00:31:20 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5014-gf9597c7f93 00:56:18 -!- allbery_b is now known as geekosaur 03:23:09 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5014-gf9597c7f93 03:52:18 GordonOverkill (L24 AtDe) ASSERT(isnormal(n)) in 'ray.cc' at line 189 failed. (Vaults:5) 03:59:23 GordonOverkill (L24 AtDe) ASSERT(isnormal(n)) in 'ray.cc' at line 189 failed. (Vaults:5) 04:05:36 GordonOverkill (L24 AtDe) ASSERT(isnormal(n)) in 'ray.cc' at line 189 failed. (Vaults:5) 05:19:28 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.31-a0-667-g3972659 (34) 05:44:35 <04dracoomega> So... wondering a little what should be going on regarding Hexslinger. There was a bunch of activity/comments after it was first posted, some of it a little negative, I revamped some parts in response to feedback and reaction to it seemed more positive, design-wise, but I haven't really seen much of it being played or discussed in a practical sense since then, regarding whatever balance state it's currently in - either in #dcss or 05:44:35 Tavern. Can't help but wonder if I've gotten most of the attention it's going to get on experimental for now? Also: while a bunch of the higher level earth spells I have been tinkering on still don't feel fully-baked, there's one that I think could even spice up the starter book that feels fun and I'd like to trry (along with a couple other changes) and I have a 4th Reaver spell working that I rather like (at least on paper) so that Warper could also 05:44:36 trade Vhi's for Momentum Strike as was discussed the other day. Wondering what people think should currently be done about all of this, tbh. 06:41:18 <05sastreii> Finally made it. hand cannons + Mule + doll tiles. 06:41:18 <05sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1147889055904833597/Schermata_2023-09-03_alle_15.39.03.png 06:41:19 <05sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1147889056139710644/guns_n_mules.zip 07:25:13 <06pleasingfungus> @sastreii awesome, tyvm! 07:26:26 <06pleasingfungus> @dracoomega good question. agreed that the hs changes probably won't get much more playtesting on experimental, at least without an explicit appeal. i've lost track of the current state - is there a summary somewhere? 07:27:05 <06pleasingfungus> re other ideas, imo toss up either a written summary or a branch so that folks can talk about em 🙂 07:30:12 <04dracoomega> The summary that was posted in #dcss a while back about Hexslinger is a bit out of date now. I could write a brief updated version of the major changes, if you would like. Was planning to extract and clean up the couple bits of other experimental spell stuff today and then I guess I could put a branch with them up. (Should... the Reaver/Warper stuff and EE stuff be in separate branches?) 07:30:41 <06pleasingfungus> yeah keep stuff separate whenever feasible please 07:30:53 <06pleasingfungus> will make life a lot easier to discuss and merge etc 07:31:13 <06pleasingfungus> a brief update would also be great re hs, if it’s not a big hassle for you 07:31:39 <04dracoomega> It's not. I'll get to that in a little bit. 07:33:19 <04dracoomega> Might as well write up a brief summary of the new spell/tweaks for the other stuff here too, in advance of code cleanup 08:04:02 <05sastreii> Is there any other pending tile request that i’ve missed? 08:06:17 <06pleasingfungus> hm, maybe a new skill tile for shapeshifting skill? 08:06:33 <06pleasingfungus> right now it’s using a slight tweak of the felid uc skill tile 08:06:53 <06pleasingfungus> alternatively could replace the old tmut skill tile, either way works 08:07:43 <05sastreii> Hm ok i will take a look 08:09:33 <04dracoomega> Okay, quickly typed up EE / Reaver stuff for people to look at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VZ2sLOaNap9Pnulv1EyNxWtzrmb9CrnQW1b1orzJ7IU/ 08:59:41 <06pleasingfungus> boulder seems thematic and powerful, and also reasonably distinct from iood. a bit worried about complexity. also, why ban multiple boulders? 