04dracoomega> Okay, I intended to play more coglins (and only just woke up), but since we're having this conversation now, I did go and win one since stiff was added (and have gotten a rune on a second one), so I ought to say something. I like that you definitely really, really notice stiff. It actively affects how you want to play the character and feels distinct. It is also a very strong downside sometimes, where a normal tactical reposition 09:34:13 can get you instantly hammered (or surrounded). Sort of showed me how often I tap something and then back off (and now go "Oops T.T"). I do kind of agree that it's a big design downside that it's easy to accidentally move and be heavily punished for it. This has happened to me a couple times, and maybe even was responsible for one death. But I'm not yet convinced this means the design is a problem, so much that I need to get accustomed to it and make 09:34:13 fewer mistakes. But I do feel like it's a lot more noticable than rev in a way that is also good. Rev is... like, clearly it's doing overall power-level work, but attack damage is random enough anyway, that I don't think I notice it except in an overall vague abstract way and I'm not sure how often I play different because of it. 09:34:15 <08nicolae> not to be confused with gay merarmour, which is a rainbow colored fin barding 09:34:41 <08nicolae> er, ahem. 09:34:47 <06pleasingfungus> noisytoot: rev is neither a strong enough, noticeable enough, nor broad enough to be the only downside for the species 09:35:15 <06dolorous_84348> Wearing weird colors is what coglins call "goblin mode" 🙂 09:35:35 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> could increase the numbers on rev of course - it doesn't affect casting but I don't think double enhancer staff is so overpowered, could lower int or something 09:35:47 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I'm not really sure how rev feels with more extreme numbers though 09:35:50 <04dracoomega> In the way that like "I'm not sure they'd play much differently if they just had a small -damag% active all the time, without any status instead of rev" but they definitely would play and feel differently if they just moved slowly in general 09:36:18 <08nicolae> but they're already in goblin mode... 🤔 09:36:34 <06dolorous_84348> Double secret goblin mode! 09:37:00 <06pleasingfungus> i’m not so much concerned about spellcasting being overpowered on coglin as with it feeling samey on coglin 09:37:35 <06pleasingfungus> would like spellcasters to engage with a species gimmick in some way for most of the game (ie before/unless they get double staves) 09:37:55 <06pleasingfungus> it’s not a hard requirement but it’d be really nice 09:38:23 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I think it is quite significant really (50% extra damage pre-AC is quite a lot) but it is certainly a bit opaque to the player how large it is 09:38:51 <04dracoomega> What? 09:39:14 <06pleasingfungus> if you start at 2/3 and go to 3/3, you have +50% from the start 09:39:20 <06pleasingfungus> i was confused briefly too 09:39:43 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> re: the getting accustomed to it, I think this is one of the main things people dislike about chei (who has exactly the same issue) and I would classify it as a necessary evil of chei design - I don't think it's a necessary evil here 09:39:47 <04dracoomega> I feel like something may have been miscommunicated, because I never said that rev didn't matter, but rather that I don't feel it has an impact that I really felt in any way that changed my play patterns 09:40:13 <04dracoomega> It certainly makes them meaningfully weaker than if they didn't have it 09:40:18 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I mean, it makes it harder to kill monsters at the start of fights, which tends to make fights with groups of monsters tenser 09:41:13 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> since you are more likely to get several monsters adjacent to you before you klil the first one, etc 09:41:22 <04dracoomega> This may be correct, and it would be nice if there is some similar design that has a less bad downside while still retaining the interesting aspects of this. I mean, it's not like they have to keep Stiff, but I will say that I find it a lot more interesting than I ever did Rev 09:41:36 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I mean, does rev have to be interesting? 09:41:49 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like I agree with you that there isn't a ton the player can do to play around it 09:41:49 <04dracoomega> I mean... not exactly? 