00:43:16 Fork (bcrawl) on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.23-a0-5014-gf9597c7f93 03:23:46 Experimental (bcrawl) branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.23-a0-5014-gf9597c7f93 05:29:48 Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.31-a0-656-gb4d89c2 (34) 06:41:12 03elliptic02 07* 0.31-a0-657-gaa4cf243c6: Make CACT_ARMOUR count every time you receive AC-checking damage. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/aa4cf243c683 06:50:49 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-657-gaa4cf243c6 (34) 08:29:08 <04dracoomega> @pleasingfungus Giving a tiny bit of EV in exchange for losing movespeed isn't unreasonable powerlevel-wise, but it does feel really... bland? Like, 'pretend you just have slightly more dex than the screen shows'. When I heard tengu movespeed was on the chopping block, I'd actually thought about giving them an activatable wind blast-like effect instead. Tengu are thematically very attuned to the wind and maybe being able to 08:29:08 unleash what was keeping them aloft would be neat and still fill some of the same role if sufficiently balanced. Like... lose flight and their EV bonus for a while (except they don't even have that at low levels, so maybe... temp-draining instead? Seems to work for formicids) in exchange for creating distance in a way that isn't moving them like barachi and such already do and isn't quite so free and/or tedious as 0.9 movement. Feels more fun and 08:29:09 distinctive to me (and tengu always already felt bland aside from move speed, imo...) What do you think? 08:29:38 <06pleasingfungus> i agree it’s a bit bland 08:29:44 <06pleasingfungus> i liked innate rmsl a bit more 08:29:52 <06pleasingfungus> but elliptic argued against 08:30:22 <06pleasingfungus> it’s slightly different from dex but not in that interesting a way 08:30:27 <06pleasingfungus> re wind blast 08:31:13 <06pleasingfungus> think species level activatable abilities need a pretty high threshold to be justified 08:32:35 <06pleasingfungus> adding an extra button that all characters have access to is big, in terms of extra analysis paralysis etc etc 08:33:12 <06pleasingfungus> think some existing species with activated abilities don’t pass that bar 08:33:15 <06pleasingfungus> eg dracs 08:33:17 <04dracoomega> The high threshold of naga poison spit. (Not meaning to sound snide, and I know it helps cover for a specific early weakness and then afterward is mostly not that worth considering) 08:33:35 <04dracoomega> Wait, really? You think draconian breath is conceptually bad? 08:33:36 <06pleasingfungus> i don’t particularly like naga spit either, no :p 08:33:41 <06pleasingfungus> yes it’s awful 08:33:50 <06pleasingfungus> it is an action tax 08:34:12 <06pleasingfungus> best case is you get a marginal advantage for remembering to push an extra button every fight 08:34:25 <06pleasingfungus> worst case is you’re pale drac and enter kite city, australia 08:34:50 <06pleasingfungus> it doesn’t present players with interesting decisions or exciting, memorable gameplay 08:34:54 <06pleasingfungus> it’s low impact and low cost 08:35:00 <06pleasingfungus> pessimal ability design 08:35:05 <04dracoomega> Well, at the very least, AoE-knockback-with-strategic-cost is definitely not something you want to press every fight or even most fights 08:35:09 <06pleasingfungus> it’s been on my to rework list for years 08:35:23 <06pleasingfungus> yes i was getting there 🙂 08:35:43 <06pleasingfungus> typing on mobile while carrying a toddler is slow 08:35:47 <04dracoomega> Haha, sorry ^^; 08:36:04 <06pleasingfungus> (he wants me to dance with him. who am i to say no) 08:36:20 <06pleasingfungus> anyway i think this is most comparable to ba hop 08:36:34 <06pleasingfungus> which (biased) i think is a pretty decent species ability 08:37:05 <06pleasingfungus> fo shaft also somewhat similar 08:37:26 <06pleasingfungus> in general i get nervous about shifting a design’s power toward escape effects 08:38:32 <04dracoomega> That is fair (but also: escape ability is part