09:01:33 <06pleasingfungus> passwall change might be a nice way to encourage more uses of it than stabbing, though it might also mean it should be higher than splvl 2. can we simplify it by making the spell range fixed and making only ac scale w power, maybe div rand rounded per cast? 09:02:50 <06pleasingfungus> petrify chaining is interesting. still feels like an awkward fit for ee, but maybe an interesting change in its own right. very unsure 09:04:42 <04dracoomega> I'm not sure how much more powerful having AC only on the transit is, tbh, if you're concerned about it being higher level because of this. Though simplified spell range is maybe okay anyway? (I was fairly conservative about the AC, since it's most relevant earlygame anyway) One of the reasons for only letting one boulder at once is simply so that you don't just kind of send a continuous wall of things down a single line. I wanted 09:04:42 it to focus a little more on making use of a given chosen boulder instead of 'fill the screen with boulders', y'know? (As for complexity, I think most of it comes together pretty intuitively: line up boulder and bowl over things. If you're wondering maybe about the explosion on hitting walls, that's never been a 'core' part of it doing its thing, and arguably could be removed (though it does let it do some things in close quarters and awkward angles 09:04:43 that it otherwise could not) 09:05:17 <04dracoomega> By the way, this was an alteration for the player Petrification spell (renamed to Petrifying Grasp). Didn't change monster stuff. 09:05:42 <03semi_tonal> i definitely wouldn't call passwall in need of any kind of buff, it's probably too low level as-is really. but increasing the level and giving it fixed range (2 or 3?) but scaling AC sounds potentially reasonable 09:06:03 <03semi_tonal> since the scaling range is especially fiddly with it 09:14:14 <03semi_tonal> petrify chaining seems like it could also be a little weird with power breakpoints? but maybe random rounding would be enough to make that okay 09:14:50 <06pleasingfungus> seems fine to make the player and monster petrify spell match if we only make the chaining hit hostiles 09:14:56 <06pleasingfungus> which will simplify prompting anyway 09:15:58 <04dracoomega> Making it hostile-only chaining shouldn't be hard 09:16:13 <04dracoomega> What power breakpoints does petrify have? 09:16:57 <03semi_tonal> none currently, but it sounds like it would do in the proposed change? 09:17:20 <04dracoomega> Why? Am I missing something? 09:18:41 <03semi_tonal> oh! i read "can now chain to up to 2 random connected-to-target enemies at 66% power" as "once it reaches 66% power, it can chain to multiple targets" (ie increasing spellpower would increase the number of targets it can hit, capping out when you get to 66%) 09:18:51 <03semi_tonal> which makes a lot less sense than the other interpretation now i realise it 09:19:14 <04dracoomega> Yes, it just has less success chance against secondary targets than the primary one 09:20:13 <03semi_tonal> i blame the english language and all its ambiguities... 09:20:19 <03semi_tonal> (but yes, that makes much more sense) 09:22:41 <06pleasingfungus> re boulders: it’s not obvious to me why we want to discourage sending a line of boulders in one direction. there’s a minimum gap of 3 between boulders, and if we ban the player from multibouldering, they’re probably just going to walk away while the boulders do their thing. not like they can shoot at the enemy while the boulder is rolling - unless they’relucky enough to have found lrd, the boulder is in the way! 09:23:00 <06pleasingfungus> very unclear to me why a line of boulders is worse than a line of ioods 09:23:11 <04dracoomega> I mean, maybe it's fine! I'm certainly willing to test it that way; I'm not married to monogomous boulders 09:23:32 <04dracoomega> It's easy to change one way or the other there 09:24:36 <06pleasingfungus> i was worried there was a technical restriction which would block all important spellforged servitor support :p 09:24:42 <04dracoomega> Haha, no not at all 09:24:48 <06pleasingfungus> re complexity 09:24:49 <04dracoomega> It just specifically checks if one exists and then forbids you casting it 09:25:15 <04dracoomega> From the boulder's own perspective, it just internally tracks its movement direction from