09:41:53 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> but that's the case with lots of things 09:42:20 <04dracoomega> But I'm just stating my personal experience with both and how species-distinct it felt they made play 09:43:03 03dolorous02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3570 * 0.32-a0-393-g84dc8f8cfd: Reflavour foul flame as darkness, not light. 10(3 hours ago, 19 files, 57+ 57-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/84dc8f8cfd33 09:43:23 <02Monkooky> (this is also why I'd rather stiff than rev) 09:44:06 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I mean I don't think there's any disagreement about stiff being more distinctive... I just think (and other feedback has seemed similar) that it's distinctive in a bad way 😛 09:44:22 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> don't think rev is automatically bad because it is less distinctive, or stiff automatically good because it is more distinctive 09:44:45 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> the species already has a super distinctive thing, getting to wield two weapons 09:45:42 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I could certainly buy that rev isn't worth the complexity cost compared with just having a -15% effect on damage, though I do think it's more fun to do Huge Damage once revved up than it is to do Slightly Less Huge Damage all the time 09:45:49 <04dracoomega> I mean... I agree with this, sure? I don't think that was the point I was trying to make. 09:46:38 <02Monkooky> Hm I think, as an experiment, it might be good to jack up the impact of rev 09:46:48 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I mean, you said "But I do feel like it's a lot more noticable than rev in a way that is also good." - I'm saying I don't think comparing them is relevant 09:47:30 <02Monkooky> since right now my (unsubstantiated) impression is that 'just rev' leaves coglins quite powerful 09:48:00 <04dracoomega> Surely if we're discussing the design effectiveness of new species gimmicks, it's not irrelevant to talk about them collectively? 09:48:03 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> would say coglin is quite powerful as is already, yeah 09:48:20 <02Monkooky> and I suspect that rev strong enough to actually mitigate that power would feel very bad 09:48:26 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> sure, but that sentence seemed to be saying "stiff is more noticeable than rev, therefore it is better" 09:48:34 <02Monkooky> in fact, I suspect rev strong enough to have visible impact would feel very bad 09:48:37 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> and I'm saying I disagree with the whole premise 09:49:01 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> yeah, I vaguely suspect that too 09:49:10 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> er 09:49:20 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I suspect that if buffed to balance the whole species it woould feel bad 09:49:23 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I would say it already has visible impact 09:49:51 <06pleasingfungus> wait, why would i jack rev pow if we think that’d suck? 09:50:42 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like again, I'm not trying to defend rev that hard here, I just think that the debate shouldn't be "is rev or stiff better to keep?" 09:50:46 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> we don't have to keep either! 09:50:55 <02Monkooky> ok, that's fair 09:51:05 <04dracoomega> I mean, I wasn't trying to make that point, either 09:51:07 <06pleasingfungus> coglin of theseus 09:51:22 <02Monkooky> I'll say- from my brief play- that coglin felt a lot like worshipping chei 09:51:26 <06pleasingfungus> endless rotating set of downside mechanics 09:51:35 <06pleasingfungus> tune in this week to find out the latest! 09:51:54 <06pleasingfungus> imagine how much new badmuts we could make… 09:53:11 <04dracoomega> I don't think noticable things are automatically better than unnoticeable things, but I do overall feel that if a mechanic has some internal complexity than there is a higher threshold where "How much does it affect what you do?" is relevant. Especially if these are going to be defining parts of a new species. It's not that I liked stiff only because 'you notice it', but rather because I felt it sometimes asked interesting tactical 09:53:12 questions that other species would not, and in general I think that is an actively good thing. The mechanical also has some other downsides, and one can make the argument that these outweigh the good things on balance, but I do still feel that sometimes asked interesting tactical questions that other species would not, in a way that is immediately noticable is a point in something's favour here 09:53:53 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> if it fully felt like chei I would be more in favor of it, but instead it feels like my least favorite aspect of chei gameplay isolated out 09:54:00 <04dracoomega> Can this be accomplished in a way with less downsides? Maybe! Can this be accomplished in a completely different way? Probably! 