of what they already had and tengu are so bloody frail already T.T) 08:39:18 <06pleasingfungus> too many escape effects make it too easy to escape bad choices, and shifting power there makes the design worse at killing, which can put players into a spiral of fleeing again and again 08:39:33 <04dracoomega> I'd always personally felt that deep elves are just better at doing the blasty thing than tengu, despite tengu apts (due to their much higher int) and while tengu are on paper better melee hybrids, that's a tough ask on something so squishy 08:39:35 <06pleasingfungus> but yes te was already an escape species 08:40:00 <04dracoomega> So something more distinctive there is nice, I feel 08:40:41 <06pleasingfungus> random idea: wdyt about giving te innate acrobat? like mu’s faith 08:41:22 <04dracoomega> Worth noting that 'make room around you' on something with very blasty-suited apts is often just letting you kill things instead of simply flee, though I do recognize the potential problem you speak of 08:41:39 <06pleasingfungus> but anyway wind blast could work; just wanted to talk through it and see if there were obvious huge issues 08:41:53 <04dracoomega> I've never really known how strong I actually think acrobat even is, tbh 08:42:09 <04dracoomega> Maybe haven't used it enough 08:42:57 <06pleasingfungus> it’s reasonably useful. depends somewhat on the character 08:43:05 <06pleasingfungus> 15 ev just a big number 08:43:54 <04dracoomega> It really is, for sure. But also: it's not a number that helps you survive actually standing and fighting things which is maybe more important? (I'm not saying it's like bad as an amulet, but I feel like I've mostly favored other options when available - whether this is objectively correct or not) 08:44:26 <04dracoomega> That may be on me; I dunno 08:45:08 <04dracoomega> Obviously it being built into a species is a whole lot better, of course ^^; 08:45:49 <04dracoomega> Gut feeling is that that would be... really good very early in the game? Hmmm 08:46:09 <04dracoomega> Could still turn it on at xl 5 or something, I guess 08:47:00 <04dracoomega> Either way, is that your blessing to at least try out the wind blast thing for a bit and see how it feels, with the option to revert to some other passive bonus in future if it's too good/annoying/whatever? 08:52:46 <03semi_tonal> i'm likewise not really a fan of species activated abilities fwiw, innate acrobat feels like it'd be pretty decent and is a bit more interesting than just bonus EV 08:53:37 <06pleasingfungus> elliptic also making positive noises about acro 08:54:07 <06pleasingfungus> imo bring back wind blast on new fan of gales 08:54:48 <04dracoomega> Okay, fair, evocables were also on the long to-do list 08:54:54 <04dracoomega> So long >.> 08:55:24 <04dracoomega> But yes, if multiple people are in favor of acrobat then I have no specifically strong objections 08:56:33 <08nicolae> gale of fans. you evoke it and you get a bunch of friendly spectator humans going "whoo! we love you!" 08:58:00 <04dracoomega> To be honest, the old AoE knockback effect on fan benefits a ton from evocables just being able to have charges these days, I think. It's a weaker effect than several things, but it doesn't have to compete on a charge-by-charge basis 08:58:20 <06pleasingfungus> can also alternate it with uh 08:58:24 <06pleasingfungus> something 08:58:55 <04dracoomega> Yeah, the alternating system is good, but I do feel that the overall pool now is smaller than is ideal. Er, not that you should see more items per run but rather that the variation between runs could be higher 08:58:58 <04dracoomega> Not that this is trivial, obviously 09:00:12 <06pleasingfungus> down for variety, certainly 09:03:12 <09hellmonk> Bring back lantern of shadows 09:03:13 <04dracoomega> Currently back to working on a couple of those earth spells I mentioned the other day. Several of them are not really suitable to add in at present for various reasons (though the code may have future uses), but a couple I would definitely like to try putting in 09:03:20 <09hellmonk> with charges it might actually work this time 09:03:36 <04dracoomega> And then I have a reaver idea I want to try (re: that momentum strike warper discussion) and then... various minor things and Yred??? 09:04:46 <06pleasingfungus> hype 09:06:52 <06pleasingfungus> evoke for temporary reduced los and summoned shadow the hedgehogs? 