when it was cast and then otherwise doesn't really care about much else, I think 09:29:15 <06pleasingfungus> 1. you make a boulder that rolls forward and hits stuff - ok, makes sense 2. it moves onto stuff it kills - small under the hood thing that players won’t need explained 3. it can be damaged - some conjured things (foxfires/prisms) are like this already, iood isn’t but iood is weirder. fine 4. self damage on hitting things - surprising, unusual 5. knocks backs lines of enemies - surprising, unlike all other knockback effects 09:29:16 (would expect it to just knock the front enemy into one behind it and damage em) 6. frag explode on hitting a wall - neat but certainly a complication 7. there’s probably something i forgot here. lots of lil bits! 09:30:33 <04dracoomega> I'm generally fine with fixed-range instead of the slightly unintuitive current behavior of range, but I kind of feel like if you want it to be higher level, then the EE book is going to feel even sadder at low levels, since even with Brom's, Passwall is pretty much the only interesting thing it has going on for quite a few levels. 09:31:24 <04dracoomega> I think pushing back and entire line of enemies is pretty intuitive with the concept of rolling over things, even if knockback in the game doesn't work this way in general. I do think it's kind of important to this spell feeling the way it does, though. 09:31:56 <04dracoomega> (The spell description does mention this, at least) 09:33:12 <04dracoomega> The self-damage on hitting was supposed to be a sort of... 'durability' kind of thing. The more work it's doing, the less time it lasts. Was more a possible balance lever than anything, though if you feel it's needless complexity, I don't feel super strongly on it? 09:33:35 Can anyone explain the mechanics of you.time_taken ? 09:35:03 In particular how it gets assigned; it seems like most assignments use *= and it's not clear to me where time_taken becomes nonzero, or why these should be multiplicative 09:38:10 main.cc: you.time_taken = you.attack_delay().roll(); 09:38:17 <03semi_tonal> it's set to 10 (or whatever your action speed is if you're hasted or slowed) every turn in _prep_input(), and then if you're doing a particular action that's faster or slower than usual that gets further modified 09:39:00 thanks, that helps so much 09:50:28 <06pleasingfungus> never felt like passwall was very interesting for most ee as is - if you don’t go stabber, you’ll very rarely cast it. a passwall that’s more usable as an escape seems more interesting to ee, even at higher splv 09:51:39 <04dracoomega> That is... probably true, I suppose. (Though I can't help but still feel that the path of sandblast->stone arrow is slightly sad, even if hopefully there'll be something more fun to look forward to at the end ^^; ) 09:52:42 <06pleasingfungus> seems like a stone arrow issue, not a passwall issue 🙂 09:59:09 <08wormsofcan> passwall is already usable as an escape 09:59:35 <08wormsofcan> basically an automemorize for any character that casts spells given its low level 10:00:33 <08wormsofcan> it's notably good on the ascent when you have levels mapped out because you can passwall anytime you'd dig and it's safer against orb spawns 10:00:43 <06pleasingfungus> i used the word ‘more’ 🙂 10:01:06 <08wormsofcan> I was addressing the "you’ll very rarely cast it" 10:02:51 <08wormsofcan> also if you have a lot of digging charges you can set up dumb things on specific floors 10:03:03 <06pleasingfungus> i mean 10:03:25 <06pleasingfungus> we’re talking about a start book. i don’t really care what you’re doing on orb run 10:03:34 <06pleasingfungus> or with a bunch of digging charges 10:03:48 <06pleasingfungus> that’s all a million years later 10:05:01 <08wormsofcan> well I think it's relevant because as the spell currently is it's closer to the side of "no-brainer" than not 10:05:22 <06pleasingfungus> i agree it’s probably too low level as is 10:05:25 <06pleasingfungus> as kate mentioned earlier 10:05:42 <06pleasingfungus> but i don’t think that means most characters are using it a bunch, esp early 10:05:52 <06pleasingfungus> just that opportunity cost for getting it is very low 10:10:19 <08wormsofcan> bring back dorokhle's tomb, in pog form (creates a single wall in a space adjacent to the caster if there are no features in the spaces adjacent to the caster) 10:10:49 <08wormsofcan> probably still abusable though 10:13:32 <06pleasingfungus> ha 10:13:49 <06pleasingfungus> in 2014, i made a version of dorkhole tomb that made glass walls 10:14:03 <06pleasingfungus> or maybe glass doors? 