00:13:17 <06regret-⸸nde※> (I have no opinion because I did not know the button existed) 00:13:27 <04dracoomega> I did! 00:13:43 <04dracoomega> But I wouldn't have been able to tell you what the behavior for 2h weapons was off the top of my head 00:14:54 <04dracoomega> Probably 'unavailable' makes more sense to me than putting a weapon in a list that is otherwise of armor 00:15:57 <04dracoomega> Also, this was more or less my reaction to her when talking about this. Like, "This sounds interesting and also: poor PF" ^^; 00:16:15 <04dracoomega> "Wasn't a second weapon already enough?" 00:16:31 <06regret-⸸nde※> but just think, Draco. 00:16:35 <06regret-⸸nde※> of playable bunyips. 00:18:07 <04dracoomega> I mean, I do think it's interesting. I'm always a fan of equipment weirdness that recontextualizes and causes you to consider decisions that other species never would (rather than just taking decisions away), but it does sound rather technically taxing 00:18:55 <06regret-⸸nde※> next let's make ds lose two slots from mutations and gain two of the other slots 00:19:25 <04dracoomega> I wonder what in the world you're mutating to let you wear a second scarf 00:19:30 <06regret-⸸nde※> two necks to one head. 00:19:33 <04dracoomega> Hahahaha 00:20:06 <06regret-⸸nde※> (scarf slot is extremely silly currently due to stinger anyway) 00:21:29 <04dracoomega> One can tell what kind of a day I've been having when I go to open a text file, and the full 13 items in "Recently opened" are all crash logs for the same character 00:45:22 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.32-a0-42-ga30500b4d3 01:31:41 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5140-g5775ae71e1 01:31:42 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5140-g5775ae71e1 02:01:13 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-2252-gfdbf0dd990 02:01:13 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-2252-gfdbf0dd990 10:23:16 <08nicolae> longer neck 12:54:19 git checkout -b feat/longer_necks 12:57:27 <06pleasingfungus> wait, are they necks or feet? 12:57:34 <06pleasingfungus> get your story straight! 13:15:20 git branch -M feat/longer_necks_and_feet 16:10:10 Don't know why you'd need to have a mutation to wear two scarves. Just put one in the hat slot. 16:51:41 <06pleasingfungus> replicating some dev chat about player spells for monsters 16:52:20 <06pleasingfungus> some discussion of giving vhi's to antaeus - elliptic has concerns about instakills and i have complexity concerns. elliptic endorsed an alternate proposal of giving him blinkbolt 16:53:19 <06pleasingfungus> i wrote: > because you don't control its positioning or its usage of the spell, the interesting parts of the spell just turn into random noise elliptic wrote: > (an ally with a range 7 vhi's that does normal melee damage sounds cool though!) 16:53:59 <06pleasingfungus> three days ago, Draco wrote: > In the last few days, I've implemented monster casting of Foxfire, Scorch, Lesser Beckoning, Vhi's Electric Charge, Manifold Assault, Kiss of Death, Searing Ray, and BVC. > > Not that I plan to give all of those out i wrote: > - foxfire and scorch seem fine (foxfire already basically exists) > - lesser beckoning is basically a harpoon shot variant, nbd > - vhi's i have complexity concerns 16:54:00 about, as noted > - manifold assault is probably fine, i'd have to think about it more > - kiss of death is a little silly for monsters (self-harming effects not very interesting for them) but not the end of the world > - searing ray is......... i'd need to think about it for a while but i'm really unsure about the complexity of that paying off > - not sure why we'd add monster bvc when we already have that jorgrun spell ongoing discussion about that 16:54:00 last 16:57:27 <06regret-⸸nde※> a large part of this context is for beogh's rework centering around fighting and then befriending mini-&s rather than keeping up the current regular-spawning orcish army, and wanting sufficient variety for the "archetypes" those inevitably will have. blinkbolt is much worse for an ally than vhi's is. an even-longer-range vhi's makes fighting that much more dangerous, but might be less finnicky for an ally overall? 