09:54:20 <04dracoomega> But I liked at least some of the experience here, personally 09:54:37 <04dracoomega> (More than several other people did, I'm getting the impression, but... >.>) 09:55:01 <06pleasingfungus> that just makes your unique experience more valuable! 09:55:27 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> see, I support "interesting tactical questions", but your original feedback (and others) also heavily featured the "oops I moved" aspect 09:55:28 <04dracoomega> I wonder if like... there was some narrower condition where you just couldn't move briefly? So you couldn't fat-finger it at all? 09:56:12 <04dracoomega> Not sure if there's a reasonable condition for this, but... 09:56:32 <06regret-⸸nde※> the minimum, fancy shop subvaulting, and per-layout annotation of shops sounds good to me. I did mention some rough overall thematic ideas of... "a desert oasis or docks, with occasional thick stone glass across water looking out at briar patches and friendly cactus giants", right? I might consider another two or so "barely present in crawl" themes and revise the multiple generic caves into using those after you're done. 09:57:14 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> so it wasn't obvious which part you were noticing 🙂 09:58:06 <04dracoomega> Like "After initiating an attack, but not yet revved up"? So it retains some of the current 'small taps and repositioning worse than usual' but also leans into rev more heavily, because your movement doesn't get stiff after attacks if you are revved up? 09:58:11 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> my experience on chei has been that "tactical repositioning is slow" isn't that interesting generally, just something you have to remember that makes you reposition less often 09:58:58 <02Monkooky> 'tactical repositoning is slow' does have neat strategic implications 09:59:06 <02Monkooky> but I don't think those carry over to coglin 09:59:38 <02Monkooky> (or should!) 09:59:41 <04dracoomega> So you can freely reposition if you've actually revved up by engaging to actively do this, but have positioning downsides if it's not safe to do this, in a way that can't be fat-fingered so easily 09:59:49 what is stiff? 09:59:54 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> interesting, not sure how it would play exactly and it still has the issue of not interacting with casty coglin at all but I'm certainly not opposed to ideas making the rev mechanic more interesting 10:00:26 <02Monkooky> hm, I think this might invite the other fatfinger issue, at least on casters 10:00:30 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> have some concerns about e.g. killing one enemy and the next enemy having a polearm 10:00:40 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> and being stuck for a couple turns waiting for rev to wear off 10:00:44 <02Monkooky> cause 'oops I bumped a guy now I can't move' sounds bad too 10:01:31 <04dracoomega> Oh, I didn't mean that you had to wait to be unrevved completely. But I was wondering sort of like... 'Current stiff status is replaced by a 1-turn no movement. You gain it when attacking, if not at full Rev'. So you still only wait a turn to let it wear off, but cannot move during it, and don't gain it while fully revved 10:01:49 <04dracoomega> Just thinking out loud and all 10:02:30 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> that could work 10:02:42 <04dracoomega> 'Can't move for one turn' is probably almost strictly better UI than '2.0 movement for one turn' isn't it? I guess technically there are some circumstances it lets you get surrounded that slow movement doesn't (since you still get to move first there) but you can't mess up by accident and it's about as bad on average 10:03:05 <04dracoomega> I guess you could even use that turn to quaff, here 10:03:29 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> yeah, I was actually vaguely wondering at one point whether having it so that when you try to move while stiff it waits instead (and removes stiff) would feel better 10:04:12 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like, make the default behavior be the tech/bug I mentioned at the start of this conversation 😛 10:04:28 <02Monkooky> hm, that also neatly solves the 'how does waiting while stiff work' question yeah 10:04:31 would that mean that you can't cast momentum strike after attacking? 