10:14:07 <08nicolae> make it make doors 10:14:13 <08wormsofcan> door tomb does sound funny 10:14:17 <08nicolae> tomb of dooroklohe 10:14:20 <08nicolae> bah dum tsh 10:14:27 <06pleasingfungus> anyway think it was still busto 10:14:29 <08wormsofcan> new spell: bolt of doors 10:14:41 <08nicolae> deadbolt 10:25:11 <06pleasingfungus> but we already have bvc, 10:25:33 <08nicolae> time for bvd 10:38:34 oh yeah I gave this feedback in discord 10:38:34 but jinxbite feels noticeably too strong 10:40:41 <04dracoomega> I admittedly didn't do a full run with it since the handful I did with the first balance pass. It's very plausible that taking away the jinxsprite delivery system makes it a lot more practical in a way that makes the numbers too high. 10:41:05 to be honest, the old delivery system may have been stronger 10:41:11 <04dracoomega> (It's very easy to reduce slightly if that's the problem) 10:41:24 Both old and new delivery system just felt like they did too much damage 10:41:57 <04dracoomega> Old version was... 2d2, I think? 10:42:21 <04dracoomega> I may have nudged version two up slightly since it got a less useful debuff, and maybe that was a mistake 10:42:32 <04dracoomega> I don't remember for sure now. So many internal iterations on things. 10:44:43 well, it's two shot an orc with a trash dagger territory rn 10:45:09 and is noticeably more effective than trying to ensorc hibernate things 10:45:43 <04dracoomega> If you're talking about melee support in the first place, EH outright kills the thing the turn after it lands, though? 10:47:29 Yes; but it's 2 mana per attempt 10:53:15 <04dracoomega> Okay, well, first of all when I try to run the math on this, I think it's possible that 'lose duration on successful trigger' part isn't working properly 10:53:43 <04dracoomega> Which is resulting in being able to get noticably more triggers per cast than was anticipated 10:55:20 <04dracoomega> (Or rather, it was meant to subtract 4 turns of duration per trigger, but I think it's actually subtracting 0.4 >.>) 10:56:51 oh yeah you aut to fix that 10:58:01 <08nicolae> heyooooo 10:58:01 <04dracoomega> Pfff 10:58:39 <04dracoomega> (Did you have thoughts on the change to Binding Sigil, by the way? I haven't heard much since the nerf/change) 10:59:12 Haven't used it much this run; it feels pretty low value for melee 10:59:30 <04dracoomega> Oh, sure 11:04:27 It turns out that sigil of binding is mad value on a formicid 11:09:12 Hm, feels generally pretty useless at low power 11:09:13 <04dracoomega> "If you can't move fast, have you considered making other things move slow instead? (Until they run up afterward and smack you" 11:09:35 Well, that and the fact that if you sigil in a corridor- you can dig around it 11:09:37 <04dracoomega> You think the low-end duration numbers are too low now, given the downside? 11:09:42 Yeah 11:10:04 <04dracoomega> I did actually lower them a tiny bit at the same time I made the other change, but possibly it wasn't warrented, considering 11:11:15 hm, maybe not, it's hard to say 11:11:24 it's very very bad now for breaking melee 11:14:15 <06pleasingfungus> if we’re tweaking small numbers, that sounds promising for doing further balance changes directly in trunk 11:25:10 I think dimensional bullseye still wants some radical change 11:29:56 <06pleasingfungus> oh? 11:30:02 <06pleasingfungus> why? 11:30:58 It plays very very poorly with allies 11:32:50 Specifically, it encourages doing degenerate or dumb things to land a bullet on a bullseyed target when no valid target is in reach 11:33:48 <04dracoomega> Is shooting your own ally to make it hostile, so that you can then shoot it some more to trigger bullseye really actually better than just shooting the enemy yourself in the first place? 