00:33:57 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5014-gf9597c7f93 00:58:51 Fork (bcadrencrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.03-2238-gaab713c6c8 01:08:17 -!- ggoes_ is now known as ggoes 03:23:36 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5014-gf9597c7f93 05:07:07 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.31-a0-728-g01b4687 (34) 07:17:34 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-729-gcb44df74be: Tweak Marshlight appearance 10(2 minutes ago, 11 files, 18+ 13-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cb44df74be13 07:39:48 04Build failed for 08master @ cb44df74 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/6147660135 07:45:51 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-730-g983cc26eec: Fix the build? 10(32 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/983cc26eece5 08:21:17 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-730-g983cc26eec (34) 11:16:31 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-731-ga75f04deac: Fix force-attacks with ranged weapons (dilly) 10(12 minutes ago, 3 files, 8+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a75f04deacfe 12:09:18 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-731-ga75f04deac (34) 14:24:20 <04dracoomega> So.... just kinda wondering what the plan is with Boulder/Rending Blade/Warper change and such. Haven't really seen any remark on them since first pushed (and honestly, not much remark on Blade even then), and while I'm not meaning to be like "People must look at these and give feedback in a timely manner!", I would rather like to see them actually tried out. (I know the Passwall tweak was slightly contentious, but if I did 14:24:21 standardize the range at 3 and move to level 3, as was mentioned last week, would that sit okay with most of what was said about it at the time?) 14:31:54 <04dracoomega> (I mean, if the plan is 'Check back again in a couple weeks and we'll see', then I can work with that, too. I'd just like some sense of expectation here) 14:41:26 <06pleasingfungus> passwall: those changes sound good to me. don’t forget to change book spell order if needed, or to remove the silly book ordering requirement 14:41:32 <06pleasingfungus> (latter would be great) 14:41:56 <06pleasingfungus> boulder: i had some suggestions last time and am still a bit worried about complexity, but happy to try it out 14:44:26 <06pleasingfungus> rending blade: i’ve read this spell’s description repeatedly, both the commit and the in-game one, and i have zero idea of what it does 14:44:33 <06pleasingfungus> help please 14:45:15 <06pleasingfungus> “…this spell targets something in melee range, and the two adjacent tiles, and then if at there are at least 2 enemies in that range, spawns a Rending Blade nearby. (If there are 3 enemies, it spawns 2). Each time the caster lands a hit in melee in the next few turns, the blades will dance through a random line of hostile targets, dealing moderate magic damage.” 14:46:19 <06pleasingfungus> i guess you mean that you target an adjacent enemy A, and then spawn a Rendy Blade for each enemy which is both adjacent to A and to you 14:47:22 <06pleasingfungus> so the gameplay is that you get multiple enemies into melee, then you cast this, then it does some extra damage as you bap stuff 14:48:59 <04dracoomega> The targeting is a 3-tile 'minicleave' next to yourself. (Like, I'm reluctant to call it a cleave, since it doesn't actually use your weapon, but it's effectively the targeted spot and the two spots adjacent to it that are also adjacent to you. Very intuitive when actually casting it) 14:49:07 <04dracoomega> And you need to target at least 2 things with it to get the blades 14:49:11 <06pleasingfungus> yeah 14:50:02 <06pleasingfungus> so, obvious question: why not just have it do immediate damage to the minicleave targets, instead of summoning friends and doing the damage indirectly? 14:51:02 <06pleasingfungus> concern is that’s too useful for non hybrids? 