10:04:46 <06regret-⸸nde※> (my only particular opinion of this is that at this point of two intertwined debuffs constantly happening with regular combat that I wonder if it should swap with Barachi between bottom-of-intermediate and top-of-advanced) 10:04:53 <04dracoomega> It is a little unfortunate that it doesn't have a direct interaction with casty coglins, but I'm not sure that should be a blocker. (I've not yet tried one of those myself, but I kind of suspect that dual-enhancer staves with +3 evo make dual staff melee really good, and that will feel pretty distinctive eventually) 10:05:01 <02Monkooky> Noisytoot: no, stiff would be it's own status 10:05:11 <06pleasingfungus> i’d probably also trigger this on cast or attack 10:05:32 <04dracoomega> Should casts also rev you, then? 10:05:37 <06pleasingfungus> monkooky: it seems quite wrong to allow momentum after this 10:05:54 <04dracoomega> If being revved is another thing that lets you just move freely 10:06:04 <04dracoomega> If casts get the downside, too, I mean 10:06:09 <02Monkooky> hm, I feel like it feels more wrong to remove -Move from momentum strike by waiting 10:06:12 <06pleasingfungus> i think i would block momentum strike, and ideally re-use the duration - give you time_taken + 1aut of -move 10:06:18 <06pleasingfungus> huh? 10:06:38 <06pleasingfungus> no, don’t allow removing -move from momentum strike by waiting once 10:07:00 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> yeah maybe that works okay 10:07:06 03dolorous02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3570 * 0.32-a0-393-g64aa26ede4: Reflavour foul flame as darkness, not light. 10(3 hours ago, 19 files, 57+ 57-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/64aa26ede4a7 10:07:07 <06pleasingfungus> draco: my concern there is ‘eventually’ 10:08:09 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> just make attacking or casting set -move status duration to time_taken + 1.0 time, maybe make full rev give immunity from this 10:08:17 <06pleasingfungus> draco: i would probably cut the ‘if not at full rev’ bit instead 10:08:24 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> it does mean you can do things like attack and then drink a potion and then move 10:08:31 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> but I'm okay with that I think? 10:08:34 <06pleasingfungus> that feels like extra complexity and i don’t feel a need for it 10:08:52 <06pleasingfungus> (though maybe i’m missing something!) 10:09:08 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I think it might make being at full rev feel more satisfying 10:09:34 <08nicolae> nice. i probably won't touch much of the existing layouts except to bring them up to minimums, though i cleaned up some ordering/spacing/redundancy stuff. (i didn't bother reglyphing, as i do not feel strongly about it enough to do that for approximately forty billion glyphs.) 10:09:43 <04dracoomega> I definitely like connecting it to the rev system. Feels intuitive to me since they're flavor-wise also connected. 10:09:51 <06regret-⸸nde※> an understandable sentiment. 10:10:28 <06pleasingfungus> they’re also flavor-wise disconnected. making your arms limber also makes your legs faster..?! 10:10:36 <06pleasingfungus> imo start simple :p 10:10:45 <04dracoomega> I mean, I saw it as the whole exoframe powering up 10:11:13 <08nicolae> flavorwise can coglins still shapeshift. if so do they shapeshift Within their mech or does the whole thing shift 10:11:26 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> depends on the form maybe? 10:11:35 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like tree-coglin can still dual-wield 10:11:55 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> so I assume some amonut of keeping the mech is going on? 10:12:20 <08nicolae> maybe the mech is too strong to polymorph so they can't do forms but also can't turn into a tree or a bat. 10:12:32 <08nicolae> all the benefits of being undead without being undead 😌 10:12:54 <06dolorous_84348> The mech is runed, after all 🙂 10:13:09 <06dolorous_84348> Who knows how those runes interact with some magic? 10:13:14 <08nicolae> they explode 10:13:45 <08nicolae> whenever you fail a Will check, your mech does a little magic explosion around you 10:13:58 <02Monkooky> death form is permanently stiff 10:14:13 <06pleasingfungus> nicolae: current lore is that the mech melds fully in full meld forms, and the legs meld in treeform 10:14:49 <08nicolae> maybe you could just go back to the Steel Elf theming but they're actually part steel like the dude from the x-men, so the stiff and rev isn't just the machine but their metal flesh being slow. then... then it'll all come together 10:15:40 <06dolorous_84348> Why not steel goblins, then? 10:15:57 <06pleasingfungus> this does mean that rev and stiff turn off in full meld forms, which is sad but so’s everything about full meld coglins 10:16:07 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> full meld is sad like that for a number of species 10:16:41 <08nicolae> also works 10:18:24 <06pleasingfungus> anyway, will try -move stiff once i