11:34:12 <04dracoomega> I'm pretty sure that bullseye doesn't currently trigger off hitting allies (or at least - it isn't intended to) 11:39:15 It definitely does 11:39:49 my specific degenerate behaviour is using spammal to bypass yred summons 11:41:22 <04dracoomega> Okay, well if it triggers off allies, I do want to make that not work. (Though I don't think one can reasonably prevent turning an ally hostile and then hitting it?) 11:41:46 <04dracoomega> But of course, you'd just be killing your spammals that way, I think 11:42:04 <04dracoomega> Rather than having them survive your attempt at tactical betrayal 11:42:54 I mean, this does kill the spammals; for a yred worshipper with a big horde this is probably the only action they can take that doesn't kill their own zombies 11:44:34 <04dracoomega> I mean, if a target had to be hostile before shooting them, this wouldn't work so well. (Though tbh, I kind of suspect that archer of Yred was always... really awkward? I don't think bows in general play all that well with groups of zombies?) 11:45:25 <06pleasingfungus> it’s bad yes 11:45:30 yeah 11:46:05 <06pleasingfungus> idk how concerned i am about this tech really, it sounds like a super marginal use of time (3 turns and two casts per shot?!), but probably easy enough to fix 11:46:26 <06pleasingfungus> would not expect it to require ‘radical change’ :p 11:47:11 I think probably my bigger condemnation is I haven't felt the desire to cast this spell outside the situation where there's summons in the way 11:47:59 maybe much later in the game I care- I'll wiz myself to elf or something and see if things change 11:47:59 <04dracoomega> I'd think... killing two things for the price of one is a pretty solid deal in a bunch of cases? Especially if one of those things can be killed before it even comes into range to threaten you. 11:48:34 <06pleasingfungus> wiz to elf is a good phrase 11:48:36 That's really not the calculus though- you have to spend the turn to cast 11:49:07 <04dracoomega> I mean, sure. But how fast are you really killing things? 11:51:00 Jinxbite -> inner flame -> situationally sigil -> attack 1 to 2 times is a very reliable kill 11:51:57 actually I guess that's a large part of the problem- inner flame completely eclipses your actual weapon damage early on 11:52:17 so hitting a second target doesn't do much unless they're also inner flamed 11:52:51 <04dracoomega> That might be a thing that naturally improves over the course of the game (it might also be that the low end of inner flame power scaling is a touch too generous still) 11:53:19 <04dracoomega> I think I made it scale from... 50% as much as the old numbers, at min power? 11:58:47 ok I really need to sleep, hopefully I remember to toodle around with bullseye in the morning 12:00:46 <04dracoomega> Sure. Thnks for the feedback. 12:32:17 <09gammafunk> The groundwork we're laying here will see the return of GhHs to the top of the tier lists. It's the power combo of 0.31, 0.32, AND 0.34 12:40:05 <04dracoomega> Return? Did I miss a meme here? 😛 12:41:01 03DracoOmega02 07[hexslinger_changes] * 0.31-a0-656-g9bd7fde3ec: Fix whitespace 10(5 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/9bd7fde3ec52 12:41:01 03DracoOmega02 07[hexslinger_changes] * 0.31-a0-657-g0dc001fe4f: Fix Guardian Golem crashing on explosion 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0dc001fe4f31 12:41:01 03DracoOmega02 07[hexslinger_changes] * 0.31-a0-658-gff25c2f107: Fix Jinxbite not losing duration properly on trigger. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/ff25c2f10727 12:41:01 03DracoOmega02 07[hexslinger_changes] * 0.31-a0-659-g0438d64fa9: Nudge Sigil of Binding's base duration up again (slightly) 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0438d64fa97a 12:43:08 New branch created: earth_spell_adjustments (3 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/earth_spell_adjustments 12:43:08 03DracoOmega02 07[earth_spell_adjustments] * 0.31-a0-668-g6bdd1b670f: Brom's Barrelling Boulder: a new Earth Elementalist capstone spell 10(5 days ago, 20 files, 297+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6bdd1b670fef 12:43:08 03DracoOmega02 