14:51:21 <04dracoomega> I mean, the initial attack does do (modest) damage, actually. But part of the idea here is that it makes a spell that naturally scales with your weapon and skill with it, without weirdly directly incorporating that into the formula somehow. Since the faster and more accurately you can attack, the more swipes the blades will make. 14:51:33 <04dracoomega> (Also: it looks cool, imo ^^; ) 14:51:41 <06pleasingfungus> haha 14:51:52 <06pleasingfungus> this is very complicated :p 14:52:16 <04dracoomega> I mean, we already have a few things that are good at doing direct conjurations-style damage close up. The idea here is that it can be stronger if you can also lean more heavily into the melee end of things (with attendant downsides of this) 14:52:25 I like that (re natural scaling) but is it not maybe going to be QB spam? 14:54:01 if it didn't have the blades or the precision-targetting then it's just irradiate / flame wave / imb the fourth 14:54:04 <04dracoomega> That is admittedly possibly a concern. (Then again: given that QB is not normally the weapon of choice on most reaver-style characters in the first place, I don't know that this spell alone would push them that way, since obviously that is typically less good when doing things other than casting this, which you'd surely want to be doing) 14:54:25 <06pleasingfungus> sbl characters have earned some new toys anyway 14:54:25 <04dracoomega> And if some people wanted to lean into that... maybe that's fine? 14:54:39 (yeah, IDK if making Sbl better is a bad thing, especially since I think vanilla has nerfed them?) 14:54:50 <06pleasingfungus> nerfed and buffed and nerfed and 14:55:40 <04dracoomega> You say the spell is very complicated, but I think in practice using it is pretty straightforward? Be in a situation where you're up against multiple things in melee, and willing to give up spells and stand and fight for a few turns, and then just hit things. 14:55:43 <06pleasingfungus> anyway, how about this: we keep the damage to minicleaved targets and then make it give temp +slay for hitting 2-3 targets 14:55:56 <06pleasingfungus> instead of having extra blades wandering around 14:56:05 We made rapiers riposte, in my ongoing quest to make all your commits infernally hard to merge 14:56:13 <06pleasingfungus> your %s burns with a cutting light, etc 14:56:30 <06pleasingfungus> a cold fire, 14:57:01 <06pleasingfungus> oh, i’m also a little leery of including -cast, i forgot to mention 14:57:24 <06pleasingfungus> this spell is already fairly complex, and it’s already situational by virtue of requiring positioning 14:57:24 there's this whole thing about how Positional Magic is supposed to be less about aiming anything (since that'd slow down play and be too much like too-good-ranged-weapons) and care more about the immediate terrain, but in practice it seems like everything that cares about openness (foxfire, battlesphere, eringya's) is just despised for making 14:57:24 people not just use corridor tactics 14:57:45 <06pleasingfungus> i don’t think that’s accurate! 14:58:07 <06pleasingfungus> foxfire and bsphere certainly not despised, nor is iood 14:58:20 <06pleasingfungus> bog is disliked for other reasons 🙂 15:01:29 <06pleasingfungus> (airstrike also well liked, as is servitor…) 15:04:27 <04dracoomega> I mean, honestly this was kind of melee a melee battlesphere in initial design (with other tradeoffs to make it less of an autocast, given that the triggering conditions themselves cost no mp) I... feel a decent bit of the pizzazz of the spell is lost by just giving slaying instead of seeing energy beams dancing up and down through groups, tbh. (Also: they pierce through targets, aren't directly aimable, and several other aspects 15:04:27 that differentiate them from 'just being better at melee'). Like, isn't 'hit 3 melee targets with conjuration damage and then improve your normal melee damage for a little while afterward' kind of a lot like just a weaker Irradiate in practice? 15:05:51 (...it's not particularly productive to say "there's definitely some dislike of foxfire because early D just frequently sticks one in corridors anyway", so there's not much to say back. it'd be nice to use any mix of the, like, five different discussion fronts to actually get polling data for not-bot-traceable statistics instead of just "spend 15:05:52 large chunks of time trawling each of those for general mixed in with all sorts of tangential discussions".) 