have dev time. vindication for bountyhuntersax 10:22:46 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.32-a0-393-gb960cd1172: Don't interrupt rest when allies take poison ticks 10(30 seconds ago, 2 files, 10+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b960cd117296 10:23:00 <04dracoomega> From personal experience here: this was actually a lot more obnoxious than it was helpful ^^; 10:23:13 <06pleasingfungus> ha 10:23:14 <06pleasingfungus> fair 10:23:19 <04dracoomega> Since I was constantly ending up with incidental poison after battles in Snake 10:23:39 <04dracoomega> And needing to just hit 5 over and over again (without even a message when interrupted, so if you didn't know what was happening, you'd probably just think it buggy) 10:25:34 <04dracoomega> Would also like to figure out why get_talent(ABIL_BEOGH_RECRUIT_APOSTLE, false).hotkey is sometimes reporting the wrong hotkey. Last game I had it tell me more than one different thing that was incorrect 10:25:58 <04dracoomega> (Though the fact that it still says 'Look at your ability menu' means it's probably an okay enough reminder anyway until I figure out what's going on there) 10:26:13 <04dracoomega> Even if it's sometimes suggesting you press a button that doesn't do anything?? 10:38:39 <08nicolae> no buttons do anything, if you think about it... 10:59:28 <06pleasingfungus> my buttons go beep boop click clack 11:00:54 <02Monkooky> proof PF doesn't think about buttons 11:02:30 <06pleasingfungus> well, proof i don't think about It (by Stephen King?) 11:26:49 cousin itt 11:49:48 <06pleasingfungus> @qwqwqwqwqwqwqw just thought of some awful tech - if -move lasts for (the duration of your attack + 1 aut after), then tech for the fastest move is to do something fast (ie remove a ring) wondering if it should be (your attack + 10 aut) instead. what do you think? 11:50:25 <06pleasingfungus> that's a bit annoying if you're hasted, since you'd have to take two actions before it goes away... 11:51:21 <06pleasingfungus> could make it [your attack + (10 aut) * (haste/slow mult)] 11:51:51 <02Monkooky> I feel like the best solution, absent the work involved, is making . more granular 11:52:02 <02Monkooky> but that's a lot of work involved 11:52:05 <06pleasingfungus> that is a massive can of worms which i am not touching 11:52:07 <06pleasingfungus> 😛 11:52:32 <04dracoomega> I immediately tense at the idea of making . more granular, tbh. I don't think we really want to encourage microslicing turns optimally 11:53:05 <04dracoomega> I mean, why not just your attack + player_speed() 11:53:12 <04dracoomega> So it's the same if hasted or slowed 11:53:14 <04dracoomega> One base action 11:53:50 <02Monkooky> do spriggans wait at .6 auts by default? 11:54:03 <06pleasingfungus> yep, that's what i just typed in 11:54:10 <06pleasingfungus> (to my code editor) 11:54:10 yleetSyT (L8 SpHu) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (D:5) 11:54:11 <06pleasingfungus> great minds : 11:56:35 <02Monkooky> I remember discussion of making . be interrupted by outside events- like, say, an enemy moving adjacent or a status expiring. Think this is a massive upgrade over the current incentive to emulate this by taking fast actions 11:56:39 <02Monkooky> in theory 11:57:30 <02Monkooky> so I think while we might not want to encourage microslicing turns optimally, we already do- and in that light making it painless is better than making it painful 11:57:57 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.32-a0-394-g98a3e4f53e: -Stiff, +-Move (elliptic, BountyHunterSAX) 10(12 minutes ago, 15 files, 30+ 60-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/98a3e4f53e94 11:57:57 <02Monkooky> I also remember the discussion raising ten thousand practical issues that I don't really wanna grapple with 11:58:18 <06pleasingfungus> there are many ways in which microslicing turns could become more painful, rather than less 11:58:22 <04dracoomega> It sounds very hard to do properly, even if it were considered desireable 11:58:30 <04dracoomega> And I am not sure about the latter part either 11:58:51 <06pleasingfungus> seems quite plausible that we could move away from having more ways to manipulate time, rather than adding easier tools for it 11:59:40 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I assumed it was 10 aut anyway 11:59:49 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> since yeah 11:59:58 <04dracoomega> Like, to some degree, the more straightforward it becomes for a player to manipulate this, perhaps the more often it will be considered something you should just be always doing in regular play, I dunno. I feel like most players are probably not actually trying to manipulate this in most cases at present? 