07[earth_spell_adjustments] * 0.31-a0-669-ge5f938b4a9: Petrify -> Petrifying Grasp (for players) 10(21 hours ago, 12 files, 162+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/e5f938b4a942 12:43:08 03DracoOmega02 07[earth_spell_adjustments] * 0.31-a0-670-g5dd7f4dabd: Make Passwall give a small bit of AC during transit 10(82 minutes ago, 4 files, 13+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5dd7f4dabd0c 12:43:08 New branch created: reaver_momentum (2 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/reaver_momentum 12:43:09 03DracoOmega02 07[reaver_momentum] * 0.31-a0-668-g7ba8c63448: Rending Blade: New level 4 Reaver starting spell 10(3 days ago, 22 files, 336+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7ba8c6344874 12:43:09 03DracoOmega02 07[reaver_momentum] * 0.31-a0-669-g48b8ba23bc: Replace Vhi's with Momentum Strike in the Warper starting book 10(21 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/48b8ba23bc9c 12:43:44 <04dracoomega> Well, there we go, as discussed earlier 13:04:37 <06pleasingfungus> ??gham guide 13:04:38 <04Cerebot> gham guide[1/1]: THE ULTYMATE RESISTANCES OF THE GHOUL COMBINED WITH POWYRFUL CLAW ATTACKS + RANGED SUPERIORITY FROM OF THE ARKANE MARKSPERSON MAKES THE GHAM THE POWER CLASS OF 0.8, 0.10, AND 0.11. GO FOR SPLINT MAIL FOR MAXIMUM PROTECTION + FLEXIBILITY // - THIS GUIDE BY SLAUGHTRO POWER CRAWLMASTER X 13:09:33 <04dracoomega> I was active back then and I don't think I even remember this at all 13:10:53 that's been around forever, pretty sure it was there last time you were active 13:22:45 04Build failed for 08earth_spell_adjustments @ 5dd7f4da 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/6066405774 13:22:47 <04dracoomega> I didn't claim it wasn't - just that I didn't remember it 13:30:12 03DracoOmega02 07[earth_spell_adjustments] * 0.31-a0-671-gda8e62ace7: Fix boulder out-of-los death type 10(88 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/da8e62ace709 13:35:16 04Build failed for 08reaver_momentum @ 48b8ba23 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/6066407429 13:39:09 04Build failed for 08earth_spell_adjustments @ da8e62ac 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/6066597998 13:51:05 03DracoOmega02 07[reaver_momentum] * 0.31-a0-670-g31291b38e9: Fix Rending Blade not being marked as player-only and unbrace 10(66 seconds ago, 4 files, 3+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/31291b38e945 13:53:11 03DracoOmega02 07[earth_spell_adjustments] * 0.31-a0-672-g5d18a215f6: Fix Brom's not being marked as player-only and unbrace 10(68 seconds ago, 6 files, 1+ 11-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5d18a215f684 13:59:39 04Build failed for 08reaver_momentum @ 31291b38 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/6066677276 14:02:37 04Build failed for 08earth_spell_adjustments @ 5d18a215 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/6066683969 14:05:01 <04dracoomega> Okay, apparently that doesn't stop the test from giving that as a monster spell when it isn't 14:05:03 <04dracoomega> Hrmm 14:13:10 <06pleasingfungus> don’t believe that’s the right flag, no 14:13:36 <06pleasingfungus> there might be a list somewhere - look for starburst 14:14:01 <04dracoomega> Starburst's only flag is spflag::area 14:16:55 <06pleasingfungus> no i mean 14:17:05 <06pleasingfungus> i don’t think it’s implemented as a flag 14:17:08 <06pleasingfungus> unfortunately 14:17:26 <06pleasingfungus> i think it’s a separate list somewhere, maybe 14:17:45 <04dracoomega> I will look 14:20:42 <04dracoomega> Funny thing when I think about it: I never did anything explicit to prevent Jinxbite and Sigil of Binding from doing this. I wonder why they didn't get used automatically by that test and these spells are 14:22:58 <06pleasingfungus> possible the test fails before it reaches them? also bullseye? 