15:06:22 *for general opinions mixed in 15:11:05 <06pleasingfungus> DO: unclear to me how different dancing energy beams is from weaker irradiate. it’s certainly more complex, but very unclear to me how or if that affects tactics 15:25:07 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.31-a0-731-ga75f04deac (34) 16:14:18 <04dracoomega> Admittedly, the 'have to hit multiple things in a minicleave' component descends from a completely different earlier take on this spell (which did perform an actual melee attack as part of the starter, and then if it hit more than one thing, fired a shockwave behind those things in a line). Which was a decently functional spell, but in practice overlapped way too much with Hailstorm in terms of what it was good at (ie: hitting things 16:14:19 just out of melee of yourself, with spell damage). In a separate recent discussion with someone else, they somewhat reasonably suggested that maybe it could lose the minicleave activation component and just directly conjure the blade in exchange for -cast. Worth noting that it's already hard/impossible to make use of this in a corridor situation, since the blade will refuse to dance through the player. (It also doesn't follow the player around on its 16:14:19 own either, but rather hovers around its spawn location, in terms of 'per-buffing'. I mean... not that someone probably wants to pre-buff with something that takes away their spells. 16:17:57 <06pleasingfungus> i think many characters would want to pre-buff with something that takes away their spells 🙂 16:18:24 <06pleasingfungus> you asked for feedback on these spells. i have offered the feedback that they seem extremely complex 16:18:34 <04dracoomega> A character that has to train conjurations for this to actually do damage, though? 16:18:38 <06pleasingfungus> the same was true of the hexslinger spells; you've since merged them, and players have since noted that they are complex and confusing 16:18:50 <06pleasingfungus> i am trying to help 16:24:55 <04dracoomega> Does it not seem like I am engaging with that in good faith or something? Wasn't I just specifically talking about ways to trim complexity from it while still keeping some of its unique aspects? 16:26:16 <04dracoomega> I am not meaning to sound obstinant or anyhing 16:29:43 <09gammafunk> I think the main aspect that's relevant about making an short-lived ally that exists to deliver damage conditional on some thing is that they bring with them many of the usual trappings of allies, but the conditions placed upon them prevent exploiting that to the same degree 16:30:38 <09gammafunk> so for rending blade, is that fact that the blades get created at some position relevant, is their taking damage somehow relevant (cf. spectral weapon, where it is) 16:31:27 <09gammafunk> and is their ability to move to a new position relevant, is the player's influence over their reposition relevant (mostly coming down to the player swapping with them and does this introduce new tactics and not add new annoyances) 16:31:55 <09gammafunk> this was always something in tension with spectral weapon and that effect had iterate in a lot of ways before we got to a spot where we were mostly happy with it 16:32:56 <09gammafunk> which included it no longer being a spell, in part due to balance concerns and just how casting it felt so common that it became a chore (I might be misremembering some of the justification for egoizing spectral weapon here) 16:33:45 <09gammafunk> so I can't really comment too much on how well rending blading introduces interesting things with the allies, would probably have to take a much closer look 16:35:28 <09gammafunk> it's definitely a big increase in complexity to have an ally with conditions deliver the damage, but it can be pretty neat if lots of tactical movement happens where you position the allies to do good damage...so long as it doesn't get very onerous to constantly do so 16:38:30 <09gammafunk> actually, do these new spells exist in a branch or are they just writeups somehwere? 16:38:52 <09gammafunk> ah I see 16:41:29 <06pleasingfungus> i’m certainly not accusing you of acting in bad faith; it just didn’t feel like you were engaging with the suggestions for lowering complexity. i apologize for anything i overlooked 17:10:00 <04dracoomega> I mean, isn't 'remove the mini-cleave and its targeting requirements entirely' lowering complexity by quite a bit? How could it not be? I mean, one can feel that's the wrong part of the complexity to remove, or not going far enough, but how is it not that? 17:10:15 <04dracoomega> But I have no desire to force anything forward 17:10:20 <04dracoomega> Just to be clear about that 17:11:10 <06pleasingfungus> sure 17:11:20 <06pleasingfungus> sorry; think i'm a bit snappish for unrelated reasons 17:11:25 <06pleasingfungus> i apologize. 