12:00:08 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like this is why I said "1.0 time" when talking about it 12:00:47 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> taking haste/slow into account seems fine too 12:01:23 <04dracoomega> the downside is that it involves more obstruction from and messaging by the UI Of course, I do like when the UI tells me not to do things I didn't mean to do ^^; (I think some difficulties I've had this current Coglin run is that I keep forgetting potions/scrolls make me stiff and then I move afterward and get pummelled >.>) 12:01:43 <06pleasingfungus> yeah, but sometimes the ui will tell you not to do something and you'll be like "ok, fine, i guess i'll do this in a roundabout way" 12:01:44 <04dracoomega> But it seems like they no longer do this anyway? 12:01:57 <06pleasingfungus> like you kill one guy, there's another one 3 spaces away, you want to walk toward him 12:02:08 <06pleasingfungus> before you'd just walk toward him (at 2.0 time), now you wait and then walk 12:02:26 <06pleasingfungus> same time taken, and safer, but more keypresses (especially if you waste another keypress trying to walk first!) 12:02:50 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> one question I guess is what tab should do when it would normally walk but you have -move 12:02:57 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> making tab wait could make some sense 12:03:13 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> think I like that? 12:03:34 <04dracoomega> Seems reasonable to me, on first brush 12:04:13 <06pleasingfungus> sure 12:04:29 <06pleasingfungus> if i ask really nicely, will someone else do it? autofight code makes me sad 12:04:50 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I can take a look 12:05:13 <06pleasingfungus> trying to remember the name of the lua file 12:05:23 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> dat/clua/autofight.lua 12:06:18 <06pleasingfungus> thanks! 12:06:42 <04dracoomega> Getting Coglin and more Beogh testing simultaneously on this run (?tele landed me in the middle of an orc priest band on D:3 and lowered me to literally 1 hp, so it's not like I was going to not take the offer >.>) 12:07:28 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I think it should be as simple as adding a case in function move_towards 12:07:58 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> but I need to remember how to check for a status in lua 12:08:01 <06pleasingfungus> very slightly concerned about multiple stories of desperation beogh worship. unclear what the desired rate is 12:08:21 04Build failed for 08master @ 98a3e4f5 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/7964108437 12:08:45 <06pleasingfungus> there's a you.status function which takes a string status name 12:10:07 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> apparently the status name is "immotile" 12:10:29 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.32-a0-395-g614e6b550b: Fix the build? 10(24 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/614e6b550bf8 12:10:34 <04dracoomega> I understand the concern, but I certainly haven't gotten the impression yet that it's terribly widespread or being done a lot when people would otherwise have really rathered not 12:10:49 <06dolorous_84348> I've noticed when testing in wizard mode, if I can't get damaged enough due to high skills, I can't get low enough to get the option to convert. But that's an odd case. 12:11:19 <04dracoomega> I do share a little concern myself, I will admit, but the flavor is just so good 12:12:26 <06pleasingfungus> my danger antennae are only fluttering. they are not yet fully active. 12:13:12 <06regret-⸸nde※> (might just put more beogh altars in orc entry vaults, regardless of whichever action is taken there) 12:15:54 <04dracoomega> I think the theoretical universality of it is tempered somewhat by it simultaneously not working if you already have a god, and not even being clearly +EV unless you're definitely going to die without taking it 12:16:46 03elliptic02 07* 0.32-a0-396-g52037ea7a9: Make autofight wait for -Move to end if it wants to move towards an enemy 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/52037ea7a925 12:20:18 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I will say re: beogh that I think the median time you find your first orc priest is probably significantly earlier than the median time you find your first altar for a temple god 12:21:03 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I wonder a little bit about making a rename of orc priest for this purpose so that the rarity can be lowered 12:21:23 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> i.e. 1/2 of early orc priests are called something else, and only one of the two names lets you convert 12:21:31 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> not sure it's worth it though 12:21:42 <06dolorous_84348> Orc cleric, maybe? 