09:07:08 <04dracoomega> Seems not unreasonable to me 09:07:15 <04dracoomega> On first brush 09:08:55 <06pleasingfungus> or course, if we add those, we’ll have to add guns, 09:09:32 <04dracoomega> ....funny you should say that given the spell I'm currently tinkering on 09:09:48 <04dracoomega> (I mean, not that a cannon is exactly a gun, but... :P) 09:10:13 <06pleasingfungus> nah, it definitely is 🙂 09:10:21 <06pleasingfungus> also i already added Mule! 09:10:58 <06pleasingfungus> and at some point i’m going to revert or rerework the iron shot replacement 09:11:02 <06pleasingfungus> speaking of Casting Gun 09:12:54 <04dracoomega> I haven't had a chance to try that yet, among various other things. Is the mud it makes not actually sufficiently relevant in practice? 09:13:52 <06pleasingfungus> yeah 09:14:05 <06pleasingfungus> mostly because the move speed effect is quite minor on single tiles 09:14:38 <04dracoomega> What if it made a larger puddle than just the tile the monster was on? 09:14:41 <06pleasingfungus> melee attack reduction is more impactful but usually less relevant in context of iron shot 09:14:42 <06pleasingfungus> it does 09:14:49 <04dracoomega> Oh, hmm. Shows what I know 09:14:57 <04dracoomega> In my defense, I did say I hadn't cast it! 09:15:26 <06pleasingfungus> its design was intentionally meant to be close to iron shot’s and low impact so that existing monsters would be unaffected 09:15:48 <06pleasingfungus> but i should have just made a different player spell and not worried about keeping it functional on monsters 09:16:01 <06pleasingfungus> i switched half of them back to old iron shot anyway for theme reasons :p 09:16:07 <04dracoomega> I saw that bit, yeah 09:17:07 <06pleasingfungus> can imagine another mud splatter spell working somewhere, eg a low level one. the effect on melee attacks is large 09:17:24 <06pleasingfungus> leda’s liqorice is sort of this but it’s not widely loved 09:19:08 <04dracoomega> Leda's Liquefaction was a spell that always felt conceptually cool, but then hard to find on a character where it was good, at a time it would be good. I know Arcane Marksman had it for a while, but I imagine it was hard for them to cast it (and ranged combat was all the more awkward back then) 09:20:36 <04dracoomega> I probably need to try using it more, though 09:21:20 <06pleasingfungus> ebering, defender of unloved spells, will champion it on request 09:21:30 <06pleasingfungus> along with tele other, etc (?) 09:21:43 <04dracoomega> (Old memories suggest that it needed a fair bit of power to actually last long enough to not be half a self-penalty, which makes it harder for a hybrid character to pick up later, but if you're doing full-on earth you maybe also don't want/need it?) 09:21:57 <03semi_tonal> it's haste but in weird spell schools! 09:22:24 <03semi_tonal> along with other unloved haste-but-in-weird-spell-schools classics such as metabolic englaciation 09:22:42 <04dracoomega> I mean, englaciation just seems solid 09:22:52 <06pleasingfungus> think it’s also a lil unloved 09:23:00 <06pleasingfungus> could be wrong 09:23:17 <06pleasingfungus> tele other, liq, englac, intox, gell’s grav 09:24:08 <06pleasingfungus> slow is also sort of unpopular and also haste in weird school; it’s cast more though 09:24:13 <09hellmonk> englac has a similar "need large amounts of power for it to work well" problem 09:24:47 <09hellmonk> Due to the way its duration works 09:27:05 <04dracoomega> I think it tends to be decent in groups with even okay power, and helps not to have a direct penalty to it. (Maybe also I am just more likely to have characters that have moderate amounts of ice than I am earth??) 