14:23:33 the test chooses randomly I think, so you may have just gotten lucky 14:24:47 <04dracoomega> It looks like the test is trying to cast everything, tbh 14:31:52 03DracoOmega02 07[hexslinger_changes] * 0.31-a0-660-gf173efdda6: Don't trigger Dimensional Bullseye on shots at firewood or player summons 10(52 seconds ago, 1 file, 15+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f173efdda64d 15:04:55 <04dracoomega> I am deeply confused. I have been staring up and down the codepath that seems involved in determining monster spell validity and can't tell why this may have happened. In fact, if I try to give a statue either of the spells in wizmode, it literally says 'is not a monster spell' 15:07:11 <04dracoomega> ...oh, there's a lua file with 'exclude this spell from the test' 15:07:25 <04dracoomega> That seems really awkward 15:07:41 <06pleasingfungus> it’s terrible ya 15:07:48 <06pleasingfungus> i did warn you, sort of :p 15:07:49 <04dracoomega> In fact, some of the spells on this list do have monster implementations? 15:07:53 <06pleasingfungus> ha 15:08:28 <04dracoomega> So I assume it's more like 'doesn't play well in automated tests' 15:09:15 <06pleasingfungus> might just be out of date, also 15:09:23 <04dracoomega> // it would be nice if this followed from the casting code or at least // could be validated in some way? 15:11:55 <06pleasingfungus> bet that’s an advil comment 15:11:55 <04dracoomega> I mean... at the very least, there's already a function for 'is a valid monster spell' that this doesn't seem to check 15:12:38 <04dracoomega> It seems to be 15:46:13 <03semi_tonal> i think that check has caught out probably every single new spell that's been added in the last n years (where n is however long it's been since that test was added) 15:52:53 <03semi_tonal> on hexslingers - i'd be in favour of trying it in trunk for wider testing, for me the main things that come to mind right now are just a couple of sigil things (removing the hidden SIZE_GIANT special-casing, and possibly doing something else about players being affected by sigils since i don't think MP drain is a meaningful cost on it) 16:59:17 <04dracoomega> tbh, I'm not exacty sure my thinking process on the SIZE_GIANT thing originally at this point. Some flavor thing on it being hard to stop really big things from moving?? But they already have high HD for the most part, so probably superfluous complication 17:00:57 <04dracoomega> I kinda think the MP drain is a meaningful cost in the very early parts of the game where the player is most likely to be fishing for good sigils in the first place? If you're paying 3 to cast, then step on one, you may not even be able to try a second time if you wiff. Which was sort of the reasoning at the time. Buuuuut admittedly eventually it doesn't matter a lot for many hybrid characters not using their mp for much. 17:03:29 <04dracoomega> (I was perfectly fine with just binding the player when they step on it and not giving swiftness afterward, except I didn't want flying players to be able to avoid it and wasn't sure I wanted either confusing non-equivalence with flying enemies or do trap flying enemies either. Open to other opinions on that, though) 17:11:17 <06pleasingfungus> i mean, i think we should just trap all fliers 17:11:23 <06pleasingfungus> not obvious to me why we wouldn’t 17:11:31 <06pleasingfungus> it’s a magic sigil of binding 17:11:39 <06pleasingfungus> all other dcss traps are triggered by fliers 17:11:50 <06pleasingfungus> very weird that this wouldn’t be 17:14:28 <04dracoomega> I... I guess that's true?? I'd just been like "But it's on the ground" but they're on the ground, too. (Moreover I thought it might be an interesting limitation regarding things it wouldn't work on in different parts of the game, since I guess I feel like... 'tool that works on some things but not other things' feels like a good spot to want things to be in, but maybe if we want that, some other criteria is better?) 