12:21:56 <06pleasingfungus> orc evangelist :p 12:22:05 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> maybe we'd want to make it not just a rename 12:22:22 <02Monkooky> give them teleport, make them televangelists 12:23:46 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (since it feels bad to have an extra name for players to learn/process that serves no purpose other than the beogh minigame) 12:24:38 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I do think the wizard/priest/warrior mix works pretty well though so I'd also be hesitant to mess that up just for beogh 12:24:53 <06dolorous_84348> On the need to be damaged to worship Beogh, would the hypothetical worship songs be emo stuff like: "If I Could Only Stab Myself Until You Let Me Worship Thee"? 12:25:20 <06pleasingfungus> solution: make the evangelist an early unique 12:25:56 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I guess another option is to give half the orc priests the status "evangelizing", and hide the status if the player is already worshipping a god 12:26:14 <06dolorous_84348> That works too. 12:26:24 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> unique is interesting too, could even have multiple uniques that can do it 12:26:34 the need to be damaged is weird because it means you need to intentionally let them damage you without dying if you want to convert 12:26:51 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> though uniques are also more likely to make you desperate, hm 12:27:13 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I don't have a great sense of how much beogh is balanced around worshipping beogh early vs waiting until orc or something 12:27:28 there's saint roka, but that's much later 12:28:34 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I guess probably the proposal of all this I like best (if there's a problem at all - I'd say leaving beogh as easy to worship for now is good for testing, regardless) is putting a status on some subset of orc priests if the player doesn't have a god, maybe give them special speech or something 12:29:08 <02Monkooky> you could use apostles for this 12:29:52 <04dracoomega> I will say at least that I'm not sure super early Beogh is actually great compared to getting it slightly later, since handling really early apostle challenges can be rough - especially on a character who is already not strong. (I repeatedly did things to try and tone them down for monks/faded altars, for instance) 12:30:04 <04dracoomega> A sort of minor point in the scheme of all this, but still 12:30:12 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> hm, actually: 12:30:26 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> what if it's guaranteed to be able to worship beogh at the orc entrance in some way? 12:31:14 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> like have one special unique or vault-defined orc there who will convert you 12:31:33 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> and then be quite rare before then 12:31:51 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (still possible from faded or a couple vaults or something) 12:32:35 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I don't know if that's too late to be a good standard time for it 12:32:36 beogh is almost like xom now (likely to kill you) 12:33:26 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> or alternatively if D:9-12 seems too late, could be a guaranteed beogh "overflow" vault on D:7-9 or some such with a similar property 12:35:08 <04dracoomega> Orc entrance is often later than even the maximum depth for overflow altars for temple gods (and I'd say Beogh takes longer than the average god to 'warm up', too). A bit unsure about that being closer to the 'normal' time. Like, a while back, I was wondering if Beogh should just have a guaranteed overflow vault by the usual sort of logic, but the flavor of being actively accepted by a band of orcs (there were already messages for 12:35:09 this!) felt so extremely on-point to the flavor of the revamp as a whole that it felt a shame to lose it. To be clear, I don't really want to feel like the game as a whole it warped by the existence of newBeogh, but that is why I kept the original conversion mechanic from the start. 