11:22:43 New branch created: pull/3278 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3278 11:22:43 03DevJac02 {GitHub} 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/3278 * 0.31-a0-658-g798b2f4c97: Fix typo: "It isextremely good for stabbing" 10(25 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/798b2f4c97a1 11:32:08 03DevJac02 {PleasingFungus} 07* 0.31-a0-658-g205ce3f705: Fix typo: "It isextremely good for stabbing" 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/205ce3f7058c 11:50:30 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-658-g205ce3f705 (34) 12:05:39 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-659-gc5a091b79a: Replace tengu EV with more EV 10(2 minutes ago, 10 files, 28+ 33-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c5a091b79aef 12:08:55 <04dracoomega> Huh. I guess I had assumed that this was a replacement for the new flat EV and not also the EV multiplication they get. I guess it's conceptually more interesting, but it kind of feels like a lategame nerf on the whole? 12:09:51 <06pleasingfungus> shrug. like i said, can play with their dodge apts or dex growth or w/e 12:10:07 <06pleasingfungus> don't feel very strongly about it 12:10:33 <06pleasingfungus> just don't think +% EV is an interesting enough mechanic to justify cluttering the A screen with it, if we're giving 'em acrobat 🙂 12:10:47 <04dracoomega> Perhaps 12:57:34 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-659-gc5a091b79a (34) 13:12:15 Odrione (L2 OgBe) Crash caused by signal #6: Aborted (D:2) 13:27:26 <06pleasingfungus> !crashlog Odrione 13:27:28 <04Cerebot> 1. Odrione, XL2 OgBe, T:673 (milestone): http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Odrione/crash-Odrione-20230830-201214.txt 13:27:46 <06pleasingfungus> You have reached level 3! Your experience leads to an increase in your attributes! Increase (S)trength, (I)ntelligence, or (D)exterity? Welcome back, Odrione the Ogre Berserker. Trog says: Kill them all! Press ? for a list of commands and other information. You have reached level 3! Your experience leads to an increase in your attributes! Increase (S)trength, (I)ntelligence, or (D)exterity? Welcome back, Odrione the Ogre 13:27:47 Berserker. Trog says: Kill them all! ... 13:27:47 <06pleasingfungus> erp 14:35:31 <05sastreii> finally Sh has a proper Flux talisman and not a question mark 14:35:31 <05sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1146558843778773093/flux_talisman.png 14:35:32 <05sastreii> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747522859361894521/1146558844034613339/Schermata_2023-08-30_alle_23.31.00.png 14:36:33 <05sastreii> up next the guns. they're kinda challenging to do 14:37:15 <06pleasingfungus> woot re flux talisman 14:37:44 <06pleasingfungus> hm, re guns... if the idea i suggested is challenging, maybe think of another theme or approach 14:37:58 <06pleasingfungus> first rule of game design: if the problem is hard, try to solve an easier problem instead 14:43:18 <05sastreii> It’s hard to make a flintlock gun mixed with a magical wand The outcomes so far are dumb laserguns But i’m studying a design. This can’t be harder to do than a sleepwalking humanoid frog possessed by visions 14:49:12 <06pleasingfungus> lol 14:49:24 <06pleasingfungus> yeah i mean what if we did something alchemical 14:49:49 <06pleasingfungus> like there’s a fuming bottle or cauldron or something at the back of the gun 14:50:19 <06pleasingfungus> or could stay closer to a gun and just do little details for fanciness 14:52:50 <06pleasingfungus> or maybe like it’s an extremely aggressive alembic 14:53:26 <06pleasingfungus> https://propsandbeyond.