16:59:34 <06regret-⸸nde※> I'm worried about blinkbolt moving antaeus net away from the player in the right spacing- I guess spark wasps have something for this?... 16:59:35 <06regret-⸸nde※> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1201315666578374718/image.png?ex=65c95f66&is=65b6ea66&hm=7e1549b2c7eecf8a99bff593427daec4b1312560b57865d4b363e96de665c7b9& 17:01:16 <06regret-⸸nde※> (the theme is also a lot less appropriate) 17:02:33 <06pleasingfungus> as i said in the other channel, these seem like good goals and reasonable concerns 17:03:01 <06pleasingfungus> but if we're going to go to most of the work of making a new spell (which porting a spell like vhi's to monsters is), we should make one that does what we actually want 17:03:12 <06pleasingfungus> rather one that limits itself to a player design 17:05:19 <06regret-⸸nde※> (probably one still nameable after vhi?... actually, do any monster-only spells still refer to spell wizards?) 17:06:09 <06pleasingfungus> yeah i was imagining "vhi's crackling advance" or something 17:06:54 <06pleasingfungus> like i really hope i'm coming across as, like, "everything here is a QAZLAL-TIER CATASTROPHE and i will REVERT TO ZERO POINT SIXTEEN if this is merged". i'm trying to provide constructive criticism in a timely fashion about something that seems suboptimal 17:07:08 <06pleasingfungus> *not oops 17:07:12 <06pleasingfungus> (what a word to miss!) 17:07:43 <06pleasingfungus> it sounds like DO's done a bunch of refactoring work on vhi's to make its code not a disaster, which is fantastic and which i owe considerable thanks for 17:07:59 <06pleasingfungus> i just think that monsters are dirty cheaters and should stay that way 😛 18:06:10 bakla (L27 GrEE) ERROR in 'mon-act.cc' at line 2419: infinite handle_monsters() loop, mons[0 of 3] is cacodemon (D:8) 18:16:04 <06pleasingfungus> !crashlog bakla 18:16:06 *blinkblink* 18:16:06 <04Cerebot> 13. bakla, XL27 GrEE, T:322563 (milestone): https://cbro.berotato.org/morgue/bakla/crash-bakla-20240129-010609.txt 18:16:28 <06pleasingfungus> There is a stone staircase leading up here. The cacodemon blinks! The cacodemon shouts! x6605 18:18:28 <06pleasingfungus> ..........# #.#..#.##...#..#.#... .[........# #.#.................. #.#.[.....# #.................... #.#.......# ###.........#..#.#... #.#.......## #.####...##........ #.#.....[>.# #.####............~ #.#.....#.## #......#.##..)...)~ #.#.....#######..#.###.##..#.#... #.##.##.# #....z.[[.........#... #.##.##.# #.##[Â§#.#.#.#.#.###... ..##.##.# #.#..Â§..#.#.#.#.###..# .....##.####.#&.##.#........##.## 18:18:28 .......................#.#....... #######.####.##.##.#2..#.#.###.## .#...##.##.#...#.#.# #... ..#.##.##.#...#.#.# #### # #.#.##....(...#.#.# # hm 18:19:30 <06pleasingfungus> guessing the player is in the middle (the z?) and that 2 is the cacodemon. Pinogurgh is presumbly the & below and left 18:20:42 <06pleasingfungus> _monster_move is getting repeatedly called and returning false every time 18:20:51 <06pleasingfungus> (but frenzy shouting one time in five) 18:21:45 <06pleasingfungus> a cacodemon is not a fish 18:21:46 <06pleasingfungus> so it's not going to have ENCH_AQUATIC_LAND, hopefully 18:23:17 <06regret-⸸nde※> (I'm confused by the blinking also, unless they have disjunction up and it's not listed in statuses or anything else here? didn't give cacodemons blink, the pan lord isn't gesturing before potentially casting blink_allies_encircling...) 18:23:26 <06pleasingfungus> that is... a good question 18:23:37 <06pleasingfungus> @??cacodemon 18:23:37 <04Cerebot> cacodemon (2) | Spd: 10 | HD: 13 | HP: 82-112 | AC/EV: 11/10 | Dam: 22, 22 | demonic, doors, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: will(160), elec, poison, miasma, neg+++, torm | Vul: holy, silver | XP: 1140 | Sp: b.devastation (3d20) [!sil], vitrify [!sil], malmutate [!sil], dig [!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: human. 18:23:42 <06pleasingfungus> i just sort of assume random monsters can cast blink 😛 18:23:44 <06pleasingfungus> but cacos can't 18:23:53 <06regret-⸸nde※> and they're wielding majin-bo, so they don't disto or chaos to blink it with a hit either 18:24:05 <06pleasingfungus> i wonder about Pinogurgh 18:24:13 <06pleasingfungus> oh 18:24:17 <06pleasingfungus> i also wonder about dispersal traps 18:24:24 <06pleasingfungus> maybe somewhere under those polar vortex clouds? 