17:16:34 <06pleasingfungus> i think does/doesn’t affect fliers is a good mechanical distinction for stuff that can’t affect players 17:17:14 <06pleasingfungus> as you said, it’s cool to have different ways to make monsters feel different 17:21:30 <04dracoomega> How many intuitive traits do monsters have access to that players don't? 17:36:30 <04dracoomega> Also: is there any reason we don't use is_valid_mon_spell() instead of the custom manual list in debug_check_moncasts()? I tested it just now and it still seems to run the test just fine (and this means it shouldn't constantly break, either) 17:37:10 <04dracoomega> @icoson You appear to have written this test in the first place. Is there a hidden gotcha here? 17:41:12 what's the process of getting a pull request reviewed? Just checking, in case I missed something from the docs. 17:53:02 <06pleasingfungus> DO: not saying that it has to be a trait only monsters have, just that keying off monster flight works much better than keying off player flight 17:54:59 <06pleasingfungus> cureja: just gotta wait for devs to have time, sorry. we’re extremely slow these days. it’s not great… 17:56:29 <04dracoomega> Well, I mean 'only monsters have' in this specific case where we want the player to unavoidably be affected by a downside for stepping on this trap, and it's nicer not to special-case 'This avoids the trap, but not for players' 17:58:08 <06pleasingfungus> hm, not a lot leaping to mind. some holinesses..? 17:58:33 <06pleasingfungus> but not really sold on bsig needing the complication 17:58:48 <04dracoomega> It might not need anything, no. I'm just wondering if there's something straightforward that it even could have 17:59:34 <04dracoomega> Like, it's not a dealbreaker or anything. Just pondering if there is anything intuitive 17:59:48 no worries, thanks for the confirmation~ 18:37:56 <05icoson> iirc setup_mons_cast isn't a reliable way to know if a spell is a valid monster spell, though it's been a while, so I could be wrong 18:38:29 <04dracoomega> Well, the test didn't complain when I ran it using that, which suggests at least that it isn't including spells that don't work? 18:38:42 <05icoson> I think it misses spells 18:38:47 <05icoson> though as I said, I could be wrong 18:40:56 <05icoson> %git 2a2180136bb02 18:40:57 <04Cerebot> advil * 0.26-a0-459-g2a2180136b: Add a lua test that exercises monster spells (3 years, 1 month ago, 4 files, 128+ 21-) https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/2a2180136bb0 18:41:03 <05icoson> I mean, that is 3 years ago 🙂 18:44:30 <04dracoomega> Sure, sure. Was just wondering if there was any obvious reason for not doing it that you remembered 18:44:54 <04dracoomega> I might look into it a little more closely tomorrow, since it would be nice to not have to manually maintain a blacklist that people keep forgetting about ^^; 21:39:31 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-668-g34c7ba284f: Retheme: hand crossbow -> hand cannon (Sastreii, hellmonk) 10(14 minutes ago, 39 files, 68+ 70-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/34c7ba284f62 21:52:04 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-669-g6d49a2b2d0: Fix living crystal spell count (OctopodesWeekly) 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6d49a2b2d0f0 21:52:04 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-670-g1b0e0212a4: Elaborate on ?fog/?immo descriptions (OctopodesWeekly) 10(40 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1b0e0212a482 21:52:04 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-671-g85aee17e53: Update description for '.' (OctopodesWeekly) 10(24 seconds ago, 1 file, 4+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/85aee17e53b6 22:14:46 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-668-g34c7ba284f (34) 22:19:00 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-671-g85aee17e53 (34) 22:35:12 Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.31-a0-671-g85aee17e53 (34) 22:38:06 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-672-g7da72447bb: More triumphs 10(13 seconds ago, 1 file, 19+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7da72447bb69 22:40:20 Interesting! 22:40:30 dimensional arrow + starcursed mass can crash 22:48:58 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-672-g7da72447bb (34) 22:57:37 Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.31-a0-672-g7da72447bb 23:05:01 the log: https://crawl.dcss.io/crawl/morgue/Monkooky/crash-Monkooky-20230904-054007.txt 23:50:46 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.31-a0-672-g7da72447bb (34) 23:55:01 Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.31-a0-672-g7da72447bb