17:11:52 <04dracoomega> And if you or the community at large feel the Hexslinger stuff isn't a good fit either, feel free to do what you will with it 17:13:12 <06pleasingfungus> that is not what i'm trying to say 17:13:41 <06pleasingfungus> i think people are excited about the hexslinger changes overall 18:55:26 03hellmonk02 07* 0.31-a0-732-g2891f507e4: fix double portal messages (descent) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2891f507e4c8 19:21:12 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-732-g2891f507e4 (34) 19:41:15 03hellmonk02 07* 0.31-a0-733-gcef226ec52: fix descent peeking 10(52 seconds ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cef226ec5255 19:42:18 New branch created: purplestairs (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/purplestairs 19:42:18 03hellmonk02 07[purplestairs] * 0.31-a0-733-gdb7af1118f: color code descent stairs 10(4 minutes ago, 6 files, 14+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/db7af1118f34 19:43:47 <06pleasingfungus> @hellmonk still think it’d be simpler to do it globally 19:52:02 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-733-gcef226ec52 (34) 19:56:05 04Build failed for 08master @ cef226ec 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/6154259553 20:01:10 03hellmonk02 07* 0.31-a0-734-g12d0ffd41e: Revert "fix descent peeking" 10(59 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/12d0ffd41e5d 20:01:10 03hellmonk02 07* 0.31-a0-735-g775d53a1b6: Revert "fix double portal messages (descent)" 10(39 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/775d53a1b6d4 20:10:36 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-736-g1e36db7fc6: Describe foxfire damage in xv (elliptic) 10(41 seconds ago, 1 file, 11+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1e36db7fc660 20:14:48 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-737-g754b9d5b1c: Remove Stuck status 10(78 seconds ago, 4 files, 5+ 17-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/754b9d5b1cf3 20:20:50 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-737-g754b9d5b1c (34) 20:22:11 04Build failed for 08master @ 754b9d5b 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/6154455268 20:46:16 New branch created: descentmessage (3 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/descentmessage 20:46:16 03hellmonk02 07[descentmessage] * 0.31-a0-736-g05d9d9da0c: fix double portal messages (descent) (real) 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 9+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/05d9d9da0c9e 20:46:16 03hellmonk02 07[descentmessage] * 0.31-a0-737-gf69933f496: don't peek on D:1 entrance 10(84 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f69933f496fe 20:46:16 03hellmonk02 07[descentmessage] * 0.31-a0-738-g116e4892df: checkwhite 10(50 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/116e4892df19 22:04:28 -!- Discord|2 is now known as Discord| 22:07:28 <06pleasingfungus> @dracoomega very sorry again about being rude earlier - i was tired. thank you for working to add cool new things to the game. 22:10:45 <04dracoomega> I appreciate it, thanks 22:16:21 03Monkooky02 {PleasingFungus} 07* 0.31-a0-738-g7cf6fccd4b: Reallow gozag title for excessive spenders 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7cf6fccd4ba2 22:17:25 03Monkooky02 {PleasingFungus} 07* 0.31-a0-739-gcfa880d796: remove unused variables 10(10 days ago, 2 files, 2+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/cfa880d79698 22:17:25 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-740-g87205ac768: Checkwhite 10(35 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/87205ac768d8 22:31:21 04Build failed for 08master @ 7cf6fccd 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/6155199172 22:32:05 04Build failed for 08master @ cfa880d7 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/6155203647 22:35:21 04Build failed for 08master @ 87205ac7 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/6155207652 22:39:31 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-740-g87205ac768 (34) 22:45:41 New branch created: pull/3299 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3299 22:45:42 03RypoFalem02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3299 * 0.31-a0-732-gd94c6a49df: feat: Note when Maurice steals items/gold 10(23 minutes ago, 1 file, 10+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d94c6a49dfd4 23:45:02 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.31-a0-740-g87205ac768 (34)