18:24:53 <06regret-⸸nde※> The Orb Guardian enters a dispersal trap! looks like if a dispersal trap was involved, the message would mention it 18:25:01 <06pleasingfungus> yeah, and would also blink the player 18:25:02 <06pleasingfungus> they don't have -tele 18:25:03 <06regret-⸸nde※> this is deeply baffling many ways also 18:25:14 <06pleasingfungus> very very very good crash 18:32:22 <06pleasingfungus> oh 18:32:29 <06pleasingfungus> dispersal 18:32:43 <06pleasingfungus> Casting: Polar Vortex (mildly dangerous; 1% risk of failure) Confirm with . or Enter, or press ? or * to list all spells. Pinogurgh blinks! The cacodemon blinks! they cast a spell that's not polar vortex 18:32:49 <06pleasingfungus> and then both monsters blinked 18:33:24 <06pleasingfungus> The cacodemon completely misses you. x2 There is a stone staircase leading up here. The cacodemon blinks! they got another turn and then cast the same thing again (no cast prompt) 18:33:29 <06pleasingfungus> and then their game blew up 😛 18:35:14 <06pleasingfungus> oh my god 18:35:23 <06pleasingfungus> static coord_def mmov; 18:35:34 <06pleasingfungus> it's a top-level static variable! it's not localized to a function! aaaaaa 18:35:55 <06pleasingfungus> i refuse. i'm out 18:36:04 🙂 19:05:26 <06pleasingfungus> btw, think i might start some light elvish theming work for the twf species 19:05:40 <06pleasingfungus> if folks hate the idea, speak now, etc 19:05:58 <06pleasingfungus> (“steel elves” that attune to the spirits of their weapons) 19:22:35 <08wormsofcan> blademaster elves 19:24:58 <09hellmonk> do they come from the steel forest 19:25:18 <09hellmonk> I support this bc we can name the next release original elf do not steel 19:36:31 <06regret-⸸nde※> weird tree number 5, eh. maybe if it's a weird tree-like wall rather than the other way around. 19:38:04 <06regret-⸸nde※> (steel elf is a little boring to me but does at least have the deliberately opposite spirit I can respect, and there's indeed weaknesses with most of the other flavour choices.) 19:38:19 <06regret-⸸nde※> (curious if the Second Gimmick was decided upon or not yet more than anything else) 19:47:00 <04dracoomega> Since I wasn't around for any of the original discussion, I felt I should at least try to clarify a few things. Implementing player spells as monster-castable wasn't specifically because I wanted to restrict apostles to player-usable spells. They do, in fact, still have lots of non-player spells in their lists. There were basically 2-3 separate goals going on: Index has repeatedly lamented how ghosts and player illusions (from Mara 19:47:00 and also Nemelex) have gotten a lot more limited on spells they can copy over the years (Fire Elementalist book literally gets nothing!). At the same time, a greater diversity of spells (especially on the lower end of power) mechanically benefits what I'm trying to do with apostles. But also: part of the flavor point of Beogh's retheming and these companions is to suggest that they were once not so unlike yourself and I thought that dipping more into 19:47:01 a handful of player spells - especially ones you don't see as much elsewhere - helps a bit with that. I specifically picked spells that felt they would be usable in enemy hands (ie: no complicated AI stuff, no mass AoE that would make them unable to use among friendlies, nothing like Inner Flame for reasons that should be obvious...) and wouldn't be too hard to implement. (Kiss of Death wasn't actually intended for apostles, since a perma-ally 19:47:01 repeatedly draining themselves a bunch is kind of silly, but it was a low-effort thing while I did other stuff.) I should also note that I had no specific plans for where to use these new spell implementations outside of apostles and ghosts/illusions. In a couple cases, some other uses were quickly suggested, but this wasn't "I think more monsters should use Vhi's" but rather "Are there some player spells a melee-focused apostle could reasonably use." 19:47:02 The positional-based damage bonus is, in fact, something I had assumed I would adjust for the monster version of the spell, but simply had not done so yet. 19:48:48 <04dracoomega> I would, however, argue that a spell which dashes a target into melee of someone is still meaningfully different from a penetrating bolt that lands them... somewhere behind them and also hurts things on the way. To say nothing of the flavor clash of sticking it on an orcish warrior apostle. 