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Alembic.jpg imagine taking this and lopping off the ceramic ball on the left 14:53:36 <06pleasingfungus> anyway these are all just ideas 14:53:57 <06pleasingfungus> just think it’s fine to brainstorm and do something different if ‘magic flintlock’ is hard 15:05:55 <05sastreii> Absolutely. I’m always open to ideas. Also i need to keep in mind that we need three distinct versions, so the base has to be “upgradable”. We’ll see 15:15:19 <06pleasingfungus> if it seems like too much of a pain, it’s fine - not the end of the world one way or another 15:22:46 <05sastreii> Np, i’ll figure something out, as always:content: 15:24:52 Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.31-a0-659-gc5a091b79a (34) 15:27:46 <03wheals> sextremely good bug 15:44:19 03elliptic02 07* 0.31-a0-660-gd984b8cdd8: Give tengu their acrobat + flight starting at XL 1. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/d984b8cdd826 15:47:28 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-661-g7db66e5c3b: Move tengu acrobatics and flight around (elliptic) 10(77 seconds ago, 7 files, 32+ 12-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/7db66e5c3b7f 15:49:03 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-660-gd984b8cdd8 (34) 16:29:37 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-661-g7db66e5c3b (34) 18:54:43 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.31-a0-662-g684573625c: Fix tengu flight (Bardcore) 10(21 seconds ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/684573625ca9 19:06:03 Unstable branch on crawl.kelbi.org updated to: 0.31-a0-662-g684573625c (34) 20:21:00 03hellmonk02 07[great-magnetic-field] * 0.31-a0-658-gc5aa7e04ea: prompt for early depths entry 10(50 minutes ago, 3 files, 16+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/c5aa7e04ead8 20:21:00 03hellmonk02 07[great-magnetic-field] * 0.31-a0-659-g5da7930c4b: reduce descent sbranches to two 10(18 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/5da7930c4b83 20:21:00 03hellmonk02 07[great-magnetic-field] * 0.31-a0-660-gf365014873: fix a crypt crash 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 3-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/f365014873dd 20:21:00 03hellmonk02 07[great-magnetic-field] * 0.31-a0-661-g48f5bc4dcf: fix a zhor crash 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/48f5bc4dcf9a 20:21:00 03hellmonk02 07[great-magnetic-field] * 0.31-a0-662-gbff701ec86: checkwhite 10(3 minutes ago, 4 files, 6+ 6-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/bff701ec8662 20:22:00 <09hellmonk> @pleasingfungus I think peek might buggily allow monsters to act sometimes, try going up and down a lot of times with monsters in line of sight 20:23:17 <06pleasingfungus> yeah elliptic mentioned that 20:23:19 <06pleasingfungus> very annoying 20:23:25 <09hellmonk> ok cool 20:23:45 <06pleasingfungus> my current bug list is Peek - Other stairs: doesn’t reveal items - Your stairs: does cause shouting Crumbling should erase other stairs from map knowledge 20:24:56 <09hellmonk> also if you have time you can make the sbranch code go in ng-init somewhere where it belongs (I will do this later but didn't have time tonight) 20:33:07 <03implojin> i looked into this a little bit yesterday and there's a bunch of stuff in player_reacts that happens during peek attempts that probably shouldn't 20:33:11 04Build failed for 08great-magnetic-field @ bff701ec 06https://github.com/crawl/crawl/actions/runs/6032648004 20:33:46 <09hellmonk> wonder if we can just return early during peek status 20:33:50 <03implojin> just right now i managed to get xom to do a xom stair slide action during a peek which, uh 20:33:55 <03implojin> it's on brand but probably buggy 20:34:13 <09hellmonk> well if pf doesnt get to it I can try tomorrow 20:34:58 <03implojin> i was wondering if one way to handle it might be to force all stair actions in descent to take 0 time but im not sure if all of the stuff in player_reacts is even setup for that to work 20:35:23 <03implojin> hence the zhor bug 20:36:43 <03implojin> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/great-magnetic-field/crawl-ref/source/player-reacts.cc#L1049 20:36:59 <03implojin> that's the cause of the monsters being awakened thing 20:39:00 <06pleasingfungus> think i’m probably in toddler zone for the rest of to nite 20:39:04 <06pleasingfungus> we’ll see tho 23:50:37 Unstable branch on cbro.berotato.org updated to: 0.31-a0-662-g684573625c (34)