12:36:15 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I agree that being converted by a band of orcs is cool flavor, in principle I think you could keep that while still having not any old orc priest in early D work 12:38:49 you could make orc priests just show up later 12:40:31 <06pleasingfungus> seems like a huge balance change 12:40:42 <06pleasingfungus> or very large, at least 12:44:19 <04dracoomega> Yeah, wouldn't want to mess that up just for Beogh 12:45:10 <04dracoomega> I mean, I will say that in playtesting, it actually was pretty common not to see one until D:6 or something, but it might still be on average earlier? It's certainly not always earlier than a viable altar, or even earlier a significant majority of the time, I think? (Of course, personal playtesting is still a small sample size) 12:50:46 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> objstat suggests there's roughly a 50% chance to see at least one orc priest by D:4 12:52:16 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> 75% by D:5, 90% by D:6 12:52:21 practicepractice (L14 MuAr) ASSERT(defender() && defender()->is_monster()) in 'fineff.cc' at line 691 failed. (Orc:2) 12:52:59 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> (25% by D:3) 12:53:45 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> so in other words the location of the first orc priest is roughly equally split between D:3, D:4, D:5, and D:6+ 12:54:04 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> so maybe only roughly a floor behind a temple god? 12:54:47 <13qwqwqwqwqwqwqw> I don't think that's bad for testing anyway, just something to keep in mind that there are various potential ways to move beogh later if desired 12:56:15 <04dracoomega> * nods * 12:59:10 <04dracoomega> I wonder what the best way to fix that bug up there is, incidentally. Like, I know what's causing it; I've seen it a few times. But the internal logic is a bit awkward. 13:00:30 <04dracoomega> It's caused by a Beogh deathbed conversion while the orc is already on the stairs. So you go to kill it, it schedules an avoided_death_fineff to prevent it from dying from your blow, and then pacifies it. But then it leaves the level before fineffects fire (since it was already on the stairs). Problem is, there's no way for the orc to know that it's- wait, there is, nevermind 13:05:04 <08nicolae> is it possible to get multiple bazaars in a game 13:05:34 <04dracoomega> Very possible 13:05:43 <04dracoomega> My last run got 1 on 2 floors in a row, even 13:06:00 <04dracoomega> But getting more than one per game isn't even all that rare 13:08:17 <08nicolae> noted 13:09:10 <08nicolae> @regret-⸸nde※ what do you think is good odds for a "special shop" to show up in a bazaar? guaranteed? 1/2? 1/3? max of 1 per bazaar, or chance of 2 or 3? 13:09:44 <06regret-⸸nde※> 2/3 chance but 1 per bazaar 13:16:55 <06dolorous_84348> After testing the shadowed rework of foul glow, I find that I like it a bit better. The scaled umbra is better feedback than the glow that isn't really indicated, and Brilliance's gaining umbra means it's the only unrand weapon (although not item) with umbra. Umbra combined with the foul flame damage is likely too strong, but with the flavor sorted, it's just a matter of tweaking damage numbers and umbra radius. 13:17:31 <04dracoomega> I haven't looked at any specifics, but I will say that there's generally a fair bit of latitude for unrand weapons being strong 13:17:58 <06dolorous_84348> I meant the mutation more than the unrand, but I get what you mean. 13:18:00 <04dracoomega> Most characters that find them still won't be able to meaningfully use them due to weapon type, and being exciting is good 13:18:04 <04dracoomega> Oh, sorry 13:18:09 If Brilliance gets umbra instead of halo will Eos still get removed? 13:20:09 <02Monkooky> I'll say it's quite unlikely that reflexive damage is too strong for a Ds mut 13:20:27 <06dolorous_84348> Its halo would be unique again, which works in its favor, but it's a +10 morningstar of electrocution with a halo as its only gimmick. 13:20:37 and if not, what happens if you dualwield them both as a coglin? (do you get a halo or umbra?) 13:20:51 <02Monkooky> halo and umbra always cancel each other 13:20:59 <02Monkooky> regardless of source 13:21:16 <06dolorous_84348> Right now, the off-hand one doesn't do anything because of a bug, which I found while trying to test that 🙂 13:21:42 <06pleasingfungus> hm 13:22:13 <06dolorous_84348> It's scaled by mutation level, but other DS mutations that do reflexive damage are too. 13:22:31 <02Monkooky> right, meant beyond that 13:23:18 <06dolorous_84348> The only thing that scales it is the mutation level. Foul flame does some extra damage to everything is the only concerning bit. 13:25:52 <03semi_tonal> i don't know about the balance but it should probably also be mutually exclusive with spiny, since they're pretty similar effects 13:25:54 <06dolorous_84348> Also, one side effect is that the glowing mutation has effectively been turned into an umbra mutation, and anyone playing deprecated Meteorans.now will no longer glow. 13:26:51 <03semi_tonal> and there's a few other pairs of mutually exclusive DS muts along those lines (the ones that produce clouds, and the fire/ice-themed ones) 13:29:07 <03semi_tonal> (and looking at the code to handle that, love to rediscover that it uses goto) 13:29:15