19:49:06 <04dracoomega> (I certainly didn't implement it with Anteaus in mind) 19:52:52 <04dracoomega> After playing with it, I do actually think searing ray is an interesting thing for non-apostle monsters to use, though. I don't think there's really that much complexity in it: it's just a beam that locks onto you for several turns unless you break line of fire somehow. Felt like a cool thing for arcanists to maybe trade out force lance for 19:53:57 <06regret-⸸nde※> finally, a way to defeat the unreliable randomness of monster AI :P 19:59:37 <06pleasingfungus> second gimmick is tentatively attractitis, which i’m kind of into from early playtesting 20:03:48 <06pleasingfungus> gotcha - thanks for the writeup of your thoughts! 🙂 i’ll wait for your changes before i give opinions about the final monster vhi’s, then. 🙂 20:05:37 <04dracoomega> Like, I think a non-distance-based damage bonus makes sense to me. A version with no damage bonus at all could also make sense, if people lean more strongly that way. I'm a bit nervous about making it significantly longer range, though, because that's... well, that's really letting them stick like glue. (It having a damage bonus does make sense to me in that the spell remains worse than staying in melee range of them - in a 20:05:38 somewhat similar way to how thunderhulks work) 20:06:05 <04dracoomega> I have concerns about a warrior apostle flying from the edge of los to just immediately smack you in the face ^^; 20:08:28 <04dracoomega> A big damage multiplier on Antaeus is... a bit concerning also. But that suggestion was really quite post-hoc and I feel doesn't have to be tied up in any of this other stuff. 20:09:12 New branch created: pull/3496 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3496 20:09:13 03Alex Jurkiewicz02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3496 * 0.32-a0-43-gc17e358a41: feat(webserver): Add game_id to rcfile_contents 10(69 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c17e358a4169 20:11:29 <06regret-⸸nde※> (I'm not particularly fond of most of the hell lord designs and was wondering if any sparse unique or monster uses for these new spells would be any possible, but probably antaeus not casting blinkbolt in melee range makes it kiiiiiind of fine enough. maybe if Frozen's duration scaled against HD for Flash Freeze's... three? uses?) 20:12:21 03Alex Jurkiewicz02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3496 * 0.32-a0-43-g9ca3f3818d: feat(webserver): Add game_id to rcfile_contents 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9ca3f3818d7e 20:12:33 <06pleasingfungus> i imagined an (hd-based?) flat elec damage bonus and no distance mult, maybe 20:12:45 <04dracoomega> That could make sense, sure 20:13:05 <04dracoomega> Distance mult I definitely agree is unnecessary 20:13:12 <04dracoomega> It's already doing more work by closing more distance 20:24:51 <04dracoomega> (Also, regarding internal complexity of BVC vs roots and such, for what it's worth I'd already been planning to tackle that rewrite/streamlining of constriction that had been discussed a few times, after this.) 20:30:34 <05icoson> re ghost spells, I do think one issue is that it's been a while since the ghost permastore caches got refreshed, and there's probably a lot of stale player spells in there 20:32:41 <06regret-⸸nde※> it was done back in... 0.23, right? 20:32:45 <04dracoomega> That long ago? 20:32:59 <04dracoomega> (I mean, it was obviously a while, due to some of the stuff that shows up in it) 20:33:04 <06regret-⸸nde※> at least, I think that's the last version number gammafunk mentioned 20:34:02 <06regret-⸸nde※> but yes, a lot of ghosts seem to still have all the old fire and ice projectile spells 20:36:06 <06regret-⸸nde※> and even with the upcoming new spells there's still going to be quite a few absences; fire's jumping from foxfire and scorch, to sticky flame, to fireball and plasma beam, to fire storm 20:39:06 <04dracoomega> I did think that giving bolt of fire to ghosts as a replacement for starburst makes sufficient sense to me 20:39:07 <06regret-⸸nde※> freeze to summon ice beast to freezing cloud to refridge 22:02:12 <08nicolae> give ghosts starbursts. they should be allowed to have candies in the afterlife 22:02:20 <08nicolae> also: what's the status of that thing to make corpses not decay anymore 22:02:30 <08nicolae> i think that was a @pleasingfungus joint? 23:36:58 It looks like 3 high winrate tournament players (bakla, hi5amifi, gnomesaying) had someone play a game with their name for the first time on CUE and throw that game in an apparent attempt to troll/cheat/whatever !lg $(!lg * cue t listnames notitle) s=name o=-. cue notitle ?: N=1 23:37:23 Just putting it there for visibility I'm out